Any additional feedback on beating burn (in my case, Naya burn, with Nacatl, Boros Charm, 4xsearing blood, and Atarkas command main) would be appreciated. I'm on GB, pretty standard Shaman list with a painless manabase (Gilt leaf, Blooming marsh, cavern). Game 1 on the play is doable, still feel unfavorable though, like 40-60 them. Sideboarding for me is: Out: 3 Leads, 3 Visionary (seem too slow for game 2/3 on the draw). In: 3x Chord, 2x Kitchen Finks, 1x Spellskite.
I've dabbled with thoughtseize, but it generally feels bad with the 2 life loss associated with it. IoK likely better for burn but not as good against other matchups.
Dabbled with Thragtusk, but on the draw sticking enough creatures to Chord for it or cast it is tough, and if it sticks 5 life isn't a game ending bomb.
Scavenging Ooze can be helpful if it lives, but not a "bomb".
Feed the clan with a 4 power creature seems like a game ending swing, but getting that 4 power creature for us can be tricky when they're popping our creatures and lords, and 5 life without the 4 power isn't a bomb.
Considering trying Essence Warden but I'm not sure that incremental life gain is enough to do it? Any feedback from people who've tried it? What do you side out for 4xWarden, or do you main them?
Anything I'm missing that GB sideboard offers? Pointers?
i used to run almost the same list as you, its been a while since i touch my elf deck but i remember when my friend was on burn and and we were always meeting in the fnm finals and i lost most of the time.
i usually played essence warden against him but he was just killing it before i could get some lifegain.
So i came here and asked for help to beat his deck and mtgs found vampiric link
it was really good against him because i used it on his eidolon of the great revel and all of a sudden his eidolon only affected him, i remember the first time i did this he thought i gave him lifelink, he didnt realised he had to kill his own creature while i was pooping out elves after elves and was delt no damage whatsoever. i went in for the kill after he killed his own creature dealing 2 to his face.
might not be good enough for tournament level but the card is great for an fnm and such
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Any additional feedback on beating burn (in my case, Naya burn, with Nacatl, Boros Charm, 4xsearing blood, and Atarkas command main) would be appreciated. I'm on GB, pretty standard Shaman list with a painless manabase (Gilt leaf, Blooming marsh, cavern). Game 1 on the play is doable, still feel unfavorable though, like 40-60 them. Sideboarding for me is: Out: 3 Leads, 3 Visionary (seem too slow for game 2/3 on the draw). In: 3x Chord, 2x Kitchen Finks, 1x Spellskite.
I've dabbled with thoughtseize, but it generally feels bad with the 2 life loss associated with it. IoK likely better for burn but not as good against other matchups.
Dabbled with Thragtusk, but on the draw sticking enough creatures to Chord for it or cast it is tough, and if it sticks 5 life isn't a game ending bomb.
Scavenging Ooze can be helpful if it lives, but not a "bomb".
Feed the clan with a 4 power creature seems like a game ending swing, but getting that 4 power creature for us can be tricky when they're popping our creatures and lords, and 5 life without the 4 power isn't a bomb.
Considering trying Essence Warden but I'm not sure that incremental life gain is enough to do it? Any feedback from people who've tried it? What do you side out for 4xWarden, or do you main them?
Anything I'm missing that GB sideboard offers? Pointers?
i used to run almost the same list as you, its been a while since i touch my elf deck but i remember when my friend was on burn and and we were always meeting in the fnm finals and i lost most of the time.
i usually played essence warden against him but he was just killing it before i could get some lifegain.
So i came here and asked for help to beat his deck and mtgs found vampiric link
it was really good against him because i used it on his eidolon of the great revel and all of a sudden his eidolon only affected him, i remember the first time i did this he thought i gave him lifelink, he didnt realised he had to kill his own creature while i was pooping out elves after elves and was delt no damage whatsoever. i went in for the kill after he killed his own creature dealing 2 to his face.
might not be good enough for tournament level but the card is great for an fnm and such
I can vouch for this recommendation. Bogles is my pet deck and over the years I've found that Spirit Link works wonders when slapped on an opponent's Eidolon. It's essentially a WVampiric Link, so either or would work depending on what colors you play.
There's a good bit of Burn going around at my shop, so I maindeck a 2/2 split of Wardens and Sentinels, with another pair of Wardens in the side.
If they're burning Wardens, they aren't burning Heritage Druid/Archdruid/Ezuri...and if they're burning everything you lay down, they aren't burning you, in which case you'll eventually outvalue them via CoCo and Lead.
Did you guys see the straight GW elves list with vizier druid combo at GP Copenhagen? It looked pretty sick on camera. Got me wondering if it might be secretly the best druid combo deck That plan A of elven beatdown is really appealing.
Did you guys see the straight GW elves list with vizier druid combo at GP Copenhagen? It looked pretty sick on camera. Got me wondering if it might be secretly the best druid combo deck That plan A of elven beatdown is really appealing.
There is a separate Combo Elves Forum/Thread. When I ran/OP'd this thread; it was put to a community vote as to whether they would prefer Combo be a portion of this thread...the consensus was that Elf Combo decks should be separate of "Collected Elves" lists.
If this is now changing because of the potential competitiveness of Combo Elves (I.e. If you'd prefer the Combo decks fall under the "Collected Elves" banner) please let us know and I will let them know to begin posting here again. It is a far smaller group; but they love Elves too :).
The more people the merrier. I just want to make sure we are consistent in our actions so Elf players all know where to go to get the info they are looking for.
Exciting to see so many Elves running around Copenhagen!
**P.S. I honestly don't mind...I really do just want all Elf players (combo or otherwise) to be able to access all of info important to them easily.
The point made at the time was that it was confusing the conversation and each post started with "for the Combo Version..." or "for the Abzan version..." etc. It was not the end of the world or anything...so it's no biggy if it is changed back or left as it currently is. I'm happy to help make it work for everyone either way **
Given that I've seen vizier lists talked about in here I assumed that was where it goes This list looked like basically traditional GW with vizier and druid, which seems closer to the coco list than the cloudstone curio combo lists.
I really don't care, I own the deck but am not maintaining it actively atm.
Given that I've seen vizier lists talked about in here I assumed that was where it goes This list looked like basically traditional GW with vizier and druid, which seems closer to the coco list than the cloudstone curio combo lists.
I really don't care, I own the deck but am not maintaining it actively atm.
No biggy at all. I just wanted to address the problem before too many questions began popping up (at least in my end)
The "Combo Elves" forum was for all Combo Elves decks (at the time of creation that included the Ezuri/Devoted Druid combo, Intruder Alarm/Beck combo, and Cloudstone Curio combo).
The original decision was for all Combo decks to be discussed separately. I realize that this combo is more competitive and does slot well into prior CoCo lists (requires some changes to the deck/archetype for sure; but is closer in play due to its strength with CoCo than prior combo options)...so I understand the desire to add it here. That is why I brought it up in the first place.
The Combo Elves thread is less active than this one; so there is absolutely nothing wrong with them coming here if the discussion about the combo deck will be more detailed and helpful here. I just wanted to know if I should point them this way when it was brought up...and where the delineation between the two threads should be.
There is also nothing wrong with reversing the previous decision and saying that Combo Elves should be added to this thread too (especially if the best combo deck is getting closer to the best non-combo deck).
I just got a few questions as to where one should post about the Vizier Combo deck so I wanted to be able to answer the same way every time and ensure that anyone looking for info on the deck went to the place where they got the best info possible. Basically just wanted to "nip it" early
I am in the process of adding a large "blurb" about the Devoted/Vizier combo "how it works" etc. to the Combo Elves forum; but would be just as happy if it was in here. The best case scenario is if a new Combo Elves player came to Salvations and was able (a) to get the info they. Ended from the Primer and (b) were able to speak to the largest group possible of like-minded players with questions, ideas, etc. this thread has MANY more active posters; so if it is added here that is great! I just want to make sure other Combo Elf players can feel comfortable posting as well.
P.S. I can also change the Combo Elves thread to "Combo Elves - Curio, Intruder Alarm, and Devoted Druid" and then make notes in the thread and comments to come to this thread for the Vizier Combo (or for more information on it).
Truly whatever gets each person the info they want/need most easily and from the most active, devoted players/community works for me.
FWIW my opinion is that the vizier deck is close enough to the original GW coco elves decks that started this archetype that I would not split them up. My prediction based on what I'm seeing is that if vizier or druid doesn't wind up banned then GW druid will be the future approach of this archetype.
A defining feature is that druid is such a deadly threat it takes a ton of pressure off of the rest of your dorks; I have noticed in abzan company that this is the same, no one can kill your early dorks anymore because they risk running out of removal for druid and just dying. It's spectacular.
druid himself works very well with ezuri, basically granting a lot of free activations (2 druids go infinite, too).
I actually believe the combo to be a bit inconsistent but surely it's strong. The problem is often: what do I do with all this mana? This deck already tends to produce more mana than it is able to use. Ballista is an option, but this dilutes the deck and at that point i'd play counters company or the curio version of combo elves (a bit more consistent imho)
You have 8 straight up combo outlets for infinite green (4 ezuri 4 chord) and 4 almost combo outlets (coco) and post board.
So any of 12 cards in your deck is highly likely to end in a kill if cast after infinite mana and you can also crack canopies and hit visionaries and similar.
Abzan typically has many fewer outlets, but their higher density of e-witnesses does adjust the math.
Diff between infinite and "too much" with Ezuri is dead now and dead a turn later most times. It's very common for elves to be able to activate ezuri once on turn 4 but not have lethal damage and have to pass turn to give opp. a chance to draw out. This build adds the advantage of a straight up t3/t4 kill that doesn't require Nykthos luck (as the original Gw version did).
Finished 16th without Ezuri and instead ran 2 Throne of the God Pharaoh. You think that's better than Ezuri in the GB builds?
Wow, talk about grinding your opponent. Problem with this list is that you lose some matches that you could've won in combat, the "alpha strike" as they say. You won't have many t3/t4 wins with this though, I think.
I like how this thread is going. Discussing blue builds, Throne, and Devoted Druid combo. I'm personally gonna try them all out after my exams. Will post the results here. Also, if you guys are gonna be in GP Manila and want to have some company, just PM me here or on Discord.
Vizier count should be 1 or 2. It's not an elf. I'd advocate for 1 initially.
Druids probably replace 2 Dwynen's Elite and 2 flex slots, but I've seen people shaving Visionaries. I've always preferred visionary myself but to each their own.
I don't see any reason to play Duskwatch Recruiters. Ezuri seems like enough, maybe 1 mirror entity just for pithing needle diversity. If any play 1 duskwatch.
If you try for the fast T3/4 kill, you'll suffer the same issue Infect did - single-target removal. The one benefit we have over Infect is the only real removal that ruins the Druid/vizier combo with Ezuri as the pump is the aforementioned exile or "cannot be regenerated" removal instants.
However, I don't think we need a full playset of Vizier. Elves has an insane amount of redundancy between the Heritage/Nettle pairing, Archdruid, and this new Druid/Vizier combo (with Eternal Witness to help salvage any of the above as well) that we force our opponents to have many multiple removal options in their hand when we start dumping all these mana engines onto the board. Your opponent has to constantly decide between killing your ramp to stop you from simply going wide, or try to survive the swarming to prevent us from just going infinite. To trade removals for mana engines 1:1, they need a minimum 12 spells that we cannot regenerate from/bring back with Witness.
Finished 16th without Ezuri and instead ran 2 Throne of the God Pharaoh. You think that's better than Ezuri in the GB builds?
In my small amount of testing, I've really liked how well Throne of the God-Pharaoh fits in this deck. I don't know that I'd feel comfortable getting rid of Ezuri for it, but I made other adjustments so it could fit. I'm no one to question his deck choices, but I'm definitely an advocate for more Throne testing! Glad to see it working out in a competitive environment.
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i used to run almost the same list as you, its been a while since i touch my elf deck but i remember when my friend was on burn and and we were always meeting in the fnm finals and i lost most of the time.
i usually played essence warden against him but he was just killing it before i could get some lifegain.
So i came here and asked for help to beat his deck and mtgs found vampiric link
it was really good against him because i used it on his eidolon of the great revel and all of a sudden his eidolon only affected him, i remember the first time i did this he thought i gave him lifelink, he didnt realised he had to kill his own creature while i was pooping out elves after elves and was delt no damage whatsoever. i went in for the kill after he killed his own creature dealing 2 to his face.
might not be good enough for tournament level but the card is great for an fnm and such
top 5 anime of all time (tv, not books because dragon ball would be first)
1. Sword art online 2. Fairy tail 3. Naruto(shipuden) 4. Bleach 5. Claymore
I can vouch for this recommendation. Bogles is my pet deck and over the years I've found that Spirit Link works wonders when slapped on an opponent's Eidolon. It's essentially a W Vampiric Link, so either or would work depending on what colors you play.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
If they're burning Wardens, they aren't burning Heritage Druid/Archdruid/Ezuri...and if they're burning everything you lay down, they aren't burning you, in which case you'll eventually outvalue them via CoCo and Lead.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
There is a separate Combo Elves Forum/Thread. When I ran/OP'd this thread; it was put to a community vote as to whether they would prefer Combo be a portion of this thread...the consensus was that Elf Combo decks should be separate of "Collected Elves" lists.
If this is now changing because of the potential competitiveness of Combo Elves (I.e. If you'd prefer the Combo decks fall under the "Collected Elves" banner) please let us know and I will let them know to begin posting here again. It is a far smaller group; but they love Elves too :).
The more people the merrier. I just want to make sure we are consistent in our actions so Elf players all know where to go to get the info they are looking for.
Exciting to see so many Elves running around Copenhagen!
**P.S. I honestly don't mind...I really do just want all Elf players (combo or otherwise) to be able to access all of info important to them easily.
The point made at the time was that it was confusing the conversation and each post started with "for the Combo Version..." or "for the Abzan version..." etc. It was not the end of the world or anything...so it's no biggy if it is changed back or left as it currently is. I'm happy to help make it work for everyone either way **
I really don't care, I own the deck but am not maintaining it actively atm.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
No biggy at all. I just wanted to address the problem before too many questions began popping up (at least in my end)
The "Combo Elves" forum was for all Combo Elves decks (at the time of creation that included the Ezuri/Devoted Druid combo, Intruder Alarm/Beck combo, and Cloudstone Curio combo).
The original decision was for all Combo decks to be discussed separately. I realize that this combo is more competitive and does slot well into prior CoCo lists (requires some changes to the deck/archetype for sure; but is closer in play due to its strength with CoCo than prior combo options)...so I understand the desire to add it here. That is why I brought it up in the first place.
The Combo Elves thread is less active than this one; so there is absolutely nothing wrong with them coming here if the discussion about the combo deck will be more detailed and helpful here. I just wanted to know if I should point them this way when it was brought up...and where the delineation between the two threads should be.
There is also nothing wrong with reversing the previous decision and saying that Combo Elves should be added to this thread too (especially if the best combo deck is getting closer to the best non-combo deck).
I just got a few questions as to where one should post about the Vizier Combo deck so I wanted to be able to answer the same way every time and ensure that anyone looking for info on the deck went to the place where they got the best info possible. Basically just wanted to "nip it" early
I am in the process of adding a large "blurb" about the Devoted/Vizier combo "how it works" etc. to the Combo Elves forum; but would be just as happy if it was in here. The best case scenario is if a new Combo Elves player came to Salvations and was able (a) to get the info they. Ended from the Primer and (b) were able to speak to the largest group possible of like-minded players with questions, ideas, etc. this thread has MANY more active posters; so if it is added here that is great! I just want to make sure other Combo Elf players can feel comfortable posting as well.
Truly whatever gets each person the info they want/need most easily and from the most active, devoted players/community works for me.
A defining feature is that druid is such a deadly threat it takes a ton of pressure off of the rest of your dorks; I have noticed in abzan company that this is the same, no one can kill your early dorks anymore because they risk running out of removal for druid and just dying. It's spectacular.
Heritage druid is free to just go crazy a lot.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
You have 8 straight up combo outlets for infinite green (4 ezuri 4 chord) and 4 almost combo outlets (coco) and post board.
So any of 12 cards in your deck is highly likely to end in a kill if cast after infinite mana and you can also crack canopies and hit visionaries and similar.
Abzan typically has many fewer outlets, but their higher density of e-witnesses does adjust the math.
Diff between infinite and "too much" with Ezuri is dead now and dead a turn later most times. It's very common for elves to be able to activate ezuri once on turn 4 but not have lethal damage and have to pass turn to give opp. a chance to draw out. This build adds the advantage of a straight up t3/t4 kill that doesn't require Nykthos luck (as the original Gw version did).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=113932
Finished 16th without Ezuri and instead ran 2 Throne of the God Pharaoh. You think that's better than Ezuri in the GB builds?
Wow, talk about grinding your opponent. Problem with this list is that you lose some matches that you could've won in combat, the "alpha strike" as they say. You won't have many t3/t4 wins with this though, I think.
Druids probably replace 2 Dwynen's Elite and 2 flex slots, but I've seen people shaving Visionaries. I've always preferred visionary myself but to each their own.
I don't see any reason to play Duskwatch Recruiters. Ezuri seems like enough, maybe 1 mirror entity just for pithing needle diversity. If any play 1 duskwatch.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
However, I don't think we need a full playset of Vizier. Elves has an insane amount of redundancy between the Heritage/Nettle pairing, Archdruid, and this new Druid/Vizier combo (with Eternal Witness to help salvage any of the above as well) that we force our opponents to have many multiple removal options in their hand when we start dumping all these mana engines onto the board. Your opponent has to constantly decide between killing your ramp to stop you from simply going wide, or try to survive the swarming to prevent us from just going infinite. To trade removals for mana engines 1:1, they need a minimum 12 spells that we cannot regenerate from/bring back with Witness.
My Modern Playlist:
BWTokens | GBElves
In my small amount of testing, I've really liked how well Throne of the God-Pharaoh fits in this deck. I don't know that I'd feel comfortable getting rid of Ezuri for it, but I made other adjustments so it could fit. I'm no one to question his deck choices, but I'm definitely an advocate for more Throne testing! Glad to see it working out in a competitive environment.