My big issue with Copter is that with us already running 4 Vials and 4 Thraben Inspectors, it means that Stony Silence becomes quite good against us, and it's something that a lot of people are probably running in their side deck due to affinity, and also something that we want to bring in against affinity ourselves. Boarding out vials for Stony Silence is one thing, but do we really have enough to board out vials + copters without having to bring in bad cards?
Hey gang. The manabase primer is pretty dated and I'm going to be writing a new one. Are there specific issues that anyone wants to see addressed? Also, does anyone have access to hypergeometric distribution charts besides the old bopmtg ones?
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
Revisiting Sea Gate Wreckage, due to the addition of the pain deserts from HOU, as a budget option for Horizon Canopy?
Also: I played this deck in the early days of Modern, and looking at picking it up again. When did Aven Mindcensor go from a 3/4 of requirement to not even having a spot in the board on some lists?
Canonist's effect always confuse me and she was a card that i had and didn't get her potencial. Kinda used the Eidolon of Rhetoric instead.
It just depends on how fast you need to cast it, mana acceleration, etc. In WG I'd consider Eidolon, but in Monowhite the lower cost makes Canonist usually the better choice.
I really liked your list, mainly sb. Need to study very well how to sideboarded for some matches.
I think it's my weakness as a player. Never know what get in or out, but following the tread i got some ideas. Next month i hope to play GP with a mono white version and if i did i'll report.
Best of luck!
The advantage of the list above is that it has incredibly simple sideboard lines.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
@Fuzzydan, I'll check them out but my advice now as it has been is to bite the bullet and get the canopys.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
Also: I played this deck in the early days of Modern, and looking at picking it up again. When did Aven Mindcensor go from a 3/4 of requirement to not even having a spot in the board on some lists?
I think it was pretty soon after the first year of tournaments. Right around when everyone stopped playing 3 Linvallas main deck.
Now that it's on MTGO, how has the brewing/testing with Cruci-bear of Worlds been?
I'm really liking him with Courser/Azusa/CoCo/Chord in a non-D&T brew right now, but I'm worried I'm going to find it lackluster when going back to D&T and "1-land-drop-per-turn".
Any early feelings yet on if it's better/worse than Renegade Rallier was most of the time? (Floor similar, ceiling higher...?)
I'm really liking him with Courser/Azusa/CoCo/Chord in a non-D&T brew right now, but I'm worried I'm going to find it lackluster when going back to D&T and "1-land-drop-per-turn".
I've been using Rub-A-Dub E-Dub/Crucibeast in a Stevens-style CoCo deck as well. I don't think it really fits D&T either.
I've come to feel the same way about THC and Mindcensor. Amazing Turn 2 drops for hating on ramp and creature-driven decks in a deck packed with Birds and Hierarchs, but without a deck that gets to 3 on the 2nd turn consistently, they're of questionable value.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
I am fairly inexperienced with this archetype in modern and was wondering; what makes Thraben Inspector good in this list? I get that it provides card advantage and combos with flickerwisp, but a 1/2 body seems kind of useless; you're basically paying 3 mana for a chumpblock and cantrip. Dryad Millitant or Judge's Familiar seem much better in that slot from my (inexperienced) point of view.
The card advantage is the main reason. With all the flicker tricks, you can draw 2 or 3 cards per game and having draw engine is vital for this deck. Same reason, Canopy is used.
The effects of judge and dry ad are less powerful or better in the sideboard. However, D&T is so flexible and adaptable that you can substitute the inspector for the other 2 if your meta requires it.
Arbiter is frequently the best card in your deck, I'd never replace it mainboard, especially with the damage it does to the top two decks in the format.
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Semi-retired Lantern Player. I try to get out to play every once in awhile!
I am fairly inexperienced with this archetype in modern and was wondering; what makes Thraben Inspector good in this list? I get that it provides card advantage and combos with flickerwisp, but a 1/2 body seems kind of useless; you're basically paying 3 mana for a chumpblock and cantrip. Dryad Millitant or Judge's Familiar seem much better in that slot from my (inexperienced) point of view.
Thanks for any insight!
Militant and familiar are decent choices if you don't like the inspector. Inspector helps the deck pull out of topdeck wars when games go long which this deck can have a problem with, where as militant and familiar are good early game and worse late game.
I am fairly inexperienced with this archetype in modern and was wondering; what makes Thraben Inspector good in this list? I get that it provides card advantage and combos with flickerwisp, but a 1/2 body seems kind of useless; you're basically paying 3 mana for a chumpblock and cantrip. Dryad Millitant or Judge's Familiar seem much better in that slot from my (inexperienced) point of view.
Thanks for any insight!
I think Thraben Inspector is far and away the best 1 drop for modern D&T. You really want to see more cards if at all possible (especially with Aether Vial in play), because your individual cards are usually of lower power level than your opponent's. Thraben Inspector makes proactive Flickerwisp and Restoration Angel plays much better, especially if you suspect your opponent has removal. It also fills out your curve with a combination of 1, 2 and 3 mana plays. It also has a way of just hanging around on the board waiting to be flickered for value. I don't think mono-white is very competitive without 4 Thraben Inspector and some number of Horizon Canopy.
I tested dark confidant in E&T and it didnt worked (at least for me).
You want to play it on 2nd turn or vial him in on your 3rd turn, but those turns are important for Thalia and Arbiter, so... you have to decide wether to follow the Taxes plan, or to have confidant on board (and he will probably eat a removal).
On mid-late game, he can draw one or a few cards but he wont probably win the game, and u will take high damage from TKS and 3cc cards. Opponent can just sit and defend until confidant kills you, or just wait for you to spent your own removal to kill your own confidant.
Confidant is a card for midrange decks, where board presence and strong draws are all that matters, they can be at 1 life and win. For E&T, I feel like confidant will only make you win when you are already winning the game.
Of the Eldrazi variant or not? The untapped land situation is much worse in eldrazi, so I wouldn't run there, but it could be a decent fit for BW without eldrazi.
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Semi-retired Lantern Player. I try to get out to play every once in awhile!
So I lost two matches to BG elf company with a mono w build. They sat back and defended and simply outranged meby generating craptons of mana and company/chording me to death with Shamans. Didn't see a single path, sunlance, or Crusader in any of those games though.
What is the plan for that? Sunscour for when a deck like that overcommits?
So I lost two matches to BG elf company with a mono w build. They sat back and defended and simply outranged meby generating craptons of mana and company/chording me to death with Shamans. Didn't see a single path, sunlance, or Crusader in any of those games though.
What is the plan for that? Sunscour for when a deck like that overcommits?
Elves is a traditionally poor MU. Unless you skew your deck to deal with them, it's going to stay that way. phyrexian revoker and linvala, keeper of silence are good cards that you can bring in vs them. grafdigger's cage stops a decent chunk of their deck. Spot removal is helpful like you mentioned. If you splash (or micro splash), engineered explosives (ratchet bomb could be okay if you're in only mono W) is one of our best options. Beyond that, there's color specific stuff like orzhov pontiff or cards that are difficult to play here just for decks like them such as wrath of god. A more unconvetional approach might include something like walking ballista.
But unless you want to do all that stuff just for them, you might just want to dodge them.
Also: I played this deck in the early days of Modern, and looking at picking it up again. When did Aven Mindcensor go from a 3/4 of requirement to not even having a spot in the board on some lists?
The advantage of the list above is that it has incredibly simple sideboard lines.
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Godless Shrine
6 Plains
3 Mutavault
2 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Creatures (28):
3 Blade Splicer
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Restoration Angel
2 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Aether Vial
Instants (4):
4 Path to Exile
Sorceries (2):
2 Lingering Souls
3 Auriok Champion
2 Dusk // Dawn
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
I think it was pretty soon after the first year of tournaments. Right around when everyone stopped playing 3 Linvallas main deck.
I'm really liking him with Courser/Azusa/CoCo/Chord in a non-D&T brew right now, but I'm worried I'm going to find it lackluster when going back to D&T and "1-land-drop-per-turn".
Any early feelings yet on if it's better/worse than Renegade Rallier was most of the time? (Floor similar, ceiling higher...?)
I've come to feel the same way about THC and Mindcensor. Amazing Turn 2 drops for hating on ramp and creature-driven decks in a deck packed with Birds and Hierarchs, but without a deck that gets to 3 on the 2nd turn consistently, they're of questionable value.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Thanks for any insight!
The effects of judge and dry ad are less powerful or better in the sideboard. However, D&T is so flexible and adaptable that you can substitute the inspector for the other 2 if your meta requires it.
Militant and familiar are decent choices if you don't like the inspector. Inspector helps the deck pull out of topdeck wars when games go long which this deck can have a problem with, where as militant and familiar are good early game and worse late game.
I think Thraben Inspector is far and away the best 1 drop for modern D&T. You really want to see more cards if at all possible (especially with Aether Vial in play), because your individual cards are usually of lower power level than your opponent's. Thraben Inspector makes proactive Flickerwisp and Restoration Angel plays much better, especially if you suspect your opponent has removal. It also fills out your curve with a combination of 1, 2 and 3 mana plays. It also has a way of just hanging around on the board waiting to be flickered for value. I don't think mono-white is very competitive without 4 Thraben Inspector and some number of Horizon Canopy.
You want to play it on 2nd turn or vial him in on your 3rd turn, but those turns are important for Thalia and Arbiter, so... you have to decide wether to follow the Taxes plan, or to have confidant on board (and he will probably eat a removal).
On mid-late game, he can draw one or a few cards but he wont probably win the game, and u will take high damage from TKS and 3cc cards. Opponent can just sit and defend until confidant kills you, or just wait for you to spent your own removal to kill your own confidant.
Confidant is a card for midrange decks, where board presence and strong draws are all that matters, they can be at 1 life and win. For E&T, I feel like confidant will only make you win when you are already winning the game.
Of the Eldrazi variant or not? The untapped land situation is much worse in eldrazi, so I wouldn't run there, but it could be a decent fit for BW without eldrazi.
I've also found that keeping a Vial up to Flickerwisp their Phyrexian Unlife when they Ad Nauseum to 0 life can be effective.
What is the plan for that? Sunscour for when a deck like that overcommits?
Elves is a traditionally poor MU. Unless you skew your deck to deal with them, it's going to stay that way. phyrexian revoker and linvala, keeper of silence are good cards that you can bring in vs them. grafdigger's cage stops a decent chunk of their deck. Spot removal is helpful like you mentioned. If you splash (or micro splash), engineered explosives (ratchet bomb could be okay if you're in only mono W) is one of our best options. Beyond that, there's color specific stuff like orzhov pontiff or cards that are difficult to play here just for decks like them such as wrath of god. A more unconvetional approach might include something like walking ballista.
But unless you want to do all that stuff just for them, you might just want to dodge them.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance