MTG Salvation

Quote from Killer_Manfred »

I left a comment inviting people to read up on our discussion here if they wanted to. It didn't show up, though.

Hmm, that's weird. I'll edit the description to have a link to here when I have a moment

Quote from Mazereon »

You've got a point on tasigur coming down earlier and anglers creature type not being as relevant as I thought it would be. With Hollow One being even better, angler just doesn't cut it anymore.
If the vengeful one list has the upper hand in the likes of consistency and explosiveness, what are the benefits of playing normal Dredgevine?
The Dredge heavy list is probably better at fighting graveyard hate and better on the defensive side, with stinkweed being a huge pain as a blocker. That are the only real benefits I can think of right now, aside from Dredge being a pretty broken mechanic on its own.
I mentioned stinkweed as I do not think that a 3 off Dredge card is that good for the deck. Dredge is a mechanic you either go hard, or don't bother trying. There should be cards that work better with this kind of setup than randomly dredging 4 at times.

I don't quite know what deck I am going to take to Hamburg, maybe I will just take both with me and decide spontaneously. But being way more experienced with delver I am probably ending up playing my jeskai deck.
But there are still nearly 2 months to go, so maybe there is a chance of me playing Dredgevine.

@skitzafreak:
I haven't been able to read more than the first couple of sentences on tapped out. But when I first saw the title of your video I instantly thought off that song and the line you quoted!

Gurmag Angler was a great card with a relevant creature type for our deck until the printing of Prized Amalgam That we can now get zombies back for essentially free to enable Gravecrawler players is huge game.

Honestly, if the Vengeful One list has more explosiveness and consistency, I don't think there are benefits to playing normal Dredgevine. I mean I guess the benefits would be more Dredge cards?

I honestly think the Dredge heavy lists are WORSE at fighting graveyard hate. Think of it this way. With a Dredge heavy list you are at the mercy of the top of your deck. You Dredge 5 cards off of a Stinkweed Imp and you hope you hit what you need. Or hope you don't hit everything if your opponent is waiting to activate something like Relic of Progenitus. Compare this with the Vengeful One list, where if you don't want to run into graveyard hate you can hold your cards back. You can even tempt your opponent early by discarding a Bloodghast or something, and then dump the rest of your hand when their hate cards are gone or dealt with.

Honestly, we'll see how the last 3 matches of my League go since I am stuck with running the 3 Stinkweed Imp right now lol. But you guys may be right, and I may not want to actually be running any Dredge cards in my list.

Quote from Mazereon »

I just browsed a little in gatherer and was searching for cheap cyclers that may be good, but there aren't many. So I don't think cylce is the way to go.

The next cards that came to mind were things like grisly salvage, but salvage only gets 1 creature and everything is dumped into the yard. What are your thoughts on cards like this, or gather the pack?

Honestly the only two cyclers i would run are Street Wraith and Edge of Autumn. And if you watched my first set of videos you know my thoughts on Edge lol

New videos up

Match 3 VS Infect

Match 4 VS UW Miracles

Match 5 VS Affinity

League 2 Wrap-Up Video and Deck Discussion

Quote from Killer_Manfred »

Loads of misplays this time, you really sounded tired, too. I'm excited to see another league with an adjusted decklist some time. The wrap-up video is great! I left a few notes in the comments.

Yeah I was honestly super tired. I did those matches after working a 15 hour day :\

I did it because I don't know when I'm going to get free time to do any more videos for the next week or so.

I'll keep that in mind guys. Glad you're enjoying the videos.

Here is ideally what the list will look like the next time I play it:



I say Ideally because we'll see if I have enough money to afford the tickets for those Brutality's

Skitzafreak, Ive been using your deck on xmage for a couple of days now. I really like the concept. Im going to keep playing it and report back here. I just got off a 14 hour shift and am too tired to recall my games. Real quick though, I feel more resilient to grave hate for the reasons you stated. Im not worried about dredging away my sideboard pieces.

One quick question, what do you side in the leylines against? I havent played any other grave based decks. I used them against grixis deaths shadow. they did ok but huge shadows still beat me down. I was thinking about cutting them for one more decay, one more grudge, and a couple of relics. Id love to hear your thoughts.

I would 100% not touch the Leylines in the sideboard. They hose opposing graveyard strategies to the point where they're just bad Modern decks. If you want an example, watch my match against Dredge from my first league. I got a Leyline game 3 (iirc) and my opponent just couldn't really do anything all game.

And honestly I probably wouldn't bring them in against the Grixis Death's Shadow deck. I know a lot of people who play traditional Dredge have been boarding them in but we don't need them. Prioritizing removal is better for our list. Against Shadow I can see myself doing something like...

+3 Lightning Axe
+2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Maelstrom Pulse
-3 Collective Brutality
-2 Prized Amalgam
-1 Bloodghast
-1 Insolent Neonate

Basically you bring in a whole bunch of removal to deal with their creatures. Decay hits Death's Shadow and Snapcaster Mage while Axe kills Tasigur and Gurmag Angler. And you round out with Pulse that can act as a kind of wrath effect if they have multiple of the same creatures in play. Most Death's Shadow lists are running Nihil Spellbomb as their graveyard interaction since it cantrips, so you can attempt to force their hand in using it. What's funny is I can imagine this deck having a great Death's Shadow match up. This is because while we do a lot of damage, which turns on Shadow, we go wide enough that we can get through all their blockers for lethal damage. Though it does suck how Hollow One turns on what would otherwise be a dead mode on Kolaghan's Command.

Quote from pizzap »

Quote from Skitzafreak »

Match 1 VS GW Aggro

Your inclusion of Street Wraith makes me want to brew with Death's Shadow and Varolz again.

Anyway, on turn 2, game 1 (2:40) could you have cycled the Wraith, cast Troll, discard the Bloodghast and Amalgam and cast Hollow One for 0? Next turn you can attack for 8 and the Bloodghast and Amalgam will join the team. Seems pretty unbeatable to me. Missed it or am I missing something?

No you weren't missing anything, that was definitely a line I could have taken that turn. It was a line I didn't see while playing, and honestly I didn't see it until you pointed it out. I'm going to have to once again get used to all the tricky little plays you can make with a deck like this. Feel free to keep pointing out plays like this I could have made if you see any. Only helps if I can improve

Quote from Killer_Manfred »

Looks good! Let me know how you liked the number of Brutalities. I'd also cut a Mountain and a Blackcleace Cliffs for a Blood Crypt and an Overgrown Tomb. I noticed one or two instances in your game where you had a fetch in hand, but had run out of targets. That's about the worst thing that can happen to a tricolour-manabase.

I'm going to try not changing the manabase at the moment. One of the issues with the fetchable lands in the last league was that I was dredging over lands I could fetch. With me removing Stinkweed Imp that shouldn't be a problem. That being said, if I find I am still having a problem with fetchable lands the next time I do some games/recordings, I will look into adding more fetchables to the mana base.

I do really like having a singleton Mountain however. Being able to tutor up a non-painful red source can sometimes be really handy, especially with how the deck does plenty of damage to itself with fetches, shocks, and Street Wraith

Just finished another League. And this time I threw the games into a playlist

Enjoy

Quote from pizzap »

I am toying a bit now with Hollow One. I like the broken feel of casting it t1 (after Looting and cycling the Wraith). This is a WIP. I guess I should swap a Mountain for a Forest, this was simply my old mana base. In the Tournament Practise it was good, but that doesn't say so much. I will take it to a League at some point.

i like the birds, i played a similar version without shadow/varolz and often i wanted 3 mana turn 2 in order to cast looting into 2 creatures to reanimate vengevine

also neonate is very weak in this deck

Why do you think the Neonates are weak? Or are you just talking about pizzap's list specifically?

Going to respond to the comments left on my videos from the last League (at least the ones I see at the moment):

Match 2 VS Soul Sisters

KillerManfred:
You asked for some play suggestions in the forum, so I'll write down everything I would have done differently this league:
G2, t2 you should sac the Neonate before attackers in case you draw a Vengevine.
Well...
T3 is the same thing. Precombat Neonate let's you draw action which could at least grow LolTroll. If it's a Vengevine, even better.
G3, t1 I recommend cycling the Straitwraith in case you find a Faithless Looting.

Yeah not sacrificing the Neonate pre-combat was definitely a mistake. Worst case scenario I draw another land. Medium case scenario, I draw another creature to discard to Lotleth Troll and I'm able to cast it, get back Bloodghast and cast a Hollow One for free. Best case scenario, which is what we ended up getting from the sac effect, is we draw a Vengevine, cast Troll, discard Gravecrawler and Vine to troll, cast Hollow One for free, attack for 4. While we still won the game and weren't punished for messing up the play, it is definitely one I should have made.

I have no idea why I didn't sac the Neonate on Turn 3 though. It seems like an extremely obvious play rewatching the video and it seems to have just gone over my head.

I disagree with cycling the Street Wraith on turn 1 for Game 3 however. With the hand I had I was trying to play into casting a free Hollow One as soon as possible. With the starting hand I had (Gravecrawler, Lotleth Troll, Bloodghast, Street Wraith, Hollow One, Cathartic Reunion, and a Mountain) my best bet to cast Hollow One for free is turn 2 after casting the Cathartic Reunion. My chances to draw a Faithless Looting off of cycling the wraith is 4 in 53, which using hypergeometric math gives me a 7% chance to hit. On the other hand, if I hold the cycle until turn 2, I am instead trying to get a land, which would be 16 in 53, which has a 51% chance for success. So I chose to take the 50/50 chance of getting a land and casting Hollow One for free on turn 2 instead of taking the 7% chance of drawing Faithless Looting and casting it on Turn 1. To be fair that opening hand probably should have been mulliganed, but I am still figuring out what hands are keepable and which aren't with this deck.

Match 5 VS Gifts Storm

Killer Manfred:
G3, t2 it's definitely wrong to not sac the Neonate to try and make your land drop. Especially with Bloodghast in hand.

Again this comes down to trying to play with Hollow One as my out. If I sac the 2nd Neonate to draw a land, I can get back a Bloodghast and my Prized Amalgam. Cool. But If I wait until next turn to sac the Neonate to find land 2 and I hit the second land, I can cast Cathartic Reunion pitching both Vengevines in my hand, and also have the ability to cast both Hollow Ones for free. This lines lets me attack for 8 damage the turn after, as opposed to just attacking for 5 with Bloodghast and Amalgam. I think plays like this require you to weigh what you think is more important, playing with what you have now, or trying to play to your outs for a more explosive turn. I find myself wanting to lean towards playing to that explosive turn honestly.

Wrap-Up Video

Dominic Beyeler:
Nice to see this deck in action. Dredgevine was my first modern deck a few years ago when I started to play modern. Now with the addition of Hollow One I put the deck back together.
You're talking about the Prized Amalgam not being optimal in this deck due to it being too slow. With the printing of Hollow One, Flamewake Phoenix could be another reanimation option. The additional mana cost and the smaller body is certainly a downside in comparison to the Prized Amalgam but it would be a faster option. What do you think?
Keep up the good work.

I am not sure if you are present in the thread or not, but I posted a response to your comment directing you here When I used to run Dredgevine I did test out Flamewake Pheonix. At the time I found it to be a fairly poor card because outside of Vengevine we didn't really have any way to turn on it's reanimate ability. But with Hollow One in the list I can see it being more potent this time around. I may give the little birdy a try the next time we play a league.

Quote from Skitzafreak »

I am not sure if you are present in the thread or not, but I posted a response to your comment directing you here When I used to run Dredgevine I did test out Flamewake Pheonix. At the time I found it to be a fairly poor card because outside of Vengevine we didn't really have any way to turn on it's reanimate ability. But with Hollow One in the list I can see it being more potent this time around. I may give the little birdy a try the next time we play a league.

Yes I'm here as well. I came pretty much to the same conclusion back when the phoenix came out, but haven't played the deck since then.
I hope that I can find the time to do some testing with all the new goodies.

Hey guys I have a simple question but i just dont know the answer. What tier deck is dredgevine. Id say tier 2 as I can get pretty early kills espciallu with gokd first hands.

What do you guys think?

The deck is honestly pushing Tier 3+ at the moment. Personally I consider it an extremely casual level Modern deck. My hope is that the Hollow One list I am running will give the deck enough of a competitive punch to get us closer to a Tier 2 status.

So, I played a few more games with Vengeful One. I honestly feel we are better than classic dredgvine lists. I play through hate easier. We just go aggro and have less dead draws. Actually being able to draw and play sideboard pieces is very very nice.

Im finding that we have a good match up against Grixis Deaths shadow. We run enough removal post board, and can play around and through their spellbombs, that I'm finding the match favorable.

One match up that feels unwinnable is against Tron variants. What do we do against them?

My local meta doesn't have any grave based decks. So I'll be removing the Leylines from the board when I play this locally. Not sure what I want to replace them with but I need some ideas for the Tron matchup.

Quote from omnivision6 »

So, I played a few more games with Vengeful One. I honestly feel we are better than classic dredgvine lists. I play through hate easier. We just go aggro and have less dead draws. Actually being able to draw and play sideboard pieces is very very nice.

Im finding that we have a good match up against Grixis Deaths shadow. We run enough removal post board, and can play around and through their spellbombs, that I'm finding the match favorable.

One match up that feels unwinnable is against Tron variants. What do we do against them?

My local meta doesn't have any grave based decks. So I'll be removing the Leylines from the board when I play this locally. Not sure what I want to replace them with but I need some ideas for the Tron matchup.

Have you made any changes to the list? If so what is it you're doing that differs from what the list I've been recording with is doing?

As for Tron, which tron variants have been really bad for you? Which do you want to fight against the most?

Quote from Skitzafreak »

Quote from omnivision6 »

So, I played a few more games with Vengeful One. I honestly feel we are better than classic dredgvine lists. I play through hate easier. We just go aggro and have less dead draws. Actually being able to draw and play sideboard pieces is very very nice.

Im finding that we have a good match up against Grixis Deaths shadow. We run enough removal post board, and can play around and through their spellbombs, that I'm finding the match favorable.

One match up that feels unwinnable is against Tron variants. What do we do against them?

My local meta doesn't have any grave based decks. So I'll be removing the Leylines from the board when I play this locally. Not sure what I want to replace them with but I need some ideas for the Tron matchup.

Have you made any changes to the list? If so what is it you're doing that differs from what the list I've been recording with is doing?

As for Tron, which tron variants have been really bad for you? Which do you want to fight against the most?

I haven't varied the list at all. I'm using your list with three brutalities and tasigur. I want to test it more before considering changes. I am noticing I don't like cathartic reunion. But I'm 100% sure it's my terrible play and not the card itself.

As for Tron, well, all of them have been destroying me. Eldrazi Tron, w/g Tron, and anything in between.

Edit: OMG!!! just had a nut dream hand on xmage. First turn cycle wraith. cast faithless looting discarding two vengevines. cast two hollow ones. opponent was salty as hell. I was literally shaking with excitement.