Joe Soh won GP Kobe with BW Eldrazi and Semi-Taxes. Is this a DnT list? Is this a BW Eldrazi list? I think it is a weird mixture of both which seemed to work for him oO
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Joe Soh won GP Kobe with BW Eldrazi and Semi-Taxes. Is this a DnT list? Is this a BW Eldrazi list? I think it is a weird mixture of both which seemed to work for him oO
So I've been on Eldrazi and Taxes (pretty much the stock list) for about a year now. I love it but wanted to try something a little different and gave DeathAndCatmix's BW lingering souls list a shot and it's been getting me there for the most part! My question is what do we like more in the meta?
Either list brings in great side or cards for death shadow. Arbiters and Thalia's are fantastic against DS and Storm. I feel confident against the popular UW control lists. It's the creature heavy/toolbox lists that I struggle with like abzan counters and coco decks.
What is everyone's take on the matchup? And what are your personal opinions on where we stand in the meta as Death and Taxes on any list?
Against Abzan Counters, Linvala is a beast. No infinite mana combo (he/she can´t activate the second ability of the devoted or Recruiter's one), no infinite life combo (he/she can't activate the viscera seer), no infinite damage with the ballista or Rhonas. Other options could be more removal like dismember or fatal push. The big Thalia gives you an extra turn to find an answer.
Against CoCo, Grafdigger's Cage is the perfect tool.
Against Abzan Counters, Linvala is a beast. No infinite mana combo (he/she can´t activate the second ability of the devoted or Recruiter's one), no infinite life combo (he/she can't activate the viscera seer), no infinite damage with the ballista or Rhonas. Other options could be more removal like dismember or fatal push. The big Thalia gives you an extra turn to find an answer.
Against CoCo, Grafdigger's Cage is the perfect tool.
LOVE the Linvala tip. Shamefully it's an option I never even thought of!
I too have tested Linvala again recently and she does indeed do work in that match up! I am actually pretty sad that this one particular deck is skewing a lot of list to having to directly have hate for it. It seems like a consistent theme of poor design in the green card pool. I do not believe that this deck will get a ban (these tools have essentially always existed) but I do hope to see better built answer for cards like these. The fact that our best resource against this doesn't land until turn 4 at best is a bit alarming. It also is Legendary which means jamming multiple copies is not a clean answer.
I have had reasonable results with the use of Sunlance but it is a very generic tool. Phyrexian Revoker might also be another resource to help fight that match up and can be reasonable against other decks as well. I wrote about it here: Phrexian Revoker Primer.
I also want to do a video in the next day or two talking about "Death And Taxes" versus the "Tiered Decks" in the format! If so, when would y'all want to tune in for such content (if at all). I am thinking of doing a chat about it on Twitch tonight around 9PM MST!
I'll definitely be giving Linvala and Phyrexian Revoker some love here in the next couple weeks.
I, for one, would love to tune into a chat tonight if you chose to do so.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
In principle, being a creature seems like a liability, but in practice, it's actually an advantage.
This is probably one of the few cases where you probably want needle over revoker since 99% of their deck is made up of creatures. Revoker sits in play doing the same thing as needle until a fiend hunter scoops it away :c
In principle, being a creature seems like a liability, but in practice, it's actually an advantage.
This is probably one of the few cases where you probably want needle over revoker since 99% of their deck is made up of creatures. Revoker sits in play doing the same thing as needle until a fiend hunter scoops it away :c
The difference between Thalia, Confidant and Revoker, it's that you can't risk the Revoker because it could be the only tool that prevents your lost. The rival is going to block it. You don't want to attack with the revoker. The Revoker/Needle is a defensive tool that gives you time and prevents from death. You shouldn't risk your shield.
About the mana abilities: Yes, it's an advantage and could be a great one but against the decks you put as an example are better options.
- Eidolon of Rhetoric for Ad Nauseam: Unless he draw the Pact of Masacre, he can't combo you. Even post-SB, he only have two or three answers to the eidolon.
- Elves: Yes, you can cut the Archidruid ability but the real problem is Ezuri and the Needle can do the same one turn before.
- Counters Company: Needle can block the untapped ability of the Devoted and it's the same effect. It's even better the needle because the number of answers in the SB for an artifact are Qasali and Abrupt and for creatures it also has 3 additional PtE.
Even with the things I've just said, I believe the Revoker is also an excellent answer.
In principle, being a creature seems like a liability, but in practice, it's actually an advantage.
This is probably one of the few cases where you probably want needle over revoker since 99% of their deck is made up of creatures. Revoker sits in play doing the same thing as needle until a fiend hunter scoops it away :c
I know what you're saying (and you're right), but Revoker is the better soft read in an open metagame. If you know that your metagame is just your D&T deck and a bunch of Abzan Counters decks, then you're right; you would make a hard read and just run Pithing Needle instead. Revoker is a more flexible option than Needle, but you're right that against Abzan Counters specifically, Needle is probably better.
The difference between Thalia, Confidant and Revoker, it's that you can't risk the Revoker because it could be the only tool that prevents your lost. The rival is going to block it. You don't want to attack with the revoker. The Revoker/Needle is a defensive tool that gives you time and prevents from death. You shouldn't risk your shield.
A long time ago, this was my original objection to Catmix about his choice of Revoker over Needle. Specifically, that in the matchups where you want it, Needle has much more staying power than Revoker. Long story short, I was wrong and he was right.
Let me start by saying that your analysis isn't wrong. Needle is, in fact, harder to remove than Revoker. The problem is that in Catmix's version of the deck, it doesn't matter. Catmix maindecks Revoker. It would be a mistake to maindeck Pithing Needle, because although it's relevant in a lot of matchups, it's dead in certain other ones. Revoker is never dead. Sometimes it's Pithing Needle; sometimes it's a fragile Pithing Needle; sometimes it's a 2/1 bear; sometimes it's a helicopter pilot. I've watched Catmix play a lot of games where Revoker is holding LotV at bay while it still swings in for damage. I've watched Revoker shut off multiple Noble Hierarchs making the Ghost Quarter/Arbiter combo relevant in matchups that it would ordinarily be useless.
Revoker is fragile, but it's the Swiss Army knife of disruption. It's usually not the best tool for any given application, but it usually is the only tool that you'll want to take with you wherever you go.
If you want a sideboard card that comes in post-board (obviously) and sits on the battlefield for long periods of time, then Pithing Needle is a better option than Revoker. But that's not how Catmix is using it. He's using Revoker like we've always used Thalia - as a maindeck piece of disruption with legs. And he was right about it being extremely useful in that way. If you want to run Pithing Needle out of the sideboard because it's good at what it does and it's difficult to remove, that's fine. You could also run Thorn of Amethyst in your sideboard as a hedge against Storm, Ad Nauseam, and Bogles, all of which will have a much harder time removing Thorn than Thalia. But as a maindeck option, Revoker is the correct choice. And frankly, even out of the sideboard, Revoker gives you much more flexibility than Pithing Needle does, even if it eats removal that Pithing Needle doesn't.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I wasn't talking about the Catmix deck. My analysis was more generic.
But yes you're right. Revoker in his deck is the right election. If you want to put this kind of effects in you main deck, it's your guy. Myself, I will continue with the Needle because, as you said, I want the Needle to stay in the battlefield for very long.
I also want to thank you for the interaction between Revoker/Quarter/Arbiter against Noble Hierach/Birds/etc type of acceleration. So many things to learn an discover about D&T. I love all these tricks.
Phyrexian Revoker is marginally better than Pithing Needle. The components that push it over Needle tend to matter more in the match ups that they are presented in though. I'll staple some examples here for you!
-Cutting off mana: Needle has no way to engage against oppressive mana abilities
-Fighting Affinity: Revoker can actually block etched champion.
-attacks when not relevant: Revoker can show up when the initial gate doesn't matter and attack.
Forces the situation: sometimees it can lure removal or bad lines of play out. Having a target on its back makes opponents commit more action to it. This makes landing Linvala and etc even better against limited removal.
I think Needle is a great supplement as well but both cards have issues. I'd like to see 3/2 split if possible in my future builds!
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkob17
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
This is the right thread for this one:
BW Eldrazi Processors
Green @ it's best
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
Either list brings in great side or cards for death shadow. Arbiters and Thalia's are fantastic against DS and Storm. I feel confident against the popular UW control lists. It's the creature heavy/toolbox lists that I struggle with like abzan counters and coco decks.
What is everyone's take on the matchup? And what are your personal opinions on where we stand in the meta as Death and Taxes on any list?
Against CoCo, Grafdigger's Cage is the perfect tool.
LOVE the Linvala tip. Shamefully it's an option I never even thought of!
I have had reasonable results with the use of Sunlance but it is a very generic tool. Phyrexian Revoker might also be another resource to help fight that match up and can be reasonable against other decks as well. I wrote about it here: Phrexian Revoker Primer.
I also want to do a video in the next day or two talking about "Death And Taxes" versus the "Tiered Decks" in the format! If so, when would y'all want to tune in for such content (if at all). I am thinking of doing a chat about it on Twitch tonight around 9PM MST!
Lemme Know,
-Catmix
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
I, for one, would love to tune into a chat tonight if you chose to do so.
I will watch that video about D&T vs Tiers but I cannot tune into the chat due to timetable issues.
In principle, being a creature seems like a liability, but in practice, it's actually an advantage.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
The difference between Thalia, Confidant and Revoker, it's that you can't risk the Revoker because it could be the only tool that prevents your lost. The rival is going to block it. You don't want to attack with the revoker. The Revoker/Needle is a defensive tool that gives you time and prevents from death. You shouldn't risk your shield.
About the mana abilities: Yes, it's an advantage and could be a great one but against the decks you put as an example are better options.
- Eidolon of Rhetoric for Ad Nauseam: Unless he draw the Pact of Masacre, he can't combo you. Even post-SB, he only have two or three answers to the eidolon.
- Elves: Yes, you can cut the Archidruid ability but the real problem is Ezuri and the Needle can do the same one turn before.
- Counters Company: Needle can block the untapped ability of the Devoted and it's the same effect. It's even better the needle because the number of answers in the SB for an artifact are Qasali and Abrupt and for creatures it also has 3 additional PtE.
Even with the things I've just said, I believe the Revoker is also an excellent answer.
A long time ago, this was my original objection to Catmix about his choice of Revoker over Needle. Specifically, that in the matchups where you want it, Needle has much more staying power than Revoker. Long story short, I was wrong and he was right.
Let me start by saying that your analysis isn't wrong. Needle is, in fact, harder to remove than Revoker. The problem is that in Catmix's version of the deck, it doesn't matter. Catmix maindecks Revoker. It would be a mistake to maindeck Pithing Needle, because although it's relevant in a lot of matchups, it's dead in certain other ones. Revoker is never dead. Sometimes it's Pithing Needle; sometimes it's a fragile Pithing Needle; sometimes it's a 2/1 bear; sometimes it's a helicopter pilot. I've watched Catmix play a lot of games where Revoker is holding LotV at bay while it still swings in for damage. I've watched Revoker shut off multiple Noble Hierarchs making the Ghost Quarter/Arbiter combo relevant in matchups that it would ordinarily be useless.
Revoker is fragile, but it's the Swiss Army knife of disruption. It's usually not the best tool for any given application, but it usually is the only tool that you'll want to take with you wherever you go.
If you want a sideboard card that comes in post-board (obviously) and sits on the battlefield for long periods of time, then Pithing Needle is a better option than Revoker. But that's not how Catmix is using it. He's using Revoker like we've always used Thalia - as a maindeck piece of disruption with legs. And he was right about it being extremely useful in that way. If you want to run Pithing Needle out of the sideboard because it's good at what it does and it's difficult to remove, that's fine. You could also run Thorn of Amethyst in your sideboard as a hedge against Storm, Ad Nauseam, and Bogles, all of which will have a much harder time removing Thorn than Thalia. But as a maindeck option, Revoker is the correct choice. And frankly, even out of the sideboard, Revoker gives you much more flexibility than Pithing Needle does, even if it eats removal that Pithing Needle doesn't.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
But yes you're right. Revoker in his deck is the right election. If you want to put this kind of effects in you main deck, it's your guy. Myself, I will continue with the Needle because, as you said, I want the Needle to stay in the battlefield for very long.
I also want to thank you for the interaction between Revoker/Quarter/Arbiter against Noble Hierach/Birds/etc type of acceleration. So many things to learn an discover about D&T. I love all these tricks.
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
-Cutting off mana: Needle has no way to engage against oppressive mana abilities
-Fighting Affinity: Revoker can actually block etched champion.
-attacks when not relevant: Revoker can show up when the initial gate doesn't matter and attack.
Forces the situation: sometimees it can lure removal or bad lines of play out. Having a target on its back makes opponents commit more action to it. This makes landing Linvala and etc even better against limited removal.
I think Needle is a great supplement as well but both cards have issues. I'd like to see 3/2 split if possible in my future builds!
-Catmix
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
That said, take it with a grain of salt: I am still very green at Modern.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W