Thanks! To be honest one of the thoughts going through my head as I played the tournament was that I wished I had thoughtseizes in the board, so I definitely agree with that one. Fatal push could have helped a lot of bad matchups like you said so that's probably very reasonable as well. Could have definitely went down a Gust and the stains, probably a Scooze too to make room.
Like I said I definitely punted at least one match against Shadow but it still didn't feel super amazing like I thought it was. Could have just been variance or me playing the matchup wrong though.
It's funny because I had the same thoughts about needing Thoughtseize at gp vegas. I'm still on the GW train due to testing 17 lands and needing 4 canopy - something you can relate to - but I might switch to GB if I feel that the lack of Thoughtseize and fatal push is overshadowing GW's strengths.
Everytime I've played this MU, it comes down to our advantage being in Numbers. Often times I would just stall the board until I reach critical mass, combo off, or draw a CoCo and hope they don't kill all my threats in one turn. Only stall in g1 because it becomes difficult postboard due to board wipes. Ultimately I've been fortunate enough to play against DS players who prefer anger which is much easier to deal with through selfless and burrenton.
Two questions about the GB build (but also abzan)
first question: is Lost legacy a viable option? I was thinking to split with stain the mind, the reson being it's easier to cast in a more interacting matchup (you need 3 mana instead of any combination of 5 lands and creatures). The double black scares me a bit.
second question: in the fetch versions (in which i really rarely find myself without forest lands) Arbor Elf is a strictly better llanowar elves as it can tap for multiple colours (sometimes we will need to produce multiple black for Shaman of The Pack or black spells). Isn't it a better choice than boreal druid?
Double black would require 20 black sources to reliably cast on turn 2 or 19 to cast it by turn 3. That's more than out total land count so Lost Legacy sadly doesn't fit in our deck.
As for you second question, the only lands Arbor Elf is able to untap are basic Forests and a copy of Overgrown Tomb/Temple Garden. It doesn't work with Razorverge Thicket/Blooming Marsh/Gilt-Leaf Palace/Cavern of Souls/Horizon Canopy which makes it pretty useless as they usually represent our mana base.
Is there a consensus on which is better...Shaman (GB) Elves or the Vizier (GW) Elves? I keep seeing people talking about the Vizier deck, but not seeing it doing well. Sorry, just a little confused on which direction to take.
Sugestions?
The list is the normal one, Shaman main, White side stuff, Stain the Mind, etc.
Canopy is too painful for a manabase that runs fetches and shocks. I recommend swapping canopy for Razorverge thicket. You need at least 3 forests for paths and gqs. You're running too many fetches and not enough targets; I would go 4 fetches, 5-6 targets. You might have to shave off a cavern or two.
This would be my ideal list for abzan. It has enough black sources for noncreature spells and definitely enough for silver bullets. It has enough white sources for silver bullets but not enough for noncreature spells which is how I would play. Ymmv.
Is there a consensus on which is better...Shaman (GB) Elves or the Vizier (GW) Elves? I keep seeing people talking about the Vizier deck, but not seeing it doing well. Sorry, just a little confused on which direction to take.
Historically, the GW version has had more success in large scale tournaments. To further explain, the combo version placed in a GP recently. Before that it was straight GW beat down that placed in GPs. Not to disregard GB's power, maybe the deck just hasn't found the right pilot.
Thank you for the reply. Trying to figure the better option for meta of : Tron, Merfolk, Jund, Abzan Company, Burn and Goblins.
It all depends on your playstyle and what you want in the sb.
GW has two paths, one in beat down and one in combo. Running 4 canopy is a must imo. A little more consistent because all your creatures are green in the mb - can't cast shaman off of heritage. Mb has a lower cmc on average. For the sb, GW has the best silver bullet creatures and the best noncreature spells.
GB gives you a nice alternate wincon in the form of shaman of the pack. It's probably the best list to run Lead the Stampede in if chord of calling isn't your thing. You'll have access to some of the most popular cards in modern like Fatal Push and Thoughtseize which are well positioned in the meta. Lastly, Ewits are really good in this style of elves.
Has anyone done anymore work on throne of the god pharaoh? If so how has it been performing?
I'm still testing it. I've been running 2x mainboard because I want to see it more often than not to get a feel for it. As has been mentioned though, it's Legendary, so seeing the 2nd one usually isn't great. I've liked what I've seen so far out of it. Landing one early along with the usual horde of Elves who can tap or be tapped for mana is glorious! Also, topdecking one late can be a nice surprise play to end your turn with lethally tapped Elves. My local meta has a lot of Ensnaring Bridge type stuff going on, so any extra chance to damage without attacking is useful for me. And if it doesn't seem like it'll be useful in a matchup after Game 1, it's easily sided out for silver bullets or specific deck hate.
I'm still testing it. I've been running 2x mainboard because I want to see it more often than not to get a feel for it. As has been mentioned though, it's Legendary, so seeing the 2nd one usually isn't great. I've liked what I've seen so far out of it. Landing one early along with the usual horde of Elves who can tap or be tapped for mana is glorious! Also, topdecking one late can be a nice surprise play to end your turn with lethally tapped Elves. My local meta has a lot of Ensnaring Bridge type stuff going on, so any extra chance to damage without attacking is useful for me. And if it doesn't seem like it'll be useful in a matchup after Game 1, it's easily sided out for silver bullets or specific deck hate.
Don't forget that Vizier combo is good against Ensnaring. Devoted Druid can swing with 0 power then get buffed.
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You're right in that Shaman is overkill sometimes. Other times it gives you another angle when your combo gets disrupted. That being said I don't think abzan is that strong mainly because I need a painful manabase for black's noncreature spells. Too much affinity and burn running around in my meta. Back to GW.
Glad the numbers are there. In practice 17 lands have been performing and its mostly thanks to devoted druid. Adding a 3rd visionary in place of the 18th land seems good. Maybe cutting 1 dwynen's for the 4th visionary is something to consider as well.
You're right about abzan's expensive casting requirements. Having the 18th land seems like a must. Another reason why abzan seems slightly inferior to GW.
My main reason to ever run Shaman of the Pack was to get around Ensnaring Bridge. Devoted Druid can do that on it's own though.
My manabase for Abzan was actually less painful of a manabase than my GW version. I didn't run fetches or shocks in Abzan, but I'm running a Temple Garden and 2-3 fetches for GW. May cut back to just more forests with move Visionarys though. I am still on the mainboard Essence Warden train that I would highly recommend if fast decks, especially Burn, are prevalent in your meta.
I am glad to hear that 17 lands is working out for you. I haven't noticed a difference in my testing with 17, which is exactly what I'd like to see.
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Is there a consensus on which is better...Shaman (GB) Elves or the Vizier (GW) Elves? I keep seeing people talking about the Vizier deck, but not seeing it doing well. Sorry, just a little confused on which direction to take.
There isn't a consensus, and there probably never will be. I am on the Vizier train, and I have been doing very well with it. It seems much more consistent and equally as powerful, but I always focused on the Ezuri gameplan anyway with Shaman as Plan B.
I think the Abzan version has it's perks as well, but I think it has bad matchups that are made even worse when it can't build a strong board. I personally think GB is an inferior version with less options of a toolbox which can cause it to lose matchups that I can't imagine losing with white. Ad Nauseum, Baral Storm, Affinity, Vizier/Abzan Company, and many others are way better with the white sideboard cards.
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Sugestions?
The list is the normal one, Shaman main, White side stuff, Stain the Mind, etc.
That manabase is going to be quite painful.
My manabase was:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Razorverge Thicket
3 Forest
I didn't usually have a problem casting what I needed. If you're running more black or white non-creature spells you may have to adjust it, but I didn't find shocks and fetches necessary.
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You're right in that Shaman is overkill sometimes. Other times it gives you another angle when your combo gets disrupted. That being said I don't think abzan is that strong mainly because I need a painful manabase for black's noncreature spells. Too much affinity and burn running around in my meta. Back to GW.
Glad the numbers are there. In practice 17 lands have been performing and its mostly thanks to devoted druid. Adding a 3rd visionary in place of the 18th land seems good. Maybe cutting 1 dwynen's for the 4th visionary is something to consider as well.
You're right about abzan's expensive casting requirements. Having the 18th land seems like a must. Another reason why abzan seems slightly inferior to GW.
My main reason to ever run Shaman of the Pack was to get around Ensnaring Bridge. Devoted Druid can do that on it's own though.
My manabase for Abzan was actually less painful of a manabase than my GW version. I didn't run fetches or shocks in Abzan, but I'm running a Temple Garden and 2-3 fetches for GW. May cut back to just more forests with move Visionarys though. I am still on the mainboard Essence Warden train that I would highly recommend if fast decks, especially Burn, are prevalent in your meta.
I am glad to hear that 17 lands is working out for you. I haven't noticed a difference in my testing with 17, which is exactly what I'd like to see.
I've stolen some games against bridge that way and it's a great feeling. I hate bridge so much haha.
In order to run black noncreature spells I'd need at least 8 sources, preferably 9. I don't see how it's possible not to run fetches and shocks.
This would be the most optimal manabase for my playstyle of black noncreature spells and white toolbox creatures in the sb. Main board essence warden is a good suggestion and I'll keep it in mind if I rebuild abzan. Not willing to run a list without 4 canopy just yet though.
Do you think 17 lands can afford to run a colorless land? I'm leaning towards a no but that's just me not wanting to increase the mulligan rate.
Don't forget that Vizier combo is good against Ensnaring. Devoted Druid can swing with 0 power then get buffed.
That's true! I haven't moved to the GW combo deck (yet) since I really like the way GB feels. But if GW keeps moving up the ranks, I might have to consider an adjustment. Thanks!
Is there a consensus on which is better...Shaman (GB) Elves or the Vizier (GW) Elves? I keep seeing people talking about the Vizier deck, but not seeing it doing well. Sorry, just a little confused on which direction to take.
There isn't a consensus, and there probably never will be. I am on the Vizier train, and I have been doing very well with it. It seems much more consistent and equally as powerful, but I always focused on the Ezuri gameplan anyway with Shaman as Plan B.
I think the Abzan version has it's perks as well, but I think it has bad matchups that are made even worse when it can't build a strong board. I personally think GB is an inferior version with less options of a toolbox which can cause it to lose matchups that I can't imagine losing with white. Ad Nauseum, Baral Storm, Affinity, Vizier/Abzan Company, and many others are way better with the white sideboard cards.
I'll provide two cents on the other side of the coin. I run GB elves with lead the stampede mainboard, and have chords and white silver bullets in the side, so technically abzan (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=110297). I think this build offers the best of both worlds. It gives the reach of Shaman while also allowing silver bullet creatures games 2 and 3. I also run a painless mana base (except Horizon Canopy) and have never had issues getting B or W when needed. Cavern can name any creature type, and Chord/Coco get around the specific color of mana needed.
In a meta with lots of spot removal, GB elves with lead the stampede offers the most resiliency. It's worse against combo decks, but those matchups are usually poor with any version of elves. In the 50/50 matchups, I can see the devoted/vizier combo folding more often to DS/jund/junk/control relatively easily, while GB elves with shaman and lead make these matchups much easier through the card advantage coco and lead provide. I would consider running Devoted/Vizier if the amount of spot removal and hand disruption (thoughtseize/inquistion) goes down, but they are such staples that you're almost bound to run into them at every big event.
Is there a consensus on which is better...Shaman (GB) Elves or the Vizier (GW) Elves? I keep seeing people talking about the Vizier deck, but not seeing it doing well. Sorry, just a little confused on which direction to take.
There isn't a consensus, and there probably never will be. I am on the Vizier train, and I have been doing very well with it. It seems much more consistent and equally as powerful, but I always focused on the Ezuri gameplan anyway with Shaman as Plan B.
I think the Abzan version has it's perks as well, but I think it has bad matchups that are made even worse when it can't build a strong board. I personally think GB is an inferior version with less options of a toolbox which can cause it to lose matchups that I can't imagine losing with white. Ad Nauseum, Baral Storm, Affinity, Vizier/Abzan Company, and many others are way better with the white sideboard cards.
I'll provide two cents on the other side of the coin. I run GB elves with lead the stampede mainboard, and have chords and white silver bullets in the side, so technically abzan (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=110297). I think this build offers the best of both worlds. It gives the reach of Shaman while also allowing silver bullet creatures games 2 and 3. I also run a painless mana base (except Horizon Canopy) and have never had issues getting B or W when needed. Cavern can name any creature type, and Chord/Coco get around the specific color of mana needed.
In a meta with lots of spot removal, GB elves with lead the stampede offers the most resiliency. It's worse against combo decks, but those matchups are usually poor with any version of elves. In the 50/50 matchups, I can see the devoted/vizier combo folding more often to DS/jund/junk/control relatively easily, while GB elves with shaman and lead make these matchups much easier through the card advantage coco and lead provide. I would consider running Devoted/Vizier if the amount of spot removal and hand disruption (thoughtseize/inquistion) goes down, but they are such staples that you're almost bound to run into them at every big event.
I fear you may have misunderstood me. GB and Abzan are far different to me. I think the Abzan version is suited in about the same place as GW, and I won't tell you one or the other is better. I could see myself swapping between them at any given point. The version I would not recommend is pure GB without the white toolbox.
Mid-range matchups don't really change much with or without Shaman to me. If they can't keep your board down to where Shaman would be lethal, they were losing anyway. The Vizier combo is also often cut in this matchup. Shaman may make the matchup easier in some cases, but all versions will trim cards for a value and card advantage strategy post-board.
As far as Thoughtseize and Inquisition, I think Devoted Combo is BETTER suited. Devoted is now another must-kill threat or it can end the game. If they have to drop removal on every Heritage, Devoted, Archdruid, and Ezuri you drop, they'll eventually run out of removal. Vizier is never necessary, it's just sometimes the "oops, I win" factor.
Sugestions?
The list is the normal one, Shaman main, White side stuff, Stain the Mind, etc.
Canopy is too painful for a manabase that runs fetches and shocks. I recommend swapping canopy for Razorverge thicket. You need at least 3 forests for paths and gqs. You're running too many fetches and not enough targets; I would go 4 fetches, 5-6 targets. You might have to shave off a cavern or two.
This would be my ideal list for abzan. It has enough black sources for noncreature spells and definitely enough for silver bullets. It has enough white sources for silver bullets but not enough for noncreature spells which is how I would play. Ymmv.
Super disagree that you need that many fetchable lands with only 4 fetches. Maybe it's just because I play a lot of legacy but 4 fetchables with 4 fetches is an above average rate even in modern too I'm pretty sure. If you run out of fetchable lands ever chances are the extra land wouldn't matter anyways. I would run more fetches in 3color than most people to be honest because running only ~8 white sources (which most do) is sooooo shaky to me. But that's not popular opinion from most lists I've seen so maybe I'm wrong.
For an Abzan build (GB main/white cord sideboard) What do you guys think about replacing Nettle Sentinel with Elves of Deep Shadow?
Nettle Sentinel just doesn't seem that great if you're not trying to Glimpse off, while Deep Shadow is color fixing and guaranteed to produce mana.
I run 12 B sources + coco and have never had an issue casting a Shaman. I do run Boreal druid instead of Nettles because outside the combo with heritage druid it's not the greatest. I'd rather have more guaranteed mana.
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It's funny because I had the same thoughts about needing Thoughtseize at gp vegas. I'm still on the GW train due to testing 17 lands and needing 4 canopy - something you can relate to - but I might switch to GB if I feel that the lack of Thoughtseize and fatal push is overshadowing GW's strengths.
Everytime I've played this MU, it comes down to our advantage being in Numbers. Often times I would just stall the board until I reach critical mass, combo off, or draw a CoCo and hope they don't kill all my threats in one turn. Only stall in g1 because it becomes difficult postboard due to board wipes. Ultimately I've been fortunate enough to play against DS players who prefer anger which is much easier to deal with through selfless and burrenton.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
Double black would require 20 black sources to reliably cast on turn 2 or 19 to cast it by turn 3. That's more than out total land count so Lost Legacy sadly doesn't fit in our deck.
As for you second question, the only lands Arbor Elf is able to untap are basic Forests and a copy of Overgrown Tomb/Temple Garden. It doesn't work with Razorverge Thicket/Blooming Marsh/Gilt-Leaf Palace/Cavern of Souls/Horizon Canopy which makes it pretty useless as they usually represent our mana base.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
Modern: Infect, Elves, Bant Knightfall
I saw lots of lists with different options.
Thinking about:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgorown Tomb
3 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
Sugestions?
The list is the normal one, Shaman main, White side stuff, Stain the Mind, etc.
Canopy is too painful for a manabase that runs fetches and shocks. I recommend swapping canopy for Razorverge thicket. You need at least 3 forests for paths and gqs. You're running too many fetches and not enough targets; I would go 4 fetches, 5-6 targets. You might have to shave off a cavern or two.
Edit:
4 Windswept heath
1 overgrown tomb
1 temple garden
4 gilt-leaf palace
3 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
This would be my ideal list for abzan. It has enough black sources for noncreature spells and definitely enough for silver bullets. It has enough white sources for silver bullets but not enough for noncreature spells which is how I would play. Ymmv.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
Historically, the GW version has had more success in large scale tournaments. To further explain, the combo version placed in a GP recently. Before that it was straight GW beat down that placed in GPs. Not to disregard GB's power, maybe the deck just hasn't found the right pilot.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
Modern: Infect, Elves, Bant Knightfall
It all depends on your playstyle and what you want in the sb.
GW has two paths, one in beat down and one in combo. Running 4 canopy is a must imo. A little more consistent because all your creatures are green in the mb - can't cast shaman off of heritage. Mb has a lower cmc on average. For the sb, GW has the best silver bullet creatures and the best noncreature spells.
GB gives you a nice alternate wincon in the form of shaman of the pack. It's probably the best list to run Lead the Stampede in if chord of calling isn't your thing. You'll have access to some of the most popular cards in modern like Fatal Push and Thoughtseize which are well positioned in the meta. Lastly, Ewits are really good in this style of elves.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
I'm still testing it. I've been running 2x mainboard because I want to see it more often than not to get a feel for it. As has been mentioned though, it's Legendary, so seeing the 2nd one usually isn't great. I've liked what I've seen so far out of it. Landing one early along with the usual horde of Elves who can tap or be tapped for mana is glorious! Also, topdecking one late can be a nice surprise play to end your turn with lethally tapped Elves. My local meta has a lot of Ensnaring Bridge type stuff going on, so any extra chance to damage without attacking is useful for me. And if it doesn't seem like it'll be useful in a matchup after Game 1, it's easily sided out for silver bullets or specific deck hate.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
My manabase for Abzan was actually less painful of a manabase than my GW version. I didn't run fetches or shocks in Abzan, but I'm running a Temple Garden and 2-3 fetches for GW. May cut back to just more forests with move Visionarys though. I am still on the mainboard Essence Warden train that I would highly recommend if fast decks, especially Burn, are prevalent in your meta.
I am glad to hear that 17 lands is working out for you. I haven't noticed a difference in my testing with 17, which is exactly what I'd like to see.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
I think the Abzan version has it's perks as well, but I think it has bad matchups that are made even worse when it can't build a strong board. I personally think GB is an inferior version with less options of a toolbox which can cause it to lose matchups that I can't imagine losing with white. Ad Nauseum, Baral Storm, Affinity, Vizier/Abzan Company, and many others are way better with the white sideboard cards.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
My manabase was:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Razorverge Thicket
3 Forest
I didn't usually have a problem casting what I needed. If you're running more black or white non-creature spells you may have to adjust it, but I didn't find shocks and fetches necessary.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
I've stolen some games against bridge that way and it's a great feeling. I hate bridge so much haha.
In order to run black noncreature spells I'd need at least 8 sources, preferably 9. I don't see how it's possible not to run fetches and shocks.
4 Windswept heath
1 overgrown tomb
1 temple garden
4 gilt-leaf palace
3 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
This would be the most optimal manabase for my playstyle of black noncreature spells and white toolbox creatures in the sb. Main board essence warden is a good suggestion and I'll keep it in mind if I rebuild abzan. Not willing to run a list without 4 canopy just yet though.
Do you think 17 lands can afford to run a colorless land? I'm leaning towards a no but that's just me not wanting to increase the mulligan rate.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
That's true! I haven't moved to the GW combo deck (yet) since I really like the way GB feels. But if GW keeps moving up the ranks, I might have to consider an adjustment. Thanks!
I'll provide two cents on the other side of the coin. I run GB elves with lead the stampede mainboard, and have chords and white silver bullets in the side, so technically abzan (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=110297). I think this build offers the best of both worlds. It gives the reach of Shaman while also allowing silver bullet creatures games 2 and 3. I also run a painless mana base (except Horizon Canopy) and have never had issues getting B or W when needed. Cavern can name any creature type, and Chord/Coco get around the specific color of mana needed.
In a meta with lots of spot removal, GB elves with lead the stampede offers the most resiliency. It's worse against combo decks, but those matchups are usually poor with any version of elves. In the 50/50 matchups, I can see the devoted/vizier combo folding more often to DS/jund/junk/control relatively easily, while GB elves with shaman and lead make these matchups much easier through the card advantage coco and lead provide. I would consider running Devoted/Vizier if the amount of spot removal and hand disruption (thoughtseize/inquistion) goes down, but they are such staples that you're almost bound to run into them at every big event.
Mid-range matchups don't really change much with or without Shaman to me. If they can't keep your board down to where Shaman would be lethal, they were losing anyway. The Vizier combo is also often cut in this matchup. Shaman may make the matchup easier in some cases, but all versions will trim cards for a value and card advantage strategy post-board.
As far as Thoughtseize and Inquisition, I think Devoted Combo is BETTER suited. Devoted is now another must-kill threat or it can end the game. If they have to drop removal on every Heritage, Devoted, Archdruid, and Ezuri you drop, they'll eventually run out of removal. Vizier is never necessary, it's just sometimes the "oops, I win" factor.
-Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Super disagree that you need that many fetchable lands with only 4 fetches. Maybe it's just because I play a lot of legacy but 4 fetchables with 4 fetches is an above average rate even in modern too I'm pretty sure. If you run out of fetchable lands ever chances are the extra land wouldn't matter anyways. I would run more fetches in 3color than most people to be honest because running only ~8 white sources (which most do) is sooooo shaky to me. But that's not popular opinion from most lists I've seen so maybe I'm wrong.
Nettle Sentinel just doesn't seem that great if you're not trying to Glimpse off, while Deep Shadow is color fixing and guaranteed to produce mana.
I run 12 B sources + coco and have never had an issue casting a Shaman. I do run Boreal druid instead of Nettles because outside the combo with heritage druid it's not the greatest. I'd rather have more guaranteed mana.