I have almost everything to build this, and I'm fond of creature decks in general. Unfortunately, there is plenty of tron around here. Besides the big thalia, and stony silence in the board (and possibly meddling mage), what can we do about it? Just race them? That does not look like enough unfortunately.
What form of Tron?
Path to Exile is a must for Wurmcoil and in game 2 and 3 sometimes I see a Pyroclasm or Anger. Stony Silence helps slow them down a bit but watch out for All is Dust. The key Ive found is I dont care about Wurmcoil as long as Im holding Path or have another Fiend Hunter/O-Ring/Banisher Priest type card. Thalia's LT is huge to help get the Humans past damage removal. I mainly try to race them game 1. 2 and 3 depends but Stony Silence + some kind of pump or Boros Charm indestructible effect is helps. U Tron sometimes surprises you with a counterspell vs a spell you need like Stony so Cavern of Souls dont help there. Ugin and Karn when they drop really depends on the board/game state. Ghost Quarter is also very helpful.
Beyond Thalia and Stony Silence (really the best cards in this matchup) I can recommend Spreading Seas, Thoughtseize, Ceremonial Rejection, or Negate. Renegade Rallier with Ghost Quarter is also solid. I personally don't like Path against Gx Tron since it misses Karn / Ugin / O-Stone but it's not the worst card to have in that matchup. Definitely good against E-Tron.
This deck is great for aggro purposes but fizzles out incredibly quickly. I dont't end up playing with it very often because it's just not very fun to play with. I'm wondering if there is another direction I can take it in with a few changes or upgrades. I'm not really into paying $20 for cards either, just FYI.
Kytheon x2-3 is surely better than Vanguards. Without a splash or a true 2-color version, you won't improve your list much though. Red gives the deck slightly fastest kills and is strictly better imho, because you play better (filler) cards. If you don't want to invest at least in dual lands, you better play Pauper, it's a great format !
Beyond Thalia and Stony Silence (really the best cards in this matchup) I can recommend Spreading Seas, Thoughtseize, Ceremonial Rejection, or Negate
Mana Leak is also perfectly fine. If the human list has tempo advantages like hasty creatures, Lyev S. or Meddling M., it's easier to race them. If not, like the GW or abzan lists, well those lists are slow and too fair, and basically the MU gets way harder the same way Abzan decks struggle fighting Tron anyway (Pod & Counters Coco, outside of a combo ; BGx midrange).
I see this as a multi-dimensional aggro deck with some built-in resilience and tempo advantages. Post-side, the hate is real, with minimal deviation from the core strategy.
I only like including Avacyn's Pilgrim when running GW(u) since there's space in the manabase for Gavony Township and Horizon Canopy to ease the risk of over-ramping. I would cut the Pilgrims and a 3-drop to fill in your Brawlers and Thalia GoTs for this list.
I didn't get the impression that it was weak to burn. He was just quite unfortunate. Game 1 he went second in the kind of matchup where who goes first is a huge decider and the game ended up losing by exactly 1 turn.
In game 2, he managed to win with a 5 card hand. His opponent flooded, but the still only played 2 lands (the number of cards that he was down by at the start) over their ideal number.
In game 3 he got stuck on 2 lands.
The deck seemed fine against burn, the result just seemed to be a case of a fairly even matchup + the variance inherent to MTG.
Even with the recent success of the 4.5 c list Humans are at ~1.7% of the metagame, which is solidly "Tier 3" range. However, I suspect that there's some bandwagoning to this as different pros give it a try. I'm not sure how many will stick with the deck, though, and I'd be a little surprised to see these results continue to grow. We'll see! You could maybe make a case for it to be moved over to "Developing Competitive", I guess. /shrug
I've been meaning to watch Wescoes gameplay videos of the 4.5 c list. The only thing I don't understand is why anyone is running Izzet Staticaster with 6 red sources -- it is a high-payoff card in certain matchups, banking off of 6 mana sources or a lucky CoCo seems too unreliable to build around. That, along with a few other choices, make me question whether this list is actually optimized or if people are just copy-pasta-ing it verbatim because it's placed in a couple events.
The 8x dorks are a lot and I experienced diminishing returns beyond 6x. They have been useful to hit 5 mana for CoCo while Thalia GoT is on the board, and easing that tension between Thalia and CoCo is more valuable than you'd think (as an aside I have remained in the Pro-Thalia camp for the last several months, and have become an even bigger fan as Storm has become more popular). They also enable more frequent play of T2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar and T2 Sin Collector, both of which are significantly better T2 than they are T3, and landing these cards on T2 might have a lot to do with why this particular variant has been successful. It's also interesting that the most successful list so far eschews flyers / ignores the evasion issue and focuses on hatebears and interaction. It's possible that we have been trying to solve the wrong problem, or not playing to the archetype's strengths well enough... or, again, we may just be looking at bandwagoning of an unoptomized list. I will try to get some games in with it and report back.
The deck has been doing so well recently that it should be promoted to "Tier 2" imho.
It has a long way to run before it even gets taken seriously online... Sin Collector in the main is btw a very good example of something going wrong with the deck in its core. It's an awful Spell Queller, but the deck apparently needs it to shore up some MUs where its SB options aren't even enough to keep up.
I wonder if a card like Arashin Cleric can help here
The deck seemed fine against burn, the result just seemed to be a case of a fairly even matchup + the variance inherent to MTG.
This specific MD is ok thanks to Thalia V1 and Sin Col. But the archetype struggles against a natural T1 creature into Searing B on our best creature. That's why there's so much Burn hate in the human SBs.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
It has a similar meta share to "Bant Knightfall" and "UW Control" which somehow ended up in Tier 2 so I don't know...
Against which decks would you rather have Sin Collector pre-board over something like Kambal for instance ?
It seems a bit slower against fast combo or Burn.
Against which decks would you rather have Sin Collector pre-board over something like Kambal for instance ?
Well, the obvious answer to that is Valakut decks. Unless you manage to get 2 lands + a mana generator, by turn 3 you're probably looking at them needing 1/2 spells before they can kill with Through the Breach or Scapeshift. The other obvious answer is decks that mainboard sweepers like Blue-White Control, Jeskai Control, and RG Breach.
Humans has always been a fun build since the RTR block in Standard. Until it puts up better results in the big events or we get a major can changer card or a few more better cards it will stay as a tier 3....maybe we can get it to tier 2 in the mean time.
As for better cards maybe a 2 drop WW Banisher Priest/Fiend Hunter. A 1 drop W version Wild Nacatl. Or a 3 drop WWW 4/4 Flying, Hexproof, Haste, Lifelink, Protection from all colors, ELdrazi and Artifacts Super InHuman
It has a similar meta share to "Bant Knightfall" and "UW Control" which somehow ended up in Tier 2 so I don't know...
Not over the same period of time. Knightfall has put up erratic results since Retreat has been available. Humans are somewhat popular right now because of forums, articles, and other whatever reasons. And no human shell looks like one another.
Against which decks would you rather have Sin Collector pre-board over something like Kambal for instance ?
It seems a bit slower against fast combo or Burn.
Kambal is only good against Burn and "stormish" combos. Collector strips Coco and Chord, Traverse, wraths, etc... The choice of one card over another is pretty obvious actually.
Glory-Bound is pretty bad as well and Lantern Scout is rather situational so Auriok Champion is probably the best option.
Initiate is as debated as Lyev Skyknight but both cards are good in the aggro perspective. I can even tell you Initiate is better than Auriok Champ when you want to be aggro. Don't say a card is bad if you never tested it, it's exhausting over time, and it leads readers to misinformation.
In the Burn MU, lifegain has to happen once in order to win against them, or the build has to be naturally set up to fight it. HOWEVER, you also need a clock, otherwise you keep being unfavored as turns pass. A CLOCK, which Initiate provides but Auriok Champ and Cleric don't. Scout provides it and is the biggest life swing we can set up in a game. Without a clock, the instant 3 life from Cleric won't do the job.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Well, I decided to do what a lot of people seem to be hesitant to do just to see what happened - I cut both of the legendary Thalia's from my 75; removed some weak creatures for what are just stronger cards in the format right now, in my opinion; decided to run a fairly minimal amount of creatures for a CoCo list; added more interaction. Results so far? Higher winning percentage. I'll go over my decisions for certain cards after the list. I still haven't found a consistent way to beat Tron variants without bending over backwards, but I'm fine having a bad matchup or two across a format as diverse as modern. I'd rather shut the door on decks we can actually beat consistently. My current Abzan list:
I was worried that dropping down to 25 creatures might hurt my CoCos too much, but I don't think that is the case. After reading up on some of Frank Karsten's fine work, 25 seems to be slightly above the lowest threshold of consistent payoff (being around 23), and my experience to date reflects this. 25 is enough, albeit just. Keep in mind this is not built to be an aggro list. It is a midrange list that is capable of aggressive starts.
Hey, Bobby: I know he doesn't attack well. I know he's a target. I also know Dark Confidant is a better Magic card than any other two drop available, especially since I've slowed the deck down a turn or two in favor of good disruption. Card advantage in Modern can still pay off.
Speaking of good disruption, Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize are the best at what they do and interact with pretty much every deck in the format. Quite a bit of human-based disruption is fairly narrow, and with the inclusion of Bob to play on turn 2, these are where I want to be in modern right now. Couple that with the fact Humans can close games reasonably fast helps too.
One of the original reasons I decided to try Abzan was that it irritated me that I felt Path to Exile and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben were both necessary in G/W, and I really disliked the "tax the mana/give them a land" plan. Fatal Push seemed to be the one-mana removal I had been waiting for, something to pair with Thalia that wasn't a straight "nonbo"! One problem still existed, however: Collected Company. I know CoCo is where I want to be in modern humans right now, without a doubt, but being stuck on 4 mana and not being able to cast CoCo has happened one too many times. Thalia went from 3 copies... to 2... to 1... and now is just not worth the spot to me. With the discard and sideboard options, the disruption is still there, just in a different form. Fatal Push, now not as necessary due to Thalia being removed from the deck, has once again reverted back to Path to Exile. With the uptick in Eldrazi and Wurmcoil Engine, plus Grixis DS standouts Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Path is back to being my removal of choice. I want to be able to interact with what my opponent is doing.
4 Mirran Crusader: I don't want my opponent to be able to interact with what I am doing. With the downswing of Path and Lightning Bolt, the inclusion of the often must-kill Bob, and discard, this dude generally sticks around for a bit. He holds buff counters quite well. He also closes games very, very rapidly.
2 Scavenging Ooze: Yeah, not a human. Wish it were. I mean, if Experiment One can be a human ooze... I wanted a way to interact with the graveyard game one due to Dredge and Living End both being difficult (but winnable) matchups, and was also in the market for incidental lifegain because Bob. Not much else can do both on a card that can be hit with CoCo, and after all, every human deserves a good pet. Side note: I tried Grim Flayer in this spot because I like the card and I am running six MD sorceries and seven instants. As you can imagine, it definitely wasn't enough to reliably turn on delirium. Darn.
I am trying out a split between Gavony Township and Vault of the Archangel. I know GT is good, but I'm not sure yet if this deck can support more than one colorless land when I'm trying to "cheat" at 22 lands. I suspect two might be one too many, and if it is, Township gets the nod over Vault. I do like Vault as lifegain, and deathtouch with Mirran Crusader is pretty legit, but I don't think it'll be enough to stick around in the deck. If I decide to go back to the 3/2 split on Thalia, GoT and Thalia, Heretic Cathar, I'm a bit more interested in this. Mayor of Avabruck has been consistently underwhelming, hence the exclusion. The lack of Cavern of Souls is due to having more one-mana noncreature spells. Fastlands are better here in my opinion. It is certainly reasonable to think that Vault of the Archangel could be replaced by a Cavern, however.
I was going to do at least a partial sideboarding guide for this deck, but that will have to wait... it's late and modern is a pretty big format. I know I might be horribly wrong with some choices (Champion + Bob + discard + CoCo? Am I a madman?), but so far this feels just a bit more powerful than any of the other humans lists I have tried. Thank you in advance for any feedback, and don't be afraid to push the "accepted norm". That is how scientific progress happens (and sometimes goes 'boink').
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What form of Tron?
Path to Exile is a must for Wurmcoil and in game 2 and 3 sometimes I see a Pyroclasm or Anger. Stony Silence helps slow them down a bit but watch out for All is Dust. The key Ive found is I dont care about Wurmcoil as long as Im holding Path or have another Fiend Hunter/O-Ring/Banisher Priest type card. Thalia's LT is huge to help get the Humans past damage removal. I mainly try to race them game 1. 2 and 3 depends but Stony Silence + some kind of pump or Boros Charm indestructible effect is helps. U Tron sometimes surprises you with a counterspell vs a spell you need like Stony so Cavern of Souls dont help there. Ugin and Karn when they drop really depends on the board/game state. Ghost Quarter is also very helpful.
I am essentially running the deck from this budget magic article posted by SaffronOlive:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/budget-magic-93-20-tix-mono-white-humans-modern
The only difference is that I replaced 1 Honor of the Pure with Always Watching for vigilance.
This deck is great for aggro purposes but fizzles out incredibly quickly. I dont't end up playing with it very often because it's just not very fun to play with. I'm wondering if there is another direction I can take it in with a few changes or upgrades. I'm not really into paying $20 for cards either, just FYI.
Thank you in advance!!
Mana Leak is also perfectly fine. If the human list has tempo advantages like hasty creatures, Lyev S. or Meddling M., it's easier to race them. If not, like the GW or abzan lists, well those lists are slow and too fair, and basically the MU gets way harder the same way Abzan decks struggle fighting Tron anyway (Pod & Counters Coco, outside of a combo ; BGx midrange).
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Voltaic Brawler
1 Meddling Mage
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mantis Rider
3 Reflector Mage
2 Hanweir Garrison
1 Combat Celebrant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Path to Exile
3 Meddling Mage
3 Rest In Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Vithian Renegades
1 Harsh Mentor
I see this as a multi-dimensional aggro deck with some built-in resilience and tempo advantages. Post-side, the hate is real, with minimal deviation from the core strategy.
Any thoughts?
Admittedly I haven't done much playtesting with this, but fewer mana dorks + a playset of Thalia, GoT = much slower CoCos.
What do you think of -2 Pilgrim, -1 Celebrant for +2 Brawler, +1 Thalia?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-wubrg-37020
This 5-Color build is really taking off online, we might finally have a Tier 3 (not far from Tier 2) Humans deck in Modern.
I still think that Sin Collector should be a SB card though.
Knight of the Reliquary, Renegade Rallier, Tireless Tracker or Eternal Witness would be better maindeck options imho.
The deck does seem rather weak to Burn as evidenced here - http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35263_Video-Daily-Digest-A-Truly-Human-Company.html
I wonder if a card like Arashin Cleric can help here
(there is also Auriok Champion but it might be too slow, especially if they don't play creatures and just cast burn spells).
I didn't get the impression that it was weak to burn. He was just quite unfortunate. Game 1 he went second in the kind of matchup where who goes first is a huge decider and the game ended up losing by exactly 1 turn.
In game 2, he managed to win with a 5 card hand. His opponent flooded, but the still only played 2 lands (the number of cards that he was down by at the start) over their ideal number.
In game 3 he got stuck on 2 lands.
The deck seemed fine against burn, the result just seemed to be a case of a fairly even matchup + the variance inherent to MTG.
I've been meaning to watch Wescoes gameplay videos of the 4.5 c list. The only thing I don't understand is why anyone is running Izzet Staticaster with 6 red sources -- it is a high-payoff card in certain matchups, banking off of 6 mana sources or a lucky CoCo seems too unreliable to build around. That, along with a few other choices, make me question whether this list is actually optimized or if people are just copy-pasta-ing it verbatim because it's placed in a couple events.
The 8x dorks are a lot and I experienced diminishing returns beyond 6x. They have been useful to hit 5 mana for CoCo while Thalia GoT is on the board, and easing that tension between Thalia and CoCo is more valuable than you'd think (as an aside I have remained in the Pro-Thalia camp for the last several months, and have become an even bigger fan as Storm has become more popular). They also enable more frequent play of T2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar and T2 Sin Collector, both of which are significantly better T2 than they are T3, and landing these cards on T2 might have a lot to do with why this particular variant has been successful. It's also interesting that the most successful list so far eschews flyers / ignores the evasion issue and focuses on hatebears and interaction. It's possible that we have been trying to solve the wrong problem, or not playing to the archetype's strengths well enough... or, again, we may just be looking at bandwagoning of an unoptomized list. I will try to get some games in with it and report back.
It has a long way to run before it even gets taken seriously online... Sin Collector in the main is btw a very good example of something going wrong with the deck in its core. It's an awful Spell Queller, but the deck apparently needs it to shore up some MUs where its SB options aren't even enough to keep up.
It's one of the most underwhelming options for the deck. Glory-Bound Initiate, Auriok Champion and Lantern Scout are still the best humans for that purpose. Fiendslayer Paladin is meh against Swiftspear unfortunately. Blessed Alliance is ok as a non-creature option.
This specific MD is ok thanks to Thalia V1 and Sin Col. But the archetype struggles against a natural T1 creature into Searing B on our best creature. That's why there's so much Burn hate in the human SBs.
Against which decks would you rather have Sin Collector pre-board over something like Kambal for instance ?
It seems a bit slower against fast combo or Burn.
Arashin Cleric is probably bad but I was looking for a human that gains life upon EtB (like Lone Missionary) and he is the best/cheapest I've found.
Glory-Bound is pretty bad as well and Lantern Scout is rather situational so Auriok Champion is probably the best option.
Well, the obvious answer to that is Valakut decks. Unless you manage to get 2 lands + a mana generator, by turn 3 you're probably looking at them needing 1/2 spells before they can kill with Through the Breach or Scapeshift. The other obvious answer is decks that mainboard sweepers like Blue-White Control, Jeskai Control, and RG Breach.
As for better cards maybe a 2 drop W W Banisher Priest/Fiend Hunter. A 1 drop W version Wild Nacatl. Or a 3 drop W W W 4/4 Flying, Hexproof, Haste, Lifelink, Protection from all colors, ELdrazi and Artifacts Super InHuman
Not over the same period of time. Knightfall has put up erratic results since Retreat has been available. Humans are somewhat popular right now because of forums, articles, and other whatever reasons. And no human shell looks like one another.
Kambal is only good against Burn and "stormish" combos. Collector strips Coco and Chord, Traverse, wraths, etc... The choice of one card over another is pretty obvious actually.
Initiate is as debated as Lyev Skyknight but both cards are good in the aggro perspective. I can even tell you Initiate is better than Auriok Champ when you want to be aggro. Don't say a card is bad if you never tested it, it's exhausting over time, and it leads readers to misinformation.
In the Burn MU, lifegain has to happen once in order to win against them, or the build has to be naturally set up to fight it. HOWEVER, you also need a clock, otherwise you keep being unfavored as turns pass. A CLOCK, which Initiate provides but Auriok Champ and Cleric don't. Scout provides it and is the biggest life swing we can set up in a game. Without a clock, the instant 3 life from Cleric won't do the job.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Eternal Witness
4 Mirran Crusader
Spells
3 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Collected Company
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Concealed Courtyard
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sin Collector
1 Collective Brutality
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
I was worried that dropping down to 25 creatures might hurt my CoCos too much, but I don't think that is the case. After reading up on some of Frank Karsten's fine work, 25 seems to be slightly above the lowest threshold of consistent payoff (being around 23), and my experience to date reflects this. 25 is enough, albeit just. Keep in mind this is not built to be an aggro list. It is a midrange list that is capable of aggressive starts.
Hey, Bobby: I know he doesn't attack well. I know he's a target. I also know Dark Confidant is a better Magic card than any other two drop available, especially since I've slowed the deck down a turn or two in favor of good disruption. Card advantage in Modern can still pay off.
Speaking of good disruption, Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize are the best at what they do and interact with pretty much every deck in the format. Quite a bit of human-based disruption is fairly narrow, and with the inclusion of Bob to play on turn 2, these are where I want to be in modern right now. Couple that with the fact Humans can close games reasonably fast helps too.
One of the original reasons I decided to try Abzan was that it irritated me that I felt Path to Exile and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben were both necessary in G/W, and I really disliked the "tax the mana/give them a land" plan. Fatal Push seemed to be the one-mana removal I had been waiting for, something to pair with Thalia that wasn't a straight "nonbo"! One problem still existed, however: Collected Company. I know CoCo is where I want to be in modern humans right now, without a doubt, but being stuck on 4 mana and not being able to cast CoCo has happened one too many times. Thalia went from 3 copies... to 2... to 1... and now is just not worth the spot to me. With the discard and sideboard options, the disruption is still there, just in a different form. Fatal Push, now not as necessary due to Thalia being removed from the deck, has once again reverted back to Path to Exile. With the uptick in Eldrazi and Wurmcoil Engine, plus Grixis DS standouts Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Path is back to being my removal of choice. I want to be able to interact with what my opponent is doing.
4 Mirran Crusader: I don't want my opponent to be able to interact with what I am doing. With the downswing of Path and Lightning Bolt, the inclusion of the often must-kill Bob, and discard, this dude generally sticks around for a bit. He holds buff counters quite well. He also closes games very, very rapidly.
2 Scavenging Ooze: Yeah, not a human. Wish it were. I mean, if Experiment One can be a human ooze... I wanted a way to interact with the graveyard game one due to Dredge and Living End both being difficult (but winnable) matchups, and was also in the market for incidental lifegain because Bob. Not much else can do both on a card that can be hit with CoCo, and after all, every human deserves a good pet. Side note: I tried Grim Flayer in this spot because I like the card and I am running six MD sorceries and seven instants. As you can imagine, it definitely wasn't enough to reliably turn on delirium. Darn.
I am trying out a split between Gavony Township and Vault of the Archangel. I know GT is good, but I'm not sure yet if this deck can support more than one colorless land when I'm trying to "cheat" at 22 lands. I suspect two might be one too many, and if it is, Township gets the nod over Vault. I do like Vault as lifegain, and deathtouch with Mirran Crusader is pretty legit, but I don't think it'll be enough to stick around in the deck. If I decide to go back to the 3/2 split on Thalia, GoT and Thalia, Heretic Cathar, I'm a bit more interested in this.
Mayor of Avabruck has been consistently underwhelming, hence the exclusion. The lack of Cavern of Souls is due to having more one-mana noncreature spells. Fastlands are better here in my opinion. It is certainly reasonable to think that Vault of the Archangel could be replaced by a Cavern, however.
I was going to do at least a partial sideboarding guide for this deck, but that will have to wait... it's late and modern is a pretty big format. I know I might be horribly wrong with some choices (Champion + Bob + discard + CoCo? Am I a madman?), but so far this feels just a bit more powerful than any of the other humans lists I have tried. Thank you in advance for any feedback, and don't be afraid to push the "accepted norm". That is how scientific progress happens (and sometimes goes 'boink').