Just to let give some input into the whole "nobo with Thalia.01", if thalia is still alive at turn 4 then theres two things happening, you are ahead and playing nahiri is only good for filtering a card, or two, you didn't block something to make sure you can get nahiri down in time, Thalia is great even in a deck with 4 lingering souls, rarely is thalia alive long enough to disrupt the mana, then if she is I'm almost always winning the game anyways.
I'm one of the same opinion about TGT's taxes your own spells. I did test her with Collected Company and it was insane. But my point about using nahiri with taxes is that, Nahiri is a very good card of herself, but she doesn't seem to help your main game plan. I don't think that Nahiri'mrakul is bad at all, but I guess that Kiki-Resto may work better. I'd love to know if Nahiri'mrakul works with someone.
How many colorless lands are we allowed to play in non-eldrazi dualcolor decks? I used to run the 4GQ/2TecE package plus 1 Vault (23 lands in total). But with Concealed Courtyard coming up, can I get away with a third (or fourth) tec edge?
If I'm not wrong, you should replace shambling vents or cave of koilos. I like manlands, but you have to live with the ETB tapped matter to use them. But koilos is perfectly replaced by Concealed Courtyard in non eldrazi decks
I'm one of the same opinion about TGT's taxes your own spells. I did test her with Collected Company and it was insane. But my point about using nahiri with taxes is that, Nahiri is a very good card of herself, but she doesn't seem to help your main game plan. I don't think that Nahiri'mrakul is bad at all, but I guess that Kiki-Resto may work better. I'd love to know if Nahiri'mrakul works with someone.
The biggest difference for me is that I don't like the idea of a 5 drop with a triple colored mana cost in my non-primary color. I do see where you're coming from withe the kiki-resto combo but i decided to try nahiri-emrakul because of nahiri's other utility and i'm honestly afraid of a RRR 5 drop in a more white than red deck.
As for the "inherent bias [in] the deck distribution derived from the fact that you shuffle in patterns", this is the textbook definition of insufficient randomization. To be clear, judges are typically only going to call you on this if you are aiming to get an unfair advantage by not randomizing your deck. But if your shuffling is so bad to cause an observed error of a relatively rare event to jump by 5%, then there is probably a problem..
All the ways people use to shuffle are heavily pattern biased. If you pile shuffle.. then well more obvious then that? Rifle shuffle also mostly is a split->spread-> combine classical list operation. It is not fully reversible just because you (and anyone) fail at doing a perfect split the a perfect spread then a perfect merge. But MOST of the cards are spread and merged almost perfectly. That keeps a close approximation of the perfect function that is fully reversible (and by definition is it is reversible it is absolutely not random), whjere the only deviation comes from " shufling error".
All these shuffle methods are WORSE randomness generators than the already bad computer ones. Just because the pattern of redistribution is too complex for a human to follow it does not mean it is really random. It is hard to simulate the real relevance of this aspect because it is hard to measure how perfectly one rifle shuffle is made.. the better it is made the less random it is.
Absolutely nothing in this statement constitutes evidence for the following claim:
Probably the innerent bias on the deck distribution derived from the fact that you shuffle in patterns causes more deviance than that!
You're going to have to do more work in order to show that the variance of a relatively rare event can swing +/- 5% because of ordinary, supposedly sufficient, shuffling techniques. Consider it preparation for the next time a judge watches you shuffle because you've managed to go Arbiter into double Ghost Quarter four or five times in a single tournament.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Thankk you for that. You are my etarnal senpai, my mystic, my mangara, my geist.
I laughed out very loud hahaha. He's primer in Merfolk! I don't know how he got accurate in DnT, but he's got a lot of good ideas to share and spare.
Thanks for the kind words, everyone.
My specialty may be Merfolk, but I've gotten a lot of reps both playing with and against D&T by virtue of my primary paper Magic friend (who owns all 3 variants of the deck I mentioned). Plus, the playstyles do share some similarities. D&T is leaning more heavily on the Vial and the tempo playstyle, and the W color base offers some different strengths and weaknesses than U, but the parallels are easy to draw.
I do think I may drop the Blade Splicer and Thought-Knot Seers for some combination of Skaab Ruinator or Aven Mindcensor-- or if the new Thalias aren't pulling their weight, I may drop them for other things as well. But for now, my idea is to play as disruptively as possible-- bouncing creatures and destroying lands (so 6 land removers, and I'm considering running Spreading Seas in the sideboard for further disruption), all while taxing and making sure the taxes stay in place with Selfless Spirit and Eiganjo Castle. Faerie Conclave and Moorland Haunt can provide extra bodies on the field if needed. I know that the dual lands aren't the best choices, but I don't have much to choose from since I don't have Adarkar Wastes or Hallowed Fountains-- I assume those are much more ideal for this deck?
Hey guys. I just played in a another modern league with the same list as last time. I wanted to see if I was any more comfortable sideboarding (I was) and to see if it put up results like last time. This time I went 3-2 which isn't great, but it's good enough to throw it right back in without loss or gain.
I won vs dredge 2-1, won vs elves 2-1(!), and won vs azbdan company 2-0. I lost vs dredge 0-2, and lost to eldrazi 0-2.
I hadn't put rest in peace in my board because I wanted to still use my yard and thought surgical extraction would be enough. The games with the current list were veryclose. If I can land worship, I win. Surgical is great if I can get it in the sort of mid/early part of the game so that I'm not too low and it can slow down their engine. Bounce is pretty good against them. I won a game with worship, and won another just by stalling. skaab ruinator was much bigger than any of his zombies and could block all day. jace, vryn's prodigy was pretty good if I could stay alive for a minute because path was invaluable and reusing surgical feels pretty good too. He and skaab helped me stabilize one game and I actually just won because my opponent milled himself. I might try putting a second worship in my board because I think it would help against eldrazi too.
Edlrazi sort of felt normal. I sided in phyrexian revoker which is pretty good against them, but I thought that endbringer was called endless one (oy) and it cost me the game. I'm not sure what would have happened if we went to G3 like we should have. I'm tempted by intrepid hero in the board for them, but it's just so narrow. I'll try another worship and see it how it feels. They're always a tough MU. For you RW D&T players, blood moon effects just destroy them. That's a MU I'm sure RW should have a better time of.
I'm surprised as you all might be that I beat elves and azbdan company, but again worship was an all-star and I just can't get over how good it feels to hibernation away their board (for elves). When that card comes in, it seriously is so good. I should make a video compilation of my games using it against boggles and elves (among others). I think the tempo of reflector mage and the ability of spell queller to hit almost anything they play really helps.
EDIT: I've been talking up skaab ruinator for this deck because it's very good in this shell, but for you other WU players, I probably wouldn't run more than 1. The card is great if you vial it in, but most versions of D&T can't stock the yard the way this version can. The card pairs really well with jace, vryn's prodigy because jace both makes Skaab easier to play, but also skaab can be pitched to jace at pretty much no cost. I've toyed around with Skaab in other lists, but I tend to not like it that much since it fights with moorland haunt for your GY resources. Moorland is one of THE reasons to splash U. It's a seriously powerful tool and you're probably better off just having it as a 2 of than skaab taking up a beater slot in your list without a way to fill the 'yard.
How many colorless lands are we allowed to play in non-eldrazi dualcolor decks? I used to run the 4GQ/2TecE package plus 1 Vault (23 lands in total). But with Concealed Courtyard coming up, can I get away with a third (or fourth) tec edge?
There's a great manabase mini-primer by dsmonsta that is linked in the Leonin Library of this Primer, which is a good place to start. The total land number rule says that 23 lands is the sweet spot (give or take a couple depending on the specifics of the deck: colors, dorks, strict-cmc, etc). If I were to make an addendum to that rule, it'd be that we want 7 colorless utility lands (give or take) seems to be the sweet spot in that 23.
While flooding/screw is pretty universal and keeps the total land count very close to 23x lands, deck building specifics make colorless utility lands more flexible and the number can vary more freely. In total, lists typically run 6x-8x colorless (4x of those being Ghost Quarter) but running 9x or even 10x isn't completely crazy (unlike running 25x lands which would be).
WW - Monowhite
They don't have to color-fix, but still typically hover at 7-8 colorless sources usually with the non-GQ remainder going to TecEdge, Mutavault, Blinkmoth, Sea-Gate. Going overboard can make hardcasting double whites like Crusader, etc. a bit tougher.
BWC - Black-White Eldrazi
Most lists are all in with 4xGQ and 4xEzTemple and call it a day. A smaller subset push it by adding another 1-2 colorless with TecEdge, Vault, Sea-Gate, Geier, or Wastes.
BW - Vanilla Black-White
These lists never need colorless the way Eldrazi lists do, and typically hover at 7-8 using a mix of TecEdge, Vault, Mutavault, and Sea-Gate.
GW - Green-White
These lists are typically more conservative with respect to colorless utility lands since hitting G early for Hierarch is so important especially if they run lean at 22 or less total lands. Some versions go 4xGQ 2xGavony and stop there, but adding in an additional TecEdge or two is more common. Mutavault and Sea-Gate aren't completely unheard of.
To be more specific to BW in particular, the manabase is going to be very interesting moving forward. There are probably two directions you can take a BW list: the more mono-white direction, or the more green-white direction.
If you go pseudo-green/white, you can approximate the GQ/Gavony/Tec split with GQ/Vault/Tec pretty easily and you can maybe run a lean 22 lands if you're keeping the GQ+Tec in the 6-or-less range. No black Hierarch means you get a little more leeway for more colorless lands, but you probably don't want to push it too far if most of your spells are strict XBW spells like Sculler, Pontiff, and (potentially) Kambal.
If you decide to go more pseudo-white you can up the LD ante and push 3x or 4x TecEdge but you'll want to stay at 23 lands. Alternatively, you could go with a more TecEdge/Mutavault split depending on what you want to do with your list. The only thing you probably can't do is 4xGQ 4xTE and expect to jam 4x (Vault/Mutavault/Sea-Gate) while still hardcasting consistently Scullers on curve.
As for your specific question about "can I up my TecEdge count?", that is really going to depend on what Courtyard replaces in your list. If you're replacing a different source (like Shambling Vent) then no, not really, because total color-sources would see no net change for you to "fit" TecEdge into. Color fixing would be conserved, and only pain or speed is getting traded around. You have to increase color overlap while keeping the number of color sources constant to increase the total number of colorless slots available.
Let the bracketed mana symbols represent different types of land. W = Plains B = Swamp
(C) = Ghost Quarter
[ ] = Caves of Koilos
{ } = Shambling Vent
< > = Concealed Courtyard
If we start with a small 10-land manabase example that has two each of Plains, Caves, Vents, Swamps, and GQ, then we see that there are 6 white sources, 6 black sources, and 2 colorless-only sources. WW [ ] { }BB(CC)
If we swap out a Vent for a Courtyard, then nothing really changes as far as color-fixing sources count is concerned: WW [ ] { } < > BB(CC)
The landbase still has 6W and 6B sources (4 overlapping), all that changed is a trade of early-game speed for a late-game body. However, if we now swap a basic Plains with Courtyard: W [ ] { } < > BB(CC)
then something changes and there are 6W and 7B sources (5 overlapping). If we had previously decided that we wanted 6W+6B for color fixing, then we now have an extra black source that can be swapped out for another colorless LD land, like so: W [ ] { } < > B(CCC)
Courtyard is pretty great not just because it offers a better option to Vents, etc as being an untapped BW source- but because it ups the total number of untapped BW sources to a place where we can really mess around with the manabase and design as much or little overlap as we want/need.
@Minos Engele - With 4xGQ/2xTecEdge/1xVault you should probably be able to increase the overlap to get another TecEdge pretty easily. Pushing even more overlap for 4xGQ/4xTecEdge/1xVault gets you to 9x colorless land which might start crowding your Scullers, Pontiffs, etc though. depending on what your list looks like for two-strict-mana cards.
How many colorless lands are we allowed to play in non-eldrazi dualcolor decks? I used to run the 4GQ/2TecE package plus 1 Vault (23 lands in total). But with Concealed Courtyard coming up, can I get away with a third (or fourth) tec edge?
There's a great manabase mini-primer by dsmonsta that is linked in the Leonin Library of this Primer, which is a good place to start. The total land number rule says that 23 lands is the sweet spot (give or take a couple depending on the specifics of the deck: colors, dorks, strict-cmc, etc). If I were to make an addendum to that rule, it'd be that we want 7 colorless utility lands (give or take) seems to be the sweet spot in that 23.
While flooding/screw is pretty universal and keeps the total land count very close to 23x lands, deck building specifics make colorless utility lands more flexible and the number can vary more freely. In total, lists typically run 6x-8x colorless (4x of those being Ghost Quarter) but running 9x or even 10x isn't completely crazy (unlike running 25x lands which would be).
WW - Monowhite
They don't have to color-fix, but still typically hover at 7-8 colorless sources usually with the non-GQ remainder going to TecEdge, Mutavault, Blinkmoth, Sea-Gate. Going overboard can make hardcasting double whites like Crusader, etc. a bit tougher.
BWC - Black-White Eldrazi
Most lists are all in with 4xGQ and 4xEzTemple and call it a day. A smaller subset push it by adding another 1-2 colorless with TecEdge, Vault, Sea-Gate, Geier, or Wastes.
BW - Vanilla Black-White
These lists never need colorless the way Eldrazi lists do, and typically hover at 7-8 using a mix of TecEdge, Vault, Mutavault, and Sea-Gate.
GW - Green-White
These lists are typically more conservative with respect to colorless utility lands since hitting G early for Hierarch is so important especially if they run lean at 22 or less total lands. Some versions go 4xGQ 2xGavony and stop there, but adding in an additional TecEdge or two is more common. Mutavault and Sea-Gate aren't completely unheard of.
To be more specific to BW in particular, the manabase is going to be very interesting moving forward. There are probably two directions you can take a BW list: the more mono-white direction, or the more green-white direction.
If you go pseudo-green/white, you can approximate the GQ/Gavony/Tec split with GQ/Vault/Tec pretty easily and you can maybe run a lean 22 lands if you're keeping the GQ+Tec in the 6-or-less range. No black Hierarch means you get a little more leeway for more colorless lands, but you probably don't want to push it too far if most of your spells are strict XBW spells like Sculler, Pontiff, and (potentially) Kambal.
If you decide to go more pseudo-white you can up the LD ante and push 3x or 4x TecEdge but you'll want to stay at 23 lands. Alternatively, you could go with a more TecEdge/Mutavault split depending on what you want to do with your list. The only thing you probably can't do is 4xGQ 4xTE and expect to jam 4x (Vault/Mutavault/Sea-Gate) while still hardcasting consistently Scullers on curve.
As for your specific question about "can I up my TecEdge count?", that is really going to depend on what Courtyard replaces in your list. If you're replacing a different source (like Shambling Vent) then no, not really, because total color-sources would see no net change for you to "fit" TecEdge into. Color fixing would be conserved, and only pain or speed is getting traded around. You have to increase color overlap while keeping the number of color sources constant to increase the total number of colorless slots available.
Let the bracketed mana symbols represent different types of land. W = Plains B = Swamp
(C) = Ghost Quarter
[ ] = Caves of Koilos
{ } = Shambling Vent
< > = Concealed Courtyard
If we start with a small 10-land manabase example that has two each of Plains, Caves, Vents, Swamps, and GQ, then we see that there are 6 white sources, 6 black sources, and 2 colorless-only sources. WW [ ] { }BB(CC)
If we swap out a Vent for a Courtyard, then nothing really changes as far as color-fixing sources count is concerned: WW [ ] { } < > BB(CC)
The landbase still has 6W and 6B sources (4 overlapping), all that changed is a trade of early-game speed for a late-game body. However, if we now swap a basic Plains with Courtyard: W [ ] { } < > BB(CC)
then something changes and there are 6W and 7B sources (5 overlapping). If we had previously decided that we wanted 6W+6B for color fixing, then we now have an extra black source that can be swapped out for another colorless LD land, like so: W [ ] { } < > B(CCC)
Courtyard is pretty great not just because it offers a better option to Vents, etc as being an untapped BW source- but because it ups the total number of untapped BW sources to a place where we can really mess around with the manabase and design as much or little overlap as we want/need.
@Minos Engele - With 4xGQ/2xTecEdge/1xVault you should probably be able to increase the overlap to get another TecEdge pretty easily. Pushing even more overlap for 4xGQ/4xTecEdge/1xVault gets you to 9x colorless land which might start crowding your Scullers, Pontiffs, etc though. depending on what your list looks like for two-strict-mana cards.
I'd like to add to that:
If you run a low curve, you can get away with less lands, but typically, don't go under 22 and I'd say stick with 23. GW gets to do 22 sometimes since they have hierarch, but the idea behind our deck is to use our lands (LD) while still putting up a board presence with vial. We want to be proactively using our lands. Since flickerwisp needs 2 W on T3 (and any other cards that cost WW), you generally want at least 13 W sources. Certain cards push you into one color or another (having BW on T2 for tidehollow sculler, or having G on T1 for noble hierarch), but generally, I wouldn't go below 3 basics in any splash, regardless how greedy. Mono W gets to be much less greedy since you don't have to splash, but that also means you can run more LD/ mana lands. If you run Eldrazi, you need I'd say around 8 colorless sources. this is why caves of koilos actually fixes that version of the deck's manabase the best because it hits all 2and a half colors.
Having said all that, if you haven't played the deck before, I'd start with mono W. It's really the best way to learn the deck and is most consistent.
Four mana means it competes with Thought-Knot Seer and Restoration Angel which both offer greater upside. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Linvala of Silence are both playable fours that are stronger that get little love. The ability is nice, but we've seen it before with Eternal Witness who is cheaper and gets back a greater number of card types.
No problem. I feel we can much better assist you if you show us a tentative decklist, because that looks very B heavy for a typical list, but perhaps you're running a lot of B cards to warrant it.
Glad to see you here, friend. Have you tried the monoW (colorless w) builds?
They're good basis for understanding the deck's mechanics.
To be more specific, that UW build was my first attempt at *any* D&T deck.
I suppose I could though; I just need to get some stuff like Serra Avenger, Brimaz, and Resto-- maybe Kitchen Finks? I don't know. I think I may try the Wall of Resurgence/Blinkmoth Nexus combo too, since I do have those cards and not any of the Swords. Going UW was easier for me from a mechanical standpoint since I'm already super familiar with Spell Queller/Reflector Mage-- I'm not so familiar with the others.
I guess I confess that I'm not so sure about how to actually play the deck in general-- what order cards should be played in; what priority I should have in getting creatures out and such.
Hi guys, I got a simple question : what can I do against deck with 4 blood moon main deck? I play a black white E&T with only 4basic lands, and always get rekt by blood moon turn 2 or 3...
Thalia helps a bit.
Aether Vial gives you an out vs Bloodmoon. You can also use it to get Flickerwisps in, exiling Bloodmoon for a turn.
If you run Tidehollows you might snag a moon.
You can also flicker at the end of your opponent's turn and then process with wasteland strangler
4cmc means its fighting with Reto & TKS. I really like the ability to get a creature back but costing 4 mana means its probably not going to get played. You could probably go with 3 resto or tks 1 gearsmith if you want to try it out though.
@Wagawagawali, fetches will sure you up against blood moon. Of course you could just use more basics but black white has a weaker manabase than either straight white or white green. Them is just the breaks.
Private Mod Note
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
Syndicate Trafficker Could be a potential card in a BW list? Eats Scullers with the trigger on the stack, eats excess vials, eats blade splicer tokens after the first strike damage, can be played with Hangarback Walker for value. Would probably need a heavier artifact emphasis, which would probably not be worth it, but it's an interesting avenue to explore.
@Wagawagawali, it's ok to run up to a set of fetches with an arbiter because you control when the arbiter enters the battlefield. You can play around it much more effectively than an opponent that doesn't know it's in your hand.
Fetches are great at fixing mana and getting you basics to thumb your nose at blood moons. The deck thinning effect is greatly exaggerated.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
So, just wondering, on average how many cards do we need in our mb to get wasteland strangler a majority of the time? if it is high, would relic of progenitus be a good mb option?
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I'm one of the same opinion about TGT's taxes your own spells. I did test her with Collected Company and it was insane. But my point about using nahiri with taxes is that, Nahiri is a very good card of herself, but she doesn't seem to help your main game plan. I don't think that Nahiri'mrakul is bad at all, but I guess that Kiki-Resto may work better. I'd love to know if Nahiri'mrakul works with someone.
edit:
If I'm not wrong, you should replace shambling vents or cave of koilos. I like manlands, but you have to live with the ETB tapped matter to use them. But koilos is perfectly replaced by Concealed Courtyard in non eldrazi decks
The biggest difference for me is that I don't like the idea of a 5 drop with a triple colored mana cost in my non-primary color. I do see where you're coming from withe the kiki-resto combo but i decided to try nahiri-emrakul because of nahiri's other utility and i'm honestly afraid of a RRR 5 drop in a more white than red deck.
You're going to have to do more work in order to show that the variance of a relatively rare event can swing +/- 5% because of ordinary, supposedly sufficient, shuffling techniques. Consider it preparation for the next time a judge watches you shuffle because you've managed to go Arbiter into double Ghost Quarter four or five times in a single tournament.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Thanks for the kind words, everyone.
My specialty may be Merfolk, but I've gotten a lot of reps both playing with and against D&T by virtue of my primary paper Magic friend (who owns all 3 variants of the deck I mentioned). Plus, the playstyles do share some similarities. D&T is leaning more heavily on the Vial and the tempo playstyle, and the W color base offers some different strengths and weaknesses than U, but the parallels are easy to draw.
That's not so cut-and-dried, in my opinion. You need a lot of U sources to support a T1 Mausoleum Wanderer.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
2-drop (12)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Selfless Spirit
3-drop (15)
4 Spell Queller
4 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Blade Splicer
2 Thought-Knot Seer
Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial
Instants (4)
4 Path to Exile
Land (23)
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Moorland Haunt
3 Plains
3 Island
Sideboard is yet to be decided on.
I do think I may drop the Blade Splicer and Thought-Knot Seers for some combination of Skaab Ruinator or Aven Mindcensor-- or if the new Thalias aren't pulling their weight, I may drop them for other things as well. But for now, my idea is to play as disruptively as possible-- bouncing creatures and destroying lands (so 6 land removers, and I'm considering running Spreading Seas in the sideboard for further disruption), all while taxing and making sure the taxes stay in place with Selfless Spirit and Eiganjo Castle. Faerie Conclave and Moorland Haunt can provide extra bodies on the field if needed. I know that the dual lands aren't the best choices, but I don't have much to choose from since I don't have Adarkar Wastes or Hallowed Fountains-- I assume those are much more ideal for this deck?
WB Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim | WBR Queen Marchesa | WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
Modern:
/ Death and Taxes | W/ Soul Sisters | Spirits | U Faeries | Tempered Steel Affinity
4 Path to Exile
1 Vapor Snag
4 Spell Queller
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Skaab Ruinator
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Moorland Haunt
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Flooded Strand
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hibernation
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spellskite
1 Worship
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Phyrexian Revoker
I won vs dredge 2-1, won vs elves 2-1(!), and won vs azbdan company 2-0. I lost vs dredge 0-2, and lost to eldrazi 0-2.
I hadn't put rest in peace in my board because I wanted to still use my yard and thought surgical extraction would be enough. The games with the current list were veryclose. If I can land worship, I win. Surgical is great if I can get it in the sort of mid/early part of the game so that I'm not too low and it can slow down their engine. Bounce is pretty good against them. I won a game with worship, and won another just by stalling. skaab ruinator was much bigger than any of his zombies and could block all day. jace, vryn's prodigy was pretty good if I could stay alive for a minute because path was invaluable and reusing surgical feels pretty good too. He and skaab helped me stabilize one game and I actually just won because my opponent milled himself. I might try putting a second worship in my board because I think it would help against eldrazi too.
Edlrazi sort of felt normal. I sided in phyrexian revoker which is pretty good against them, but I thought that endbringer was called endless one (oy) and it cost me the game. I'm not sure what would have happened if we went to G3 like we should have. I'm tempted by intrepid hero in the board for them, but it's just so narrow. I'll try another worship and see it how it feels. They're always a tough MU. For you RW D&T players, blood moon effects just destroy them. That's a MU I'm sure RW should have a better time of.
I'm surprised as you all might be that I beat elves and azbdan company, but again worship was an all-star and I just can't get over how good it feels to hibernation away their board (for elves). When that card comes in, it seriously is so good. I should make a video compilation of my games using it against boggles and elves (among others). I think the tempo of reflector mage and the ability of spell queller to hit almost anything they play really helps.
EDIT: I've been talking up skaab ruinator for this deck because it's very good in this shell, but for you other WU players, I probably wouldn't run more than 1. The card is great if you vial it in, but most versions of D&T can't stock the yard the way this version can. The card pairs really well with jace, vryn's prodigy because jace both makes Skaab easier to play, but also skaab can be pitched to jace at pretty much no cost. I've toyed around with Skaab in other lists, but I tend to not like it that much since it fights with moorland haunt for your GY resources. Moorland is one of THE reasons to splash U. It's a seriously powerful tool and you're probably better off just having it as a 2 of than skaab taking up a beater slot in your list without a way to fill the 'yard.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
While flooding/screw is pretty universal and keeps the total land count very close to 23x lands, deck building specifics make colorless utility lands more flexible and the number can vary more freely. In total, lists typically run 6x-8x colorless (4x of those being Ghost Quarter) but running 9x or even 10x isn't completely crazy (unlike running 25x lands which would be).
To be more specific to BW in particular, the manabase is going to be very interesting moving forward. There are probably two directions you can take a BW list: the more mono-white direction, or the more green-white direction.
As for your specific question about "can I up my TecEdge count?", that is really going to depend on what Courtyard replaces in your list. If you're replacing a different source (like Shambling Vent) then no, not really, because total color-sources would see no net change for you to "fit" TecEdge into. Color fixing would be conserved, and only pain or speed is getting traded around. You have to increase color overlap while keeping the number of color sources constant to increase the total number of colorless slots available.
Let the bracketed mana symbols represent different types of land.
W = Plains
B = Swamp
(C) = Ghost Quarter
[ ] = Caves of Koilos
{ } = Shambling Vent
< > = Concealed Courtyard
If we start with a small 10-land manabase example that has two each of Plains, Caves, Vents, Swamps, and GQ, then we see that there are 6 white sources, 6 black sources, and 2 colorless-only sources.
WW [ ] { }BB(CC)
If we swap out a Vent for a Courtyard, then nothing really changes as far as color-fixing sources count is concerned:
WW [ ] { } < > BB(CC)
The landbase still has 6W and 6B sources (4 overlapping), all that changed is a trade of early-game speed for a late-game body. However, if we now swap a basic Plains with Courtyard:
W [ ] { } < > BB(CC)
then something changes and there are 6W and 7B sources (5 overlapping). If we had previously decided that we wanted 6W+6B for color fixing, then we now have an extra black source that can be swapped out for another colorless LD land, like so:
W [ ] { } < > B(CCC)
Courtyard is pretty great not just because it offers a better option to Vents, etc as being an untapped BW source- but because it ups the total number of untapped BW sources to a place where we can really mess around with the manabase and design as much or little overlap as we want/need.
Previously, Godless Shrine and Caves of Koilos were the only real options for turn-1 color fixing. (Isolated Chapel is potentially fast early, fetches like Marsh Flats work to find Godless Shrine, and Fetid Heath is a decent 1-of for turn-2 on but none of those lands are self-sufficient.) Everything else is tapped (Temple of Silence, Orzhov Guildgate, Forsaken Sanctuary, Scoured Barrens, Shambling Vent, etc.). Finally getting a thrid playset of fast dual-color lands is pretty huge.
@Minos Engele - With 4xGQ/2xTecEdge/1xVault you should probably be able to increase the overlap to get another TecEdge pretty easily. Pushing even more overlap for 4xGQ/4xTecEdge/1xVault gets you to 9x colorless land which might start crowding your Scullers, Pontiffs, etc though. depending on what your list looks like for two-strict-mana cards.
I'd like to add to that:
If you run a low curve, you can get away with less lands, but typically, don't go under 22 and I'd say stick with 23. GW gets to do 22 sometimes since they have hierarch, but the idea behind our deck is to use our lands (LD) while still putting up a board presence with vial. We want to be proactively using our lands. Since flickerwisp needs 2 W on T3 (and any other cards that cost WW), you generally want at least 13 W sources. Certain cards push you into one color or another (having BW on T2 for tidehollow sculler, or having G on T1 for noble hierarch), but generally, I wouldn't go below 3 basics in any splash, regardless how greedy. Mono W gets to be much less greedy since you don't have to splash, but that also means you can run more LD/ mana lands. If you run Eldrazi, you need I'd say around 8 colorless sources. this is why caves of koilos actually fixes that version of the deck's manabase the best because it hits all 2and a half colors.
Having said all that, if you haven't played the deck before, I'd start with mono W. It's really the best way to learn the deck and is most consistent.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Four mana means it competes with Thought-Knot Seer and Restoration Angel which both offer greater upside. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Linvala of Silence are both playable fours that are stronger that get little love. The ability is nice, but we've seen it before with Eternal Witness who is cheaper and gets back a greater number of card types.
No problem. I feel we can much better assist you if you show us a tentative decklist, because that looks very B heavy for a typical list, but perhaps you're running a lot of B cards to warrant it.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Glad to see you here, friend. Have you tried the monoW (colorless w) builds?
They're good basis for understanding the deck's mechanics.
DnT! I'm a power-load
DnT! Watch me Explode
To be more specific, that UW build was my first attempt at *any* D&T deck.
I suppose I could though; I just need to get some stuff like Serra Avenger, Brimaz, and Resto-- maybe Kitchen Finks? I don't know. I think I may try the Wall of Resurgence/Blinkmoth Nexus combo too, since I do have those cards and not any of the Swords. Going UW was easier for me from a mechanical standpoint since I'm already super familiar with Spell Queller/Reflector Mage-- I'm not so familiar with the others.
I guess I confess that I'm not so sure about how to actually play the deck in general-- what order cards should be played in; what priority I should have in getting creatures out and such.
WB Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim | WBR Queen Marchesa | WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
Modern:
/ Death and Taxes | W/ Soul Sisters | Spirits | U Faeries | Tempered Steel Affinity
You can also flicker at the end of your opponent's turn and then process with wasteland strangler
Don't forget to ghost quarter yourself to basics either.
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
Fetches are great at fixing mana and getting you basics to thumb your nose at blood moons. The deck thinning effect is greatly exaggerated.