I think I may be on the “Clancaller is powerful for GB” train. I have been fooling around, but this may be exactly what we needed. Reasons as follows.
1) GB’s strategy is to chip away at the enemy until Shaman becomes lethal. Not necessarily combo out (dropping the necessity of needing key pieces like GW needs).
2) Having 8 lords instead of 4 makes each of our creatures very scary, especially Nettle Sentinel. With this Lord, out Nettles becomes non-flying Delver of Secrets on turn 2.
3) Visionary is our weakest link. How? Because, it doesn’t aid too much in our strategy. I am on Lead Elves and so the “advantage” is not what I am looking for. Best case scenario with Visionary is drawing a company. That is only 4 hits and the rest of the hits are sub par.
By adding more punch in our deck, we can push damage through. No evasion? Not a problem. That is why we have shamans so we don’t need to evade. And do note that 6 mana is not a lot for us. We can easily get to that amount for our card advantage with this lady. This lady makes us very similar to Merfolk, except we don’t have to play vial and naturally run company.
Visionary is to help draw into your sideboard cards and consistency reasons. Clancaller gives a more tempo approach, if you are building a clancaller version. You would cut chords for LTS straight up, it's not the same as merfolk. Merfolk has a lot more tools than islandwalk with the power of dominaria.
They still run adept, which is visionary for consistency and CA. Decks that attack do want some sort of evasion, even if you are relying an on alternate win con. The main win con is ezuri, and attacking with a bunch of trample elves.
6 Mana is actually a lot, you don't get to 6 Mana a lot of the times in any games. Otherwise, you would see elves running garruk and playing the LTS ability along with hoof.
I will still pick up 4 clancaller in the case we ever get another 2 Mana lord for an aethervial type of deck. But evasion is important, elves that do something to the board is important, and inevitably we need something like spreading seas to effectively run elvish champion in that style of deck.
Most important difference is running mutavaults. Actually having a manland that gets buffed matters for decks that have a lot of lords.
You bring up good points, but "The main win con is ezuri, and attacking with a bunch of trample elves" is not true at all. I have been playing Shaman Elves since its release and been an advocate of it, but plan A for GB is Shaman, not Ezuri. That is why most GB lists drop Ezuri down to 2 and experiment with Lead. I have been on Lead Shaman forever and win much more often with Shaman than Ezuri.
Sideboard consistency is a good point. I do believe that the two mana elves gives a merfold-like approach, not a carbon copy. The two are different decks, yes, but the two mana lord gives us that angle as well. This was debated adnauseum when Shaman was spoiled. People thought it was clunky, but it gave us a "new angle." This lord may do the same.
You should goldfish with the 6 mana thing. Its really do-able. Turn 1 mana dork, turn two Hertiage and another one mana dork, drop two mana lord. turn three, you can activate :D. That scenario enough times, btw. Also, Archrduid can make six mana very easily. Obviously, if we have lead or other things to cast, we would prioritize that. But, if we have nothing, we have this mana sink.
I'll play some games at FNM to test. The only way we get to 6 Mana if it's against humans. My FNM is mostly jeskai, human, and hollow ones. So it should be closely similar to playing in an actual REL tournament.
I did play mono green going into G/B, so maybe I should focus shaman as the win con. That means running chord, which is awkward with clancaller because you don't have elves to tap if you are attacking in the early game. I'll wait to see if this is a problem once I pick up everything on release.
Good observations. The meta, especially the Jeskai, makes me think that Clancaller could be in good contention with Visionary. The discussion on Chord vs Lead has been had quite extensively in the old thread. My conclusion was that GB Elves leans more towards Lead than Chord (adjusting the sideboard). In short, GB requires a mass of creatures to effectively hit with Shaman and GW requires the right pieces (Archrduid or combo for the mana, Ezuri for the pump). I have played both chord and Lead for GB (my SCG IQ Top 8 was lead, Japanese Monthly Modern Masters top 4 was Chord), but I lean towards lead. After much discussion, though, I am not convinced it is universally true, but rather, simply matter of taste. There is a whole color spectrum in-between like two chords and one lead and two leads and one chord.
I believe in one chord due to Reid talking about double chord hands if you went 3-4. So maximum I would do is 2-1 split and one SB. I am also playing the devoted druid combo plan, hence I would rely on attacking to win and increase ezuri count to 3. Otherwise they can relatively be 3 nettle and 4 clancaller into 2 LTS and 1 chord split.
Devoted forces you into a 3-1 or 4 chord plan because u want to win as soon as possible. How reliable this happens within an 8 round format needs more testing. Since the older stock list gave more consistency and having the random vizier in hand is sometimes awkward within 11 rounds.
You pose a conundrum that I don’t have an answer to. I am fully positive about the GW build and yes, I have tried it. I think GW is as good as GB and it depends on the meta, time and pilot to determine which is better in a given situation. I myself have had a hard time with Chord versions in general and thus, prefer the Lead version, but that is not to say Chord versions are worse. Syreal94, one of the co-authors for this new thread will be quick to tout the necessity and power of Chord. As for GW, I think you won’t have any more of an easy time against control, but rather, will experience an increase of “oops, I won” situations where an opponent will not have the right removal for your combo.
My answer for control in GB lies in my four copies of Thought Knot Seers. I gave an extensive defense of them in the old thread, so I will not repeat it here, but in general, it is a power house against control and slower combo and burn. Our mana base naturally lends to adding it and being a Lead version gives me ample opportunity to find them. It has worked for me fairly well, but I think that comes from extensive experience in timing Thoughtseizes and dropping TKS. In essence, I have a transformational sideboard that hedges against control since I am in Japan where a lot of pilots prefer control. It could also be my Japanese blood that pumps through my veins that itches for a nitch solution to complex problems. To say that is Japanese is true. All you have to do is look at the Japanese pros and what they bring for Pro Tours lol. There is a Japanese word for it, “Kodawari.” But, I digress.
In essence, I think playing what you believe is a good version (assuming it is a good archetype) and coming up with your own solution is better than following the crowd and playing the next “successful” MTGGOldfish deck. I really do believe the modern format mantra of “know your deck more than play the best deck.”
I have been considering the card for a very long time, but I was unsure for this meta. Since the meta is too diverse, I don't know if they would be even good. If say i guess my region is about 60% mid-range + control in the forms of mardhu, scapeshift, jeskai control, and humans. Would SBing about 3-4 TKS be relatively good? I understand the logic and reasoning of also being able to have "better topdeck". TKS is a better topdeck than TS since it is a creature and upside to take a card + information.
I have been Elfing GB for like half of a year now and I'm getting somewhat bored with this deck and overwhelmed with trons and control in my local meta.
Would you suggest me to try out GW for some time or you do believe we should stick to GB once we had chosen that path because it's worth it?
I'm currently also playing Lead version. The only drawback I have spotted is that you often need to sideboard them out so they are sometimes useless game one (storm, burn, etc).
Also, they are easily dodgeable by control but it's just a hard matchup I know.
I would go into the combo. I was in your position and I didn't drop Shamans. I liked the Shaman-Chord-Shaman kill too much to give it up completely.
The way I see it, you need to add the following cards:
4 Devoted Druid
1 Vizier of Remedies
3-4 Chords
Not terribly expensive and really quite the small change. Its probably manabases we're worried about, but you don't HAVE to play Horizon canopies (though if you already have them, all power to you). The white mana is really just for Vizier, and I play my unclaimed territory on Human sometimes if my other mana needs are met. Other than unclaimed, the rest of my manabase is typical GB with the palaces and blooming marshes.
So not a large investment and really not much to lose. If your meta is Tron, then yea combo is definitely going to be better positioned.
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Infinite Mana is worse g2/g3 as far as in paper goes. Tron lowers their curve and play spatial contortion to interact with your infinite Mana combo. The beat down plan is still better for that match up with SB rec sages and Nissa, voice of zendikar. I decided to listen to some players and took out dampening sphere completely for amulet of safekeeping.
Slowing down my curve hurted me more than it hurts them along with other match ups like storm. So I'll just be playing my 3-4 relics and free up some slots for infernal.
I apologize for the late reply. I have been traveling and have finally settled down back home (for a month) in my wife’s parents’ lovely home in Minnesota.
I do indeed have three ts and four tks. I side them in against control, spell combos, sfaepshift and tron. TKS, I bring in against burn as well. I don’t bring them in against Aggro, midrange or creature decks since most creature decks(aka humans) I can beat without much trouble.
Honestly, it’s my “twist” that transforms my deck after sideboard and often times, it’s the surprise that gets the opponent as much as the card themselves.
Alright, thanks for the advice.
I'm playing a stock g/b list currently for now and then experiment later when I have the feel for it. Experimenting with the SB is where I usually want to show the creativity.
The SB part needs a lot of updating, I only did a small part. Would have to pm an entire .doc and see if anyone can edit post. Not sure if I could have the time for that for Prague.
Tron:
2 damp spheres (if SBed)
2 oozes
2 rec sage
3 TS
2 stain the mind (if SB)
Storm/combo using GY:
3 relics
2 oozes
2 rec sage (if KCI)
2 stain the mind (if SB)
3 thoughtseize
4 Thought knot seer (if SB)
Jeskai control:
Relic
Ooze
Thoughtseize
Thought knot seer
Going off Mike's SB list. I think this would fit the current representation of modern.
2 rec sage
3 relic
4 thought knot seer
2 thoughtseize
2 Nissa, voice of zendikar
2 dismember
This is relatively decent against your mid-range, control match ups. You would lose to the affinity match up, unless you want to cut a a sage for one fracturing gust. Burn, you take the 50/50 g2? All you side in are thought knot seers and nissas for more grind and take out boros charms in their hand.
As for SBing out cards, you cut heritage druids, nettle sentinels, and chords/LTS depending on how grindy or fast the match up is. You might even cut some visionaries and a singleton shaman from the full 4 to lower the curve. At least this is what is from my experience and asking friends who play the same deck.
Hello, new to the deck. I think that gb elves fits my playstyle more. Im building my manabase, and, for now, i only have 1 cavern of souls. Can you help me with that? thank you so much
You can easily replace Cavern with Unclaimed Territory, fetches, Overgrown Tomb, or any GB source really. Cavern isn't necessary, it's just that we are able to run it without much downside so it gives you some percentage points against anyone with Chalice or counter magic.
Hello, new to the deck. I think that gb elves fits my playstyle more. Im building my manabase, and, for now, i only have 1 cavern of souls. Can you help me with that? thank you so much
Yeah, personally I don't think it's all that necessary in Elves. After seeing a non-Cavern, 9 Forest, Elf list top 8 a recent GP, I decided to not even play Cavern myself in Elves (despite me loving it in Elves...and Merfolk too!). I have owned 4 Cavern of Souls ever since Avacyn Restored, but I honestly felt that the extra points you get for using them are so small that I could just leave my Caverns in other decks. (Part of my reason is that I have Elves foiled, except Caverns too, lol.)
This is not a big change like something where you use Avacyn's Pilgrim in a deck over Noble Hierarch. This change is literally less than 1 percentage point. Then again, I don't play this deck often either, so you may hear differently from someone who runs it every day.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
1) GB’s strategy is to chip away at the enemy until Shaman becomes lethal. Not necessarily combo out (dropping the necessity of needing key pieces like GW needs).
2) Having 8 lords instead of 4 makes each of our creatures very scary, especially Nettle Sentinel. With this Lord, out Nettles becomes non-flying Delver of Secrets on turn 2.
3) Visionary is our weakest link. How? Because, it doesn’t aid too much in our strategy. I am on Lead Elves and so the “advantage” is not what I am looking for. Best case scenario with Visionary is drawing a company. That is only 4 hits and the rest of the hits are sub par.
By adding more punch in our deck, we can push damage through. No evasion? Not a problem. That is why we have shamans so we don’t need to evade. And do note that 6 mana is not a lot for us. We can easily get to that amount for our card advantage with this lady. This lady makes us very similar to Merfolk, except we don’t have to play vial and naturally run company.
My 2 cents. I will be buying 4 foil copies.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Clancaller
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Collected Company
4 Lead the Stampede
They still run adept, which is visionary for consistency and CA. Decks that attack do want some sort of evasion, even if you are relying an on alternate win con. The main win con is ezuri, and attacking with a bunch of trample elves.
6 Mana is actually a lot, you don't get to 6 Mana a lot of the times in any games. Otherwise, you would see elves running garruk and playing the LTS ability along with hoof.
I will still pick up 4 clancaller in the case we ever get another 2 Mana lord for an aethervial type of deck. But evasion is important, elves that do something to the board is important, and inevitably we need something like spreading seas to effectively run elvish champion in that style of deck.
Most important difference is running mutavaults. Actually having a manland that gets buffed matters for decks that have a lot of lords.
Sideboard consistency is a good point. I do believe that the two mana elves gives a merfold-like approach, not a carbon copy. The two are different decks, yes, but the two mana lord gives us that angle as well. This was debated adnauseum when Shaman was spoiled. People thought it was clunky, but it gave us a "new angle." This lord may do the same.
You should goldfish with the 6 mana thing. Its really do-able. Turn 1 mana dork, turn two Hertiage and another one mana dork, drop two mana lord. turn three, you can activate :D. That scenario enough times, btw. Also, Archrduid can make six mana very easily. Obviously, if we have lead or other things to cast, we would prioritize that. But, if we have nothing, we have this mana sink.
Good discussion, keep it coming.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
I did play mono green going into G/B, so maybe I should focus shaman as the win con. That means running chord, which is awkward with clancaller because you don't have elves to tap if you are attacking in the early game. I'll wait to see if this is a problem once I pick up everything on release.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
Devoted forces you into a 3-1 or 4 chord plan because u want to win as soon as possible. How reliable this happens within an 8 round format needs more testing. Since the older stock list gave more consistency and having the random vizier in hand is sometimes awkward within 11 rounds.
You pose a conundrum that I don’t have an answer to. I am fully positive about the GW build and yes, I have tried it. I think GW is as good as GB and it depends on the meta, time and pilot to determine which is better in a given situation. I myself have had a hard time with Chord versions in general and thus, prefer the Lead version, but that is not to say Chord versions are worse. Syreal94, one of the co-authors for this new thread will be quick to tout the necessity and power of Chord. As for GW, I think you won’t have any more of an easy time against control, but rather, will experience an increase of “oops, I won” situations where an opponent will not have the right removal for your combo.
My answer for control in GB lies in my four copies of Thought Knot Seers. I gave an extensive defense of them in the old thread, so I will not repeat it here, but in general, it is a power house against control and slower combo and burn. Our mana base naturally lends to adding it and being a Lead version gives me ample opportunity to find them. It has worked for me fairly well, but I think that comes from extensive experience in timing Thoughtseizes and dropping TKS. In essence, I have a transformational sideboard that hedges against control since I am in Japan where a lot of pilots prefer control. It could also be my Japanese blood that pumps through my veins that itches for a nitch solution to complex problems. To say that is Japanese is true. All you have to do is look at the Japanese pros and what they bring for Pro Tours lol. There is a Japanese word for it, “Kodawari.” But, I digress.
In essence, I think playing what you believe is a good version (assuming it is a good archetype) and coming up with your own solution is better than following the crowd and playing the next “successful” MTGGOldfish deck. I really do believe the modern format mantra of “know your deck more than play the best deck.”
I apologize if I wasn’t very helpful.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
I have been considering the card for a very long time, but I was unsure for this meta. Since the meta is too diverse, I don't know if they would be even good. If say i guess my region is about 60% mid-range + control in the forms of mardhu, scapeshift, jeskai control, and humans. Would SBing about 3-4 TKS be relatively good? I understand the logic and reasoning of also being able to have "better topdeck". TKS is a better topdeck than TS since it is a creature and upside to take a card + information.
I would go into the combo. I was in your position and I didn't drop Shamans. I liked the Shaman-Chord-Shaman kill too much to give it up completely.
The way I see it, you need to add the following cards:
4 Devoted Druid
1 Vizier of Remedies
3-4 Chords
Not terribly expensive and really quite the small change. Its probably manabases we're worried about, but you don't HAVE to play Horizon canopies (though if you already have them, all power to you). The white mana is really just for Vizier, and I play my unclaimed territory on Human sometimes if my other mana needs are met. Other than unclaimed, the rest of my manabase is typical GB with the palaces and blooming marshes.
So not a large investment and really not much to lose. If your meta is Tron, then yea combo is definitely going to be better positioned.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Slowing down my curve hurted me more than it hurts them along with other match ups like storm. So I'll just be playing my 3-4 relics and free up some slots for infernal.
I apologize for the late reply. I have been traveling and have finally settled down back home (for a month) in my wife’s parents’ lovely home in Minnesota.
I do indeed have three ts and four tks. I side them in against control, spell combos, sfaepshift and tron. TKS, I bring in against burn as well. I don’t bring them in against Aggro, midrange or creature decks since most creature decks(aka humans) I can beat without much trouble.
Honestly, it’s my “twist” that transforms my deck after sideboard and often times, it’s the surprise that gets the opponent as much as the card themselves.
Let me know if you want a deck list.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
I'm playing a stock g/b list currently for now and then experiment later when I have the feel for it. Experimenting with the SB is where I usually want to show the creativity.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
We could give you a tldr based on recent GPs.
Humans:
2 dismember
2 Nissa, voice of zendikar
2 oozes (if SBed)
Tron:
2 damp spheres (if SBed)
2 oozes
2 rec sage
3 TS
2 stain the mind (if SB)
Storm/combo using GY:
3 relics
2 oozes
2 rec sage (if KCI)
2 stain the mind (if SB)
3 thoughtseize
4 Thought knot seer (if SB)
Jeskai control:
Relic
Ooze
Thoughtseize
Thought knot seer
Going off Mike's SB list. I think this would fit the current representation of modern.
2 rec sage
3 relic
4 thought knot seer
2 thoughtseize
2 Nissa, voice of zendikar
2 dismember
This is relatively decent against your mid-range, control match ups. You would lose to the affinity match up, unless you want to cut a a sage for one fracturing gust. Burn, you take the 50/50 g2? All you side in are thought knot seers and nissas for more grind and take out boros charms in their hand.
As for SBing out cards, you cut heritage druids, nettle sentinels, and chords/LTS depending on how grindy or fast the match up is. You might even cut some visionaries and a singleton shaman from the full 4 to lower the curve. At least this is what is from my experience and asking friends who play the same deck.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Yeah, personally I don't think it's all that necessary in Elves. After seeing a non-Cavern, 9 Forest, Elf list top 8 a recent GP, I decided to not even play Cavern myself in Elves (despite me loving it in Elves...and Merfolk too!). I have owned 4 Cavern of Souls ever since Avacyn Restored, but I honestly felt that the extra points you get for using them are so small that I could just leave my Caverns in other decks. (Part of my reason is that I have Elves foiled, except Caverns too, lol.)
This is not a big change like something where you use Avacyn's Pilgrim in a deck over Noble Hierarch. This change is literally less than 1 percentage point. Then again, I don't play this deck often either, so you may hear differently from someone who runs it every day.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)