Every time I brought in Baneslayer Angel, I was able to cast her t5.
Public Service Announcement: I just want to remind everybody that this result is statistically unlikely, especially at the end of a long tournament. Your mileage may vary. Do not run 21 lands and expect to consistently hit land drops on each of your first 5 turns.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
@charonsobol, I've done that with 4 hierarchs and four oaths. I run 23 lands with four hierarchs now. 21 lands is just too few. The topdeck difference is negligible but the lost tempo from casting oath is significant.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
I don't understand why people would play Oath of Nissa in a deck that plays Thalia, Guardian of Thraben as a 3x/4x and doesn't run any planeswalkers (when it does is not more than 1/2 anyway). What's the value of playing that over more removal or more creatures or even Thoughtseize on B splash?
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
@charonsobol, I've done that with 4 hierarchs and four oaths. I run 23 lands with four hierarchs now. 21 lands is just too few. The topdeck difference is negligible but the lost tempo from casting oath is significant.
Disagree strongly.
In the last several months, I've been playing WG and Bant D&T almost exclusively. My last WG list ran 21 lands with 3 Hierarchs and 2 Oath of Nissa, and that felt pretty good. In my experience, the lost tempo from Oath is negligible. If you have a better T1 play (like a vial or Hierarch), you make that instead, and eventually you Ponder for a creature or land when you have nothing better to do.
I ran 23 lands with 4 Hierarchs in a Bant D&T list a few days ago, and the flooding was horrible. I had a surplus of mana and nothing to spend it on. I promptly cut two lands and will continue testing later this week.
But all of my experience with WG suggests that 23 lands is way too many, unless your build is filled with midrange cards like Stirring Wildwood or Gavony Township. If your curve tops out at 4, and you only have 1-4 copies of that 4-drop, I would highly recommend sticking to 21 lands with 4-5 Hierarchs/Oaths for WG D&T.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I don't understand why people would play Oath of Nissa in a deck that plays Thalia, Guardian of Thraben as a 3x/4x and doesn't run any planeswalkers (when it does is not more than 1/2 anyway). What's the value of playing that over more removal or more creatures or even Thoughtseize on B splash?
It's good for the same reason that Ponder is good in blue decks. You look at your top 3 cards, and then pick the one that you want. In essence, it's a variance reducer.
For a more concrete answer, it fixes your mana on T1. It digs for a creature on T10. And it means that every Flickerwisp that you play can replace itself if you want it to.
I've even had people Abrupt Decay Oath of Nissa to prevent me from getting incremental value out of it all game. (And none of those lines even mention Kor Skyfisher, which was popular for a little while.)
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I don't understand why people would play Oath of Nissa in a deck that plays Thalia, Guardian of Thraben as a 3x/4x and doesn't run any planeswalkers (when it does is not more than 1/2 anyway). What's the value of playing that over more removal or more creatures or even Thoughtseize on B splash?
It's good for the same reason that Ponder is good in blue decks. You look at your top 3 cards, and then pick the one that you want. In essence, it's a variance reducer.
For a more concrete answer, it fixes your mana on T1. It digs for a creature on T10. And it means that every Flickerwisp that you play can replace itself if you want it to.
I've even had people Abrupt Decay Oath of Nissa to prevent me from getting incremental value out of it all game. (And none of those lines even mention Kor Skyfisher, which was popular for a little while.)
I can see how it could be good in T10, but it's not better than just topdecking a creature. The same is true for early turns topdecking a land or a creature. Yes, it's true that it gives you some selection, but it's nothing otherwordly that it's needed in the deck. In the end, it makes you roll slower at the cost of somewhat removing a little variance. This deck is designed on redundance: 22/23 lands, 4/5 removal, 4 vial, 0/1 sword 27-30 creatures. I don't think the card is good enough for a D&T deck, unless you accept to go slower than other D&Ts because you need to (a reason being playing 3 colors or playing a high reward PW off main color).
I find the comparison with Ponder a little cute though (at least in this deck). Ponder is good in blue decks, because blue decks don't play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Aether Vial, they usually play removal + counterspells, or counterspells + combo pieces, while we run none of those apart from 4 random Path to Exile (which the oath can't dig for anyway). It's also good beacause it digs like no other card, it even shuffles the library if the options are not good enough!
The combo with Flickerwisp can be annoying, but it doesn't seem like the dream scenario for the wisp. It does seem like a sweet option though.
I see you're playing a 3 color D&T, so it might be OK there, but I just don't see it paying off really. In GW I'd try to maximize the T2 Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter or Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Something like that I think is more powerful in this strategy than trying to dig for value.
While I see the direction that the Oath takes on the deck, I don't like it on this shell.
I'm of the opinion that the grinding that this deck runs is not the same that other decks aim to. While other decks try to draw multiple cards or filter it to gain access to the card they need, we simply don't care and just try to make their plays slower (even impossible given they punt on lands) and hit them little by little, until the point where we can finish them off whether they deal with the mana screw/spell bottlenecking (as it takes a lot of resources in the same turn to deal with us + develop their win con). This kind of direction removes the amount of instant free wins we have (a little % but still good) by destrying their manabase on T2/3 and don't allow them to recover from there.
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
First off, 23 lands is the standard land count for a reason. We run 23 lands so we can reliably cast our creatures while also taking advantage of our lands being able to do things like LD or swing in for damage.
For GW, your standard list run 22 lands because they have hierarchic while still having a similar curve. I wouldn't recommend going to 21 or less in any splash unless you were in GW with a VERY low curve which isn't really going to happen since our decks like to curve out at 3 for vial. I'm not sure how much oath of nissa changes that. But Oath is actually not bad. It gives you CA and also gives us more 1 drops and ways to filter lands and pick better creatures. It's a WAY better top deck late game and is good early game. Even if we occasionally have to pay 2 for it, I doubt it's going to matter because if we're not doing something else, we're probably already ahead. Additionally, it's flickerable for extra CA.
I don't think it's bad in all lists, but it's definitely not bad.
I can see how it could be good in T10, but it's not better than just topdecking a creature. The same is true for early turns topdecking a land or a creature. Yes, it's true that it gives you some selection, but it's nothing otherwordly that it's needed in the deck. In the end, it makes you roll slower at the cost of somewhat removing a little variance.
There's just no nice way to say it: you couldn't be more wrong about this.
Variance reducers win games. It's why people play fetchlands. It's why people play tutors. It's why people play cantrips and things that scry. Suggesting that a variance reducer would have been more effective as the card that you found off of the variance reducer is tautologically true, but fallacious logic. Sometimes the card that you need is several turns away.
Does it slow down my clock? Sometimes. To your point, I could have played a creature instead. But sometimes it also speeds up my clock. Digging for something like a Fiend Hunter enables tempo plays that I might not have had access to on the following turn.
This deck is designed on redundance: 22/23 lands, 4/5 removal, 4 vial, 0/1 sword 27-30 creatures. I don't think the card is good enough for a D&T deck, unless you accept to go slower than other D&Ts because you need to (a reason being playing 3 colors or playing a high reward PW off main color).
Unless you're a pure aggro deck (Burn, Affinity, Zoo, etc.), variance reduction is a big deal. There is a sweet spot with respect to variance reduction (like we'll run up to 4 fetchlands, but not more), but when it comes to creature selection, we haven't reached it. Unless I'm facing a deck like Burn, having access to card selection is worth the one mana worth of tempo. And even when I face Burn, Oath of Nissa allows me to dig for Kitchen Finks.
I find the comparison with Ponder a little cute though (at least in this deck). Ponder is good in blue decks, because blue decks don't play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Aether Vial, they usually play removal + counterspells, or counterspells + combo pieces, while we run none of those apart from 4 random Path to Exile (which the oath can't dig for anyway). It's also good beacause it digs like no other card, it even shuffles the library if the options are not good enough!
Okay, it's not actually Ponder, but it's close. The only 8 cards in our maindeck that it can't find are Path to Exile and Aether Vial. You're probably not digging for a Vial anyway, but putting a Path on the bottom of your library hurts a little bit. It's why I was running Fiend Hunter; Fiend Hunter does a good imitation of Path.
The combo with Flickerwisp can be annoying, but it doesn't seem like the dream scenario for the wisp. It does seem like a sweet option though.
You say that, but it was frequently one of my best plays, especially since Oath was hard for my opponents to remove and because I didn't need an active Vial to make it good.
I see you're playing a 3 color D&T, so it might be OK there, but I just don't see it paying off really. In GW I'd try to maximize the T2 Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter or Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Something like that I think is more powerful in this strategy than trying to dig for value.
I cut Oath when I moved to Bant and I don't regret it. I'm running more aggressive 3-drops in Bant than I did in WG, which is why I cut it. Being able to play a T2 Geist of Saint Traft is nuts.
We crunched the numbers on the T2 land destruction play a while ago and it came out to something like 4.3% (if you had four copies of each). And that was before your opponent played any interaction (discard or removal). I know that's a great line of play if and when it's available, but no matter what you do, it doesn't happen often enough to really be talked about as a dependable strategy.
Unfortunately, I'm not in the Thalia, Heretic Cathar camp. I understand why the card can be good in certain matchups, but I'm always wary of spending 3 mana on something that dies to Bolt. Maybe I'll give it another try though.
The reason for the 3/2 Hierarch/Oath split was that Hierarch was always better on T1 and Oath was always better on T10. I tried the 4/1 Hierarch/Oath split, but it just wasn't as good in the late game. If it's T10 and I'm digging for answers, being able to topdeck a Flickerwisp to be able to dig even deeper becomes a really valuable asset, especially when we're always running 4 copies of Flickerwisp.
While I see the direction that the Oath takes on the deck, I don't like it on this shell.
I'm of the opinion that the grinding that this deck runs is not the same that other decks aim to. While other decks try to draw multiple cards or filter it to gain access to the card they need, we simply don't care and just try to make their plays slower (even impossible given they punt on lands) and hit them little by little, until the point where we can finish them off whether they deal with the mana screw/spell bottlenecking (as it takes a lot of resources in the same turn to deal with us + develop their win con). This kind of direction removes the amount of instant free wins we have (a little % but still good) by destrying their manabase on T2/3 and don't allow them to recover from there.
Oath actually does a better job of enabling this kind of ridiculousness, because you're able to keep your hand with either Leonin Arbiter OR Ghost Quarter and then dig for the other piece. Again, only four percent of hands have a T2 land destruction play. If it takes any longer, variance reducers start to become valuable.
I disagree with your perception of how our deck plays, but only because we can't consistently make our opponents stumble. If you're staring at a hand with Leonin Arbiter, but you're playing against Merfolk, then that card is useless. Our taxes aren't always live. And when that happens, that's where Oath picks up the slack.
You're right that we try to win quickly by making our opponents stumble, but our mileage varies by matchup. And that's what Oath does; it reduces variance regardless of the matchup.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
This gives extremely strong topdecks (~30-33 creatures and 4 draw cards) in a grindy meta while enabling you to consistently make land drops. 13 untapped green sources mean that you have a 92% of being able to cast a first turn hierarch.
My experience with oath is that you would need to use it to dig for lands early on when running 21
This wouldn't be bad in a blue deck which doesn't depend on tempo but stinks for us. This isn't to say that oath is bad but I don't think it has a home in a low to the ground build. This is my opinion and it's worth everything you payed for it.
@Darktutot, early arbiter and land destruction is powerful for any variant and more so for GW but it's not always in the cards. I find big Thalia to be too vulnerable to bolts to be playable at the moment.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
This gives extremely strong topdecks (~30-33 creatures and 4 draw cards) in a grindy meta while enabling you to consistently make land drops. 13 untapped green sources mean that you have a 92% of being able to cast a first turn hierarch.
My experience with oath is that you would need to use it to dig for lands early on when running 21
This wouldn't be bad in a blue deck which doesn't depend on tempo but stinks for us. This isn't to say that oath is bad but I don't think it has a home in a low to the ground build. This is my opinion and it's worth everything you payed for it.
@Darktutot, early arbiter and land destruction is powerful for any variant and more so for GW but it's not always in the cards. I find big Thalia to be too vulnerable to bolts to be playable at the moment.
If you were worried about tempo with a super low to the ground build, I feel the stirring wildwood is not a great a call. Coming into play tapped is probably not great for us. Additionally, In the crazy fast meta that modern has presented us, I'm not sure how you can run 4 horizon canopy. I run 2 and there are games I'll just lose to a deck like burn because I just had to find both canopies. It's a fantastic card and helps you cycle cards if you're in a grindy game like against jund, but you're going to be taking a lot of damage from it and your 4 shock lands in your list and damage can matter in our meta filled with fast aggro decks. Is your list running 4 kitcehn finks and 0 4 drops?
However, I do think that if you're trying to build a very aggressive and fast version of the deck, oath of nissa might not be what you want. It's more for a midrangey sort of list.
Bit of a change from the GW/Oath discussion - good one BTW, great points CharonsObol.
Did anyone witness how sweet Eternal Scourge was in the Skred Red deck that one the GP? It was a ridiculous engine against a control deck he played, what a resilient little 3/3. I'm playing BW Eldrazi and Taxes (without Arbiter) trying to get the most out of the formats only Ancient Tomb in colours that do not normally get acceleration. I'm playing 2 MD Relic because it seems good enough most of the time against the wide MTGO meta plus it activates Wasteland Strangler as early as possible. I'm going to try playing 3 MD Relics and 3 Eternal Scourge (2 MD/1SB) with a Sword of Fire and Ice in the main to see if it's any good.
Why bother? I wonder if Eternal Scourge can help fight the Jund and control battles by making their removal less valuable. Especially when I'm playing the Eternal Scourge on the cheap from an Eldrazi Temple. I'm also considering swapping the Sword out for something like Basilisk Collar or Elspeth, Knight Errant. He's got less than impressive stats, as do most of our dudes, but his recursion makes me feel a little more comfortable investing in equipment/planeswalkers - I feel the like pay-off is more likely.
Eternal Scourge in an E&T shell is intriguing. It's effectively a beefy 2-drop when combined with Eldrazi Temple, and it could be a haymaker against Jund. Question is, how many Relic of Progenitus would you want to run alongside it? And what do those changes mean for the deck overall?
I had a similar idea and have already posted it in the "B/W Eldrazi Processors" thread but if it was brought up here I guess I'll repost it.
It is a basically a "taxless" "B/W Eldrazi" deck that capitalizes on processing effects:
I tested mono white with spirit of the labyrinth and geier reach sanitarium. It wasn't anything near competitive, but whenever I got the combo assembled in the mid/late game it was a strong soft lock.
We all know, SOTL isn't as good in modern as it is in legacy, but the combination of him and the land always works. And I want to test how far you can push the deck towards this direction.
So, SOTL hits Infect's Probe, Grixis/Jeskai Serum Visions, Nahiri (while also being succeptible to her), Ancestral Visions, Tron's Eggs. Basically not enough to qualify for MD spots.
It affects TKS downside. Not on our turn, when the opponent will most likely destroy it. BUT: You can use TKS as another Geier Reach for the lock effect. Blink TKS with Displacer in their draw step and rip their cards for a lock.
I see it complementing the land in two ways:
Making it more "redundant" (the land is legendary after all, so you wouldn't want to play more than 2). You need a Displacer with it, but that card is easily maindeckable as 3x-4x and you don't want just for the lock.
Adding a clock. Having SOTL and the land is fine and all, but if he's your only creature and get's brickwalled by whatever creature, you're not able to advance your board easily. Locking will tap 3 of your lands every turn.
With so many mana hungry interactions (displacer wants lots of mana, too), a green splash for hieararch should be the way to go.
So my plan is to do further testings with a GW Eldrazi & Taxes build. Something like:
Question: Has anybody thoroughly tested SOTL and Geier? Especially in an eldrazi context? Do you guys want help testing or do you have any ideas on your mind? Things I might have missed?
It probably won't work as great as I hope, you gotta try something new every now and then right?
I tested SotL in BW eldrazi a bit replacing arbiter with it. The deck performed well, but there were some matchups where I really missed the arbiter. I actually think spirit works best in a BW variant because you can get your opponent's hand down on cards easier, although the point you make about having so many mana sinks is valid. Also you need to be careful with blinking thought-knot seer that way because unlike with geier if the card they draw is an instant they can play it before thought-knot's trigger resolves especially if it is removal.
I just had a thought though. It might be worth running a crucible in the list so we get more benefit out of discarding cards. One of the main problems with the lock like you said is the fact that it can take all your mana so it can be nigh useless when you are behind on board. Crucible would allow you to freely discard your lands to geier and still build up a superior board while the lock is in place. It also gives synergy with ghost quarter to start locking them out on a mana front too.
How do you fight grixis control with E&T? Today I lost 3 games against it on cockatrice because it has SO MUCH removal. Everytime I took a card from his hand with sculler/seer, he has like: 2 terminate, 1 bolt, 1 snapcaster, 1 kolaghan, 1 tasigur... and with SB it had a lot of mass removal.
I've also struggled removing their Kalitas, Tasigurs and Gurmag Anglers. Wasteland Strangler doesn't cut it here. Fiend Hunter seems decent. I've been running 3x Spellskite MD and that has helped a lot, though I find it difficult as well.
DnT! I'm a power-load
DnT! Watch me Explode
WUDeath&TaxesWG
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UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
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WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
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WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
In the last several months, I've been playing WG and Bant D&T almost exclusively. My last WG list ran 21 lands with 3 Hierarchs and 2 Oath of Nissa, and that felt pretty good. In my experience, the lost tempo from Oath is negligible. If you have a better T1 play (like a vial or Hierarch), you make that instead, and eventually you Ponder for a creature or land when you have nothing better to do.
I ran 23 lands with 4 Hierarchs in a Bant D&T list a few days ago, and the flooding was horrible. I had a surplus of mana and nothing to spend it on. I promptly cut two lands and will continue testing later this week.
But all of my experience with WG suggests that 23 lands is way too many, unless your build is filled with midrange cards like Stirring Wildwood or Gavony Township. If your curve tops out at 4, and you only have 1-4 copies of that 4-drop, I would highly recommend sticking to 21 lands with 4-5 Hierarchs/Oaths for WG D&T.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
For a more concrete answer, it fixes your mana on T1. It digs for a creature on T10. And it means that every Flickerwisp that you play can replace itself if you want it to.
I've even had people Abrupt Decay Oath of Nissa to prevent me from getting incremental value out of it all game. (And none of those lines even mention Kor Skyfisher, which was popular for a little while.)
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I can see how it could be good in T10, but it's not better than just topdecking a creature. The same is true for early turns topdecking a land or a creature. Yes, it's true that it gives you some selection, but it's nothing otherwordly that it's needed in the deck. In the end, it makes you roll slower at the cost of somewhat removing a little variance. This deck is designed on redundance: 22/23 lands, 4/5 removal, 4 vial, 0/1 sword 27-30 creatures. I don't think the card is good enough for a D&T deck, unless you accept to go slower than other D&Ts because you need to (a reason being playing 3 colors or playing a high reward PW off main color).
I find the comparison with Ponder a little cute though (at least in this deck). Ponder is good in blue decks, because blue decks don't play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Aether Vial, they usually play removal + counterspells, or counterspells + combo pieces, while we run none of those apart from 4 random Path to Exile (which the oath can't dig for anyway). It's also good beacause it digs like no other card, it even shuffles the library if the options are not good enough!
The combo with Flickerwisp can be annoying, but it doesn't seem like the dream scenario for the wisp. It does seem like a sweet option though.
I see you're playing a 3 color D&T, so it might be OK there, but I just don't see it paying off really. In GW I'd try to maximize the T2 Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter or Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Something like that I think is more powerful in this strategy than trying to dig for value.
While I see the direction that the Oath takes on the deck, I don't like it on this shell.
I'm of the opinion that the grinding that this deck runs is not the same that other decks aim to. While other decks try to draw multiple cards or filter it to gain access to the card they need, we simply don't care and just try to make their plays slower (even impossible given they punt on lands) and hit them little by little, until the point where we can finish them off whether they deal with the mana screw/spell bottlenecking (as it takes a lot of resources in the same turn to deal with us + develop their win con). This kind of direction removes the amount of instant free wins we have (a little % but still good) by destrying their manabase on T2/3 and don't allow them to recover from there.
For GW, your standard list run 22 lands because they have hierarchic while still having a similar curve. I wouldn't recommend going to 21 or less in any splash unless you were in GW with a VERY low curve which isn't really going to happen since our decks like to curve out at 3 for vial. I'm not sure how much oath of nissa changes that. But Oath is actually not bad. It gives you CA and also gives us more 1 drops and ways to filter lands and pick better creatures. It's a WAY better top deck late game and is good early game. Even if we occasionally have to pay 2 for it, I doubt it's going to matter because if we're not doing something else, we're probably already ahead. Additionally, it's flickerable for extra CA.
I don't think it's bad in all lists, but it's definitely not bad.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Variance reducers win games. It's why people play fetchlands. It's why people play tutors. It's why people play cantrips and things that scry. Suggesting that a variance reducer would have been more effective as the card that you found off of the variance reducer is tautologically true, but fallacious logic. Sometimes the card that you need is several turns away.
Does it slow down my clock? Sometimes. To your point, I could have played a creature instead. But sometimes it also speeds up my clock. Digging for something like a Fiend Hunter enables tempo plays that I might not have had access to on the following turn.
Unless you're a pure aggro deck (Burn, Affinity, Zoo, etc.), variance reduction is a big deal. There is a sweet spot with respect to variance reduction (like we'll run up to 4 fetchlands, but not more), but when it comes to creature selection, we haven't reached it. Unless I'm facing a deck like Burn, having access to card selection is worth the one mana worth of tempo. And even when I face Burn, Oath of Nissa allows me to dig for Kitchen Finks.
Okay, it's not actually Ponder, but it's close. The only 8 cards in our maindeck that it can't find are Path to Exile and Aether Vial. You're probably not digging for a Vial anyway, but putting a Path on the bottom of your library hurts a little bit. It's why I was running Fiend Hunter; Fiend Hunter does a good imitation of Path.
You say that, but it was frequently one of my best plays, especially since Oath was hard for my opponents to remove and because I didn't need an active Vial to make it good.
I cut Oath when I moved to Bant and I don't regret it. I'm running more aggressive 3-drops in Bant than I did in WG, which is why I cut it. Being able to play a T2 Geist of Saint Traft is nuts.
We crunched the numbers on the T2 land destruction play a while ago and it came out to something like 4.3% (if you had four copies of each). And that was before your opponent played any interaction (discard or removal). I know that's a great line of play if and when it's available, but no matter what you do, it doesn't happen often enough to really be talked about as a dependable strategy.
Unfortunately, I'm not in the Thalia, Heretic Cathar camp. I understand why the card can be good in certain matchups, but I'm always wary of spending 3 mana on something that dies to Bolt. Maybe I'll give it another try though.
The reason for the 3/2 Hierarch/Oath split was that Hierarch was always better on T1 and Oath was always better on T10. I tried the 4/1 Hierarch/Oath split, but it just wasn't as good in the late game. If it's T10 and I'm digging for answers, being able to topdeck a Flickerwisp to be able to dig even deeper becomes a really valuable asset, especially when we're always running 4 copies of Flickerwisp.
Oath actually does a better job of enabling this kind of ridiculousness, because you're able to keep your hand with either Leonin Arbiter OR Ghost Quarter and then dig for the other piece. Again, only four percent of hands have a T2 land destruction play. If it takes any longer, variance reducers start to become valuable.
I disagree with your perception of how our deck plays, but only because we can't consistently make our opponents stumble. If you're staring at a hand with Leonin Arbiter, but you're playing against Merfolk, then that card is useless. Our taxes aren't always live. And when that happens, that's where Oath picks up the slack.
You're right that we try to win quickly by making our opponents stumble, but our mileage varies by matchup. And that's what Oath does; it reduces variance regardless of the matchup.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
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WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
This gives extremely strong topdecks (~30-33 creatures and 4 draw cards) in a grindy meta while enabling you to consistently make land drops. 13 untapped green sources mean that you have a 92% of being able to cast a first turn hierarch.
My experience with oath is that you would need to use it to dig for lands early on when running 21
This wouldn't be bad in a blue deck which doesn't depend on tempo but stinks for us. This isn't to say that oath is bad but I don't think it has a home in a low to the ground build. This is my opinion and it's worth everything you payed for it.
@Darktutot, early arbiter and land destruction is powerful for any variant and more so for GW but it's not always in the cards. I find big Thalia to be too vulnerable to bolts to be playable at the moment.
If you were worried about tempo with a super low to the ground build, I feel the stirring wildwood is not a great a call. Coming into play tapped is probably not great for us. Additionally, In the crazy fast meta that modern has presented us, I'm not sure how you can run 4 horizon canopy. I run 2 and there are games I'll just lose to a deck like burn because I just had to find both canopies. It's a fantastic card and helps you cycle cards if you're in a grindy game like against jund, but you're going to be taking a lot of damage from it and your 4 shock lands in your list and damage can matter in our meta filled with fast aggro decks. Is your list running 4 kitcehn finks and 0 4 drops?
However, I do think that if you're trying to build a very aggressive and fast version of the deck, oath of nissa might not be what you want. It's more for a midrangey sort of list.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Did anyone witness how sweet Eternal Scourge was in the Skred Red deck that one the GP? It was a ridiculous engine against a control deck he played, what a resilient little 3/3. I'm playing BW Eldrazi and Taxes (without Arbiter) trying to get the most out of the formats only Ancient Tomb in colours that do not normally get acceleration. I'm playing 2 MD Relic because it seems good enough most of the time against the wide MTGO meta plus it activates Wasteland Strangler as early as possible. I'm going to try playing 3 MD Relics and 3 Eternal Scourge (2 MD/1SB) with a Sword of Fire and Ice in the main to see if it's any good.
Why bother? I wonder if Eternal Scourge can help fight the Jund and control battles by making their removal less valuable. Especially when I'm playing the Eternal Scourge on the cheap from an Eldrazi Temple. I'm also considering swapping the Sword out for something like Basilisk Collar or Elspeth, Knight Errant. He's got less than impressive stats, as do most of our dudes, but his recursion makes me feel a little more comfortable investing in equipment/planeswalkers - I feel the like pay-off is more likely.
Has this already been tried in a DnT shell?
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
It is a basically a "taxless" "B/W Eldrazi" deck that capitalizes on processing effects:
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Eternal Scourge
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Wasteland Strangler
2x Matter Reshaper
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Reality Smasher
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
Artifact (4)
4x Relic of Progenitus
3x Declaration in Stone
Land (23)
4x Marsh Flats
3x Godless Shrine
4x Caves of Koilos
3x Shambling Vent
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Anguished Unmaking
2x Lost Legacy
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Zealous Persecution
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I tested SotL in BW eldrazi a bit replacing arbiter with it. The deck performed well, but there were some matchups where I really missed the arbiter. I actually think spirit works best in a BW variant because you can get your opponent's hand down on cards easier, although the point you make about having so many mana sinks is valid. Also you need to be careful with blinking thought-knot seer that way because unlike with geier if the card they draw is an instant they can play it before thought-knot's trigger resolves especially if it is removal.
I just had a thought though. It might be worth running a crucible in the list so we get more benefit out of discarding cards. One of the main problems with the lock like you said is the fact that it can take all your mana so it can be nigh useless when you are behind on board. Crucible would allow you to freely discard your lands to geier and still build up a superior board while the lock is in place. It also gives synergy with ghost quarter to start locking them out on a mana front too.
I've also struggled removing their Kalitas, Tasigurs and Gurmag Anglers. Wasteland Strangler doesn't cut it here. Fiend Hunter seems decent. I've been running 3x Spellskite MD and that has helped a lot, though I find it difficult as well.
Edit: Dark Betrayal...tech