1. I am opting for two different mainboard flex slots compared to my GP Brisbane list in Selfless Spirit and Mirror Entity. Selfless Spirit has consistently impressed me even against decks without sweepers, where it can become a once off Spellskite that can chip in for two damage every turn. This card has taken the slot of Spellskite in my list, which has continued to fall out of favour ever since Twin and Infect were banned out of the format.
As for Mirror Entity, this is largely Syreal's suggestion and I think the cards inclusion has merit. Without tripping over ourselves on the Legendary rule, Mirror Entity can act as Ezuri #4 and help us overcome tricky board states as well as provide a niche interaction against Living End (x=0 in response to Living End being cast to sack the team). Let's hope I don't get Mindslaver'd or Emrakul'd with this guy on board ;). Scavenging Ooze is a premium card in many, many top tier matchups. Dredge, Burn, Shadow, Control, Company to name a few. A card you are never unhappy to see. Eternal Witness also helps my ability to grind a little better throughout matches. These mainboard bullets as well as the MB Lead The Stampede help me be a little more pre-boarded against some of the grindier decks in the format.
Reclamation Sage just doesn't pull its weight as a MB card as it did 4 months ago, and has thusly been relegated to the SB.
2. Mainboard Lead the Stampede. Again, not a card I'm particularly high on, but after some back and forth with Syreal I've decided to swap one MB Chord of Calling for a LTS. In a format heavy with discard, the ability to cast a mini glimpse of nature is valuable in top deck wars and naturally to recover after a sweeper. This goes against my usual play style, as I'm usually a very measured player and will only ever overextend into a boardwipe if I know I've got an answer to it. I.E. chipping in enough damage while leaving 5 permanents untapped for a Chord for 2 to find Selfless Spirit. As I've said previously, Elves is a very strong deck as a creature deck that is able to provide pressure on the opponents end step as well as your own turn, so as such I'll be a little conflicted casting this card as I'm very much not used to it. However, I think it's a fine concession to include it in a metagame such as the one we are currently faced with. It's only a 3-1 split anyway! I'm looking forward to trying it out.
3. 3 Rest In Peace. I'm usually a little hesitant to try out non-creature sideboard cards that aren't Path to Exile, Affinity hate or Nissa, Vital force (god I love this card), but I really want a way to fight decks such as Living End, Dredge and Reanimator decks which are relatively unfavorable. I'll be curious to test with these cards that I sadly cannot chord/randomly coco into in a pinch, but for the matchups I want them in they are just massive hoses so I should perhaps just aggressively mulligan into them anyway. To include these cards, I've given up Kataki, One Finks and a Scavenging Ooze.
Feel free to ask me any questions you may have about the list. I do think GB may be slightly better positioned than GW atm looking at the Top 8 decks of the format, but I like the options provided by having a white sideboard and, of course, Modern is a format that rewards playing what you know. I'm also very used to winning games without SOTP these days.
Thanks for the post! I like the look of it, but I'm a bit leery of the 3 Rest in Peace as well. I know Relic of Progenitus isn't the hoser that Rest in Peace is, but often times its enough. @Rothgar13 from the merfolk forum had a nice write up on this subject. He doesn't talk about elves specifically, but I think this advice is still sound when applied to this deck. It's all in the first couple paragraphs of this article. http://tappedout.net/mtg-articles/2017/jul/9/rothgars-competitive-corner-let-hatred-flow-throug/
My LGS hosted its Tuesday Modern event and I went 4-0.
Round 1(2-0)Jeskai
Game 1: Had a fast hand on the play. He didn't interrupt my turn two play.
Game 2: Kept a hand with some Nettles and Visionaries and a Chord. His turn 5 play was casting Verdict and I responded with Chord to get Selfless Spirit so safe the others. Resolving two Archdruids eventuality beat him down.
Round 2 (2-0) Golgari Counters (Power Conduit,Young Wolf)
Game 1: I Kept a risky hand that paid off for a fast start.
Game 2: He managed to get three Blood Artist in play but I swung for 44 so I won with Artists on the stack.
Round 3 (2-0) Jund
Game 1: Took advantage of him tapping out on turn 4 to drop a Dwynens Elite and heritage to hold up Collected Company EOT. Couple Shamans over the rest of game punished him for his Dark Confidant triggers.
Game 2: Kept a super slow hand and he didn't draw any hand disuption. Fecundity was the backbone to this specific game. The game board stalled since we were both at 5 Life. Eventually I drew another Chord with 9 Lands to search for Ezuri and win.
Round 4 (2-1) EldraziTron
Game 1:(W) Another fast hand. Threatened lethal on turn 3 and again on 4 (I was on Draw)
Game 2:(L) Very long game. Nearly won but a combination pithing needle on Ezuri and his deathtouch lifelink. He won after I alpha striked.
Game 3:(W) Got a hand that allowed me to drop a few elites and swing for 10 on turn 3.
@Syreal94 it's been awhile since you've posted! Glad to see you're still around. What does your current build look like? I put together Juza's vizier list, but I don't think the combo is where I want to be.
Still on GB, think its a better call right now because it slaps around the non-Grixis DS variants, and has a good chance against the Grixis DS variants anyway. Also, for the most part I think Shaman is largely indispensable and has been the best Elf addition to the deck for a long time. Also, a Scooze in the main feels good right now. This is likely the list I'll play this weekend.
As for Mirror Entity, this is largely Syreal's suggestion and I think the cards inclusion has merit. Without tripping over ourselves on the Legendary rule, Mirror Entity can act as Ezuri #4 and help us overcome tricky board states as well as provide a niche interaction against Living End (x=0 in response to Living End being cast to sack the team).
It also costs 1 mana less if you want to fetch it in response to Anger, and make your dudes 4/4s and then kill them next turn. It's been relevant before and it'll probably be relevant again.
Edit: Also, we can get under a bridge with Mirror Entity if Lantern doesn't dump.
Do you guys think Loaming Shaman or Scavenging Ooze are better to be run in this deck? I currently run 1 Ooze main and am considering either another in side or the LS.
Ooze is far more versatile so if you're choosing between one of the two, I'd go with ooze. Ooze lets you bounce back after a wipe, serves lifegain and GY utility, and is a serious beater when things are going bad.
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What was the consensus for Driven // Despair? Seems pretty bonkers if both modes are used by T4 and is resilient against discard because of aftermath. Best case scenario would be to cast both modes t3 and attack with 4-5 Elves which is pure value.
I'm not sure this is what we need. If you are just attacking with a few elves and the opponent has any type of board presence the trample is irrelevant and you're probably just making a bad attack since most elves will die from a slight gust of wind. Lead the Stampede is just a better option as you can still cast this on turn 3 to draw 3-5 cards without relying on your opponent to have absolute nothing on board. Also, casting both modes on T3 means you're removing an attacker from combat lessening the strength of Driven//Despair.
I'm not too sure that it's all that great against decks with discard either. If they T1 IoK or Thoughtseize you, they'll grab a mana dork which makes Drive//Despair weaker as you need a board presence for it to be effective, or they grab something even more powerful like Chord or Collected Company.
I should state I have done zero testing with this card and this is just my initial opinion. Definitely try out the card if you think it has a shot at doing something productive!
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Right but his post said you save them from Anger then kill them next turn. Won't they all die EOT when the effect wears off and the damage kills the elves?
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Right but his post said you save them from Anger then kill them next turn. Won't they all die EOT when the effect wears off and the damage kills the elves?
They'll stay alive and then you get to kill your opponent with the Mirror Entity is what I was talking about.
Right but his post said you save them from Anger then kill them next turn. Won't they all die EOT when the effect wears off and the damage kills the elves?
The damage from anger and Mirror entity's ability wear off simultaneously so they live.
It's the same as using a pump spell to have a creature survive lightning bolt... if I'm understanding you correctly.
Right but his post said you save them from Anger then kill them next turn. Won't they all die EOT when the effect wears off and the damage kills the elves?
The damage from anger and Mirror entity's ability wear off simultaneously so they live.
It's the same as using a pump spell to have a creature survive lightning bolt... if I'm understanding you correctly.
Okay yeah I got it. Must be having a brain fart. Thanks!
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I'm not sure this is what we need. If you are just attacking with a few elves and the opponent has any type of board presence the trample is irrelevant and you're probably just making a bad attack since most elves will die from a slight gust of wind. Lead the Stampede is just a better option as you can still cast this on turn 3 to draw 3-5 cards without relying on your opponent to have absolute nothing on board. Also, casting both modes on T3 means you're removing an attacker from combat lessening the strength of Driven//Despair.
I'm not too sure that it's all that great against decks with discard either. If they T1 IoK or Thoughtseize you, they'll grab a mana dork which makes Drive//Despair weaker as you need a board presence for it to be effective, or they grab something even more powerful like Chord or Collected Company.
I should state I have done zero testing with this card and this is just my initial opinion. Definitely try out the card if you think it has a shot at doing something productive!
Driven // Despair has good synergy in a shaman build imo. It does everything the deck wants. Like you pointed out, its weakest application is trample but that's not where its strength lies. It gives card draw (more creatures for shaman and even gets CoCo unlike Lead), gives elves menace (wincon that can finish Shaman's job and makes it difficult for opponent to block), and strips his hand (hopefully removing any counterplay to our strategy).
When against discard and removal, Chord is comparitevly weaker. It becomes an expensive spell unlike either mode of Driven and has no counterplay against discard (no aftermath).
When things are going BAD, you have hardly any board presence. How is Driven // Despair in this situation? Horrific.
Therefore, Driven // Despair is INDISPUTABLY a win-more card.
That's not necessarily true. Take for example my game against Abzan Midrange yesterday. I start off with a decent hand, 2 lands, 2 dorks, 1 archdruid, 1 visionary, and 1 chord. He is on the play and thoughtseizes my archdruid then I play dork. He plays Grim flayer then I play dork and visionary drawing into archdruid. He plays another Thoughtseize with goyf and gets my 2nd archdruid then I play dwynen's elite.
So now I still have chord in hand with 5 Elves and 3 lands on the field. The path he eventually used would make any chord target an instant Exile. Enter Driven, if he chose to discard it I'd have an archdruid on the field and a threat to his hand and life. If he didn't choose to discard it I'd come ahead in value from both modes.
When is Lead a better card? Like you mentioned, when I draw it with little to no Elves on the field. That being said, Driven offers a more proactive approach in drawing ahead of time for only two mana or better yet, discarding their lands needed to cast Damnation. If I'm lucky I can discard their whole hand.
I'm not convinced yet that Driven // Despair is a winmore card. I'll take what you both have said into consideration while at FNM playtesting a set in GB Elves tomorrow.
I'm not sure this is what we need. If you are just attacking with a few elves and the opponent has any type of board presence the trample is irrelevant and you're probably just making a bad attack since most elves will die from a slight gust of wind. Lead the Stampede is just a better option as you can still cast this on turn 3 to draw 3-5 cards without relying on your opponent to have absolute nothing on board. Also, casting both modes on T3 means you're removing an attacker from combat lessening the strength of Driven//Despair.
I'm not too sure that it's all that great against decks with discard either. If they T1 IoK or Thoughtseize you, they'll grab a mana dork which makes Drive//Despair weaker as you need a board presence for it to be effective, or they grab something even more powerful like Chord or Collected Company.
I should state I have done zero testing with this card and this is just my initial opinion. Definitely try out the card if you think it has a shot at doing something productive!
Driven // Despair has good synergy in a shaman build imo. It does everything the deck wants. Like you pointed out, its weakest application is trample but that's not where its strength lies. It gives card draw (more creatures for shaman and even gets CoCo unlike Lead), gives elves menace (wincon that can finish Shaman's job and makes it difficult for opponent to block), and strips his hand (hopefully removing any counterplay to our strategy).
When against discard and removal, Chord is comparitevly weaker. It becomes an expensive spell unlike either mode of Driven and has no counterplay against discard (no aftermath).
When things are going BAD, you have hardly any board presence. How is Driven // Despair in this situation? Horrific.
Therefore, Driven // Despair is INDISPUTABLY a win-more card.
That's not necessarily true. Take for example my game against Abzan Midrange yesterday. I start off with a decent hand, 2 lands, 2 dorks, 1 archdruid, 1 visionary, and 1 chord. He is on the play and thoughtseizes my archdruid then I play dork. He plays Grim flayer then I play dork and visionary drawing into archdruid. He plays another Thoughtseize with goyf and gets my 2nd archdruid then I play dwynen's elite.
So now I still have chord in hand with 5 Elves and 3 lands on the field. The path he eventually used would make any chord target an instant Exile. Enter Driven, if he chose to discard it I'd have an archdruid on the field and a threat to his hand and life. If he didn't choose to discard it I'd come ahead in value from both modes.
When is Lead a better card? Like you mentioned, when I draw it with little to no Elves on the field. That being said, Driven offers a more proactive approach in drawing ahead of time for only two mana or better yet, discarding their lands needed to cast Damnation. If I'm lucky I can discard their whole hand.
I'm not convinced yet that Driven // Despair is a winmore card. I'll take what you both have said into consideration while at FNM playtesting a set in GB Elves tomorrow.
Lead is not a better card when you draw it with little to no elves on the field. Lead is a better card always. Because if you have enough elves to swing with that you draw more cards than with Lead, you probably don't really need it.
If that's not convincing, try this: against decks where you need to refuel, like jeskai/grixis/jund, how effective is Driven going to be? They will frequently play attrition games with you. When you topdeck Driven in a midrange attrition fest, its going to be dead. Unlike Driven, Lead is never dead. It will ALWAYS translate into cards (unless you somehow reveal 5 lands/cocos, in which case my condolences). In your example above, you have 5 elves and he has flayer + goyf. If you attack, he'll profitably block 2 of your elves leaving you with 3 while you draw 3. Thats basically trading in 2 creatures and a card in hand for 3 cards. Its a 3 for 3. I am not impressed.
My firm stance on this is that you want Lead if you want card draw, and not rely on having an army to make the card draw at all.
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When against discard and removal, Chord is comparitevly weaker. It becomes an expensive spell unlike either mode of Driven and has no counterplay against discard (no aftermath).
The comparison isn't between chord and driven, it should be lead and driven as those are the two competing for the slot. And against discard and spot removal they are taking away your threats which is what you need to make the card effective. I also play merfolk, and against discard and spot removal decks like abzan, jund, or grixis ds, aether vials come out for more threats, because what good is it when all the creatures in your hand have been picked clean. Simiarly how will you push damage through and refill your hand if you've already discarded your threats or they've dropped any type of roadblock.
That's not necessarily true. Take for example my game against Abzan Midrange yesterday. I start off with a decent hand, 2 lands, 2 dorks, 1 archdruid, 1 visionary, and 1 chord. He is on the play and thoughtseizes my archdruid then I play dork. He plays Grim flayer then I play dork and visionary drawing into archdruid. He plays another Thoughtseize with goyf and gets my 2nd archdruid then I play dwynen's elite.
This was my point about the card. He had a board presence so any attack wouldn't be profitable unless you were killing him with Ezuri. You play dwynen's elite so it has summoning sickness. Your available attack is 3 1/1s in to a 2/2 and a minimum 2/3 with no land to cast driven since you cast elite. Assuming he does nothing next turn and you cast driven, you'll get in 3 damage, lose an elite, a dork, and draw 3 cards. You lose 2 cards board and 1 card in hand to draw 3 which is net 0. You still want to keep a critical mass of elves on the field to maximize shaman or ezuri so Lead would be better than Chord or Drivem in this spot.
Before I continue, let's not dismiss the fact that you're both disregarding Driven // Despair's discard effect which is always relevant in midrange/control matchups. It's straight value which is what makes Lead good against these decks in the first place. However, unlike lead I'm not only filling up my hand but disrupting theirs as well.
You're both also completely disregarding Despair's menace effect. Here's a fresh reminder. Menace (This creature can't be blocked except by two or more creatures.)
With this information in mind, let's go back to my example but this time with a little more detail.
His T1: Thoughtseize>Archdruid
My T1: Dork
T2: Flayer
T2: Dork+Visionary
T3: Goyf + Thoughtseize>Archdruid
Atks with flayer for effect
T3: Dwynen's Elite, chord in hand
T4: Shambling + Goyf
Atks with Flayer + goyf, 1 mana up
T4: Keep drawing into lands, save mana for chord. He decides to do nothing.
T5: Siege Rhino, 1 mana up
Attacks with both Flayer and Goyf
I chord for ezuri, he paths
Now let's say I had Lead in my opener instead of chord, he'd obviously discard it right? If I top decked it, it'd be a great opportunity to refill my hand no doubt about it but so would Driven.
If I had Driven // Despair in my opener it'd be a tougher choice for him. He'd probably go for Driven even if it has aftermath. Abzan doesn't like us drawing cards. Now I have despair in the gy. Could he have played his turns differently with despair in my gy? Probably. Let's assume he didn't though. We go back to T4.
T4: Shambling + Goyf
Atks with Flayer + goyf, 1 mana up
T4: I cast despair, creatures get menace + discard effect. He has one blocker and path in hand. With path I have 4 creatures left. That's 4 of his cards discarded, and 4 damage to his life. At this point I can cast my archdruid next turn with no fear of it being killed because he is likely in top deck mode.
I still think both modes of Driven // Despair have potential in Elves. We can at least agree that in certain cases like mine, Chord is inferior to it. Ultimately, Lead vs Driven // Despair needs more comparative testing but I remain a believer. In any case, I'll have more information after tonight.
Thanks for reading - sorry if it's a lot - and thanks for poking my mind.
Would they really attack and leave themselves open knowing despair is in the yard? They have perfect information and you should assume your opponent is competent. And why would they take driven//despair with thoughtseize when it forces you to cast it and either make an unprofitable attack or no attack just to get it in the yard. They'll keep taking your threats and removing your board making driven//despair a dead card or at least less potent. If you get in to top deck mode, lead seems much better since you don't have to rely on having a positive board state for it to be effective.
GW Elves for Modern Season 2017
Creatures - 34
=======
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Eternal Witness
1 Mirror Entity
Instants/Sorceries - 8
===========
4 Collected Company
3 Chord of Calling
1 Lead the Stampede
Lands - 18
=======
4 Forest
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Temple Garden
1 Pendelhaven
Sideboard - 15
===========
3 Path to Exile
3 Rest In Peace
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Nissa, Vital Force/Phyrexian Revoker/Eidolon
2 Fracturing Gust
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric/Phyrexian Revoker/Nissa
2 Kitchen Finks
A few things to note:
1. I am opting for two different mainboard flex slots compared to my GP Brisbane list in Selfless Spirit and Mirror Entity. Selfless Spirit has consistently impressed me even against decks without sweepers, where it can become a once off Spellskite that can chip in for two damage every turn. This card has taken the slot of Spellskite in my list, which has continued to fall out of favour ever since Twin and Infect were banned out of the format.
As for Mirror Entity, this is largely Syreal's suggestion and I think the cards inclusion has merit. Without tripping over ourselves on the Legendary rule, Mirror Entity can act as Ezuri #4 and help us overcome tricky board states as well as provide a niche interaction against Living End (x=0 in response to Living End being cast to sack the team). Let's hope I don't get Mindslaver'd or Emrakul'd with this guy on board ;). Scavenging Ooze is a premium card in many, many top tier matchups. Dredge, Burn, Shadow, Control, Company to name a few. A card you are never unhappy to see. Eternal Witness also helps my ability to grind a little better throughout matches. These mainboard bullets as well as the MB Lead The Stampede help me be a little more pre-boarded against some of the grindier decks in the format.
Reclamation Sage just doesn't pull its weight as a MB card as it did 4 months ago, and has thusly been relegated to the SB.
2. Mainboard Lead the Stampede. Again, not a card I'm particularly high on, but after some back and forth with Syreal I've decided to swap one MB Chord of Calling for a LTS. In a format heavy with discard, the ability to cast a mini glimpse of nature is valuable in top deck wars and naturally to recover after a sweeper. This goes against my usual play style, as I'm usually a very measured player and will only ever overextend into a boardwipe if I know I've got an answer to it. I.E. chipping in enough damage while leaving 5 permanents untapped for a Chord for 2 to find Selfless Spirit. As I've said previously, Elves is a very strong deck as a creature deck that is able to provide pressure on the opponents end step as well as your own turn, so as such I'll be a little conflicted casting this card as I'm very much not used to it. However, I think it's a fine concession to include it in a metagame such as the one we are currently faced with. It's only a 3-1 split anyway! I'm looking forward to trying it out.
3. 3 Rest In Peace. I'm usually a little hesitant to try out non-creature sideboard cards that aren't Path to Exile, Affinity hate or Nissa, Vital force (god I love this card), but I really want a way to fight decks such as Living End, Dredge and Reanimator decks which are relatively unfavorable. I'll be curious to test with these cards that I sadly cannot chord/randomly coco into in a pinch, but for the matchups I want them in they are just massive hoses so I should perhaps just aggressively mulligan into them anyway. To include these cards, I've given up Kataki, One Finks and a Scavenging Ooze.
Feel free to ask me any questions you may have about the list. I do think GB may be slightly better positioned than GW atm looking at the Top 8 decks of the format, but I like the options provided by having a white sideboard and, of course, Modern is a format that rewards playing what you know. I'm also very used to winning games without SOTP these days.
Cheers.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Round 1(2-0)Jeskai
Game 1: Had a fast hand on the play. He didn't interrupt my turn two play.
Game 2: Kept a hand with some Nettles and Visionaries and a Chord. His turn 5 play was casting Verdict and I responded with Chord to get Selfless Spirit so safe the others. Resolving two Archdruids eventuality beat him down.
Round 2 (2-0) Golgari Counters (Power Conduit,Young Wolf)
Game 1: I Kept a risky hand that paid off for a fast start.
Game 2: He managed to get three Blood Artist in play but I swung for 44 so I won with Artists on the stack.
Round 3 (2-0) Jund
Game 1: Took advantage of him tapping out on turn 4 to drop a Dwynens Elite and heritage to hold up Collected Company EOT. Couple Shamans over the rest of game punished him for his Dark Confidant triggers.
Game 2: Kept a super slow hand and he didn't draw any hand disuption. Fecundity was the backbone to this specific game. The game board stalled since we were both at 5 Life. Eventually I drew another Chord with 9 Lands to search for Ezuri and win.
Round 4 (2-1) EldraziTron
Game 1:(W) Another fast hand. Threatened lethal on turn 3 and again on 4 (I was on Draw)
Game 2:(L) Very long game. Nearly won but a combination pithing needle on Ezuri and his deathtouch lifelink. He won after I alpha striked.
Game 3:(W) Got a hand that allowed me to drop a few elites and swing for 10 on turn 3.
This weekend is an IQ I plan to attend.
Still on GB, think its a better call right now because it slaps around the non-Grixis DS variants, and has a good chance against the Grixis DS variants anyway. Also, for the most part I think Shaman is largely indispensable and has been the best Elf addition to the deck for a long time. Also, a Scooze in the main feels good right now. This is likely the list I'll play this weekend.
3 Forest
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Pendelhaven
1 Westvale Abbey // Orhmendal, Profane Prince
//35:53
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Eternal Witness
4 Collected Company
3 Chord of Calling
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lead the Stampede
2 Dismember
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 ??????? (Chameleon Colossus I guess???)
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Nissa, Vital Force
It also costs 1 mana less if you want to fetch it in response to Anger, and make your dudes 4/4s and then kill them next turn. It's been relevant before and it'll probably be relevant again.
Edit: Also, we can get under a bridge with Mirror Entity if Lantern doesn't dump.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
I'm not too sure that it's all that great against decks with discard either. If they T1 IoK or Thoughtseize you, they'll grab a mana dork which makes Drive//Despair weaker as you need a board presence for it to be effective, or they grab something even more powerful like Chord or Collected Company.
I should state I have done zero testing with this card and this is just my initial opinion. Definitely try out the card if you think it has a shot at doing something productive!
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
When you've got a ton of guys on the board.
ergo; you are already doing well or winning.
When things are going BAD, you have hardly any board presence. How is Driven // Despair in this situation? Horrific.
Therefore, Driven // Despair is INDISPUTABLY a win-more card.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
How does Mirror Entity protect against Anger of the Gods?
STANDARD:
RRRMono RedRRR
MODERN:
BGBeatdown ElvesBG
GWDevoted Druid ComboGW
EDH:
URGMaelstrom WandererURG
BBBSheoldred, Whispering OneBBB
BGNath of the Gilt-LeafBG
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It can turn all your elves in to 4/4s.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Right but his post said you save them from Anger then kill them next turn. Won't they all die EOT when the effect wears off and the damage kills the elves?
STANDARD:
RRRMono RedRRR
MODERN:
BGBeatdown ElvesBG
GWDevoted Druid ComboGW
EDH:
URGMaelstrom WandererURG
BBBSheoldred, Whispering OneBBB
BGNath of the Gilt-LeafBG
Looking for Knowledge Pools! All languages, conditions, foil/non-foil, etc. PM me with your Pools and we can work something out
They'll stay alive and then you get to kill your opponent with the Mirror Entity is what I was talking about.
The damage from anger and Mirror entity's ability wear off simultaneously so they live.
It's the same as using a pump spell to have a creature survive lightning bolt... if I'm understanding you correctly.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Okay yeah I got it. Must be having a brain fart. Thanks!
STANDARD:
RRRMono RedRRR
MODERN:
BGBeatdown ElvesBG
GWDevoted Druid ComboGW
EDH:
URGMaelstrom WandererURG
BBBSheoldred, Whispering OneBBB
BGNath of the Gilt-LeafBG
Looking for Knowledge Pools! All languages, conditions, foil/non-foil, etc. PM me with your Pools and we can work something out
Driven // Despair has good synergy in a shaman build imo. It does everything the deck wants. Like you pointed out, its weakest application is trample but that's not where its strength lies. It gives card draw (more creatures for shaman and even gets CoCo unlike Lead), gives elves menace (wincon that can finish Shaman's job and makes it difficult for opponent to block), and strips his hand (hopefully removing any counterplay to our strategy).
When against discard and removal, Chord is comparitevly weaker. It becomes an expensive spell unlike either mode of Driven and has no counterplay against discard (no aftermath).
That's not necessarily true. Take for example my game against Abzan Midrange yesterday. I start off with a decent hand, 2 lands, 2 dorks, 1 archdruid, 1 visionary, and 1 chord. He is on the play and thoughtseizes my archdruid then I play dork. He plays Grim flayer then I play dork and visionary drawing into archdruid. He plays another Thoughtseize with goyf and gets my 2nd archdruid then I play dwynen's elite.
So now I still have chord in hand with 5 Elves and 3 lands on the field. The path he eventually used would make any chord target an instant Exile. Enter Driven, if he chose to discard it I'd have an archdruid on the field and a threat to his hand and life. If he didn't choose to discard it I'd come ahead in value from both modes.
When is Lead a better card? Like you mentioned, when I draw it with little to no Elves on the field. That being said, Driven offers a more proactive approach in drawing ahead of time for only two mana or better yet, discarding their lands needed to cast Damnation. If I'm lucky I can discard their whole hand.
I'm not convinced yet that Driven // Despair is a winmore card. I'll take what you both have said into consideration while at FNM playtesting a set in GB Elves tomorrow.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
Lead is not a better card when you draw it with little to no elves on the field. Lead is a better card always. Because if you have enough elves to swing with that you draw more cards than with Lead, you probably don't really need it.
If that's not convincing, try this: against decks where you need to refuel, like jeskai/grixis/jund, how effective is Driven going to be? They will frequently play attrition games with you. When you topdeck Driven in a midrange attrition fest, its going to be dead. Unlike Driven, Lead is never dead. It will ALWAYS translate into cards (unless you somehow reveal 5 lands/cocos, in which case my condolences). In your example above, you have 5 elves and he has flayer + goyf. If you attack, he'll profitably block 2 of your elves leaving you with 3 while you draw 3. Thats basically trading in 2 creatures and a card in hand for 3 cards. Its a 3 for 3. I am not impressed.
My firm stance on this is that you want Lead if you want card draw, and not rely on having an army to make the card draw at all.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
The comparison isn't between chord and driven, it should be lead and driven as those are the two competing for the slot. And against discard and spot removal they are taking away your threats which is what you need to make the card effective. I also play merfolk, and against discard and spot removal decks like abzan, jund, or grixis ds, aether vials come out for more threats, because what good is it when all the creatures in your hand have been picked clean. Simiarly how will you push damage through and refill your hand if you've already discarded your threats or they've dropped any type of roadblock.
This was my point about the card. He had a board presence so any attack wouldn't be profitable unless you were killing him with Ezuri. You play dwynen's elite so it has summoning sickness. Your available attack is 3 1/1s in to a 2/2 and a minimum 2/3 with no land to cast driven since you cast elite. Assuming he does nothing next turn and you cast driven, you'll get in 3 damage, lose an elite, a dork, and draw 3 cards. You lose 2 cards board and 1 card in hand to draw 3 which is net 0. You still want to keep a critical mass of elves on the field to maximize shaman or ezuri so Lead would be better than Chord or Drivem in this spot.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
You're both also completely disregarding Despair's menace effect. Here's a fresh reminder. Menace (This creature can't be blocked except by two or more creatures.)
With this information in mind, let's go back to my example but this time with a little more detail.
His T1: Thoughtseize>Archdruid
My T1: Dork
T2: Flayer
T2: Dork+Visionary
T3: Goyf + Thoughtseize>Archdruid
Atks with flayer for effect
T3: Dwynen's Elite, chord in hand
T4: Shambling + Goyf
Atks with Flayer + goyf, 1 mana up
T4: Keep drawing into lands, save mana for chord. He decides to do nothing.
T5: Siege Rhino, 1 mana up
Attacks with both Flayer and Goyf
I chord for ezuri, he paths
Now let's say I had Lead in my opener instead of chord, he'd obviously discard it right? If I top decked it, it'd be a great opportunity to refill my hand no doubt about it but so would Driven.
If I had Driven // Despair in my opener it'd be a tougher choice for him. He'd probably go for Driven even if it has aftermath. Abzan doesn't like us drawing cards. Now I have despair in the gy. Could he have played his turns differently with despair in my gy? Probably. Let's assume he didn't though. We go back to T4.
T4: Shambling + Goyf
Atks with Flayer + goyf, 1 mana up
T4: I cast despair, creatures get menace + discard effect. He has one blocker and path in hand. With path I have 4 creatures left. That's 4 of his cards discarded, and 4 damage to his life. At this point I can cast my archdruid next turn with no fear of it being killed because he is likely in top deck mode.
I still think both modes of Driven // Despair have potential in Elves. We can at least agree that in certain cases like mine, Chord is inferior to it. Ultimately, Lead vs Driven // Despair needs more comparative testing but I remain a believer. In any case, I'll have more information after tonight.
Thanks for reading - sorry if it's a lot - and thanks for poking my mind.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG