@spiderspace: congrats on your finish. It's really good that some of us are putting good results with the deck...
about the gw coco list i can understand how powerful it is to make powerful turn 2 plays like thaliaHC and leonin + GQ, but i've always been afraid that 4 vials + 4 hierarch would make the deck not good in topdeck mode vs grindy matchups, it is somehow threat lighter (both of them are kind of blanks lategame). i can also see that courser and coco try to make up with that.
i am a little afraid that GWx decks,brews like that mardu you faced, and grixis can all be unfavored (and strictly worse than the ones you have with other lists like BW eldrazi). What do you think about it?
do you side out vials/cocos in those matchups (since you're bringing even less creatures postboard)?
Do you think more selfless spirits could have been better (maybe that lonely displacer is not the best here)?
How well did gavony and eternal Witness perform in general (since i didn't see any of it in the report)?
Do you always side out witness when you bring in RIP?
And lastly have you ever had any problems casting GG spells?
Sorry for bothering with all those questions
Thank you!
Originally I was going to space these question by question, but I feel that a lot of what you asked about flows into each other. So sorry for the wall of text.
While having 8 one drops certainly makes our topdeck worse, having that extra level of consistency is more than worth it. Additionally, hierarch can still swing on an empty board and will pump other guys swinging. However, the concern is still a valid one. (This somewhat answers your next question as well:) I tend to take out one vial or one hierarch if depending on if I'm on the play or the draw (if I'm on the play, it's vial. If on the draw, it's hierarch). Additionally, if my 2 burrenton-forge tenders come in, I'll side out 1 vial and 1 hierarch so that I'm not flooded with 1 drops. courser of kruphix, horizon canopy, and collected company all do work to help make sure we don't topdeck poorly. In fact, if you look some pages back you'll see that I was saying that GBx felt the best with this version over any other version of D&T I've played. I somewhat assume you meant GBx when you said GWx. However, if you DO mean GWx, I can't think of a common theme between those kinds of decks, but the two that come to mind are bant eldrazi and Junk both of which are quite winnable. Junk could be hard G1 because of lingering souls, but is a better MU than jund in my opinion because rest in peace hits them even harder. The Drazi MU is benefited hugely by spellskite, thalia, heretic cathar, and fliers. For all of the above decks, I believe that this deck has a BETTER MU than BW E&T would because I'm fast enough to fight on my terms and I have an arguably better lategame with better topdecks due to canopy and courser, and being able to provide huge value off of coco. For Grixis and Mardu style "control" decks (the grixis I faced was delver so I'm hesitant to call it control. The mardu was very midrangy and reminds me of Jund and so also might not be considered a true control deck.), I think my GW and E&T probably have similar MUs. While E&T has more hand disruption, my taxers come down faster and hit harder with great midgame resiliency. TKS is great, but they do get cards back when they kill it. I'd just much rather topdeck my scavenging ooze in one of those games than a tidehollow sculler or really any other 2 cmc card we run in the mid to late game. That and both decks just eat bolt all day long. Both decks run 4 creatures that don't get killed by bolt so I feel like it's fairly similar. When against a true grixis control deck, I feel like wasteland strangler being able to eat ancestral vision is pretty sweet, but that once you're behind, that's kind of it. We get to vial stuff EOT and try our flicker shenangins, but coco takes that to the next level.
Yes, I absolutely do take out collected company at times. The number I have in my head as the amount of creatures that it needs to be able to hit is 22. If you're below that, than there's a good chance you shouldn't be running it. The dredge MU comes to mind where I'm siding in somewhere around 7 non creature spells. Additionally, we mostly don't want too many 4 drops so if you are bring in gideon, ally of zendikar, it may be worthwhile to cut a resto or coco (however it's good to load up on the top end when you're against grindy decks which is admittedly where Gideon comes in).
My main argument against my singleton displacer is that it makes my manabase slightly more painful in the form of brushland and while it can matter, I feel that my burn MU is strong enough that displacer's benefit of being able to take over the game is absolutely worth a slightly more painful manabase when I have cards to gain life and improve my mana in the form of hierarch and courser (also vial and scooze). Displacer is what gives WB E&T its midgame to lategame power. We've all seen the power of landing one with a wisp. Imagine doing that with a eternal witness. Displacer and witness are singletons that both serve a unique and very powerful function. I'm very content with them as one ofs though since they both require a kind of support (witness needs cards in the yard and displacer is mana hungry), yet they both are very powerful if they have that support.
I think that selfless spirit is a great card, but I didn't find myself wanting its effect that much more. That and I can't imagine cutting something for another. Is it really better than a displacer, scooze, or skite? I doubt it. Furthermore, one of the main types of board wipes we run into are R ones (anger of the gods) where I can bring in burrenton forge-tender. While I admittedly do have a worse WU control MU because of supreme verdict, I can still win those games as coco just restocks our board if my taxers failed in slowing them down sufficiently. That and it doesn't represent a large enough part of the meta to make me want to tune to it. I just don't get wrath of goded that much.
Ewit and gavony township are both excellent cards that in a sense, serve similar purposes in that they give me a better mid to late game. Gavony is able to turn any of our creatures into a bigger badder threat. It's also able to turn an attack into an alpha strike making me often happy to draw it. Witness is just very versatile. Obviously getting back coco is probably the dirtiest thing it can do, but it can get you back LD, a destroyed utility, an important creature the opponent managed to kill, or even an extra path for that nasty infector or big fatty you're facing down.
I do not always side witness out when I side rip in. I will side witness out say against dredge, but there's a real thought for keeping it against GBx where your opponent is likely to inquisition of kozilek it. It really depends.
GG cards can theoretically be hard to cast sometimes, but I really haven't had a courser stuck in my hand that often. Witness is card that is often sandbagged anyway so is even less relevant in that way. I have 12 G sources with 8 one drops that mana fix. 5 of my colorless sources can be used to get G if I have to (i.e ghost quarter myself to get that basic. I also think it's probably not statistically that relevant, but gemstone caverns does sometimes happen and so I thought was worth mentioning).
Something to note on my list; it might be a sort of Corey Burkhart kind of situation where my list is very much just that; it could be hard to pilot and there are lots of lines of play that might not be intuitive if you just netdecked my list and sleeved up for your next tourney. And I say that knowing the forum is full of D&T players. The next most capable person with it would probably be benno since he has spent a good amount of time with GW coco, but our lists are pretty different (his list looks like an older variant of it I have). I'm sure catmix and jeina could make it work, but not before tweaking it to fit their respective playstyles a bit.
I don't say that to discourage any of you from trying it or to be elitist about it, but rather to be aware that you might not 5-0 first with it the first time you try it. You need some practice time with it.
Please don't apologize for the questions! I'm happy to answer them!
Why do you cut vial on the play and heirarch on the draw? Wouldn't having a higher chance to hit hierarch on the draw be better for making up the mana differential between being on the play and on the draw by putting you ahead of your opponent potential production wise? Especially with Gemstone Cavern? Or os Cavern the reason you feeling comfortable cutting a hierarch?
Why do you cut vial on the play and heirarch on the draw? Wouldn't having a higher chance to hit hierarch on the draw be better for making up the mana differential between being on the play and on the draw by putting you ahead of your opponent potential production wise? Especially with Gemstone Cavern? Or os Cavern the reason you feeling comfortable cutting a hierarch?
Cavern shouldn't make too much of a difference either way as it as a 1 of isn't that statistically relevant.
The thought process there is that my hierarch into X turn 3 are often very aggressive (i.e. T2 arbiter + gq or big thalia) and that vial puts me more on a defensive reactionary plan. By going second, I feel that at least to begin with, my opponent is more in the drivers seat and I must react. Hierarch is still of course good and I want T1 consistency, but the particular lines I mentioned are less alluring when they are already up on mana.
Gemstone of course is there to try and reverse this a bit, but as I said, it's only a 1 of.
Does that not make sense to you? Would you cut it in the reverse way?
Why do you cut vial on the play and heirarch on the draw? Wouldn't having a higher chance to hit hierarch on the draw be better for making up the mana differential between being on the play and on the draw by putting you ahead of your opponent potential production wise? Especially with Gemstone Cavern? Or os Cavern the reason you feeling comfortable cutting a hierarch?
Cavern shouldn't make too much of a difference either way as it as a 1 of isn't that statistically relevant.
The thought process there is that my hierarch into X turn 3 are often very aggressive (i.e. T2 arbiter + gq or big thalia) and that vial puts me more on a defensive reactionary plan. By going second, I feel that at least to begin with, my opponent is more in the drivers seat and I must react. Hierarch is still of course good and I want T1 consistency, but the particular lines I mentioned are less alluring when they are already up on mana.
Gemstone of course is there to try and reverse this a bit, but as I said, it's only a 1 of.
Does that not make sense to you? Would you cut it in the reverse way?
It'd be match up dependent for me. W/G is a variant I have played a little so your experience would make you more qualified to speak on the matter than me, but my philosophy would be that the tempo boost of a dork on the draw would allow me to develop faster than my opponent by putting me a turn up on mana production almost reversing the draw/play order while still drawing an extra card. On the play Vial matches their mana production on their previous turn allowing me to develop my board on pace with theirs while being proactive or reactive with my mana as I see fit. Granted certain decks make either vial or noble better so the cut is easier. For example I would cut most, if not all my vials against midrange, depending on if I had worthwhile stuff to justify the cut, because it is a deader draw than Noble. If I suspected pingers, wipes or -1/-1 effects obviously the nobles would go, but I imagine we're in agreement there. I also feel that Vial is sometimes way to slow on the draw and will occasionally cut one to reduce my chances of a dead draw later, especially when boarding in cards like RIP which don't provide immediate advantage or are dead draws in multiples.
It'd be match up dependent for me. W/G is a variant I have played a little so your experience would make you more qualified to speak on the matter than me, but my philosophy would be that the tempo boost of a dork on the draw would allow me to develop faster than my opponent by putting me a turn up on mana production almost reversing the draw/play order while still drawing an extra card. On the play Vial matches their mana production on their previous turn allowing me to develop my board on pace with theirs while being proactive or reactive with my mana as I see fit. Granted certain decks make either vial or noble better so the cut is easier. For example I would cut most, if not all my vials against midrange, depending on if I had worthwhile stuff to justify the cut, because it is a deader draw than Noble. If I suspected pingers, wipes or -1/-1 effects obviously the nobles would go, but I imagine we're in agreement there. I also feel that Vial is sometimes way to slow on the draw and will occasionally cut one to reduce my chances of a dead draw later, especially when boarding in cards like RIP which don't provide immediate advantage or are dead draws in multiples.
It certainly is match dependent. Your absolutely right; hierarch can't help your mana if it's just going to eat a bolt. That's interesting though, because I tend to not cut all my vials against midrange as I feel that being able to push dudes that can't be countered onto the board and at flash enables me to get in hits I shouldn't otherwise be able to get in. Furthermore, it allows tricks like ours wisps saving guys from removal in a MU that's likely to be highly value centric.
To be perfectly honest, cutting only 1 of 1 or the other probably doesn't change the deck that much to matter significantly. I could try it in reverse, but I'm not sure I'll be able to really notice the difference until I've played a lot of games that way.
You make a good point about catching up on mana, but I often feel that the T2 plays hierarch opens up are just much less good when me opponent already has 2 mana and that's one of the main reasons I think this way.
Damn, that was so close. It was a really good result nevertheless!
I didn't want my last post's concerns to become reality =(
I can be wrong (again) but i still feel those are some of the worst matchup for your list. If i was not wrong, what would be the cards that could have a great impact against this kind of decks? i think we should be looking for resilient creatures. (i would say mirran crusader like i usually do, but i'm quite sure it's just my fetish. It is good also in all sorts of green matchups, and it blocks so well vs dredge,it is a really good stabilizer. Cast turn 2 it is also a great beater with hierarchs).
Have you ever considered having one or 2 copies of Sigarda, host of herons in the sideboard? Does it cover the same role that gideon does?
Kitchen finks is not bad, but it wouldn't do so good with a rip on the field.
The 3rd RIP is a great improvement. Do we want surgical for matchups that are harder than this? given that Vs BGx and Grixis RIP is better, what other matches would you rather have surgicals than RIP? all i can think about is tron and valakut, but our deck should be usually better even without them. Against reanimator/melira combo i feel like they do the same thing. While vs dredge i still think RIP is better. (Am i missing something?). so yes i would go up 3 rip, cutting one surgical.
Can you try some sided games with 0 vials in and see how it feels? (usually for me 4 vials for 3 RIP + 1 gideon does it).
It certainly was close! Yeah, thanks. I got quite a few packs out of the whole thing, but I really was gunning for that top 8.
I don't view grixis as a good MU, but I also think it IS winnable. I'd like to point out that both of my games against them went to the third game and that even so, they were close.
I've thought about Sigarda, host of herons before and I can see her being pretty decent. I think they play a similar SB role though and I'm not convinced that she'd be better than gideon. He can take the game over if left unchecked, although may be easier to get rid of than sigarda unless my opponent has a wrath. He does come done a turn earlier if I don't have thalia though and that's worth mentioning.
I don't think it's accurate to say that we have a great tron MU. I think U tron is pretty easy and the recent G/W tron is doable with GR tron being the hardest. Valakut is pretty easy if they're on scapeshift. I think it's harder if they're on titan which most variants are these days (although probably still in our favor). I would hate not being able to bring much of anything in against these decks, but perhaps you're right that I have to pick my poison.
Rip shuts down dredge better than surgical, but rip costs mana meaning it may come down after they've already put X number of dudes to beat face on the board and meaning it costs tempo. And they're prepared for Rip with their 4 nature's claims whereas they can't do anything about surgical.
Additionally there are decks where surgicaling out a bolt form a snap is better than just slamming rip on the table T2.
And yes, I can definitely try that. That is not how I normally would side against GBx (that is the MU you're referring to there right?)
Also, I'll test the 3 rip 1 surgical against the 2/2 split as well as sigarda in the board. I may try sigarda with gideon as opposed to replacing him.
I've decided to test my new SB in yet another PTQ preliminary with the following changes: +1 Rip, +1 sigarda, and -2 stony silence.
The thought process there is that I already have worship, 2 ghostly, and a rec sage in the board for affinity and that they are a low percentage of the meta right now (mostly because of dredge I think). If they represented a larger portion of the field, I wouldn't cut stony. The card is also good against ad nasueuam where we already have a good MU and against lantern where even when Iran them, I'd never resolved one and even if I had, they also run nature's claim and abrupt decay. It's a good versatile card, but those 3 decks don't represent a large enough portion of the meta to make the cut for me right now. I know I now have 5 anti GY effects which is a bit much, but surgical is very versatile and I'm hesitant to cut it. I'll use this PPTQ to test my changes.
Round 1 vs Grixis control:
Game one: I went first and lead with a hierarch which he bolted. The following turn I played a second hierarch which he also bolted. Then I played scooze which ate a terminate. Finally, I landed a selfless spirit and started swinging. I had resto mana up and was patient. He eventually dealt with both cards, but my second resto made it in and ended him.
Game two: I kept an opener with lots of lands and a resto and a rip. I drew pretty live and rip did a lot of work for me. He played a decently grindy game, but it felt pretty easy.
2-0.
Takeway: rip seems to be doing its job. I saw 2 of them in the game and that could have been a bit much if it was a tighter match, but it wasn't so I guess it's A-okay.
Round 2 vs Infect:
Game 1: I'm on the draw and my opponent opened with hierarch into viridian corrupter which took out my vial and essentially me out of the game.
Game 2: I kept a great opener of hierarch into thalia with ghostly, ewit, and blessed alliance. The play of the game was one I had thalia, ghostly, mana to blessed alliance and my opponent had blighted agent and glistener elf. He nature's claimed my ghostly and swung with his dudes. He become immensed the agent leaving 1 mana up and tried to mutagenic growth his agent too to kill me. I firststriked the elf dead and then made him sac the agent and essentially won.
Game 3: He mulled and kept an opener with glistener elf which ended up getting pathed when he tapped out. I then tec edged his inkmoth and he failed to draw another infector. I beat him to death while he hoped for the perfect top deck.
2-1
Takeaway: Infect can be hard and I may have lost the set if in game two my opponent put the mutagenic growth on the elf instead of the agent, but I also had a chance to ewit and recast the blessed even if he had done it right and killed thalia. His list was more prepared with that MD corrupter, but we still got there (and I believe would have gotten there even if he didn't make a mistake).
Round 3 vs Grixis Delver:
I'm on the draw Game one, but I manage to grind him out and kill his threats and win.
Game two: he has a pretty fast start and lands a tassy with a flipped delver and beat my face in.
Game three: It was super close in that I was almost able to take out all his threats, but he was able to protect his delver and pave the way for its attacks. I drew dead on the crucial turn and lost.
1-2 First loss of the tourney.
Takeaway: Grixis delver is a little different than grixis control in that path is much better here. I change from the aggro deck to the control deck here. In retrospect I should have GQed him after he serum visioned to try and stop him from drawing live and hope that I also drew live (even though I wouldn't). He could have not searched and still done it all, but it was probably worth trying. I'm not sure if I want something like Sigarda here as it comes down so late.
Round 4 vs suicide bloo (same guy as last time):
Game one: I'm on the draw, but my opponent has a pretty good hand and is able to essentially bolt my dudes until he lands 2 kiln fiends where he swings with both and then combos off on one and kills me despite my double thalia party.
Game two: I start with T2 arbiter GQ nonsense and manascrew him out of the game. Note: I had BFT backup which enabled me to keep arbiter alive past his bolt.
Game three: I mull to 6 and keep a vial, wisp, selfless, and lands hand. I topdeck a path and my opponent only had found a monastery swiftspear as his threat. I then get down a courser of kruphix and it starts getting me live draws where I get ewit to get wisp to get back path with a blessed alliance on top and win.
2-1.
Takeaway: I stand by that this match should be pretty easy and although they can be dangerous, our spot removal is too good with wisp nonsense and manataxing for them to properly function.
Round five vs Jeskai control:
Game one: he's on the draw and we have a pretty grindy game of him shooting my stuff down while I slowly get in damage until he just dies.
Game two: we both have a land light start, but I get to begin with BFT into thalia and beat face. Eventually he resolves Elspeth, Sun's Champion which is pretty good against me, but I was swinging with fliers and managed to beat him to death despite her.
2-0
Takeaway: It's strange. I have yet to see my new grind card (in the form of sigarda, host of herons), yet my deck seems to be grinding very well anyway. I wanted surgical over Rip in the match as it is unexpected and blanks a snap on the stack destroying their plans.
Overall Record: 4-1. I didn't do quite as well as last time, but 4-1 is still an excellent performance and I'm happy with the deck. I still can't say about the sigarda, but having seen rip as I did certainly helps. Although I did see two, so perhaps it would have been the same. I have yet to miss my stony silence.
I feel like I'm on the brink of taking this deck to the next level. I'd go as far as to say that this may well be the most competitive deck I've ever built. The remaining changes for this meta seem very SB based although I can possibly see a few small changes MD. For instance, what do you guys think about trying that sigarda MD in place of a resto?
@Finrod: sorry I still haven't tested your way with the vials. I'll try that in tournament practice rooms probably. I just can''t imagine not having vial even as a possibility against a deck like jeskai or grixis.
Sorry for the huge amount of content recently guys. Thanks for the support!
It'd be match up dependent for me. W/G is a variant I have played a little so your experience would make you more qualified to speak on the matter than me, but my philosophy would be that the tempo boost of a dork on the draw would allow me to develop faster than my opponent by putting me a turn up on mana production almost reversing the draw/play order while still drawing an extra card. On the play Vial matches their mana production on their previous turn allowing me to develop my board on pace with theirs while being proactive or reactive with my mana as I see fit. Granted certain decks make either vial or noble better so the cut is easier. For example I would cut most, if not all my vials against midrange, depending on if I had worthwhile stuff to justify the cut, because it is a deader draw than Noble. If I suspected pingers, wipes or -1/-1 effects obviously the nobles would go, but I imagine we're in agreement there. I also feel that Vial is sometimes way to slow on the draw and will occasionally cut one to reduce my chances of a dead draw later, especially when boarding in cards like RIP which don't provide immediate advantage or are dead draws in multiples.
It certainly is match dependent. Your absolutely right; hierarch can't help your mana if it's just going to eat a bolt. That's interesting though, because I tend to not cut all my vials against midrange as I feel that being able to push dudes that can't be countered onto the board and at flash enables me to get in hits I shouldn't otherwise be able to get in. Furthermore, it allows tricks like ours wisps saving guys from removal in a MU that's likely to be highly value centric.
To be perfectly honest, cutting only 1 of 1 or the other probably doesn't change the deck that much to matter significantly. I could try it in reverse, but I'm not sure I'll be able to really notice the difference until I've played a lot of games that way.
You make a good point about catching up on mana, but I often feel that the T2 plays hierarch opens up are just much less good when me opponent already has 2 mana and that's one of the main reasons I think this way.
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Part of our disagreement might come from the fact that EnT has pretty much been my variant since OGW. Like you said a one cut of either or would take a long time to figure out percentage wise which is the correct choice for your build. For me vial is great, but I have things like Displacer, Tidehollow Sculler, Selfless Spirit and TKS to handle removal spells and I don't need to rely as heavily on vial for Flickerwisp shennigans when I can replacate them with Displacer. I don't believe you are wrong. I was more just asking to understand what thought process you were using and how you evaluated certain lines of play which you certainly answered and then some. I can see why you favor your particular cuts.
As far as vial and midrange goes again it might come down to what lines of play we value more and what options we have available to use. I love vial and what it can potentially do, but against midrange decks without counter spells I tend to favor bringing in more heavy hitters, removal and CA generators.
First off. Happy New Years! Hope you all had a great one! I'm trying to set up a couple of streams this week to test some strategies out.
Wednesday Morning: I'd like to continue testing Eldrazi And Taxes. I think we know this is good, right? Well I want to spend some more time finding out if this is just solely the deck we should be playing at the moment.
Thursday All Day: I'm going to test some more Panda Taxes and UW Taxes. This is just more testing in anticipation of the upcoming announcements starting with Aether Revolt spoilers.
Let me know what times work. Set for you all. I'm also hoping to maybe catch a co-pilot for Thursday as well. I've been receiving a ton of support from you all and our Deathandcatmix channels on Twitch and Yourube have shown some growth recently. I appreciate all of you that are helping support myself, SpiderSpace and Jendo! I look forward to more success with community in 2017.
Also, any ideas on how to implement spoilers to the forum would be delightful. We have not really been able to line up a decent way to discuss cards in this forum as spoilers are announced. Any ideas on how to implement that would be appreciated!
I usually don't get home till 3-4 pm Eastern time so I don't know if I'll catch the Wednesday stream, but I'll definitely try to catch thursday's.
As for spoiler discussion, maybe we could preemptively develop a criterion for cards being worthy of testing. For example, the list could contain things like:
Upgrade to something already in the deck
Fulfills a need that the deck has such as adding consistency
Etc.
I don't know, but something that could be added to the primer so that everyone knows the context in which to talk about the cards.
Congrats on the finish Spider! I saw you were doing well, sucks you didn't make top 8 but 15th out of 100-plus players is still a great finish.
Anyway, what are people's thoughts on an Esper list with Merieke Ri Berit? At worst she draws out a removal spell that could get used on a Tidehollow Sculler or Spell Queller, at best she can completely decimate your opponent's board. Even if she isn't maindeck material she's still a great sideboard card against aggressive decks with little removal like Affinity and Merfolk. I'm not sure if the mana is worth it though; an Esper list with Merieke might even need to run a couple copies of Ancient Ziggurat to function consistently, and playing Merieke would probably mean giving up green cards and Eldrazi.
WB E&T wouldn't completely replace Paths as they provide exiled food for Stranglers. That being said, Fatal Push seems solid as MD paths 5-6, or sideboard material vs aggro decks. Regular WB D&T can more easily switch the ratios of paths and pushes to something like 2-4.
[EDIT] If this card becomes ubiquitous in Midrange and grindy decks, replacing general removal such as Terminate, Smashy Smashers will be in a much better position in these matchups.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH: UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
Does this Deck get worse now that Fatal Push has been made?
The card itself doesn't (reliably) kill as much in our deck as Bolt does so Fatal Push isn't necessarily anti-D&T tech.
Good black removal will definitely improve other decks but it's tough to say if that strengthens enough other decks in the meta to the point where D&T becomes a worse deck.
Heck, if we're lucky it could make greedy manabase tricolor decks even more popular to the point where our GQs cancel out the improved black removal. Dust off your Mindcensors, boys!
Does this Deck get worse now that Fatal Push has been made?
The card itself doesn't (reliably) kill as much in our deck as Bolt does so Fatal Push isn't necessarily anti-D&T tech.
Good black removal will definitely improve other decks but it's tough to say if that strengthens enough other decks in the meta to the point where D&T becomes a worse deck.
Heck, if we're lucky it could make greedy manabase tricolor decks even more popular to the point where our GQs cancel out the improved black removal. Dust off your Mindcensors, boys!
Our Ghost Quarters turn this on though. Also blinking things with Displacer and Wisp. Bolt doesn't kill TKS, this does.
I'm definitely going to Fatal Push out in my W/B sideboard instead of Dismember. Hits most of the problem creatures we want to hit outside of cards like Tasigur, and works against pump spells like mutagenic growth or become immense, and that's without having to trigger revolt.
As for the card being good against our deck, it's not to much different than bolt, though variants running Thought-Knot Seer might get hurt a bit more. More traditional DnT strats won't be hurt by it any more than they were by bolt, and most decks aren't going to run four copies of both.
We generally have a pretty smooth control matchup, especially when their manabase is greedy.
SpiderSpace, do you plan on streaming your GW D&T deck any time soon? I'd like to see it in action and I don't see any video history on your Twitch channel. Thanks for your reports here, very insightful!
Also, that means we will probably see more Delve creatures running around: Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler are immune to it and can come early.
Why do you cut vial on the play and heirarch on the draw? Wouldn't having a higher chance to hit hierarch on the draw be better for making up the mana differential between being on the play and on the draw by putting you ahead of your opponent potential production wise? Especially with Gemstone Cavern? Or os Cavern the reason you feeling comfortable cutting a hierarch?
Cavern shouldn't make too much of a difference either way as it as a 1 of isn't that statistically relevant.
The thought process there is that my hierarch into X turn 3 are often very aggressive (i.e. T2 arbiter + gq or big thalia) and that vial puts me more on a defensive reactionary plan. By going second, I feel that at least to begin with, my opponent is more in the drivers seat and I must react. Hierarch is still of course good and I want T1 consistency, but the particular lines I mentioned are less alluring when they are already up on mana.
Gemstone of course is there to try and reverse this a bit, but as I said, it's only a 1 of.
Does that not make sense to you? Would you cut it in the reverse way?
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
It'd be match up dependent for me. W/G is a variant I have played a little so your experience would make you more qualified to speak on the matter than me, but my philosophy would be that the tempo boost of a dork on the draw would allow me to develop faster than my opponent by putting me a turn up on mana production almost reversing the draw/play order while still drawing an extra card. On the play Vial matches their mana production on their previous turn allowing me to develop my board on pace with theirs while being proactive or reactive with my mana as I see fit. Granted certain decks make either vial or noble better so the cut is easier. For example I would cut most, if not all my vials against midrange, depending on if I had worthwhile stuff to justify the cut, because it is a deader draw than Noble. If I suspected pingers, wipes or -1/-1 effects obviously the nobles would go, but I imagine we're in agreement there. I also feel that Vial is sometimes way to slow on the draw and will occasionally cut one to reduce my chances of a dead draw later, especially when boarding in cards like RIP which don't provide immediate advantage or are dead draws in multiples.
It certainly is match dependent. Your absolutely right; hierarch can't help your mana if it's just going to eat a bolt. That's interesting though, because I tend to not cut all my vials against midrange as I feel that being able to push dudes that can't be countered onto the board and at flash enables me to get in hits I shouldn't otherwise be able to get in. Furthermore, it allows tricks like ours wisps saving guys from removal in a MU that's likely to be highly value centric.
To be perfectly honest, cutting only 1 of 1 or the other probably doesn't change the deck that much to matter significantly. I could try it in reverse, but I'm not sure I'll be able to really notice the difference until I've played a lot of games that way.
You make a good point about catching up on mana, but I often feel that the T2 plays hierarch opens up are just much less good when me opponent already has 2 mana and that's one of the main reasons I think this way.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
It certainly was close! Yeah, thanks. I got quite a few packs out of the whole thing, but I really was gunning for that top 8.
I don't view grixis as a good MU, but I also think it IS winnable. I'd like to point out that both of my games against them went to the third game and that even so, they were close.
I've thought about Sigarda, host of herons before and I can see her being pretty decent. I think they play a similar SB role though and I'm not convinced that she'd be better than gideon. He can take the game over if left unchecked, although may be easier to get rid of than sigarda unless my opponent has a wrath. He does come done a turn earlier if I don't have thalia though and that's worth mentioning.
I don't think it's accurate to say that we have a great tron MU. I think U tron is pretty easy and the recent G/W tron is doable with GR tron being the hardest. Valakut is pretty easy if they're on scapeshift. I think it's harder if they're on titan which most variants are these days (although probably still in our favor). I would hate not being able to bring much of anything in against these decks, but perhaps you're right that I have to pick my poison.
Rip shuts down dredge better than surgical, but rip costs mana meaning it may come down after they've already put X number of dudes to beat face on the board and meaning it costs tempo. And they're prepared for Rip with their 4 nature's claims whereas they can't do anything about surgical.
Additionally there are decks where surgicaling out a bolt form a snap is better than just slamming rip on the table T2.
And yes, I can definitely try that. That is not how I normally would side against GBx (that is the MU you're referring to there right?)
Also, I'll test the 3 rip 1 surgical against the 2/2 split as well as sigarda in the board. I may try sigarda with gideon as opposed to replacing him.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
The thought process there is that I already have worship, 2 ghostly, and a rec sage in the board for affinity and that they are a low percentage of the meta right now (mostly because of dredge I think). If they represented a larger portion of the field, I wouldn't cut stony. The card is also good against ad nasueuam where we already have a good MU and against lantern where even when Iran them, I'd never resolved one and even if I had, they also run nature's claim and abrupt decay. It's a good versatile card, but those 3 decks don't represent a large enough portion of the meta to make the cut for me right now. I know I now have 5 anti GY effects which is a bit much, but surgical is very versatile and I'm hesitant to cut it. I'll use this PPTQ to test my changes.
Game one: I went first and lead with a hierarch which he bolted. The following turn I played a second hierarch which he also bolted. Then I played scooze which ate a terminate. Finally, I landed a selfless spirit and started swinging. I had resto mana up and was patient. He eventually dealt with both cards, but my second resto made it in and ended him.
Game two: I kept an opener with lots of lands and a resto and a rip. I drew pretty live and rip did a lot of work for me. He played a decently grindy game, but it felt pretty easy.
2-0.
Takeway: rip seems to be doing its job. I saw 2 of them in the game and that could have been a bit much if it was a tighter match, but it wasn't so I guess it's A-okay.
Round 2 vs Infect:
Game 1: I'm on the draw and my opponent opened with hierarch into viridian corrupter which took out my vial and essentially me out of the game.
Game 2: I kept a great opener of hierarch into thalia with ghostly, ewit, and blessed alliance. The play of the game was one I had thalia, ghostly, mana to blessed alliance and my opponent had blighted agent and glistener elf. He nature's claimed my ghostly and swung with his dudes. He become immensed the agent leaving 1 mana up and tried to mutagenic growth his agent too to kill me. I firststriked the elf dead and then made him sac the agent and essentially won.
Game 3: He mulled and kept an opener with glistener elf which ended up getting pathed when he tapped out. I then tec edged his inkmoth and he failed to draw another infector. I beat him to death while he hoped for the perfect top deck.
2-1
Takeaway: Infect can be hard and I may have lost the set if in game two my opponent put the mutagenic growth on the elf instead of the agent, but I also had a chance to ewit and recast the blessed even if he had done it right and killed thalia. His list was more prepared with that MD corrupter, but we still got there (and I believe would have gotten there even if he didn't make a mistake).
Round 3 vs Grixis Delver:
I'm on the draw Game one, but I manage to grind him out and kill his threats and win.
Game two: he has a pretty fast start and lands a tassy with a flipped delver and beat my face in.
Game three: It was super close in that I was almost able to take out all his threats, but he was able to protect his delver and pave the way for its attacks. I drew dead on the crucial turn and lost.
1-2 First loss of the tourney.
Takeaway: Grixis delver is a little different than grixis control in that path is much better here. I change from the aggro deck to the control deck here. In retrospect I should have GQed him after he serum visioned to try and stop him from drawing live and hope that I also drew live (even though I wouldn't). He could have not searched and still done it all, but it was probably worth trying. I'm not sure if I want something like Sigarda here as it comes down so late.
Round 4 vs suicide bloo (same guy as last time):
Game one: I'm on the draw, but my opponent has a pretty good hand and is able to essentially bolt my dudes until he lands 2 kiln fiends where he swings with both and then combos off on one and kills me despite my double thalia party.
Game two: I start with T2 arbiter GQ nonsense and manascrew him out of the game. Note: I had BFT backup which enabled me to keep arbiter alive past his bolt.
Game three: I mull to 6 and keep a vial, wisp, selfless, and lands hand. I topdeck a path and my opponent only had found a monastery swiftspear as his threat. I then get down a courser of kruphix and it starts getting me live draws where I get ewit to get wisp to get back path with a blessed alliance on top and win.
2-1.
Takeaway: I stand by that this match should be pretty easy and although they can be dangerous, our spot removal is too good with wisp nonsense and manataxing for them to properly function.
Round five vs Jeskai control:
Game one: he's on the draw and we have a pretty grindy game of him shooting my stuff down while I slowly get in damage until he just dies.
Game two: we both have a land light start, but I get to begin with BFT into thalia and beat face. Eventually he resolves Elspeth, Sun's Champion which is pretty good against me, but I was swinging with fliers and managed to beat him to death despite her.
2-0
Takeaway: It's strange. I have yet to see my new grind card (in the form of sigarda, host of herons), yet my deck seems to be grinding very well anyway. I wanted surgical over Rip in the match as it is unexpected and blanks a snap on the stack destroying their plans.
Overall Record: 4-1. I didn't do quite as well as last time, but 4-1 is still an excellent performance and I'm happy with the deck. I still can't say about the sigarda, but having seen rip as I did certainly helps. Although I did see two, so perhaps it would have been the same. I have yet to miss my stony silence.
I feel like I'm on the brink of taking this deck to the next level. I'd go as far as to say that this may well be the most competitive deck I've ever built. The remaining changes for this meta seem very SB based although I can possibly see a few small changes MD. For instance, what do you guys think about trying that sigarda MD in place of a resto?
@Finrod: sorry I still haven't tested your way with the vials. I'll try that in tournament practice rooms probably. I just can''t imagine not having vial even as a possibility against a deck like jeskai or grixis.
Sorry for the huge amount of content recently guys. Thanks for the support!
~Spider
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Part of our disagreement might come from the fact that EnT has pretty much been my variant since OGW. Like you said a one cut of either or would take a long time to figure out percentage wise which is the correct choice for your build. For me vial is great, but I have things like Displacer, Tidehollow Sculler, Selfless Spirit and TKS to handle removal spells and I don't need to rely as heavily on vial for Flickerwisp shennigans when I can replacate them with Displacer. I don't believe you are wrong. I was more just asking to understand what thought process you were using and how you evaluated certain lines of play which you certainly answered and then some. I can see why you favor your particular cuts.
As far as vial and midrange goes again it might come down to what lines of play we value more and what options we have available to use. I love vial and what it can potentially do, but against midrange decks without counter spells I tend to favor bringing in more heavy hitters, removal and CA generators.
First off. Happy New Years! Hope you all had a great one! I'm trying to set up a couple of streams this week to test some strategies out.
Wednesday Morning: I'd like to continue testing Eldrazi And Taxes. I think we know this is good, right? Well I want to spend some more time finding out if this is just solely the deck we should be playing at the moment.
Thursday All Day: I'm going to test some more Panda Taxes and UW Taxes. This is just more testing in anticipation of the upcoming announcements starting with Aether Revolt spoilers.
Let me know what times work. Set for you all. I'm also hoping to maybe catch a co-pilot for Thursday as well. I've been receiving a ton of support from you all and our Deathandcatmix channels on Twitch and Yourube have shown some growth recently. I appreciate all of you that are helping support myself, SpiderSpace and Jendo! I look forward to more success with community in 2017.
Also, any ideas on how to implement spoilers to the forum would be delightful. We have not really been able to line up a decent way to discuss cards in this forum as spoilers are announced. Any ideas on how to implement that would be appreciated!
Later y'all,
Catmix
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
I usually don't get home till 3-4 pm Eastern time so I don't know if I'll catch the Wednesday stream, but I'll definitely try to catch thursday's.
As for spoiler discussion, maybe we could preemptively develop a criterion for cards being worthy of testing. For example, the list could contain things like:
I don't know, but something that could be added to the primer so that everyone knows the context in which to talk about the cards.
Anyway, what are people's thoughts on an Esper list with Merieke Ri Berit? At worst she draws out a removal spell that could get used on a Tidehollow Sculler or Spell Queller, at best she can completely decimate your opponent's board. Even if she isn't maindeck material she's still a great sideboard card against aggressive decks with little removal like Affinity and Merfolk. I'm not sure if the mana is worth it though; an Esper list with Merieke might even need to run a couple copies of Ancient Ziggurat to function consistently, and playing Merieke would probably mean giving up green cards and Eldrazi.
Did you guys see the new card? I guess that WB DnT variants could use a few or replace path, imo. What do you think?
WB E&T wouldn't completely replace Paths as they provide exiled food for Stranglers. That being said, Fatal Push seems solid as MD paths 5-6, or sideboard material vs aggro decks. Regular WB D&T can more easily switch the ratios of paths and pushes to something like 2-4.
[EDIT] If this card becomes ubiquitous in Midrange and grindy decks, replacing general removal such as Terminate, Smashy Smashers will be in a much better position in these matchups.
BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH:
UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
WB Eldrazi and Taxes BW
Good black removal will definitely improve other decks but it's tough to say if that strengthens enough other decks in the meta to the point where D&T becomes a worse deck.
Heck, if we're lucky it could make greedy manabase tricolor decks even more popular to the point where our GQs cancel out the improved black removal. Dust off your Mindcensors, boys!
Our Ghost Quarters turn this on though. Also blinking things with Displacer and Wisp. Bolt doesn't kill TKS, this does.
WB Eldrazi and Taxes BW
As for the card being good against our deck, it's not to much different than bolt, though variants running Thought-Knot Seer might get hurt a bit more. More traditional DnT strats won't be hurt by it any more than they were by bolt, and most decks aren't going to run four copies of both.
We generally have a pretty smooth control matchup, especially when their manabase is greedy.
Also, that means we will probably see more Delve creatures running around: Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler are immune to it and can come early.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W