@Agua, I think augury owl is better than either. It's a two drop that can attack almost unimpeded in the current meta and opponents won't spend removal on until after it has put more than it's share of work in. It also shines with displacer.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
There's so many variants... I swear, soon we're going to have U/W Eldrazi taxes, and soon Esper Eldrazi Taxes, which I think might be really interesting, but the land base seems too tough to do.
To be honest, that's not really a relevant question given D&T's meta share. The mirror is still too rare. But in the spirit of answering it, I think E&T preys on the others until otherwise noted - it's the variant that's best suited to deal with creatures, against decks chock-full of them.
Just FYI guys. Have played several daily tournamments w/o Leonins. Swapped them for couple of swords and additional beaters. 3-1 all of that tournaments. Can't say thta the deck became worse than it was.
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DnT! And I'll win the fight
DnT! I'm a power-load
DnT! Watch me Explode
My experience (which is admittedly about a different variant of the deck) is that this doesn't want 4 mana planeswalkers. They're a win more card that is difficult to cast much of the time and won't save us when we're behind.
The possible exception is Gideon, ally of zendikar in grindy attrition games as he can make bodies and also give permanent anthem effects.
Original elspeth is also good, its agressive and helps to finish games (a 5/4 flying thalia with first strike is a serious threat )
To be honest, that's not really a relevant question given D&T's meta share. The mirror is still too rare. But in the spirit of answering it, I think E&T preys on the others until otherwise noted - it's the variant that's best suited to deal with creatures, against decks chock-full of them.
On the other hand, E&T's manabase is the weakest by far. Something all D&T decks prey on.
In Theory DnT shoudl be ina good moment now with the rize of bant eldrazi and its delicate mana base, but for some reason I never get paired to anythign but jund
having done some playtesting with SFM in modern I can tell you it's anything but oppressive even with batterskull. Jitte is what is oppressive. If you want to argue it might homogenize white midrange/control decks for a while that's a different discusion but i belive from what i've seen people will realize she is not for every deck and that will shake itself out. Though this diiscussion isn't for this thread i believe.
I've continued to test nahiri and taxes and i believe the deck needs a little more aggression to supplement the broken draws. What aggressive 1 and 2 drops have people had success with. My gut is telling me to start with dryad militant but i'm not positive
I used student of warfare for a while, sometimes it works wonderfully (specially in mono white lists) sometimes it just eat a bolt in the face.
To be honest, that's not really a relevant question given D&T's meta share. The mirror is still too rare. But in the spirit of answering it, I think E&T preys on the others until otherwise noted - it's the variant that's best suited to deal with creatures, against decks chock-full of them.
On the other hand, E&T's manabase is the weakest by far. Something all D&T decks prey on.
On the one hand, this point is valid. On the other hand, Aether Vial negates a lot of the work you do on that front. If E&T lands a Vial, they probably just beat every other Taxes variant.
jumping on to do a little testing. no lab today so i'm pretty much free. will be testing for a few hours. as always right click my name in cockatrice to spectate. i also test my other decks, but just message and i will switch the following match.
There's so many variants... I swear, soon we're going to have U/W Eldrazi taxes, and soon Esper Eldrazi Taxes, which I think might be really interesting, but the land base seems too tough to do.
That said, which variant preys on which variant?
Blade splicer beats finks,
Wasteland strangler beats blade splicer,
Finks is even with strangler,
Most of the time it comes down to your 3 drops, and if you get lucky off an opponents arbiters with your ghost quarters/paths when you have a vial or more creatures in play than them.
@mrPandarian Arbiter is most of the time a problem your opponents must answer. It's just like a Cursecather in merfolks. You don't really know how good is because you're not in the other side. Eating a bolt is sometimes really important to your other threats and taxers
I think the biggest problem is not using the Eldrazi to it's fullest potential. But I do enjoy flashing in Reflector's mage, then bouncing TKS or Clique to get rid of a creature. And Turn 1 Familiar to Turn 2 Arbiter/Thalia for protection is pretty nice too. Or would it be better to use Spell Queller + Ethersworn Canonist to effectively remove a spell permanently if they cast something else.
I think the biggest problem is not using the Eldrazi to it's fullest potential. But I do enjoy flashing in Reflector's mage, then bouncing TKS or Clique to get rid of a creature. And Turn 1 Familiar to Turn 2 Arbiter/Thalia for protection is pretty nice too. Or would it be better to use Spell Queller + Ethersworn Canonist to effectively remove a spell permanently if they cast something else.
I messed around with WU E&T a while back. Essentially you have to decide if you want to try to make your list more control oriented or more tempo oriented for playing WU D&T. When I did it, I was trying to abuse mangara of corondor with displacer (a control list). I'd say you're running a more tempo version and for that I'd really recommend spell queller. You don't need canonist to make that card good. Remember that thalia will tax their noncreature spell even if queller leaves the battlefield and that you can abuse flickering it like that as well as flicker it when it comes in to permanently exile the card via either vial wisp or displacer. You probably don't need 3 vendillions. 2 should do the trick. Especially with your 4 thoughtknots. If you can fit another moorland haunt, I'd do so. It's a very good card.
EDIT: While I haven't tried it, you could run a couple more eldrazi like bant eldrazi do and try eldrazi skyspawner and use that to help justify running a couple more large eldrazi, but that version is pretty much just bant eldrazi without the mana acceleration from hierarch and the addition of some hatebears.
With the new fastlands coming out I'd like to highlight the power and possibilities of microsplashes. This is a fantastic tool an older player did in a formpast. If this isn't in leonin's library, it ought to be. It focuses on the W(g) microsplash, but I've tried such a thing for W(u) for moorland haunt and Ephara, God of the Polis. I imagine you could try it with other cards as well as in other color variants. We have so many options just around the corner guys. This is a very exciting time to be playing D&T and I can't wait to see all the new brews.
Even if you don't want to microsplash, this will give you an idea of how powerful fastlands are and how to build a better manabase.
That said, since I plan on trying WB soon, what of Athreos, God of Passage? They can't kill any of our threats (exile aside) unless they want to effectively take a bolt to the face-- and it gives us a pseudo-card-advantage in that we can just drop the card right back on the board next turn or Vial it in. And in plenty of situations, he'd be an indestructible 5/4 beater for 3 mana-- right on curve.
(Can Ephara/Athreos be Vialed in if they would not yet be considered creatures due to devotion shortage? Being able to Vial in an enchantment would be super cool.)
EDIT: (Oh. "The type-changing ability that can make the God not be a creature functions only on the battlefield. It’s always a creature card in other zones, regardless of your devotion to its color."
Mind explaining in more detail? I don't understand what you mean.
Browbeat effects allow the opponent to choose between a few options (typically two choices). Typically each choice is slightly pushed, making it appear appealing on the surface, but you must always consider that your opponent will choose whatever is best for them at the time, limiting the power of the effect. Atheros will rarely give you the creature back when you need it, and will rarely deal damage when your looking to close out the game. I don't feel that it is correct to call it a Browbeat card simply because it is a repeatable effect that can grind out advantage instead of offering a onetime effect, but agree that allow your opponent to choose their best case scenario hampers the card.
I see. It just seemed like a win-win overall, since both effects, while the opponent gets to choose, are beneficial to me and detrimental to them-- kind of like Kambal, Consul of Allocation-- except there's no choice there, it's just purely beneficial to us. I kind of figured that playing both Atheros and Kambal fit the theme of taxes-- only instead of having to pay mana, they have to pay life or face other consequences.
RE: BW EnT vs. GW DnT
I think the use of Restoration Angel as a 4-of in the GW list is a huge boon for GW. It is really hard for BW to deal with and it gives you 8 blinkers. I also find that Wasteland Strangler putting creatures from exile back into the graveyard is really strong for later game Scavenging Ooze, giving them so much repeat fodder. They create an interesting dynamic. It really is about knowing how to line up your advantages versus theirs.
In the current meta, I like GW better because it has main deck graveyard hate and stacks up better against Jund.
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Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
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That said, which variant preys on which variant?
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
DnT! I'm a power-load
DnT! Watch me Explode
Original elspeth is also good, its agressive and helps to finish games (a 5/4 flying thalia with first strike is a serious threat )
In Theory DnT shoudl be ina good moment now with the rize of bant eldrazi and its delicate mana base, but for some reason I never get paired to anythign but jund
I used student of warfare for a while, sometimes it works wonderfully (specially in mono white lists) sometimes it just eat a bolt in the face.
On the one hand, this point is valid. On the other hand, Aether Vial negates a lot of the work you do on that front. If E&T lands a Vial, they probably just beat every other Taxes variant.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Blade splicer beats finks,
Wasteland strangler beats blade splicer,
Finks is even with strangler,
Most of the time it comes down to your 3 drops, and if you get lucky off an opponents arbiters with your ghost quarters/paths when you have a vial or more creatures in play than them.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
1 Island
1 Moorland Haunt
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reflector Mage
4 Judge's Familiar
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Aether Vial
I think the biggest problem is not using the Eldrazi to it's fullest potential. But I do enjoy flashing in Reflector's mage, then bouncing TKS or Clique to get rid of a creature. And Turn 1 Familiar to Turn 2 Arbiter/Thalia for protection is pretty nice too. Or would it be better to use Spell Queller + Ethersworn Canonist to effectively remove a spell permanently if they cast something else.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
I messed around with WU E&T a while back. Essentially you have to decide if you want to try to make your list more control oriented or more tempo oriented for playing WU D&T. When I did it, I was trying to abuse mangara of corondor with displacer (a control list). I'd say you're running a more tempo version and for that I'd really recommend spell queller. You don't need canonist to make that card good. Remember that thalia will tax their noncreature spell even if queller leaves the battlefield and that you can abuse flickering it like that as well as flicker it when it comes in to permanently exile the card via either vial wisp or displacer. You probably don't need 3 vendillions. 2 should do the trick. Especially with your 4 thoughtknots. If you can fit another moorland haunt, I'd do so. It's a very good card.
EDIT: While I haven't tried it, you could run a couple more eldrazi like bant eldrazi do and try eldrazi skyspawner and use that to help justify running a couple more large eldrazi, but that version is pretty much just bant eldrazi without the mana acceleration from hierarch and the addition of some hatebears.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Even if you don't want to microsplash, this will give you an idea of how powerful fastlands are and how to build a better manabase.
I urge you all to read this:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/modern-archives-established/553120-w-x-death-taxes?page=267#c5362
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
That said, since I plan on trying WB soon, what of Athreos, God of Passage? They can't kill any of our threats (exile aside) unless they want to effectively take a bolt to the face-- and it gives us a pseudo-card-advantage in that we can just drop the card right back on the board next turn or Vial it in. And in plenty of situations, he'd be an indestructible 5/4 beater for 3 mana-- right on curve.
(Can Ephara/Athreos be Vialed in if they would not yet be considered creatures due to devotion shortage? Being able to Vial in an enchantment would be super cool.)
EDIT: (Oh. "The type-changing ability that can make the God not be a creature functions only on the battlefield. It’s always a creature card in other zones, regardless of your devotion to its color."
Well then.)
WB Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim | WBR Queen Marchesa | WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
Modern:
/ Death and Taxes | W/ Soul Sisters | Spirits | U Faeries | Tempered Steel Affinity
WB Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim | WBR Queen Marchesa | WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
Modern:
/ Death and Taxes | W/ Soul Sisters | Spirits | U Faeries | Tempered Steel Affinity
Browbeat effects allow the opponent to choose between a few options (typically two choices). Typically each choice is slightly pushed, making it appear appealing on the surface, but you must always consider that your opponent will choose whatever is best for them at the time, limiting the power of the effect. Atheros will rarely give you the creature back when you need it, and will rarely deal damage when your looking to close out the game. I don't feel that it is correct to call it a Browbeat card simply because it is a repeatable effect that can grind out advantage instead of offering a onetime effect, but agree that allow your opponent to choose their best case scenario hampers the card.
WB Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim | WBR Queen Marchesa | WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
Modern:
/ Death and Taxes | W/ Soul Sisters | Spirits | U Faeries | Tempered Steel Affinity
I think the use of Restoration Angel as a 4-of in the GW list is a huge boon for GW. It is really hard for BW to deal with and it gives you 8 blinkers. I also find that Wasteland Strangler putting creatures from exile back into the graveyard is really strong for later game Scavenging Ooze, giving them so much repeat fodder. They create an interesting dynamic. It really is about knowing how to line up your advantages versus theirs.
In the current meta, I like GW better because it has main deck graveyard hate and stacks up better against Jund.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.