The way I see it, a shaman deck that chooses to run the vizier combo does not need to run any other wincon other than a singleton duskwatch recruiter and a singleton walking ballista. Once you have your combo set up and draw a chord you win, if u havent already got an ezuri on the board. You could run this combo without sacrificing any of the elf core save a visionary and perhaps a shaman.
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I am unsure of the exact count of Vizier of Remedies, Duskwatch Recruiter, Walking Ballista, Dwynen's Elite, and Elvish Visionary. I am not sure if I should go to 2 Duskwatch Recruiter and zero Walking Ballista.
I would like to fit some lifegain in the sideboard as well. I am not sure where I can side in Essence Warden or Kitchen Finks. I know the irreplaceable cards are Eidolon of Rhetoric, 3 Rest in Peace, 1 Reclamation Sage. I think I could go down to 1 Burrenton Forge-Tender and 1 Selfless Spirit, but I am not sure of what to get rid of to get the second Kitchen Finks. I am thinking Fracturing Gust and hope to dodge or go faster than affinity and bogles.
Hey guys. I used to play company elves before I got into standard with friends but now I'm back with interest in Modern GP Vegas. I'm using this deck from Copenhagen as the starting point.
I really liked the 'oops I win' aspect to this list with the one of Vizier. After reading this forums' recent discussion on Vizier, I agree with Pokken that 1-2 Vizier are the right numbers.
These are some changes that I'm thinking about making down the line.
+1 Vizier / -1 Nettle
I suspect that I might need to run 2 Vizier because of how popular Death's Shadow is. It would be a waste of slots to run 4 Devoted Druid and have your only Vizier discarded right off the bat. Nettle seems like the most flexible slot.
-1 ezuri / +1 duskwatch
Duskwatch gives us another mana sink, its ability synergizes so well with our deck, having multiple legendaries in hand feels bad, and I get some game against grindy decks.
-1 Selfless / +1 Rhonas
It's another win-con, mana sink, and it's resilient against non-white removal heavy decks. Spirit seems like the easiest cut because Rhonas would be boarded in against the same decks spirit goes in.
I welcome any opinion on these changes I'm thinking about. Thanks for reading.
I'm looking to build elves but I have some questions about my mana base. I want to run the SOTP build but with lead the stampede instead of Chord, but I also want to have access to white silver bullets in the sideboard. I will have chords in the sideboard for games 2 and 3 if needed. Will this mana base get me there? Or do I need fetches and shocks?
Martin Juza's list seems like that's where we want to be though he could have just been a good pilot. I think your reaffirmation of 2 Devoted Druids was the final nail on the coffin. I'll continue to playtest with that change.
I've never been impressed with Essence warden but I know people have had results with it. Imo Kitchen Finks just gives us so much value against burn. Only way it feels bad is if it gets pathed.
Perhaps you're right about Rhonas. He gets increasingly weaker with low numbers of 2-power creatures. If I choose to run 4 Nettle, I'll have 16 2-power creatures between Nettle, Dwynen's, Archdruid, and Ezuri. With half of my creatures requiring only one pump, it doesn't seem so bad but I'll hold off on this change for now. Afterall, I really like the 2 selfless on the side.
I've been keeping an eye on discussions about Throne lists but I feel that it'll be too slow for the majority of the meta. As for a straight GB list, I'm not denying that there's strength in it but I think not playing Devoted combo is a missed opportunity. Also, Juza's list runs 4 paths in the side which I'm looking forward to testing against Death's Shadow.
I think what I need the most clarification on is how to sideboard properly with this deck.
I'm looking to build elves but I have some questions about my mana base. I want to run the SOTP build but with lead the stampede instead of Chord, but I also want to have access to white silver bullets in the sideboard. I will have chords in the sideboard for games 2 and 3 if needed. Will this mana base get me there? Or do I need fetches and shocks?
Fetches and shocks for a 3 color mana base imo, otherwise you'll have consistency issues with just playing your regular spells on time. I run the following land base in my abzan builds:
I usually run 19 lands because I treat westvale like a spell. So that gives me 18 untapped green sources t1, 12 black sources for SotP, 4 white sources for spells (which I don't run white spells so that's fine) or 8 white sources for creatures (including caverns). I run a chord/coco build with a Selfless Spirit in the main since there have been lots of angers floating around my LGS.
Again I have 19 lands, with 18 untapped green sources on turn 1, 9 black sources to hard cast shaman of the pack, 12 sources to hard cast blue elves (8 blue sources if I need to cast a counter). I'm not super impressed but without 4 essence warden a more consistent base becomes too painful I think. I'm trying to shift black to my tertiary color, but I need more untapped blue sources so I can bring in a more robust counter suite.
"Fetches and shocks for a 3 color mana base imo, otherwise you'll have consistency issues with just playing your regular spells on time. I run the following land base in my abzan builds...So that gives me 18 untapped green sources t1, 12 black sources for SotP, 4 white sources for spells (which I don't run white spells so that's fine) or 8 white sources for creatures (including caverns). I run a chord/coco build with a Selfless Spirit in the main since there have been lots of angers floating around my LGS."
Thanks, but I'm a little confused. Your mana base has the exact same number of black and white sources as mine. I have 18 green untapped, 12 black (4x marsh, cavern, and palace) and 4/8 white (4x canopy + 4x cavern). I also don't plan on using white spells, only creatures to play with either white sources, chord, or coco in games 2/3.
I understand fetches give you more flexibility to choose between temple garden and overgrown tomb, but running 4 forests and 1 pendelhaven make the odds of us having the right mana the same probabilities. Or am I wrong with my math?
I actually, I ran Abzan (currently testing GB again), and I never had problems casting my silver bullet cards. Even ran Stony Silence and RIP in the side for a while. The manabase is on the primer, "pinned" post.
EDIT: here
Lands (18):
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
"Fetches and shocks for a 3 color mana base imo, otherwise you'll have consistency issues with just playing your regular spells on time. I run the following land base in my abzan builds...So that gives me 18 untapped green sources t1, 12 black sources for SotP, 4 white sources for spells (which I don't run white spells so that's fine) or 8 white sources for creatures (including caverns). I run a chord/coco build with a Selfless Spirit in the main since there have been lots of angers floating around my LGS."
Thanks, but I'm a little confused. Your mana base has the exact same number of black and white sources as mine. I have 18 green untapped, 12 black (4x marsh, cavern, and palace) and 4/8 white (4x canopy + 4x cavern). I also don't plan on using white spells, only creatures to play with either white sources, chord, or coco in games 2/3.
I understand fetches give you more flexibility to choose between temple garden and overgrown tomb, but running 4 forests and 1 pendelhaven make the odds of us having the right mana the same probabilities. Or am I wrong with my math?
All of my sources enter untapped for a 4th land coco. The marshes may end up biting you since 4/18 or 4/19 (which is significant enough to matter I think?) of your mana base will enter tapped for the crucial 4th land when you need to get back into a game off a coco. When I'm messing with a mana base, the main things I look for are:
Does everything enter untapped for G turn 1 for at least my first 18 lands. Nykthos and Westvale are fine, but I only run them above the base 18 and treat them as spell slots because really they only matter for a t2 Dwynen's Elite.
Next is how likely am I going to cast my finishers. I really just want like 9+ sources to make sure my secondary color creatures don't rot in my hand too often. Ideally this should be higher, and a more painful mana base will allow for such, but I think it would force us to run more essence wardens to deal with Eidolon of the great revel better in that case.
My 3rd color I usually shoot for 7ish and run my answers as creatures (cavern is my tri land here). I think strict GB or GW are better if you plan on running a spell suite in the side. I only like 3 colors when it's silver bullets in the form of a creature (like selfless spirit).
So no LAWS OF PLAYING MANA or anything like that, but this is a formula that has proven very good to me. I rarely get mana screwed on color when playing abzan elves with an appropriate mana base. The mana base I listed is also very similar to alot of lists that are floating around. Also, with such a low land count, a few fetches can really go a long way when you KNOW your out is a creature you've coco'd to the bottom already. Deck thinning while negligible is still a thing that I view as a positive in our deck since burn feels like a solid matchup to me the 1 life is an easy price to pay.
Ok cool thanks. I tried my mana base tonight for the first time and didn't have any issues, but I played against mostly jund and control so I didn't need many white sideboard cards. Went 3-1 and drew in the last game since my LGS pays everyone in top8 the same amount
Ok cool thanks. I tried my mana base tonight for the first time and didn't have any issues, but I played against mostly jund and control so I didn't need many white sideboard cards. Went 3-1 and drew in the last game since my LGS pays everyone in top8 the same amount
Awesome, congrats on the finish! Sounds like a meta that I'm happy to not play against :).
Played in a 18 person FNM - cut to 4 rounds. Went with GW Elves. (haven't tested the Black version, as I sold my Gilt-Leaf Palaces when they spiked to $15 to CFB for $10 and haven't wanted to buy them since)
Round 1 vs. UW Control. I loaned out 1 deck today to my friend's brother and I face him in round 1. We played a bunch before the tournament and I won with Elves quite a bit. Game 1, I play a lot of Elves, regenerated with Ezuri and won. In the next game, I do Chord for Selfless Spirit and give indestructible in response to a Supreme Verdict. Then, I go all in from there, lose some Elves to Supreme Verdict and then put a few Elves into double Collected Company to his no answers or gas. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Eldrazi Tron. After a mull to 6, I keep on 2 land. Llanowar Elves into Elvish Archdruid, but the Archdruid gets Dismembered. I don't find another and get exactly 1 Heritage Druid off Collected Company after he put a Rachet Bomb on 1. I cannot find another land and get stuck with 3 Chord of Calling, dying to Reality Smasher and a Matter Reshaper. I keep a 2 land hand in this one as well. This one goes longer, but he plays an Endbringer into Walking Ballista. He slowly machine guns my board of 1/1s. I am stuck with 3 Chord of Calling, 1 Collected Company, and 1 Elvish Archdruid in hand. What a way to die! I drew 2 Path to Exile and Reclamation Sage, which were the ultimate slaps in the face while his Endbringer and Ballista killed me. 0-2.
Round 3 vs. Merfolk. I am happy to see a guy who played Merfolk the last time I played him. I do Elf things in the first game, turn 2 Heritage Druid into Elvish Archdruid and it's easy from there. In the next game, he got me with a timely Echoing Truth on my double Archdruid. I thought I was good after we traded my Nettle Sentinel for a Lord early, but the Truth and double Lord into Master of Waves ended me. I hadn't even sided in Path to Exile. The last game is similar to both of these games, but with no pressure, his Echoing Truth and Vapor Snag don't do much but prevent Ezuri from killing him. He doesn't have gas, with only Harbinger of Tides and Mutavault on the field and my Ezuri keeps trying for lethal until he gets it. 2-1.
Round 4 vs. UW Control. I do Elf things and regenerate with Ezuri. I get there. In the next game, I lose to 3 Path to Exile, 3 Supreme Verdict, and 2 Ancestral Vision. I just don't have any more gas, especially after a Collected Company hits 1 Elvish Visionary and another is Dispelled. He actually got the Crucible of Worlds/Ghost Quarter lock on me, sticking me with 2 lands after I fail to find another land. But it gets me excited that he kept in Crucible vs. me. In the final game, I attack a Jace, Architect of Thought after a Supreme Verdict had hit me. I kill it, but he is at a low life total. He actually made a mistake on the 2nd to last turn, doing another Supreme Verdict with Ezuri in play. I regenerate and swing for lethal. He also had Path to Exile, but I would have put a regeneration shield on my creatures anyway in response to Path to Exile on Ezuri. I had it planned out already when I imagined his outs. 2-1.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
You could include 4 Razorverge Thicket, 2 Horizon Canopy, 2 Windswept Heath, 1 Temple Garden, and one colorless utility land (such as Nykthos or Westvale Abbey). Not sure what you have to work with. I personally advocate 4 Canopies as they offer value in the late game, but understand that they are expensive.
Do any of you plan on going to the Modern Grand Prix in Las Vegas? I am curious about how you feel about the deck.
I am mainly a Grishoalbrand player, but I don't think it's particularly well situated vs. Death's Shadow. It's certainly not the worst, but it is unfavorable. I feel like Elves is much better vs. Grixis Shadow and have been testing it to be around 60/40. I also considered Dredge, but I don't want to face the hordes of grave hate. Not to mention, I have run a lot of grave based decks and I've gotten tired of seeing all the hate (similar to how Affinity players are tired of Stony Silence). Do you think there will be a lot of hate for Elves? Grafdigger's Cage is rough, so I'm considering putting in an extra artifact/enchantment destruction creature. But it may not help because usually you are Chording for it.
Also, I have a bit of a tough time playing Elves. I often don't go all-in when leaving the few creatures in my hand won't allow me to rebuild anyway. I think I need more help being aggressive. I wish I could watch some good GW Elves' players in action!
How do you think it is in this meta? From the above tournament report by me, I noticed that E Tron can be a problem when they are landing Walking Ballistas.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Do any of you plan on going to the Modern Grand Prix in Las Vegas? I am curious about how you feel about the deck.
I am mainly a Grishoalbrand player, but I don't think it's particularly well situated vs. Death's Shadow. It's certainly not the worst, but it is unfavorable. I feel like Elves is much better vs. Grixis Shadow and have been testing it to be around 60/40. I also considered Dredge, but I don't want to face the hordes of grave hate. Not to mention, I have run a lot of grave based decks and I've gotten tired of seeing all the hate (similar to how Affinity players are tired of Stony Silence). Do you think there will be a lot of hate for Elves? Grafdigger's Cage is rough, so I'm considering putting in an extra artifact/enchantment destruction creature. But it may not help because usually you are Chording for it.
I do not agree with you.
In my experience GW elves with devoted druid is not well placed against Death's shadow decks, especially the grixis version.
Up to me our strongest cards against a deck that spends a lot of his life are shaman of the pack and throne of the god-pharaoh (and also the new Nissa) and the GW version does not play anyone of them.
However I do not believe that, even tha abzan version, is 60-40 against grixis Death's shadow. The match is very close and if the opponent has a very oppressive hand it is very hard to win. I would say 55-45 against Jund Death's shadow and 50-50 against grixis version.
About the side of the other decks against us, I do not believe that you'll find a dedicate hate against us.
The problem can be represented from the fact that, because dredge is popping up again, cards as anger of the gods will be in the sideboard of an increasing number of decks. Take care of this if your opponent plays red
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
So I would like to pose a question to everyone out there who is trying GB throne, or GW vizier versions. What matchups are the thrones or viziers helping in, and what matchups do their additions hurt the deck the most?
With the BG version, have you guys ever thought about playing a copy of Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord? Even if Collected Company doesn't fetch it, I think that one copy of that card might be useful. It can be used to fire some damage at the opponent when the board is full of creatures and it's hard to attack. Against creatureless decks, it becomes big after a mass removal like Damnation. The problem about that is: not profitable if the board is hit by Anger of the Gods.
Am I just insane? Should I just quit Modern and go straight to EDH? You answer that.
Also, Primal Command along with Jarad against decks like Burn seems so powerful. Maybe in the sideboard?
With the BG version, have you guys ever thought about playing a copy of Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord? Even if Collected Company doesn't fetch it, I think that one copy of that card might be useful. It can be used to fire some damage at the opponent when the board is full of creatures and it's hard to attack. Against creatureless decks, it becomes big after a mass removal like Damnation. The problem about that is: not profitable if the board is hit by Anger of the Gods.
Am I just insane? Should I just quit Modern and go straight to EDH? You answer that.
Also, Primal Command along with Jarad against decks like Burn seems so powerful. Maybe in the sideboard?
It can be a budget option to something, anyway.
There was a point in time where I was searching gatherer for 4 cmc elves, because I was experimenting with Eldritch Evolution and what I could potentially pull at 4 cmc that would make it worthwhile.
Jarad didn't make the cut because:
1. Double B - in a nonzero number of games you will be stuck without enough B to cast it.
2. Lack of Value - Jarad has the same issue as Dwynen; no ETB ability. Meaning for 4 cmc, he has no value if removed immediately. To be worth it, he must be game-ending, like Ezuri. But he's a lot worse than ezuri, and more expensive, and harder to cast.
3. Fragile - No hexproof, no regeneration. His resilience comes in the form of return to hand via sacrificing forest and swamp. Which is never going to happen because we don't run swamps, and even if we did, how are you going to cast him against after sacrificing a precious black source?
4. Lacklustre abilities:
4.a His +1/+1 passive: basically means he's only good when the situation is bad. And even then, Anger is a very frequently used boardwipe, what with Dredge running around. A much better substitute is Scavenging Ooze, which is half the cost, easier to cast, serves GY hate utility, lifegain utility, and can also get big using creatures in your GY (and theirs).
4.b His activated ability is crap because it costs 1BG to activate. I mean, who has that much B lying around anyway? It might have been a great finisher if it didn't cost mana over the already prohibitive sacrifice cost. Ours is a creature deck, so if we start sacrificing stuff it better be because we're ending it. Shaman of the pack is our reach, is picked up by coco, provides a body and doesn't need us to invest anything else.
Regarding the Burn match up. With Scavenging Ooze and Essence Wardens, you don't really need a 5 mana sorcery specifically for lifegain or tutoring. As far as 4 cmc goes for winning Burn matches goes, you have Dwynen, Gilt-leaf Daen, who for 4 cmc is a Lord provides lifegain while you clock the opponent, which is exactly what you want to be doing.
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With the BG version, have you guys ever thought about playing a copy of Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord? Even if Collected Company doesn't fetch it, I think that one copy of that card might be useful. It can be used to fire some damage at the opponent when the board is full of creatures and it's hard to attack. Against creatureless decks, it becomes big after a mass removal like Damnation. The problem about that is: not profitable if the board is hit by Anger of the Gods.
Am I just insane? Should I just quit Modern and go straight to EDH? You answer that.
Also, Primal Command along with Jarad against decks like Burn seems so powerful. Maybe in the sideboard?
It can be a budget option to something, anyway.
There was a point in time where I was searching gatherer for 4 cmc elves, because I was experimenting with Eldritch Evolution and what I could potentially pull at 4 cmc that would make it worthwhile.
Jarad didn't make the cut because:
1. Double B - in a nonzero number of games you will be stuck without enough B to cast it.
2. Lack of Value - Jarad has the same issue as Dwynen; no ETB ability. Meaning for 4 cmc, he has no value if removed immediately. To be worth it, he must be game-ending, like Ezuri. But he's a lot worse than ezuri, and more expensive, and harder to cast.
3. Fragile - No hexproof, no regeneration. His resilience comes in the form of return to hand via sacrificing forest and swamp. Which is never going to happen because we don't run swamps, and even if we did, how are you going to cast him against after sacrificing a precious black source?
4. Lacklustre abilities:
4.a His +1/+1 passive: basically means he's only good when the situation is bad. And even then, Anger is a very frequently used boardwipe, what with Dredge running around. A much better substitute is Scavenging Ooze, which is half the cost, easier to cast, serves GY hate utility, lifegain utility, and can also get big using creatures in your GY (and theirs).
4.b His activated ability is crap because it costs 1BG to activate. I mean, who has that much B lying around anyway? It might have been a great finisher if it didn't cost mana over the already prohibitive sacrifice cost. Ours is a creature deck, so if we start sacrificing stuff it better be because we're ending it. Shaman of the pack is our reach, is picked up by coco, provides a body and doesn't need us to invest anything else.
Regarding the Burn match up. With Scavenging Ooze and Essence Wardens, you don't really need a 5 mana sorcery specifically for lifegain or tutoring. As far as 4 cmc goes for winning Burn matches goes, you have Dwynen, Gilt-leaf Daen, who for 4 cmc is a Lord provides lifegain while you clock the opponent, which is exactly what you want to be doing.
Well, that explains everything, indeed. You're absolutely correct, thank you.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Devoted Druid
3 Ezuri, renegade leader
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Vizier of Remedies
2 Dwynen's Elite
2 Elvish Visionary
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Walking Ballista
4 Chord of Calling
3 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Path to Exile
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
I am unsure of the exact count of Vizier of Remedies, Duskwatch Recruiter, Walking Ballista, Dwynen's Elite, and Elvish Visionary. I am not sure if I should go to 2 Duskwatch Recruiter and zero Walking Ballista.
I would like to fit some lifegain in the sideboard as well. I am not sure where I can side in Essence Warden or Kitchen Finks. I know the irreplaceable cards are Eidolon of Rhetoric, 3 Rest in Peace, 1 Reclamation Sage. I think I could go down to 1 Burrenton Forge-Tender and 1 Selfless Spirit, but I am not sure of what to get rid of to get the second Kitchen Finks. I am thinking Fracturing Gust and hope to dodge or go faster than affinity and bogles.
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Elvish Visionary
4 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Nettle Sentinel
1 Vizier of Remedies
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Pendelhaven
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Windswept Heath
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Path to Exile
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Selfless Spirit
I really liked the 'oops I win' aspect to this list with the one of Vizier. After reading this forums' recent discussion on Vizier, I agree with Pokken that 1-2 Vizier are the right numbers.
These are some changes that I'm thinking about making down the line.
+1 Vizier / -1 Nettle
I suspect that I might need to run 2 Vizier because of how popular Death's Shadow is. It would be a waste of slots to run 4 Devoted Druid and have your only Vizier discarded right off the bat. Nettle seems like the most flexible slot.
-1 ezuri / +1 duskwatch
Duskwatch gives us another mana sink, its ability synergizes so well with our deck, having multiple legendaries in hand feels bad, and I get some game against grindy decks.
-1 Selfless / +1 Rhonas
It's another win-con, mana sink, and it's resilient against non-white removal heavy decks. Spirit seems like the easiest cut because Rhonas would be boarded in against the same decks spirit goes in.
I welcome any opinion on these changes I'm thinking about. Thanks for reading.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Gilt-Leaf Palace
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
I've never been impressed with Essence warden but I know people have had results with it. Imo Kitchen Finks just gives us so much value against burn. Only way it feels bad is if it gets pathed.
Perhaps you're right about Rhonas. He gets increasingly weaker with low numbers of 2-power creatures. If I choose to run 4 Nettle, I'll have 16 2-power creatures between Nettle, Dwynen's, Archdruid, and Ezuri. With half of my creatures requiring only one pump, it doesn't seem so bad but I'll hold off on this change for now. Afterall, I really like the 2 selfless on the side.
I've been keeping an eye on discussions about Throne lists but I feel that it'll be too slow for the majority of the meta. As for a straight GB list, I'm not denying that there's strength in it but I think not playing Devoted combo is a missed opportunity. Also, Juza's list runs 4 paths in the side which I'm looking forward to testing against Death's Shadow.
I think what I need the most clarification on is how to sideboard properly with this deck.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
Fetches and shocks for a 3 color mana base imo, otherwise you'll have consistency issues with just playing your regular spells on time. I run the following land base in my abzan builds:
4x cavern of souls
4x Gilt-Leaf Palace
4x Forest
1x Pendelhaven
1x Westvale Abbey
3x Windswept Heath
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
I usually run 19 lands because I treat westvale like a spell. So that gives me 18 untapped green sources t1, 12 black sources for SotP, 4 white sources for spells (which I don't run white spells so that's fine) or 8 white sources for creatures (including caverns). I run a chord/coco build with a Selfless Spirit in the main since there have been lots of angers floating around my LGS.
Lately I've been dabbling in Sultai and run
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Botanical Sanctum
1x Yavimaya Coast
2x Windswept Heath
1x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Gilt-Leaf Palace
1x Westvale Abbey
1x Pendelhaven
2x Forest
Again I have 19 lands, with 18 untapped green sources on turn 1, 9 black sources to hard cast shaman of the pack, 12 sources to hard cast blue elves (8 blue sources if I need to cast a counter). I'm not super impressed but without 4 essence warden a more consistent base becomes too painful I think. I'm trying to shift black to my tertiary color, but I need more untapped blue sources so I can bring in a more robust counter suite.
Thanks, but I'm a little confused. Your mana base has the exact same number of black and white sources as mine. I have 18 green untapped, 12 black (4x marsh, cavern, and palace) and 4/8 white (4x canopy + 4x cavern). I also don't plan on using white spells, only creatures to play with either white sources, chord, or coco in games 2/3.
I understand fetches give you more flexibility to choose between temple garden and overgrown tomb, but running 4 forests and 1 pendelhaven make the odds of us having the right mana the same probabilities. Or am I wrong with my math?
EDIT: here
Lands (18):
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
All of my sources enter untapped for a 4th land coco. The marshes may end up biting you since 4/18 or 4/19 (which is significant enough to matter I think?) of your mana base will enter tapped for the crucial 4th land when you need to get back into a game off a coco. When I'm messing with a mana base, the main things I look for are:
Does everything enter untapped for G turn 1 for at least my first 18 lands. Nykthos and Westvale are fine, but I only run them above the base 18 and treat them as spell slots because really they only matter for a t2 Dwynen's Elite.
Next is how likely am I going to cast my finishers. I really just want like 9+ sources to make sure my secondary color creatures don't rot in my hand too often. Ideally this should be higher, and a more painful mana base will allow for such, but I think it would force us to run more essence wardens to deal with Eidolon of the great revel better in that case.
My 3rd color I usually shoot for 7ish and run my answers as creatures (cavern is my tri land here). I think strict GB or GW are better if you plan on running a spell suite in the side. I only like 3 colors when it's silver bullets in the form of a creature (like selfless spirit).
So no LAWS OF PLAYING MANA or anything like that, but this is a formula that has proven very good to me. I rarely get mana screwed on color when playing abzan elves with an appropriate mana base. The mana base I listed is also very similar to alot of lists that are floating around. Also, with such a low land count, a few fetches can really go a long way when you KNOW your out is a creature you've coco'd to the bottom already. Deck thinning while negligible is still a thing that I view as a positive in our deck since burn feels like a solid matchup to me the 1 life is an easy price to pay.
Awesome, congrats on the finish! Sounds like a meta that I'm happy to not play against :).
Round 1 vs. UW Control. I loaned out 1 deck today to my friend's brother and I face him in round 1. We played a bunch before the tournament and I won with Elves quite a bit. Game 1, I play a lot of Elves, regenerated with Ezuri and won. In the next game, I do Chord for Selfless Spirit and give indestructible in response to a Supreme Verdict. Then, I go all in from there, lose some Elves to Supreme Verdict and then put a few Elves into double Collected Company to his no answers or gas. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Eldrazi Tron. After a mull to 6, I keep on 2 land. Llanowar Elves into Elvish Archdruid, but the Archdruid gets Dismembered. I don't find another and get exactly 1 Heritage Druid off Collected Company after he put a Rachet Bomb on 1. I cannot find another land and get stuck with 3 Chord of Calling, dying to Reality Smasher and a Matter Reshaper. I keep a 2 land hand in this one as well. This one goes longer, but he plays an Endbringer into Walking Ballista. He slowly machine guns my board of 1/1s. I am stuck with 3 Chord of Calling, 1 Collected Company, and 1 Elvish Archdruid in hand. What a way to die! I drew 2 Path to Exile and Reclamation Sage, which were the ultimate slaps in the face while his Endbringer and Ballista killed me. 0-2.
Round 3 vs. Merfolk. I am happy to see a guy who played Merfolk the last time I played him. I do Elf things in the first game, turn 2 Heritage Druid into Elvish Archdruid and it's easy from there. In the next game, he got me with a timely Echoing Truth on my double Archdruid. I thought I was good after we traded my Nettle Sentinel for a Lord early, but the Truth and double Lord into Master of Waves ended me. I hadn't even sided in Path to Exile. The last game is similar to both of these games, but with no pressure, his Echoing Truth and Vapor Snag don't do much but prevent Ezuri from killing him. He doesn't have gas, with only Harbinger of Tides and Mutavault on the field and my Ezuri keeps trying for lethal until he gets it. 2-1.
Round 4 vs. UW Control. I do Elf things and regenerate with Ezuri. I get there. In the next game, I lose to 3 Path to Exile, 3 Supreme Verdict, and 2 Ancestral Vision. I just don't have any more gas, especially after a Collected Company hits 1 Elvish Visionary and another is Dispelled. He actually got the Crucible of Worlds/Ghost Quarter lock on me, sticking me with 2 lands after I fail to find another land. But it gets me excited that he kept in Crucible vs. me. In the final game, I attack a Jace, Architect of Thought after a Supreme Verdict had hit me. I kill it, but he is at a low life total. He actually made a mistake on the 2nd to last turn, doing another Supreme Verdict with Ezuri in play. I regenerate and swing for lethal. He also had Path to Exile, but I would have put a regeneration shield on my creatures anyway in response to Path to Exile on Ezuri. I had it planned out already when I imagined his outs. 2-1.
I finish 3-1, which wasn't too bad.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I am mainly a Grishoalbrand player, but I don't think it's particularly well situated vs. Death's Shadow. It's certainly not the worst, but it is unfavorable. I feel like Elves is much better vs. Grixis Shadow and have been testing it to be around 60/40. I also considered Dredge, but I don't want to face the hordes of grave hate. Not to mention, I have run a lot of grave based decks and I've gotten tired of seeing all the hate (similar to how Affinity players are tired of Stony Silence). Do you think there will be a lot of hate for Elves? Grafdigger's Cage is rough, so I'm considering putting in an extra artifact/enchantment destruction creature. But it may not help because usually you are Chording for it.
Also, I have a bit of a tough time playing Elves. I often don't go all-in when leaving the few creatures in my hand won't allow me to rebuild anyway. I think I need more help being aggressive. I wish I could watch some good GW Elves' players in action!
How do you think it is in this meta? From the above tournament report by me, I noticed that E Tron can be a problem when they are landing Walking Ballistas.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I should clarify. I am not running the Devoted Druid combo. I am running something nearly exactly like this...
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=106515
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Am I just insane? Should I just quit Modern and go straight to EDH? You answer that.
Also, Primal Command along with Jarad against decks like Burn seems so powerful. Maybe in the sideboard?
It can be a budget option to something, anyway.
There was a point in time where I was searching gatherer for 4 cmc elves, because I was experimenting with Eldritch Evolution and what I could potentially pull at 4 cmc that would make it worthwhile.
Jarad didn't make the cut because:
1. Double B - in a nonzero number of games you will be stuck without enough B to cast it.
2. Lack of Value - Jarad has the same issue as Dwynen; no ETB ability. Meaning for 4 cmc, he has no value if removed immediately. To be worth it, he must be game-ending, like Ezuri. But he's a lot worse than ezuri, and more expensive, and harder to cast.
3. Fragile - No hexproof, no regeneration. His resilience comes in the form of return to hand via sacrificing forest and swamp. Which is never going to happen because we don't run swamps, and even if we did, how are you going to cast him against after sacrificing a precious black source?
4. Lacklustre abilities:
4.a His +1/+1 passive: basically means he's only good when the situation is bad. And even then, Anger is a very frequently used boardwipe, what with Dredge running around. A much better substitute is Scavenging Ooze, which is half the cost, easier to cast, serves GY hate utility, lifegain utility, and can also get big using creatures in your GY (and theirs).
4.b His activated ability is crap because it costs 1BG to activate. I mean, who has that much B lying around anyway? It might have been a great finisher if it didn't cost mana over the already prohibitive sacrifice cost. Ours is a creature deck, so if we start sacrificing stuff it better be because we're ending it. Shaman of the pack is our reach, is picked up by coco, provides a body and doesn't need us to invest anything else.
Regarding the Burn match up. With Scavenging Ooze and Essence Wardens, you don't really need a 5 mana sorcery specifically for lifegain or tutoring. As far as 4 cmc goes for winning Burn matches goes, you have Dwynen, Gilt-leaf Daen, who for 4 cmc is a Lord provides lifegain while you clock the opponent, which is exactly what you want to be doing.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Well, that explains everything, indeed. You're absolutely correct, thank you.