im running 4 concealed and haven't had any problems. i suggest running a kambal in the board for spell heavy decks. also anguished unmaking has been huge for me.
Yeah I'm not sure about how many Shambling Vents is best. I've been running 2 forever, but there's been numerous matches where I needed one and never drew it (though that happens with my 4 ofs occasionally too, just variance). 3 manlands sounds great and I've been meaning to test it, just not sure if it's too slow.
Sideboard: Kambal, Consul of Allocation does seem pretty noice. I've had one in board for the past week but haven't had the opportunity to use it. How's he being for you artfranc007? I'm not particularly sure if he's better than the other hate out there.
Anguished Unmaking I've always had one, it's great having an almost universal answer at instant speed.
Gut Shot I use instead of Darkblast. Great against Infect, but I brought it in for the dreadful (seemingly unbeatable) Elves matchup too. It's great to ambush that Heritage Druid and stop them spewing out their hand on turn 2-3. Not a particularly common deck though, and Darkblast's recursion sounds good.
Dismember and Celestial Purge are great removal spells, I'd suggest at least one of either maybe instead of a Big Game Hunter
Consider Enchantment hate too. Blood Moon is running around everywhere right now, and it does absolutely kill us if we don't have a Vial out (and even if we do it'll likely slow us down considerably). Disenchant and Seal of Cleansing come to mind (we really don't have many good options here, Celestial Purge is good here too which I've got as a 1-of).
Worship is one I've been using just recently instead of a Walker and it's actually won me games against Burn and Elves (I actually got the Firewalker and Worship on board against burn, hard locked him out). An Elspeth or Gideon would probably be better here, but I've been losing against hyper-aggro decks fairly often and just trying new things.
(Mausoleum Wanderer) I'm trying them myself atm. Sometimes they are pretty good but they get quickly worse the more the game progresses. I really like having an additional one drop though (The mana has not been a problem for me). But I think it's too close to judges familiar, which just isn't powerful enough either, to deserve a slot. There aren't enough good spirits to make it bigger reliably and continuously IMO. I think I will put them aside for now.
I would prefer seing a bw dark confidant list in action. (or the following thing)
GW EnT feat. Stirrings
Another idea I want to discuss with you guys is GW eldrazi and taxes with ancient stirrings. It's basically bant eldrazi without blue but instead plays the best DnT cards. Bant Eldrazi just splashes blue for Drowner, Skyspawner and a sideboard counterspell. IMO Skyspawner is not actually a good card and only makes the cut because it can be found with ancient stirrings and is easier to cast with Eldrazi Temple. Drowner is not bad but expensive and not needed in the current meta which is pretty fast. The synergy with eldrazi displacer is good but not much better than eldrazi displacer with flickerwisp.
What I want to say with this is that the actual powerful cards are TKS, Displacer, Smasher and most importantly ancient stirrings. Noble Hierarch is an important piece of the puzzle too and allows for a more consistent t2 TKS.
Ancient Stirrings finds: Displacer, TKS, Smasher, Spellskite, Revoker, Ghost quarter, Gavony Township, and potential sideboard cards. This card is the best card selection in modern and helps greatly with consisteny. And it finds the silver bullet taxers. The obvious downside is the dis-synergy with Thalia. But then again you have more mana at your disposal because of Hierach. Less mana flooding, less mana screws and more often the right taxer.
What do you all think of this? Opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Edit: @jendo87. Yeah hitting for 5 sounds nice. I would rather not go three colors though. What do you think of Wanderer in general? I like your stream too! If you allow some criticism I would prefer it without music and mtgo sound effects as it can be quite hard to understand what you are saying (acoustically).
I believe Jendo and I have both tested variants of this and I believe I can speak for both of us when I say that it really just feels like you're playing a worse bant eldrazi. Essentially, think about it like this; what MUs are cards like thalia, guardian of thraben going to win you over their bigger better topdecks ? If you feel like this number is significant, then we may have something here.
When I ran it, I was playing Oath of Nissa instead of ancient stirrings, but it's functionally similar. I will however say that it feels absolutely great when you get to displaceeternal witness and just out value your opponent. Perhaps the deck needs revisiting.
(Mausoleum Wanderer) I'm trying them myself atm. Sometimes they are pretty good but they get quickly worse the more the game progresses. I really like having an additional one drop though (The mana has not been a problem for me). But I think it's too close to judges familiar, which just isn't powerful enough either, to deserve a slot. There aren't enough good spirits to make it bigger reliably and continuously IMO. I think I will put them aside for now.
I would prefer seing a bw dark confidant list in action. (or the following thing)
GW EnT feat. Stirrings
Another idea I want to discuss with you guys is GW eldrazi and taxes with ancient stirrings. It's basically bant eldrazi without blue but instead plays the best DnT cards. Bant Eldrazi just splashes blue for Drowner, Skyspawner and a sideboard counterspell. IMO Skyspawner is not actually a good card and only makes the cut because it can be found with ancient stirrings and is easier to cast with Eldrazi Temple. Drowner is not bad but expensive and not needed in the current meta which is pretty fast. The synergy with eldrazi displacer is good but not much better than eldrazi displacer with flickerwisp.
What I want to say with this is that the actual powerful cards are TKS, Displacer, Smasher and most importantly ancient stirrings. Noble Hierarch is an important piece of the puzzle too and allows for a more consistent t2 TKS.
Ancient Stirrings finds: Displacer, TKS, Smasher, Spellskite, Revoker, Ghost quarter, Gavony Township, and potential sideboard cards. This card is the best card selection in modern and helps greatly with consisteny. And it finds the silver bullet taxers. The obvious downside is the dis-synergy with Thalia. But then again you have more mana at your disposal because of Hierach. Less mana flooding, less mana screws and more often the right taxer.
What do you all think of this? Opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Edit: @jendo87. Yeah hitting for 5 sounds nice. I would rather not go three colors though. What do you think of Wanderer in general? I like your stream too! If you allow some criticism I would prefer it without music and mtgo sound effects as it can be quite hard to understand what you are saying (acoustically).
I believe Jendo and I have both tested variants of this and I believe I can speak for both of us when I say that it really just feels like you're playing a worse bant eldrazi. Essentially, think about it like this; what MUs are cards like thalia, guardian of thraben going to win you over their bigger better topdecks ? If you feel like this number is significant, then we may have something here.
When I ran it, I was playing Oath of Nissa instead of ancient stirrings, but it's functionally similar. I will however say that it feels absolutely great when you get to displaceeternal witness and just out value your opponent. Perhaps the deck needs revisiting.
Well I mean TKS and Displacer are already widely used in DnT. All the cards in this list are pretty much DnT staples besides Smasher and Stirrings. Stirrings is the only actual new card I'm proposing, the rest is pretty much a DnT shell. I just think if you make one or two card choices with Stirrings in mind (Spellskite, Revoker) you have enough targets to reliably have it be great. The advantage of this over Bant eldrazi is the numerous early plays it offers(which bant is sometimes missing) and the additional angle of attack (the taxers and flickerswisp).
Well I mean TKS and Displacer are already widely used in DnT. All the cards in this list are pretty much DnT staples besides Smasher and Stirrings.
I would be careful with this verbage. While TKS and Displacer are both used in D&T, they are only used in the E&T versions. They are good, but they are not core cards for the deck.
Stirrings is the only actual new card I'm proposing, the rest is pretty much a DnT shell. I just think if you make one or two card choices with Stirrings in mind (Spellskite, Revoker) you have enough targets to reliably have it be great.
Stirrings can findlands, so like Oath of Nissa, the card is never dead. You probably don't need to water down your deck with extra colorless creatures; you just hope to hit a TKS, Displacer, or utility land, with the worst case scenario being that you have to settle for an additional land in hand.
The advantage of this over Bant eldrazi is the numerous early plays it offers(which bant is sometimes missing) and the additional angle of attack (the taxers and flickerswisp).
You're essentially sacrificing power and inevitability for tempo. That's a fine thought experiment, but you've taken what makes Bant Eldrazi good and replaced it with something the deck probably didn't need.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Sure maybe staple is not the best word but they are widely used in bw, mono white and sometimes uw or gw. The actual core of the deck is really small anyway.
I wouldn't say water down as at least spellskite is a totally maindeckable card in both DnT and Bant eldrazi. But maybe Revoker is better in the SB.
You're essentially sacrificing power and inevitability for tempo. That's a fine thought experiment, but you've taken what makes Bant Eldrazi good and replaced it with something the deck probably didn't need.
While it's true that the lategame power would be smaller I don't think that this is the part that makes Bant Eldrazi good. Bant Eldrazi is good because it can consistently cheat on mana. Without Temple this deck would not exist.
Of all the Eldrazi decks being played I would say that Bant Eldrazi is the most widely played Eldrazi variant because of its consistency which comes from reliable mana cheating in Temple, Noble Hierarch and Stirrings which finds Temple. It is an aggro deck that can play bigger threats then the normal aggro deck because of its sol land. This is the heart of Bant Eldrazi and the place where its power comes from IMO.
Looking from a more DnT perspective: If you play a Gw version with some Eldrazi (which many players are already doing) and utility lands (which we of course always do) Ancient Stirrings just seems like a really good fit to me.
Yeah I'm not sure about how many Shambling Vents is best. I've been running 2 forever, but there's been numerous matches where I needed one and never drew it (though that happens with my 4 ofs occasionally too, just variance). 3 manlands sounds great and I've been meaning to test it, just not sure if it's too slow.
Sideboard: Kambal, Consul of Allocation does seem pretty noice. I've had one in board for the past week but haven't had the opportunity to use it. How's he being for you artfranc007? I'm not particularly sure if he's better than the other hate out there.
Anguished Unmaking I've always had one, it's great having an almost universal answer at instant speed.
Gut Shot I use instead of Darkblast. Great against Infect, but I brought it in for the dreadful (seemingly unbeatable) Elves matchup too. It's great to ambush that Heritage Druid and stop them spewing out their hand on turn 2-3. Not a particularly common deck though, and Darkblast's recursion sounds good.
Dismember and Celestial Purge are great removal spells, I'd suggest at least one of either maybe instead of a Big Game Hunter
Consider Enchantment hate too. Blood Moon is running around everywhere right now, and it does absolutely kill us if we don't have a Vial out (and even if we do it'll likely slow us down considerably). Disenchant and Seal of Cleansing come to mind (we really don't have many good options here, Celestial Purge is good here too which I've got as a 1-of).
Worship is one I've been using just recently instead of a Walker and it's actually won me games against Burn and Elves (I actually got the Firewalker and Worship on board against burn, hard locked him out). An Elspeth or Gideon would probably be better here, but I've been losing against hyper-aggro decks fairly often and just trying new things.
Thanks for the help, I think the sideboard is better now.
Also, on my 1-of spot I have a Restoration Angel, fills the flying / x/4 / flickering spot, but 5 4cc may be too much, Im not sure.
What would you guys fit in that spot? Restoration Angel, 4th Wasteland Strangler, or 3rd Wall of Resurgence?
This is my decklist for BW Eldrazi & Taxes. I find the manabase much smoother with the recently added fastlands, the one-of Orzhov Pontiff has been versatile enough, and the one-of Sorin is huge if you have any board state at all. I find the lifegain very relevant vs aggro decks and the +1/+0 pump can be relevant to clock your opponents even a turn faster. The sideboard packs additional disruption against combo/non-interactive/creature-light decks, and a pro-color package of 2 Mirran Crusaders + 2 Auriok Champions. Smashers aside, the rest of the choices are pretty much standard.
Against Jund, I feel like I want to remove all my Vials and Scullers to maximize relevant top decks and to avoid an overgrown Goyf. I come to realize that a Sculler in the battlefield is nice disruption, but in the graveyard is a nightmare, as it instantly gives enemy Goys +2/+2. This is the sort of setback that can easily put Jund in the driver seat. Hence, my sideboard plan is to get these cards out and get all my creatures + rest in peaces in (granted, I also need to board in a singleton Zealous Persecution just to add to 60, but oh well). Figuring out your play style against grindy decks is not easy and this plan is not the ultimate answer.
@Stabil0, I don't think stirrings are terrible but I don't think it's good enough in our deck to be played. It has the same downfall as oath of Nissa in that it's a bad card for us to play on the curve as it costs at least one precious green mana (and perhaps a colorless on top of that) of tempo and doesn't apply a control element, pressure or both. Bant eldrazi can get away with this by being more comfortable in the midrange than we are.
Also like oath, it will be unable to find many of our better sideboard cards. As an example; oath would find scooze but miss relic while stirrings will find relic but miss scooze. Both skip over rest in peace and path to exile which are our best solutions to many situations.
I suppose that if you went artifact/colorless heavy in your sideboard then it may be worth a shot.
Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
In G/W what are some good cards vs. Bant Eldrazi, Soul Sisters and Elves? Haven't been able to win a game vs. those decks. Bant Eldrazi is the one I am most concerned about.
In G/W what are some good cards vs. Bant Eldrazi, Soul Sisters and Elves?
Controversial Gearhulk might work for you (especially since G/W finds it easier to cast compared to B/W or W/W). Do a quick thread search for Cataclysmic Gearhulk if you want more detail on the pros/cons as there has been a decent amount of "discussion" on the card; depending on how often (percentage-wise) you run into Sisters/Elves/Eldrazi in your meta it might or might not be worth the slots.
But, basically it might be a good proactive boardwipe+beater for your Sisters/Elves match-ups; while versus Eldrazi it should help somewhat also, assuming you dumped less of your hand onto the board than they did (keeping 2 permanents to their keep 1 is also a strong plus).
Worship is probably also a good option since none of those decks bring much in the way of boardwipes and/or enchantment hate.
In G/W what are some good cards vs. Bant Eldrazi, Soul Sisters and Elves? Haven't been able to win a game vs. those decks. Bant Eldrazi is the one I am most concerned about.
Although soul sisters and elves are traditionally very bad MUs for us. I used to have trouble with bant eldrazi, but I find the MU to be close, but generally favorable for us.
@Chaarm, everything the others have said is sound advice. I'll add that scooze can eventually outsize their creatures. Smiter can be played for free off a smasher trigger. Also, don't be able to block disadvantageously. GW is king of value and double blocking a thought-knot seer with a finks and voice of resurgence lets you come out way ahead. Selfless spirit is also great for collective blocking. The only must kill creature they have is displacer.
A card that works against eldrazi and elves is linvala, keeper of silence. She turns off displacer, ezuri and mana dorks.
Finally, wrath effects work against all three. This is something I was considering earlier and your post just reinforces my earlier thoughts. Gw has outstanding threat density between topdecks, cocos and good manlands/drawlands . I think wraths have a place there. I haven't tested this but it seems logical enough.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
Last night at fnm I tested out bant dnt. This isn't a fine tuned list but rather proof of concept.
My goals were threefold:
-first, cast my creatures on the curve while maintaining resilience against blood moon. This will be accomplished by going playing five fetchlands at the cost of one fewer arbiter.
-second, use the combination of control elements to handle fair decks and mitigate unfair decks by countering key spells;
-third, be able to maintain a strong clock both on the ground and in the air. This will be accomplished by having flexibility in using exalted triggers and evasion/first strike to power hits through or around early blockers and going big with scooze/wide with coco in mid-late game.
Turnout was lackluster and several players dropped to draft so I only got two test matches in.
Round one was versus a player of comparable skill piloting a RUG midrange bordering on control deck. He played heavy countermagic which I was able to crush between Thalia, arbiter and queller/sprite. Sprite proved strong in countering bolts and spell snares.
-Game two was a grind fest where I kept a questionable hand and was mana screwed in the early game and flooded later on. Luckily, I drew the lower cmc cards and was able to stick in the game. He played huntmaster of the fells as a value card but I was able to use unconventional double blocking to deny him true card advantage. I scooped prematurely in game two and could have held out a few more turns but would probably not have won.
-Game three was another grind fest. We traded resources until I was in a position of advantage. He answered with anger of the gods. I was able to slowly recover and build a solid board as time was called. I was unable to finish in turns. Eidolon of rhetoric proved to be fun here but I'm not sure about great.
It's very amusing when combined with resto and queller.
Match two was against a player of lower although still competent skill level. He piloted bant company with geist of saint traft and knight of the reliquary. He included a singleton return to coralhelm although it never saw play.
-I had all the answers in game one and was able to fully control the board. It feels great to answer a coco with a coco and reveal a queller and flickerwisp.
-Game two was grindy with me flooding slightly. He drew more haymakers than I drew answers and was able to finish.
-Game three was like a slower game one. The scooze clock was there and it prevented knights from getting out of control but it was slow.
In terms of testing results, the objectives were all successful although none were smashingly so.
-I was able to cast my stuff on or ahead of the curve when I wasn't mana screwed. This is impressive as I kept several hands that would be very reasonable to mulligan and the fact that this deck is very thirsty for colored mana. Arbiter proved to be relevant against opponents but also resulted in some clunky turns for me. I think those slots would be better served as something else. Perhaps mindcensor but that leaves much of the deck as x/1s. I didn't face any blood moon type effects but I'm convinced that between drawing/fetching for basics, vial and hierarch that it would not have shut me out of the game aside from a nuts draw and blood moon ahead of the curve.
-This list played like a control deck. I was able to answer practically everything these two fair decks could throw at me. Spell queller is an all star. I think a set is reasonable if pursuing a list like this. Spellstutter sprite effectively answers cheap removal and haymaker 0 cmc spells that are cheated out. These are two things that GW has trouble with. I don't know if it deserves to be played main deck though. Another possibility is that they should be negate. At the cost of being taxed, not having legs and not being found off coco it would answer much more. Scooze is great in this meta. It turns snapcasters and goyfs into chump blockers and mitigates knights of the reliquary. I wouldn't leave home without three main deck right now. Overall, I was pleased as this list is heavy on control and was able to manage boards unless the opposition drew an inordinate amount of must answer cards. More removal would be nice though.
-Objective three was to be able to present a clock while maintaining the aforementioned goals and was conditional on them. This was successful although only in a lukewarm sense of the word. I was able to apply pressure against these fair midrange decks but it wasn't strong pressure. One of the reasons this may be is that I held up coco as an answer rather than a way to generate pressure on board. It was correct in that it worked as an answer each time but perhaps not. Exalted triggers were not quite as good as expected here. I was satisfied with them although not overwhelmingly so. I think one of the downfalls of this deck is that it must go wide to apply control and pressure. This is when it's most vulnerable to sweepers like anger and verdict and least able to answer them. I also think the manabase could do with more manlands but wildwoods etb tapped.
I would have loved to play brimaz, eternal witness, serra avenger and eldrazi displacer in this deck but didn't have the slots open. The flex spots as of right now are pridemage, arbiters, restos and spellstutter sprites. In the case of displacer, I don't think the manabase would be able to take advantage of it either.
Hope you've enjoyed the read and please leave any feedback.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
Thanks for all the different input on ancient stirrings /gw eldrazi guys. Really appreciate it.
Also nice stream Spiderspace, thx. Cool to see the decks in action. I have not yet watched all of it but still already have an input on your GW list:
I think that maye Spellskite should be in the main instead of Selfless Spirit. Your deck can be pretty grindy with Displacer, Witness and the higher curve so it's a bit more midrange than tempo oriented. Which makes the damage on Selfless Spirit less important and the early blocker and the "protect TKS/Smasher from path and Displacer from bolt" ability in Spellskite more important.
@dsmonsta: I've been playing uw in the last few weeks and therefore have some inputs on your list. Spellqueller is fantastic IMO and I like having four. But it is a card that needs the proper surroundings (personally I have not completly found it yet in UW). Much more than other cards do. I think the flash plan is good. The more flash cards you have the better they get as you can leave your mana open and respond with the right answer. Therefore I really liked Resto in uw. Also Clique could be something to consider. Maybe Skaab Ruinator could be good in a CoCo deck as we now have Vial, CoCo and the possibility to hardcast. Tamiyo, Field Researcher looks pretty powerful too. Could be a Sb option.
Besides that I'm not sure on going three colors with fetches and without/less arbiter. This would go into the Maverick / Knightfall direction. If you play bant without arbiters but with fetches Knotr gets really good but then you are almost playing Knightfall.
@stabil0, I like knight of the reliquary and retreat to coralhelm based on their own merit but in order to assemble the combo you have to build your manabase towards that and I don't think that's possible to do while still being a dnt deck.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
@dsmonsta: I've currently playing Bant D&T, and I have been for the past few weeks. It definitely works (as a proof of concept); I just haven't found it to be significantly more effective than WG D&T.
Personally, I don't happen to like your list because I don't think you have a win condition. I prefer proactive (tempo) D&T to reactive (control) D&T. In this list, you will have to wait for your opponent to play specific spells, before you opt to counter them. Sure, it will occasionally play like a tempo deck (you drop a threat and then protect it), but this list will play much better with an Aether Vial than without.
My guess is that you're going to have significant weaknesses to burn and a rough Jund/Abzan matchup, but that you will absolutely wreck control.
I'm still not sure how you're getting away with 4 copies of Horizon Canopy, but I suspect that it has something to do with the 3 maindeck Scavenging Ooze.
Ultimately, the question here shouldn't be "is Bant playable?" because the answer to that is simply "yes, it is." The question should be "is adding the 3rd color worth the cost of destabilizing the D&T manabase?" and the answer to that is still up in the air.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
@stabil0, I like knight of the reliquary and retreat to coralhelm based on their own merit but in order to assemble the combo you have to build your manabase towards that and I don't think that's possible to do while still being a dnt deck.
That's what I mean. If you play Bant with fetches and a more fragile mana base / less utility lands and leave Arbiter behind anyway then I think you are getting closer to a Knightfall list and are less a DnT deck. I don't actually know if the third color is worth it then or if you shouldn't just do the next step an play Knightfall.
I don't have Hierarchs to test bant, but I have tested esper. I think you want to pick the third color as a splash whether that be blue or green. If blue is the splash I think just running spell queller is the right call and you should drop sprite. If green is the splash, I think you have to drop scooze and maybe keep the green cards to noble hierarch and collected company or just collected company because casting a green one drop reliably on a splash color can be hard. If you keep your utility lands in ghost quarter and tec edge, then you can certainly support displacer with a mix of painlands in the colors you need.
I have played up to four fethces in my esper list with arbiter, and from my testing fetches seem like they are good but they can really mess with your manabase numbers. They get to count for each color you need, but at the same time they cut into the number of actual colored mana producing lands you have. The occasional awkward hand with arbiter does come up, and they can force you to sequence against your will. Imo, especially with arbiter, 5 is too many. If you pick green as your splash I think I would want to cut them down to maybe 2. You might, however, be able to run more if blue is your splash color.
Also I think cutting arbiters is a mistake if you play green because green allows you to have more consistent mana denial by upping your plan a turn and progressing your board farther in comparison to your opponent faster.
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Sideboard:
Kambal, Consul of Allocation does seem pretty noice. I've had one in board for the past week but haven't had the opportunity to use it. How's he being for you artfranc007? I'm not particularly sure if he's better than the other hate out there.
Anguished Unmaking I've always had one, it's great having an almost universal answer at instant speed.
Gut Shot I use instead of Darkblast. Great against Infect, but I brought it in for the dreadful (seemingly unbeatable) Elves matchup too. It's great to ambush that Heritage Druid and stop them spewing out their hand on turn 2-3. Not a particularly common deck though, and Darkblast's recursion sounds good.
Dismember and Celestial Purge are great removal spells, I'd suggest at least one of either maybe instead of a Big Game Hunter
Consider Enchantment hate too. Blood Moon is running around everywhere right now, and it does absolutely kill us if we don't have a Vial out (and even if we do it'll likely slow us down considerably). Disenchant and Seal of Cleansing come to mind (we really don't have many good options here, Celestial Purge is good here too which I've got as a 1-of).
Kor Firewalker is a classic against burn and aggro.
Worship is one I've been using just recently instead of a Walker and it's actually won me games against Burn and Elves (I actually got the Firewalker and Worship on board against burn, hard locked him out). An Elspeth or Gideon would probably be better here, but I've been losing against hyper-aggro decks fairly often and just trying new things.
I believe Jendo and I have both tested variants of this and I believe I can speak for both of us when I say that it really just feels like you're playing a worse bant eldrazi. Essentially, think about it like this; what MUs are cards like thalia, guardian of thraben going to win you over their bigger better topdecks ? If you feel like this number is significant, then we may have something here.
When I ran it, I was playing Oath of Nissa instead of ancient stirrings, but it's functionally similar. I will however say that it feels absolutely great when you get to displace eternal witness and just out value your opponent. Perhaps the deck needs revisiting.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Well I mean TKS and Displacer are already widely used in DnT. All the cards in this list are pretty much DnT staples besides Smasher and Stirrings. Stirrings is the only actual new card I'm proposing, the rest is pretty much a DnT shell. I just think if you make one or two card choices with Stirrings in mind (Spellskite, Revoker) you have enough targets to reliably have it be great. The advantage of this over Bant eldrazi is the numerous early plays it offers(which bant is sometimes missing) and the additional angle of attack (the taxers and flickerswisp).
Stirrings can find lands, so like Oath of Nissa, the card is never dead. You probably don't need to water down your deck with extra colorless creatures; you just hope to hit a TKS, Displacer, or utility land, with the worst case scenario being that you have to settle for an additional land in hand.
You're essentially sacrificing power and inevitability for tempo. That's a fine thought experiment, but you've taken what makes Bant Eldrazi good and replaced it with something the deck probably didn't need.
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I wouldn't say water down as at least spellskite is a totally maindeckable card in both DnT and Bant eldrazi. But maybe Revoker is better in the SB.
While it's true that the lategame power would be smaller I don't think that this is the part that makes Bant Eldrazi good. Bant Eldrazi is good because it can consistently cheat on mana. Without Temple this deck would not exist.
Of all the Eldrazi decks being played I would say that Bant Eldrazi is the most widely played Eldrazi variant because of its consistency which comes from reliable mana cheating in Temple, Noble Hierarch and Stirrings which finds Temple. It is an aggro deck that can play bigger threats then the normal aggro deck because of its sol land. This is the heart of Bant Eldrazi and the place where its power comes from IMO.
Looking from a more DnT perspective: If you play a Gw version with some Eldrazi (which many players are already doing) and utility lands (which we of course always do) Ancient Stirrings just seems like a really good fit to me.
Thanks for the help, I think the sideboard is better now.
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Godless Shrine
3 Shambling Vent
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Plains
1 Swamp
Utility
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Wall of Resurgence
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Restoration Angel
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Dismember
1 Celestial Purge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Darkblast
2 Lingering Souls
Also, on my 1-of spot I have a Restoration Angel, fills the flying / x/4 / flickering spot, but 5 4cc may be too much, Im not sure.
What would you guys fit in that spot? Restoration Angel, 4th Wasteland Strangler, or 3rd Wall of Resurgence?
This is my decklist for BW Eldrazi & Taxes. I find the manabase much smoother with the recently added fastlands, the one-of Orzhov Pontiff has been versatile enough, and the one-of Sorin is huge if you have any board state at all. I find the lifegain very relevant vs aggro decks and the +1/+0 pump can be relevant to clock your opponents even a turn faster. The sideboard packs additional disruption against combo/non-interactive/creature-light decks, and a pro-color package of 2 Mirran Crusaders + 2 Auriok Champions. Smashers aside, the rest of the choices are pretty much standard.
Against Jund, I feel like I want to remove all my Vials and Scullers to maximize relevant top decks and to avoid an overgrown Goyf. I come to realize that a Sculler in the battlefield is nice disruption, but in the graveyard is a nightmare, as it instantly gives enemy Goys +2/+2. This is the sort of setback that can easily put Jund in the driver seat. Hence, my sideboard plan is to get these cards out and get all my creatures + rest in peaces in (granted, I also need to board in a singleton Zealous Persecution just to add to 60, but oh well). Figuring out your play style against grindy decks is not easy and this plan is not the ultimate answer.
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Godless Shrine
2 Concealed Courtyard
2 Shambling Vent
3 Plains
1 Swamp
Spells (9)
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Wasteland Strangler
1 Orzhov Pontiff
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reality Smasher
3 Thoughtseize
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Auriok Champion
2 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Stony Silence
BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH:
UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
Also like oath, it will be unable to find many of our better sideboard cards. As an example; oath would find scooze but miss relic while stirrings will find relic but miss scooze. Both skip over rest in peace and path to exile which are our best solutions to many situations.
I suppose that if you went artifact/colorless heavy in your sideboard then it may be worth a shot.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
But, basically it might be a good proactive boardwipe+beater for your Sisters/Elves match-ups; while versus Eldrazi it should help somewhat also, assuming you dumped less of your hand onto the board than they did (keeping 2 permanents to their keep 1 is also a strong plus).
Worship is probably also a good option since none of those decks bring much in the way of boardwipes and/or enchantment hate.
big thalia actually does a lot of work vs drazi and is a decent card in the meta period. Also spellskite can help against their displacers. phyrexian revoker can shut down key pieces of all of those decks.
Although soul sisters and elves are traditionally very bad MUs for us. I used to have trouble with bant eldrazi, but I find the MU to be close, but generally favorable for us.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
A card that works against eldrazi and elves is linvala, keeper of silence. She turns off displacer, ezuri and mana dorks.
Finally, wrath effects work against all three. This is something I was considering earlier and your post just reinforces my earlier thoughts. Gw has outstanding threat density between topdecks, cocos and good manlands/drawlands . I think wraths have a place there. I haven't tested this but it seems logical enough.
Last night at fnm I tested out bant dnt. This isn't a fine tuned list but rather proof of concept.
My goals were threefold:
-first, cast my creatures on the curve while maintaining resilience against blood moon. This will be accomplished by going playing five fetchlands at the cost of one fewer arbiter.
-second, use the combination of control elements to handle fair decks and mitigate unfair decks by countering key spells;
-third, be able to maintain a strong clock both on the ground and in the air. This will be accomplished by having flexibility in using exalted triggers and evasion/first strike to power hits through or around early blockers and going big with scooze/wide with coco in mid-late game.
4 path to exile
3 collected company
4 noble hierarch
3 Thalia, guardian of thraben
3 leonin arbiter
3 spellstutter sprite
3 scavenging ooze
1 qasali pridemage
4 flickerwisp
3 spell queller
2 restoration angel
4 windswept heath
1 misty rainforest
2 temple garden
1 breeding pool
2 forest
2 plains
1 island
4 horizon canopy
1 stirring wildwood
4 ghost quarter
1 gavony township
3 burrenton forge-tender
2 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze
1 Thalia, guardian of thraben
3 spellskite
1 aven mindcensor
1 eidolon of rhetoric
1 kitchen finks
1 reclamation sage
1 Gideon, ally of zendikar
Turnout was lackluster and several players dropped to draft so I only got two test matches in.
Round one was versus a player of comparable skill piloting a RUG midrange bordering on control deck. He played heavy countermagic which I was able to crush between Thalia, arbiter and queller/sprite. Sprite proved strong in countering bolts and spell snares.
-Game two was a grind fest where I kept a questionable hand and was mana screwed in the early game and flooded later on. Luckily, I drew the lower cmc cards and was able to stick in the game. He played huntmaster of the fells as a value card but I was able to use unconventional double blocking to deny him true card advantage. I scooped prematurely in game two and could have held out a few more turns but would probably not have won.
-Game three was another grind fest. We traded resources until I was in a position of advantage. He answered with anger of the gods. I was able to slowly recover and build a solid board as time was called. I was unable to finish in turns. Eidolon of rhetoric proved to be fun here but I'm not sure about great.
It's very amusing when combined with resto and queller.
Match two was against a player of lower although still competent skill level. He piloted bant company with geist of saint traft and knight of the reliquary. He included a singleton return to coralhelm although it never saw play.
-I had all the answers in game one and was able to fully control the board. It feels great to answer a coco with a coco and reveal a queller and flickerwisp.
-Game two was grindy with me flooding slightly. He drew more haymakers than I drew answers and was able to finish.
-Game three was like a slower game one. The scooze clock was there and it prevented knights from getting out of control but it was slow.
In terms of testing results, the objectives were all successful although none were smashingly so.
-I was able to cast my stuff on or ahead of the curve when I wasn't mana screwed. This is impressive as I kept several hands that would be very reasonable to mulligan and the fact that this deck is very thirsty for colored mana. Arbiter proved to be relevant against opponents but also resulted in some clunky turns for me. I think those slots would be better served as something else. Perhaps mindcensor but that leaves much of the deck as x/1s. I didn't face any blood moon type effects but I'm convinced that between drawing/fetching for basics, vial and hierarch that it would not have shut me out of the game aside from a nuts draw and blood moon ahead of the curve.
-This list played like a control deck. I was able to answer practically everything these two fair decks could throw at me. Spell queller is an all star. I think a set is reasonable if pursuing a list like this. Spellstutter sprite effectively answers cheap removal and haymaker 0 cmc spells that are cheated out. These are two things that GW has trouble with. I don't know if it deserves to be played main deck though. Another possibility is that they should be negate. At the cost of being taxed, not having legs and not being found off coco it would answer much more. Scooze is great in this meta. It turns snapcasters and goyfs into chump blockers and mitigates knights of the reliquary. I wouldn't leave home without three main deck right now. Overall, I was pleased as this list is heavy on control and was able to manage boards unless the opposition drew an inordinate amount of must answer cards. More removal would be nice though.
-Objective three was to be able to present a clock while maintaining the aforementioned goals and was conditional on them. This was successful although only in a lukewarm sense of the word. I was able to apply pressure against these fair midrange decks but it wasn't strong pressure. One of the reasons this may be is that I held up coco as an answer rather than a way to generate pressure on board. It was correct in that it worked as an answer each time but perhaps not. Exalted triggers were not quite as good as expected here. I was satisfied with them although not overwhelmingly so. I think one of the downfalls of this deck is that it must go wide to apply control and pressure. This is when it's most vulnerable to sweepers like anger and verdict and least able to answer them. I also think the manabase could do with more manlands but wildwoods etb tapped.
I would have loved to play brimaz, eternal witness, serra avenger and eldrazi displacer in this deck but didn't have the slots open. The flex spots as of right now are pridemage, arbiters, restos and spellstutter sprites. In the case of displacer, I don't think the manabase would be able to take advantage of it either.
Hope you've enjoyed the read and please leave any feedback.
Also nice stream Spiderspace, thx. Cool to see the decks in action. I have not yet watched all of it but still already have an input on your GW list:
I think that maye Spellskite should be in the main instead of Selfless Spirit. Your deck can be pretty grindy with Displacer, Witness and the higher curve so it's a bit more midrange than tempo oriented. Which makes the damage on Selfless Spirit less important and the early blocker and the "protect TKS/Smasher from path and Displacer from bolt" ability in Spellskite more important.
@dsmonsta: I've been playing uw in the last few weeks and therefore have some inputs on your list. Spellqueller is fantastic IMO and I like having four. But it is a card that needs the proper surroundings (personally I have not completly found it yet in UW). Much more than other cards do. I think the flash plan is good. The more flash cards you have the better they get as you can leave your mana open and respond with the right answer. Therefore I really liked Resto in uw. Also Clique could be something to consider. Maybe Skaab Ruinator could be good in a CoCo deck as we now have Vial, CoCo and the possibility to hardcast.
Tamiyo, Field Researcher looks pretty powerful too. Could be a Sb option.
Besides that I'm not sure on going three colors with fetches and without/less arbiter. This would go into the Maverick / Knightfall direction. If you play bant without arbiters but with fetches Knotr gets really good but then you are almost playing Knightfall.
Personally, I don't happen to like your list because I don't think you have a win condition. I prefer proactive (tempo) D&T to reactive (control) D&T. In this list, you will have to wait for your opponent to play specific spells, before you opt to counter them. Sure, it will occasionally play like a tempo deck (you drop a threat and then protect it), but this list will play much better with an Aether Vial than without.
My guess is that you're going to have significant weaknesses to burn and a rough Jund/Abzan matchup, but that you will absolutely wreck control.
I'm still not sure how you're getting away with 4 copies of Horizon Canopy, but I suspect that it has something to do with the 3 maindeck Scavenging Ooze.
Ultimately, the question here shouldn't be "is Bant playable?" because the answer to that is simply "yes, it is." The question should be "is adding the 3rd color worth the cost of destabilizing the D&T manabase?" and the answer to that is still up in the air.
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Heat Maps
That's what I mean. If you play Bant with fetches and a more fragile mana base / less utility lands and leave Arbiter behind anyway then I think you are getting closer to a Knightfall list and are less a DnT deck. I don't actually know if the third color is worth it then or if you shouldn't just do the next step an play Knightfall.
I have played up to four fethces in my esper list with arbiter, and from my testing fetches seem like they are good but they can really mess with your manabase numbers. They get to count for each color you need, but at the same time they cut into the number of actual colored mana producing lands you have. The occasional awkward hand with arbiter does come up, and they can force you to sequence against your will. Imo, especially with arbiter, 5 is too many. If you pick green as your splash I think I would want to cut them down to maybe 2. You might, however, be able to run more if blue is your splash color.
Also I think cutting arbiters is a mistake if you play green because green allows you to have more consistent mana denial by upping your plan a turn and progressing your board farther in comparison to your opponent faster.