I'd rather not expose heritage before I play Dwynen's Elite. You could play 20 1 drops, and pretty much any 2 land hand is a lock or heritage. If it's not your not left with a grizzly elf. Attrition is not a good strategy against prowess. Black sac never works here.
I'm not sure you understood my post.
I didn't mention anything about playing heritage before elite; yes u can t1 heritage and t2 elite, or u can t1 dork and then t2 elite + heritage. But thats not the point I'm making. I'm making the point that you don't have Dwynen's elite, presumably their slots have been given to prowess, and this is going to negatively affect the odds of your explosive starts. As far as noncreature spells go Collected Company would be something I'd rather see in my starting hand in game 1.
I couldn't understand the second and third sentence.
Attrition is indeed not a good strategy against prowess, but again that wasn't my point. I said that if you were to play against noninteractive decks, prowess is basically a dead card.
I don't even know why black sac is mentioned here. What does that mean?
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It goes toe to toe with targeted removal and creature based decks which are two very common things in today's meta. Do you just scoop against a pyroclasm?
OK, this is readable.
Yes, but you scoop against Baral, and there are more Barals in Game 1s than Pyroclasms. Having Elite (which is 2 elves in 1 card) in that MU is far better than having wipe insurance in the main which very few decks sport.
If its targeted removal you're playing against, Shaper's Sanctuary is far superior in terms of speed, ease of casting and the payoff.
And still. Dwynen's elite excels against Pyroclasms. Counterintuitive? 1 dork and 1 elite will put 4 power on the board and u can slowroll the opponent into casting their precious wipe.
Creature based decks: we are the fastest creature based deck in the format with DSZ and bushwhacker zoo largely being fringe. If you play your list against Merfolk your Prowesses actually set you behind. What other creature decks are you concerned about? I'm really curious.
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I'm planning to test the following list at a local event, but I need some help with the sideboard. Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.
When you turn 1 dork, and then turn 2 Dwynen's... what happens if they bolt the dork in response to you casting Dwynen's? What happens is you just get Dwynen's Elite with no token.
This is not as strong as turn 1 dork into turn 2 warden and heritage. They will bolt the dork or warden in response to casting heritage... BUT, you still have a mana open for maybe another dork so you can pop heritage into 3 mana.
It's an extra card sure, but there is no risk.
That's the difference. And it is why Dwynen's is in few lists. In fact most elf decks run 20 1 drops.
Correct me if I'm wrong but when I think of attrition, I think of smallpox. And yes, prowess of the fair single-handedly beats attrition from start to finish. Dwynen's is completely gone after 2 effects. If you love Dwynen's so much why don't you make a bramblewood paragon deck and pop out a 3/3 and 2/2 for two mana.
PotF lets you chump block for a long time WITHOUT affecting your elf count. I don't have CoCo, its like 70 dollars for a playset I think. That's as much as my entire deck.
Shaper's Sanctuary is a great card in some matchups. That would be a more reasonable debate.
Don't have much glued in the sideboard yet except for some sages and relics. I'm always tinkering with different cards. Garruk and rites serve as Genesis support. I'm on the fence about lead vs. life crafter's. Both have won and lost games.
When you turn 1 dork, and then turn 2 Dwynen's... what happens if they bolt the dork in response to you casting Dwynen's? What happens is you just get Dwynen's Elite with no token.
And is it a lot better if they bolt your dork with prowess on the stack? How many games have you gotten in with elves exactly? Any opponent worth their salt will be killing your turn 1 dork if they want to, before your turn 2 mainphase, and not wait until you can use that mana for something.
This is not as strong as turn 1 dork into turn 2 warden and heritage. They will bolt the dork or warden in response to casting heritage... BUT, you still have a mana open for maybe another dork so you can pop heritage into 3 mana.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you cast heritage last (as you should) then it doesn't matter, you will be flat out of mana and can't chain off if they remove something with heritage on the stack (as they should).
It's an extra card sure, but there is no risk.
That's the difference. And it is why Dwynen's is in few lists. In fact most elf decks run 20 1 drops.
Of course there is a risk. The risk is everytime you meet an opponent who's not playing the attrition game, you're playing with a irrelevant 2 drop. Storm, Etron, affinity care very little about your prowess tech. You're better off developing your board.
And Dwynen's elite being in few lists? Its in virtually every top 8 elves list ever, so what the heck are you on about?
Correct me if I'm wrong but when I think of attrition, I think of smallpox. And yes, prowess of the fair single-handedly beats attrition from start to finish. Dwynen's is completely gone after 2 effects. If you love Dwynen's so much why don't you make a bramblewood paragon deck and pop out a 3/3 and 2/2 for two mana.
That's a very unusual card to first come to mind. Attrition generally brings to mind bolts and snaps in grixis colors and jund strategies, not a fringe deck like 8rack. And I hardly think your prowess of the fair does well against an ensnaring bridge deck that focuses more on hand disruption than removal. If you're playing against a smallpox brew then there is little room for discussion because only you know what you're facing.
PotF lets you chump block for a long time WITHOUT affecting your elf count. I don't have CoCo, its like 70 dollars for a playset I think. That's as much as my entire deck.
What exactly are you chump blocking for a long time? If its a tarmogoyf I don't see how you're going to win that eventually. Reality smasher? Goblin Electromancer? Etched Champion? I'm naming tier 1 decks here, but do let me know what you're facing exactly.
Shaper's Sanctuary is a great card in some matchups. That would be a more reasonable debate.
In the first place dropping elite for prowess maindeck was never a reasonable choice. So its funny you would bring up reasonable debate. Shaper's sanctuary is arguably a better card than Prowess and even then its not maindecked. That's how far off you are from reasonable debate, to borrow the phrase.
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If u have a dork on board and they bolt the dork when u cast heritage, u can float Mana from the dork to cast another one. Ask any elf player worth their grain of salt dwynen's is a bait card. You can't build aggro combo elves because of how good and yet deck dependant coco is. And yes I've won many games where they bolt the dork in response to potf. What it means is they have many bolts, and I'm going to have a small army of 1/1 tokens in a few turns... So that if I do chord an ezuri or an archdruid or a shaman, or whatever there's actually elves on board. I got pyroclasm'd 3 times in the first 6 turns AND WON against doubling season and 3 or 4 planeswalkers because of the resiliency. That and Garruk trading with a sarkhan.But coco can't use Garruk. Or win off 2 lands and thousand year elixir. It's win on turn 4 or 5 or bust. I can mess around with Garruk and itlimoc because I don't have to build a 35 creature deck.
But I really just have one question for u? Have you tried potf?
If u have a dork on board and they bolt the dork when u cast heritage, u can float Mana from the dork to cast another one. Ask any elf player worth their grain of salt dwynen's is a bait card. You can't build aggro combo elves because of how good and yet deck dependant coco is. And yes I've won many games where they bolt the dork in response to potf. What it means is they have many bolts, and I'm going to have a small army of 1/1 tokens in a few turns... So that if I do chord an ezuri or an archdruid or a shaman, or whatever there's actually elves on board. I got pyroclasm'd 3 times in the first 6 turns AND WON against doubling season and 3 or 4 planeswalkers because of the resiliency. That and Garruk trading with a sarkhan.But coco can't use Garruk. Or win off 2 lands and thousand year elixir. It's win on turn 4 or 5 or bust. I can mess around with Garruk and itlimoc because I don't have to build a 35 creature deck.
But I really just have one question for u? Have you tried potf?
Yea your first sentence doesn't make any sense. We know that tapping for mana can be done in response. Nobody questioned that. I said the opponent would bolt your dork before your next turn, while it is summoning sick. Comprende?
Yes, I've tried potf. 3 copies in the sideboard. Now with Selfless spirit, shaper's sanc, its simply not necessary.
And you got pyroclasmed 3 times in the first 6 turns, hmmm. Are you aware that your tokens dying doesn't produce more tokens? You haven't been playing the card wrong, have you?
Look, I don't really see a point in continuing this debate. You're playing a deck without Elves company, drops one of the core elves, and now apparently Garruk is in the picture as well. And in a meta that has pyroclasms and Doubling season. If your brew works in your unique meta, that's great. But don't argue against tested and proven meta decks and core staples, its just weird.
Said it once and will say it again: Dwynen's elite has been in virtually every top 8-ing deck in the recent past, and there is a reason for that.
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In 2016 elves took down first in a pro tournament. There were zero dwynen's elite.
Also, that 3 pyroclasm'd game included a doubling season against 3 planeswalkers post ultimate on the same turn. It was actually probably the most fun I've had because there was a sequence of turns of each of us presenting lethal and then responding. Suffice to say Genesis wave beat 3 ults of planeswalkers the very next turn. Potf wasn't in my deck on that matchup, point is there's plenty of non-creature permanents coco/chord can't use based on probabilities. Just because elves has had some moderate success over the past few years doesn't mean you should immediately accept a pure aggro route as the only thing elves can do. There is absolutely no reason to not test every single option available. Learning the why thousand-year elixir can win and lost games gives added experience to evaluating cards that come out soon
In 2016 elves took down first in a pro tournament. There were zero dwynen's elite.
Also, that 3 pyroclasm'd game included a doubling season against 3 planeswalkers post ultimate on the same turn. It was actually probably the most fun I've had because there was a sequence of turns of each of us presenting lethal and then responding. Suffice to say Genesis wave beat 3 ults of planeswalkers the very next turn. Potf wasn't in my deck on that matchup, point is there's plenty of non-creature permanents coco/chord can't use based on probabilities. Just because elves has had some moderate success over the past few years doesn't mean you should immediately accept a pure aggro route as the only thing elves can do. There is absolutely no reason to not test every single option available. Learning the why thousand-year elixir can win and lost games gives added experience to evaluating cards that come out soon
You're in the wrong thread. This is the Coco Elves thread where we've established the following core cards are critical to the strength of the deck:
Collected Company
Dwynen's Elite
Not running them simply puts you in a different category of elves; so I recommend posting in the Combo Elves primer.
Our LGS consistently has two 8-Rack players every fnm. I've played them both and beat them too.. but only because they've had really bad draws against me. Maybe I'm overthinking but in theory, doesn't it seem like 8-Rack is a bad match up for us? They have main board Ensnaring Bridge and Bontu's Last Reckoning. Smallpox and fatal push is making it worse too. What's the general strategy against them? What to board in? Looking for some input from fellow Elves players
Our LGS consistently has two 8-Rack players every fnm. I've played them both and beat them too.. but only because they've had really bad draws against me. Maybe I'm overthinking but in theory, doesn't it seem like 8-Rack is a bad match up for us? They have main board Ensnaring Bridge and Bontu's Last Reckoning. Smallpox and fatal push is making it worse too. What's the general strategy against them? What to board in? Looking for some input from fellow Elves players
Bring in your grindy stuff (walkers, leads, kitchen finks etc). Its supposed to be bad.
I play against smallpox almost every week and twice a week back when I had no kids and more time for magic. In the beginning it felt bad, but after a lot of grinds and some adjustment I was doing 50-50.
Shaman is your best friend against bridge, and Lead the Stampede is the best card in that MU overall. Maindeck wipe sounds bad, if you see wipes a lot, you can either play Fecundity or just lean on Ezuri. If you are playing GW chord, Aegis of the Gods is a good chord target, but I would still much rather have Leads. Adjustments I made included Essence wardens main, Leads in the side(I ran chords main).
Empty your hand, all the time every time. Don't think about the bridge. Storing cards is suicide. Cards that help this match up are many:
Shaman of the Pack - Kills across bridges and often wins you the race against racks.
Essence Warden - greatly helps you in the race against the racks even as you empty your hand and shorten their clock.
Lead the Stampede - They hate this card, for obvious reasons.
Scavenging Ooze - board this in, do not board it out. Raven's Crime.
Fracturing Gust - clears all racks and grafdigger's cages and sometimes they pithing needle ezuri. Hitting 4 or 5 of these will often win you the game.
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I've been thinking of what to include in my sideboard, Leads or Shaper's Sanctuary. I feel like both have their merits and I still have not decided yet. What do you guys think? This is on GW Vizier.
it looks like a tech over Lifecrafter's bestiary. More expensive to cast but u don't have to pay a toll afterwards to extra draws, and exchanges the scry for a lord effect. It probably comes in the same matchups that bestiary does - control and attrition. If he manages to get the combo online he could elfball, although then again you could do the same with bestiary.
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I just started toying with the deck and tomorrow is the first FNM where I am going to test it. Can somebody answer few questions? I'm playing non Vizier Abzan version with Shamans and Ezuri.
- when siding in what is the first thing we side out? is it a creature for a creature?
- I know being a CoCo deck the more noncreature spells we side in the worse. Is Shapers Sanctuary worth siding in or do we just approve their spot removal and play over it?
- is a split of 2 Decays and 2 Paths good or is one better than the other in Elves?
- how good is Essence Warden? Is it worth playing and if so against what?
this is my current SB
3x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Lead the Stampede
1x Rest in Peace
1x Stony Silence
1x Kataki
1x Essence Warden
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
I'm not sure you understood my post.
I didn't mention anything about playing heritage before elite; yes u can t1 heritage and t2 elite, or u can t1 dork and then t2 elite + heritage. But thats not the point I'm making. I'm making the point that you don't have Dwynen's elite, presumably their slots have been given to prowess, and this is going to negatively affect the odds of your explosive starts. As far as noncreature spells go Collected Company would be something I'd rather see in my starting hand in game 1.
I couldn't understand the second and third sentence.
Attrition is indeed not a good strategy against prowess, but again that wasn't my point. I said that if you were to play against noninteractive decks, prowess is basically a dead card.
I don't even know why black sac is mentioned here. What does that mean?
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OK, this is readable.
Yes, but you scoop against Baral, and there are more Barals in Game 1s than Pyroclasms. Having Elite (which is 2 elves in 1 card) in that MU is far better than having wipe insurance in the main which very few decks sport.
If its targeted removal you're playing against, Shaper's Sanctuary is far superior in terms of speed, ease of casting and the payoff.
And still. Dwynen's elite excels against Pyroclasms. Counterintuitive? 1 dork and 1 elite will put 4 power on the board and u can slowroll the opponent into casting their precious wipe.
Creature based decks: we are the fastest creature based deck in the format with DSZ and bushwhacker zoo largely being fringe. If you play your list against Merfolk your Prowesses actually set you behind. What other creature decks are you concerned about? I'm really curious.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Gilt-Leaf Palace
2 Forest
1 Westvale Abbey
Creatures (38):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Boreal Druid
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Collected Company
3 Warping Wail
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Lead the Stampede
1 Elvish Champion
1 ?
1 ?
1 ?
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This is not as strong as turn 1 dork into turn 2 warden and heritage. They will bolt the dork or warden in response to casting heritage... BUT, you still have a mana open for maybe another dork so you can pop heritage into 3 mana.
It's an extra card sure, but there is no risk.
That's the difference. And it is why Dwynen's is in few lists. In fact most elf decks run 20 1 drops.
Correct me if I'm wrong but when I think of attrition, I think of smallpox. And yes, prowess of the fair single-handedly beats attrition from start to finish. Dwynen's is completely gone after 2 effects. If you love Dwynen's so much why don't you make a bramblewood paragon deck and pop out a 3/3 and 2/2 for two mana.
PotF lets you chump block for a long time WITHOUT affecting your elf count. I don't have CoCo, its like 70 dollars for a playset I think. That's as much as my entire deck.
Shaper's Sanctuary is a great card in some matchups. That would be a more reasonable debate.
PS: I've been having some fun with this list:
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Essence Warden
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Shaman of the Pack
1 Regal Force
3 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Growing Rites of Itlimoc
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Unclaimed Territory
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Woodland Cemetery
7 Forest
1 Swamp
Don't have much glued in the sideboard yet except for some sages and relics. I'm always tinkering with different cards. Garruk and rites serve as Genesis support. I'm on the fence about lead vs. life crafter's. Both have won and lost games.
And is it a lot better if they bolt your dork with prowess on the stack? How many games have you gotten in with elves exactly? Any opponent worth their salt will be killing your turn 1 dork if they want to, before your turn 2 mainphase, and not wait until you can use that mana for something.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you cast heritage last (as you should) then it doesn't matter, you will be flat out of mana and can't chain off if they remove something with heritage on the stack (as they should).
Of course there is a risk. The risk is everytime you meet an opponent who's not playing the attrition game, you're playing with a irrelevant 2 drop. Storm, Etron, affinity care very little about your prowess tech. You're better off developing your board.
And Dwynen's elite being in few lists? Its in virtually every top 8 elves list ever, so what the heck are you on about?
That's a very unusual card to first come to mind. Attrition generally brings to mind bolts and snaps in grixis colors and jund strategies, not a fringe deck like 8rack. And I hardly think your prowess of the fair does well against an ensnaring bridge deck that focuses more on hand disruption than removal. If you're playing against a smallpox brew then there is little room for discussion because only you know what you're facing.
What exactly are you chump blocking for a long time? If its a tarmogoyf I don't see how you're going to win that eventually. Reality smasher? Goblin Electromancer? Etched Champion? I'm naming tier 1 decks here, but do let me know what you're facing exactly.
In the first place dropping elite for prowess maindeck was never a reasonable choice. So its funny you would bring up reasonable debate. Shaper's sanctuary is arguably a better card than Prowess and even then its not maindecked. That's how far off you are from reasonable debate, to borrow the phrase.
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But I really just have one question for u? Have you tried potf?
Yea your first sentence doesn't make any sense. We know that tapping for mana can be done in response. Nobody questioned that. I said the opponent would bolt your dork before your next turn, while it is summoning sick. Comprende?
Yes, I've tried potf. 3 copies in the sideboard. Now with Selfless spirit, shaper's sanc, its simply not necessary.
And you got pyroclasmed 3 times in the first 6 turns, hmmm. Are you aware that your tokens dying doesn't produce more tokens? You haven't been playing the card wrong, have you?
Look, I don't really see a point in continuing this debate. You're playing a deck without Elves company, drops one of the core elves, and now apparently Garruk is in the picture as well. And in a meta that has pyroclasms and Doubling season. If your brew works in your unique meta, that's great. But don't argue against tested and proven meta decks and core staples, its just weird.
Said it once and will say it again: Dwynen's elite has been in virtually every top 8-ing deck in the recent past, and there is a reason for that.
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Also, that 3 pyroclasm'd game included a doubling season against 3 planeswalkers post ultimate on the same turn. It was actually probably the most fun I've had because there was a sequence of turns of each of us presenting lethal and then responding. Suffice to say Genesis wave beat 3 ults of planeswalkers the very next turn. Potf wasn't in my deck on that matchup, point is there's plenty of non-creature permanents coco/chord can't use based on probabilities. Just because elves has had some moderate success over the past few years doesn't mean you should immediately accept a pure aggro route as the only thing elves can do. There is absolutely no reason to not test every single option available. Learning the why thousand-year elixir can win and lost games gives added experience to evaluating cards that come out soon
You're in the wrong thread. This is the Coco Elves thread where we've established the following core cards are critical to the strength of the deck:
Collected Company
Dwynen's Elite
Not running them simply puts you in a different category of elves; so I recommend posting in the Combo Elves primer.
Bring in your grindy stuff (walkers, leads, kitchen finks etc). Its supposed to be bad.
Shaman is your best friend against bridge, and Lead the Stampede is the best card in that MU overall. Maindeck wipe sounds bad, if you see wipes a lot, you can either play Fecundity or just lean on Ezuri. If you are playing GW chord, Aegis of the Gods is a good chord target, but I would still much rather have Leads. Adjustments I made included Essence wardens main, Leads in the side(I ran chords main).
Empty your hand, all the time every time. Don't think about the bridge. Storing cards is suicide. Cards that help this match up are many:
Shaman of the Pack - Kills across bridges and often wins you the race against racks.
Essence Warden - greatly helps you in the race against the racks even as you empty your hand and shorten their clock.
Lead the Stampede - They hate this card, for obvious reasons.
Scavenging Ooze - board this in, do not board it out. Raven's Crime.
Fracturing Gust - clears all racks and grafdigger's cages and sometimes they pithing needle ezuri. Hitting 4 or 5 of these will often win you the game.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Who ever mentioned Vanquisher's Banner?
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Yea you might want to bring up some context next time.
Did these lists put up good results? If they didn't then they're not really worth discussing.
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it looks like a tech over Lifecrafter's bestiary. More expensive to cast but u don't have to pay a toll afterwards to extra draws, and exchanges the scry for a lord effect. It probably comes in the same matchups that bestiary does - control and attrition. If he manages to get the combo online he could elfball, although then again you could do the same with bestiary.
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MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
- when siding in what is the first thing we side out? is it a creature for a creature?
- I know being a CoCo deck the more noncreature spells we side in the worse. Is Shapers Sanctuary worth siding in or do we just approve their spot removal and play over it?
- is a split of 2 Decays and 2 Paths good or is one better than the other in Elves?
- how good is Essence Warden? Is it worth playing and if so against what?
this is my current SB
3x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Lead the Stampede
1x Rest in Peace
1x Stony Silence
1x Kataki
1x Essence Warden
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric