I don't think that the green monument is any good. Our deck at it's fundamental core is a deck that is intended to accelerate threats ahead of the curve. I'm sure as an elves player you've seldom thought "Geez, I wish I had more mana!" (In the imperative sense, I'm sure we all love having more mana!)
The second part is 'okay' for grindier matchups where you are perhaps beating in with a Heritage Druid that is getting pumped by a Pendelhaven every turn that will become a 4/5 whenever you topdeck another dork.
I replaced Nettles with Copperhorn Scouts. I felt that they were more useful to me. In my opinion. Nettle sentinels are good when you have a heritage druid, but if you don't have one they are just OK.
I replaced Nettles with Copperhorn Scouts. I felt that they were more useful to me. In my opinion. Nettle sentinels are good when you have a heritage druid, but if you don't have one they are just OK.
Nettle Sentinel, the mere mention of the card inspires vast amounts of discussion.
"Is it good enough?"
"It doesn't do anything on its own"
"It feels quite underwhelming"
"They're just ok"
The card has basically been under siege since day one of the Collected Company Revolution, and unjustly so.
Nettles have felt irreplacable over the past year playing the deck. Every substitute has fell short of the mark by a wide margin. Extra dorks are defensible (they add consistency, while losing raw power - which is defensible), but the rest? Copperhorn is only good if you're way ahead, Narnam is incredibly disappointing with and without fetches, and as a fetch target to act as a removal spell its pretty awful. The key thing to note is, that while Copperhorn Scout, Essence Warden, Narnam Rengade - they do their job loudly. Nettle Sentinel just quietly does its job.
Meanwhile, Nettle stands out against Burn in particular as a bigger body to trade with Goblin Guide, as an extra 'cheated' two points of damage against control decks, and it's effectively removal resistant as no one wants to throw bolts at it. Nettle is also exceptional when you're going off, and effectively lets you cheat on mana when you're trying to cast Chord or multiple Cocos in a turn as a last resort/race situation. Further, it lets you get the magical 4 power rate against the control decks where they feel forced to wrath.
It's very much irreplaceable. No disrespect, but its usually the newer pilots that dislike the card early in their Elves careers, but the card is very much a staple to the deck for a reason. Test the other options if you like, but time and time again I've come back to Nettle Sentinel as a 3 or 4 of in the deck.
"Its probably because you paid $100 for foils back in the day"
"Look, you're probably drunk right now"
Sure did, (and I'm always out for grog) but that has no bearing on how powerful Nettle Sentinel is in our deck. Every cent I've spent on my foil Nettles have paid me back in kind.
Its almost ten years since Eventide has been printed, and yet - it stands the test of time. Truly one of the most powerful and synergistic engine cards in the deck, and will continue to be until they make a 3/2 with the same stats and typelines. There are probably hundreds of games I would have lost without it.
There's a case to be made for Nettle vs. X, and I do feel strongly that Nettle is a fine card. But I very much disagree that Cooperhorn is only good when we're way ahead. I've run two tournaments with Copperhorn over Nettle now. Both times it's won me games I'd likely have lost through boardstsres as delicate as letting me untap with 4 creatures on board after a wipe while staring down Batterskull + Titan vs. Amulet. Granted, there's no way to know how Nettle would have influenced those games and my N is very small (hence my going back and forth to test), but my experience has been that Copperhorn is certainly not just good when we're already way ahead.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I tend to agree with Syreal as Nettle Sentinel has done a lot of work for me but willing to give Copperhorns a shot. Anyone have a good list using Copperhorns? I think I want my 2nd league tonight to use them because I have not played with them yet and want to give them a shot.
Standard BWZombiesBW
Modern BG Collected Company ElvesBG Watch at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007
Wed 7-10 Sat 7-10 Sun 6-10
Legacy GBW Natural Order ElvesGBW
I don't run Nettles. I believe they're great in some situations but top decking one feels really bad. I replaced the three in my mainboard with a black dork (Elves of Deep Shadow), Scavenging Ooze (meta call) and another Elvish Visionary.
I don't disagree with you Syreal. I do think that Nettle Sentinels are good in this deck. I like your argument that Nettle Sentinels fly under the radar as to how powerful they can be. I always have my Nettle Sentinels with me just in case I decide to go back.
So, I guess I'm not having as much success as everyone else. I see that the deck has 5-0'd a few times recently on MTGO (where I play), but I can't for the life of me see similar results. Just today alone I've lost matches against Saheli combo, Abzan DS, Jeskai Control, Scapeshift, and Burn. I'm not sure I've even won a match yet.
I'm assuming a lot of this is pilot error, since my list is very similar to all of yours, but right now I'm feeling really weak. I know the deck can do some pretty powerful stuff, and I've done that while goldfishing, but with all of the interactive decks out there (especially post board), I'm finding myself losing a lot more than winning (probably a 20-80 split).
If I can ask the more experienced players here a few questions, I'd be forever grateful for some replies:
1a. What do you like to see in your opening hand to know you have a good running opener?
1b. Conversely, what don't you like to see in your opening hand/what causes you to mulligan? Obviously all land or no land is an auto-mull, but outside of that I'm curious.
2. I know all sideboards are different, but in general what are you removing from your deck to make room for sideboard cards? Assume a lot of your SB cards are non-creatures if that helps.
3. Has there been any consensus on what "version" of the deck has been running better? I've seen GB and Junk versions doing well results wise, and mine is Junk (mostly for the board, but also for Shaman).
4. What are our best match-ups? Our worst? What makes those our best/worst match-ups?
Thanks a ton! I'll read over the title post again and edit this if I find out my questions have already been covered. Cheers!
So, I guess I'm not having as much success as everyone else. I see that the deck has 5-0'd a few times recently on MTGO (where I play), but I can't for the life of me see similar results. Just today alone I've lost matches against Saheli combo, Abzan DS, Jeskai Control, Scapeshift, and Burn. I'm not sure I've even won a match yet.
I'm assuming a lot of this is pilot error, since my list is very similar to all of yours, but right now I'm feeling really weak. I know the deck can do some pretty powerful stuff, and I've done that while goldfishing, but with all of the interactive decks out there (especially post board), I'm finding myself losing a lot more than winning (probably a 20-80 split).
If I can ask the more experienced players here a few questions, I'd be forever grateful for some replies:
1a. What do you like to see in your opening hand to know you have a good running opener?
1b. Conversely, what don't you like to see in your opening hand/what causes you to mulligan? Obviously all land or no land is an auto-mull, but outside of that I'm curious.
2. I know all sideboards are different, but in general what are you removing from your deck to make room for sideboard cards? Assume a lot of your SB cards are non-creatures if that helps.
3. Has there been any consensus on what "version" of the deck has been running better? I've seen GB and Junk versions doing well results wise, and mine is Junk (mostly for the board, but also for Shaman).
4. What are our best match-ups? Our worst? What makes those our best/worst match-ups?
Thanks a ton! I'll read over the title post again and edit this if I find out my questions have already been covered. Cheers!
Hi,
I cover points 1a and 1b, and 4 (worst matchups) extensively in the guide in my signature. I plan on finishing up a guide for sideboarding some time in a week or two, but generally speaking its spells for spells, creatures for creatures. Nettle Sentinel out on grindy matchups, Visionary out on races for the most part. Both versions operate fine, I just prefer the consistency of GB. Our best matchups consist of other creature based decks that have a midrange presence, namely Merfolk, Death and Taxes. These two are our clear 70%+ matchups as they try to do what we do, except we make bigger threats, faster.
So, I guess I'm not having as much success as everyone else. I see that the deck has 5-0'd a few times recently on MTGO (where I play), but I can't for the life of me see similar results. Just today alone I've lost matches against Saheli combo, Abzan DS, Jeskai Control, Scapeshift, and Burn. I'm not sure I've even won a match yet.
I'm assuming a lot of this is pilot error, since my list is very similar to all of yours, but right now I'm feeling really weak. I know the deck can do some pretty powerful stuff, and I've done that while goldfishing, but with all of the interactive decks out there (especially post board), I'm finding myself losing a lot more than winning (probably a 20-80 split).
If I can ask the more experienced players here a few questions, I'd be forever grateful for some replies:
1a. What do you like to see in your opening hand to know you have a good running opener?
1b. Conversely, what don't you like to see in your opening hand/what causes you to mulligan? Obviously all land or no land is an auto-mull, but outside of that I'm curious.
2. I know all sideboards are different, but in general what are you removing from your deck to make room for sideboard cards? Assume a lot of your SB cards are non-creatures if that helps.
3. Has there been any consensus on what "version" of the deck has been running better? I've seen GB and Junk versions doing well results wise, and mine is Junk (mostly for the board, but also for Shaman).
4. What are our best match-ups? Our worst? What makes those our best/worst match-ups?
Thanks a ton! I'll read over the title post again and edit this if I find out my questions have already been covered. Cheers!
One of the 5-0 lists was mine. I am finishing going back on replays (while watching Bad007's stream) to fill out the matchup information I outlined earlier and can let you know what the matchups were.
I have played GW, GB, Abzan and don't think Abzan is right for me. Prefer the consistent manabase and ability to switch a land or two for a utility land if needed. Shaman of the Pack has played big in wins I had no business winning. GW's reliance on Ezuri was the biggest reason I moved to GB even though GW has more flexibility to responding to opponents strategies. Shaman provides two plans of attack you can switch between based on how the opponent responds with retaliative ease. Also I think being proactive (things like thoughtsieze) is better than being reactive (going for W one ofs) in this meta. So many people know the hate cards that can come in and are ready for them that being reactive isn't always the best.
While you do make good points critiquing the other options, sir, I do believe some parts of the pro-sentinel is overselling.
Meanwhile, Nettle stands out against Burn in particular as a bigger body to trade with Goblin Guide,
While its true that Nettle can trade with GG, it needs to be pointed out that Narnam, one of the options put down, actually does so too without revolt, and will WALL OFF the guide with revolt. Secondly, Narnam will beat a Swiftspear on prowess 1, while Nettle simply dies. Third and last point: I'm not in the habit of trading elves with Burn mobs. I need my mass of elves to "go off" with heritage or count toward Archdruid. This is why in the example of Burn, Essence Warden and Narnam (I currently run 3:1) are superior.
as an extra 'cheated' two points of damage against control decks,
Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?
and it's effectively removal resistant as no one wants to throw bolts at it.
This isn't really an upside over the other cards, as I hardly find the other options to be less removal-baiting than Archdruid and Ezuri, our prime removal magnets.
Nettle is also exceptional when you're going off, and effectively lets you cheat on mana when you're trying to cast Chord or multiple Cocos in a turn as a last resort/race situation.
This is one key issue of Nettle: it is amazing when you're going off. Of course its exceptional, that's what Nettle was meant to do at all - if not for the Nettle-Heritage interaction, we'd be playing Zero. "Going off" is why we play nettle, so this is definitely legit as an upside. The question is, how often do we find ourselves with 1. Nettle, 2. Heritage, 3. a third elf, and 4. fuel to use, and 5. an opponent who can't remove any of these factors with removal or discard? Fulfill all 5 conditions and you have Nettle in its best form, doing what it was included in the deck to do. Numerous games later, I found it didn't happen enough.
Further, it lets you get the magical 4 power rate against the control decks where they feel forced to wrath.
If you have 2 lords in play, the control decks will be wiping the board next chance they can. So again this isn't really a sell for Nettle.
The biggest Sell for Nettle continues to be the Combo. its why the deck is listed as "Combo" in mtgtop8, and I'm really not putting down the card. I'd sleeve it again and put aside Essence Wardens the moment I see the Burn players in my LGS doing something else. But to say its straight up superior is overselling a conditionally awesome card. I'm not going to sell Essence Warden or Narnam renegade because as you'd said, their applications are loud and obvious, while Nettle frequently does its job of being a dumb 2/2 beatstick quietly, and will suddenly start screaming when 5 specific conditions are met. Its a little like Copperhorn in that regard, who will suddenly win the pilot games that we have no business winning, or pushing our winning turn 1 turn ahead.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
So new Amonkhet card that I think is highly relevant for us.
It's called throne of the God-pharaoh. It's a legendary artifact for 2. During your end step each opponet loses life equal to the amount of tapped creatures you control.
Card is bonkers imo and has the correct power level for us as SotP 5-8 if we want that much reach. Out of all modern decks I think we can turn it on the most consistently. I can easily see myself starting a 4+ a round ping as early as round 2.
I'm be jamming two in playtest this week no doubt. I'll let y'all know how it goes. It's powerful enough to just board out game 2 that we may could bait some artifact hate out of the side potentially.
Legendary means we don't want too many, but it's pretty consistent reach given we don't have trouble tapping creatures one way or another. Although it's somewhat reliant on Heritage Druid if we can't swing in.
The biggest downside I can see is that it decreases our creature density. It does nothing on its own and less than a creature when we're trying to rebuild, so topdecking it when after a wipe is harsh. And of course it whiffs CoCo.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I think this can be the 4th Shaman in GB builds which would add Glissa as well then. You might even want to add Nettle Sentinels back in then and just not untap then when the board is stalled.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
I think this can be the 4th Shaman in GB builds which would add Glissa as well then.
This is the exact thought I had when I saw it.
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Standard BWZombiesBW
Modern BG Collected Company ElvesBG Watch at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007
Wed 7-10 Sat 7-10 Sun 6-10
Legacy GBW Natural Order ElvesGBW
The second part is 'okay' for grindier matchups where you are perhaps beating in with a Heritage Druid that is getting pumped by a Pendelhaven every turn that will become a 4/5 whenever you topdeck another dork.
Through playtesting, I think I'm beginning to prefer extra dorks and/or utility creatures.
"Is it good enough?"
"It doesn't do anything on its own"
"It feels quite underwhelming"
"They're just ok"
The card has basically been under siege since day one of the Collected Company Revolution, and unjustly so.
Nettles have felt irreplacable over the past year playing the deck. Every substitute has fell short of the mark by a wide margin. Extra dorks are defensible (they add consistency, while losing raw power - which is defensible), but the rest? Copperhorn is only good if you're way ahead, Narnam is incredibly disappointing with and without fetches, and as a fetch target to act as a removal spell its pretty awful. The key thing to note is, that while Copperhorn Scout, Essence Warden, Narnam Rengade - they do their job loudly. Nettle Sentinel just quietly does its job.
Meanwhile, Nettle stands out against Burn in particular as a bigger body to trade with Goblin Guide, as an extra 'cheated' two points of damage against control decks, and it's effectively removal resistant as no one wants to throw bolts at it. Nettle is also exceptional when you're going off, and effectively lets you cheat on mana when you're trying to cast Chord or multiple Cocos in a turn as a last resort/race situation. Further, it lets you get the magical 4 power rate against the control decks where they feel forced to wrath.
It's very much irreplaceable. No disrespect, but its usually the newer pilots that dislike the card early in their Elves careers, but the card is very much a staple to the deck for a reason. Test the other options if you like, but time and time again I've come back to Nettle Sentinel as a 3 or 4 of in the deck.
"Its probably because you paid $100 for foils back in the day"
"Look, you're probably drunk right now"
Sure did, (and I'm always out for grog) but that has no bearing on how powerful Nettle Sentinel is in our deck. Every cent I've spent on my foil Nettles have paid me back in kind.
Its almost ten years since Eventide has been printed, and yet - it stands the test of time. Truly one of the most powerful and synergistic engine cards in the deck, and will continue to be until they make a 3/2 with the same stats and typelines. There are probably hundreds of games I would have lost without it.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
BWZombiesBW
Modern
BG Collected Company ElvesBG
Watch at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007
Wed 7-10 Sat 7-10 Sun 6-10
Legacy
GBW Natural Order ElvesGBW
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Copperhorn Scout
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Archdruids
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Shaman of the Pack
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2 Elvish Visionary
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Collected Company
4 Chord of Calling
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Gilt-leaf Palace
2 Razorverge Thicket
3 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Westvale Abbey
Is my current list. The Rec Sage main was a meta call and my sideboard is more for the meta I play in, but I consistently do well.
I'm assuming a lot of this is pilot error, since my list is very similar to all of yours, but right now I'm feeling really weak. I know the deck can do some pretty powerful stuff, and I've done that while goldfishing, but with all of the interactive decks out there (especially post board), I'm finding myself losing a lot more than winning (probably a 20-80 split).
If I can ask the more experienced players here a few questions, I'd be forever grateful for some replies:
1a. What do you like to see in your opening hand to know you have a good running opener?
1b. Conversely, what don't you like to see in your opening hand/what causes you to mulligan? Obviously all land or no land is an auto-mull, but outside of that I'm curious.
2. I know all sideboards are different, but in general what are you removing from your deck to make room for sideboard cards? Assume a lot of your SB cards are non-creatures if that helps.
3. Has there been any consensus on what "version" of the deck has been running better? I've seen GB and Junk versions doing well results wise, and mine is Junk (mostly for the board, but also for Shaman).
4. What are our best match-ups? Our worst? What makes those our best/worst match-ups?
Thanks a ton! I'll read over the title post again and edit this if I find out my questions have already been covered. Cheers!
I cover points 1a and 1b, and 4 (worst matchups) extensively in the guide in my signature. I plan on finishing up a guide for sideboarding some time in a week or two, but generally speaking its spells for spells, creatures for creatures. Nettle Sentinel out on grindy matchups, Visionary out on races for the most part. Both versions operate fine, I just prefer the consistency of GB. Our best matchups consist of other creature based decks that have a midrange presence, namely Merfolk, Death and Taxes. These two are our clear 70%+ matchups as they try to do what we do, except we make bigger threats, faster.
I hope it helps.
One of the 5-0 lists was mine. I am finishing going back on replays (while watching Bad007's stream) to fill out the matchup information I outlined earlier and can let you know what the matchups were.
I have played GW, GB, Abzan and don't think Abzan is right for me. Prefer the consistent manabase and ability to switch a land or two for a utility land if needed. Shaman of the Pack has played big in wins I had no business winning. GW's reliance on Ezuri was the biggest reason I moved to GB even though GW has more flexibility to responding to opponents strategies. Shaman provides two plans of attack you can switch between based on how the opponent responds with retaliative ease. Also I think being proactive (things like thoughtsieze) is better than being reactive (going for W one ofs) in this meta. So many people know the hate cards that can come in and are ready for them that being reactive isn't always the best.
While you do make good points critiquing the other options, sir, I do believe some parts of the pro-sentinel is overselling.
While its true that Nettle can trade with GG, it needs to be pointed out that Narnam, one of the options put down, actually does so too without revolt, and will WALL OFF the guide with revolt. Secondly, Narnam will beat a Swiftspear on prowess 1, while Nettle simply dies. Third and last point: I'm not in the habit of trading elves with Burn mobs. I need my mass of elves to "go off" with heritage or count toward Archdruid. This is why in the example of Burn, Essence Warden and Narnam (I currently run 3:1) are superior.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?
This isn't really an upside over the other cards, as I hardly find the other options to be less removal-baiting than Archdruid and Ezuri, our prime removal magnets.
This is one key issue of Nettle: it is amazing when you're going off. Of course its exceptional, that's what Nettle was meant to do at all - if not for the Nettle-Heritage interaction, we'd be playing Zero. "Going off" is why we play nettle, so this is definitely legit as an upside. The question is, how often do we find ourselves with 1. Nettle, 2. Heritage, 3. a third elf, and 4. fuel to use, and 5. an opponent who can't remove any of these factors with removal or discard? Fulfill all 5 conditions and you have Nettle in its best form, doing what it was included in the deck to do. Numerous games later, I found it didn't happen enough.
If you have 2 lords in play, the control decks will be wiping the board next chance they can. So again this isn't really a sell for Nettle.
The biggest Sell for Nettle continues to be the Combo. its why the deck is listed as "Combo" in mtgtop8, and I'm really not putting down the card. I'd sleeve it again and put aside Essence Wardens the moment I see the Burn players in my LGS doing something else. But to say its straight up superior is overselling a conditionally awesome card. I'm not going to sell Essence Warden or Narnam renegade because as you'd said, their applications are loud and obvious, while Nettle frequently does its job of being a dumb 2/2 beatstick quietly, and will suddenly start screaming when 5 specific conditions are met. Its a little like Copperhorn in that regard, who will suddenly win the pilot games that we have no business winning, or pushing our winning turn 1 turn ahead.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
It's called throne of the God-pharaoh. It's a legendary artifact for 2. During your end step each opponet loses life equal to the amount of tapped creatures you control.
Card is bonkers imo and has the correct power level for us as SotP 5-8 if we want that much reach. Out of all modern decks I think we can turn it on the most consistently. I can easily see myself starting a 4+ a round ping as early as round 2.
I'm be jamming two in playtest this week no doubt. I'll let y'all know how it goes. It's powerful enough to just board out game 2 that we may could bait some artifact hate out of the side potentially.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
WiJ
Peasant 540 Cube
The biggest downside I can see is that it decreases our creature density. It does nothing on its own and less than a creature when we're trying to rebuild, so topdecking it when after a wipe is harsh. And of course it whiffs CoCo.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
BWZombiesBW
Modern
BG Collected Company ElvesBG
Watch at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007
Wed 7-10 Sat 7-10 Sun 6-10
Legacy
GBW Natural Order ElvesGBW
4 CoCo, 3 Lead, 1 this.
It could be GB or GW.