I agree with soracak, the no cast trigger is a let down, but the mechanic seems to be a slight step up from unearth. I guess it will come down to whether or not any of the cards have good abilities for being a more permanent option to unearth. Relentless rats is pretty good for the current slot and dregscape zombie seems to be decent as a 2/1 because he will die most of the time anyway, so 1 mana isn't all that bad of an investment. I guess an embalm card I would play have to be 3 or less (preferably less) with a decent body or evasion to allow it to stick around or chip away. Probably a 1/4 embalm 1B would be decent, could hold up to stop a bit of damage and actively recur the gravecrawlers whenever you want. 1B 1/1 Flying or deathtouch would also be decent to whittle damage or act as a stall.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
Hello, I have been working on multiple versions of dredgevine for a bit on MTGO. The core dredgevine list, while explosive, was leaving something to be desired in consistency. I wanted to share the angle that I have been taking as an alternate route.
The core idea has been to switch from dredgers, to more critters that I could cast. After a while, I started having alot of success with focusing on hitting my curve. This lead me to the idea of turning into a bad ramp deck. The new plan is to focus on a strong turn 3 play. The core parts of the dredgevine list are still intact, leaving plenty of games where hedron crab/faithless looting/Lotleth troll just go nuts and win the game alone.
Now, the difference in the two lists. The Sultai list is where I started. Its full of value and does an excellence job in consistency. Unfortunately, it struggles greatly with the aggressive decks as well as any decks with 4 kitchen finks. I recently started on the Jund "DemiVine" list. The DemiVine list feels a lot more like a ramp deck, where you are trying to just nail the opponent with a big threat. However, It still gets to abuse the graveyard. I had to cut a lot of the value based mill cards, but man does the list cause fits. Sylvan Caryatid is excellent at holding down the fort, so much so that I am eager to see if it helps with some of the Sultia lists problems with aggressive decks.
In summary, these lists are awesome at functioning with the bad hands. My biggest issue with traditional dredge vine was how bad the consistency would be. These lists do sacrafice some explosion, but you would be surprised how how often just a few 2/1s, 3/3s,and 4/3s can get the job done compared to having a ton. Also, triggering VV is very easy in these lists.
Sidsi has been great, gets weaker after board if you bring in to many non critters.
Sidsi led to exploring big mana critters. Demigod is in a good spot right now since the world is full of death shadows, eldrazi critters, and grixis decks. Hes worth keeping an open mind on if you are thinking about leaving the dredge heavy lists.
Gravecrawlers still the best vv recurring critter in the deck,
In the sultai list, coiling oracle is a hero. He either triggers bloodghast or draws a creature while also letting you turn 3 sidsi/VV. Wanted to give him a little love while im typing up a storm
I think demigod is only good in BR midrange/control lists because they run enough interaction to survive that long and he breaks the symmetry of Liliana +1 effects
I think T4 is more than a little optimistic. First you need to hit your demigods without having them hated out of the grave, and you need to hope your mana dorks don't eat removal along the way.
All that when you're running no disruption and barely any dig?
I think T4 is more than a little optimistic. First you need to hit your demigods without having them hated out of the grave, and you need to hope your mana dorks don't eat removal along the way.
All that when you're running no disruption and barely any dig?
I did not mean to offend you. Nothing I am posting is based on speculation, I am actively playing 4-5 matches a night with dredgevine. I can assure you demigod is castable and brings an interesting punch to the deck that it did not have before.
Target creature gets +1/+0 and gains indestructible until end of turn.
-----------------
Aftermath (Cast this spell only from your graveyard. Then exile it.)
All creatures able to block target creature this turn must do so.
The destined part seems to be irrelevant for the most part but the lead part could be a finisher against other decks that go horizontal. It could also act as a removal spell if you have a Stinkweed Imp out. I am tempted to try it out in the sideboard.
The core dredgevine list, while explosive, was leaving something to be desired in consistency
I just am thinking about before we had the big overhaul around SOI. We I think bringing in cathartic reunion, prized amalgam, and neonate all at once threw off what I was used to playing. I think the new cards were a lot of variables to bring in all at once. I am going to go back to my pre-SOI list and then build off of that. I like the current list a lot, but I think the two styles of play are really different and I want to try and bring back some of the consistency while keeping the extremely fast pace.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
Geistflame cost 4 and did nothing, Fires of Undeath cost 6. Now there's Insult // Injury (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28674-insult). I'm not yet sure if this will be good enough when having to compete with Conflagrate, though. I often found myself wanting a mainboard Lightning Bolt just to hit people in the face with it. This might be that card. I also love the frontside's interaction with LolTroll. Nevertheless, this is probably too cute for most lists :/
I think it could be great, with a 2/1, 3/3 and 4/3 in play we can just kill now, relevant in any matchups we feel a turm to slow in, like tron, combo, or affinity/rdw on the draw. I would normally not consider playing a card like that, but having a relevant ability in the yard makes it much more interesting.
I would love to see your current list Killer_Manfred.
Any thoughts on the new bicycle lands? I was thinking they might be nice with life of the loam to get some explosive late-game dredge's. But they could be a little too slow in the early-game coming in tapped and maybe too expensive at 2 mana to cycle later in the game. I don't have enough experience with the deck yet to know for sure.
Maybe in the sultai list that was posted earlier, but not in the current style most people are playing tapped lands are crippling in the early turns ans we usually don't get enough lands out to be comfrotablenpaying 2 mana to cycle.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
Awesome Killer_Manfred, thanks for the list! I'm planning to start going to some modern FNMs at my LGS and I have a pretty similar list. I'll try to write up my report and contribute to the tuning of the deck.
Dread Wanderer
B
Creature - Zombie Jackal, Rare
Dread Wanderer enters the battlefield tapped.
2B: Return Dread Wanderer from your graveyard to the battlefield. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery and only if you have one or fewer cards in hand.
2/1
Worth a shot, I was going back and forth on it but since we have amalgams putting it into play is still a decent move, even though it's not cast. One mana from the hand zombie is incredible. I'll definitely try 2-3.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
I think I like bringing back either the new Hydra for 4 mana or Haunted Dead for 2 better. I seldomly find myself not being able to recurr Vengevine once I got them in the gy, so playing an additional one-drop zombie will just take up space in my list.
I also did some testing yesterday against a couple of established decks (Naya Zoo, Grixis Shadow, Eldrazi and Taxes) and took loads of notes. I'll do a write-up over the weekend.
Playtesting yesterday I realised I want Life from the Loam back in the main, mainly to support Conflagrate. I'll also for the first time ever go down to 19 lands. McClain on a recent CFB video feat. traditional Dredge also ran 19 (a thing I'd been contemplating for a long time, anyway). Maybe it'll also work for our archetype.
I haven't taken loam out since I put it in, it's definitely worth the single spot because I has become so much more powerful with amalgam. The lands allow us to bring back bloodghast and amalgam and in essence gravecrawler and vengevine. It breaks stalemates allowing us to overwhelm in the long game.
Also I have been playing around with the non-creature spells and I'm swapping cathartic reunion out for grisly salvage. I realize this is controversial but I find a lot of times the two cards from my hand is a lot to ask considering we usually only have so many cards to discard. I think cathartic reunion is significantly better in normal dredge. I am just trying this change out to see how it helps our consistency.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
R1: Abzan Coco w/ the new Vizier of Remedies. 2-0
Sideboard:
+3 brutality
+2 Darkblast
-2 Neonate
-1 Loam
-1 Ghast
-1 Thug
Notable plays:
g2, t3 He had hierarch, birds + Vizier on board ready to combo off next turn. I flashback conflag, dumping my hand for the boardwipe and he scoops.
R2: Mardu Midrange w/ discards/removal/souls package. 2-1
Sideboard:
+3 brutality
+2 Darkblast
-2 Neonate
-1 Loam
-1 Ghast
-1 Thug
Notable plays:
g3, went to time t5 he's at 18 life and clogs the board w/ 4 souls tokens, a 2/2 knight & +1 sorin for lifelink to go for the draw. I had 3 lands in hand and dredge loam, then cast loam and drop a land to flashback conflag for 5 wiping his souls tokens to alpha strike with 3 vv, 2 crawler & 2 amalgam.
R3: B/W Sacrifice. Typical blood artist, Zulaport sac & drain deck with souls. 2-0
Sideboard:
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Darkblast
-2 Neonate
-1 Loam
-1 Ghast
-1 Thug
Notable plays:
EoT darkblast my thug in play, putting gcrawler on top of library. draw and cast gcrawler and a 2nd i had in gy to reanimate 3 vv for the win.
r4: Bant Eldrazi, stock. 2-1
Sideboard:
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Grudge
+2 Axe
-2 Neonate
-1 Loam
-1 Ghast
-1 Conflag
Notable plays:
None, really. You just have to either mull to extreme gas or have t1 discard because he ran 2 cage/2 rip.
r5: Eldrazi Tron, stock. 2-0
Sideboard:
+2 Grudge
+3 Thoughtseize
-2 Neonate
-1 Loam
-1 Ghast
-1 Conflag
Notable plays:
Chalice against use is not as good as it is against the rest of the meta.
g2, t3 I dredge thug to toss 2 vv in the gy and then I cast Neonate, it gets countered, then cast thug to reanimate both vv.
he's dead soon after.
Summary:
I believe this is the best variation of Dredgevine for now. I think it may be as powerful as the T1 dredge, but nobody plays this version. It's so consistent and synergistic and I don't think it folds that bad to gy hate. Conflag + loam were the allstars this evening and it is what gives the deck the reach/removal it desperately needed. I'd love to hear any feedback. Thanks in advance.
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Would have obviated the need for zombies and gravecrawlers.
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
The core idea has been to switch from dredgers, to more critters that I could cast. After a while, I started having alot of success with focusing on hitting my curve. This lead me to the idea of turning into a bad ramp deck. The new plan is to focus on a strong turn 3 play. The core parts of the dredgevine list are still intact, leaving plenty of games where hedron crab/faithless looting/Lotleth troll just go nuts and win the game alone.
Now, the difference in the two lists. The Sultai list is where I started. Its full of value and does an excellence job in consistency. Unfortunately, it struggles greatly with the aggressive decks as well as any decks with 4 kitchen finks. I recently started on the Jund "DemiVine" list. The DemiVine list feels a lot more like a ramp deck, where you are trying to just nail the opponent with a big threat. However, It still gets to abuse the graveyard. I had to cut a lot of the value based mill cards, but man does the list cause fits. Sylvan Caryatid is excellent at holding down the fort, so much so that I am eager to see if it helps with some of the Sultia lists problems with aggressive decks.
In summary, these lists are awesome at functioning with the bad hands. My biggest issue with traditional dredge vine was how bad the consistency would be. These lists do sacrafice some explosion, but you would be surprised how how often just a few 2/1s, 3/3s,and 4/3s can get the job done compared to having a ton. Also, triggering VV is very easy in these lists.
4 Vengevine
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
3 sidisi, brood tyrant
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Prized Amalgam
4 coiling oracle
4 satyr wayfinder
4 Hedron Crab
21 Lands
4 Vengevine
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Lotleth Troll
4 Prized Amalgam
4 sylvan caryatid
4 satyr wayfinder
4 Faithless Looting
Lands (22)
22 Lands
Sidsi led to exploring big mana critters. Demigod is in a good spot right now since the world is full of death shadows, eldrazi critters, and grixis decks. Hes worth keeping an open mind on if you are thinking about leaving the dredge heavy lists.
Gravecrawlers still the best vv recurring critter in the deck,
In the sultai list, coiling oracle is a hero. He either triggers bloodghast or draws a creature while also letting you turn 3 sidsi/VV. Wanted to give him a little love while im typing up a storm
All that when you're running no disruption and barely any dig?
I did not mean to offend you. Nothing I am posting is based on speculation, I am actively playing 4-5 matches a night with dredgevine. I can assure you demigod is castable and brings an interesting punch to the deck that it did not have before.
Target creature gets +1/+0 and gains indestructible until end of turn.
-----------------
Aftermath (Cast this spell only from your graveyard. Then exile it.)
All creatures able to block target creature this turn must do so.
The destined part seems to be irrelevant for the most part but the lead part could be a finisher against other decks that go horizontal. It could also act as a removal spell if you have a Stinkweed Imp out. I am tempted to try it out in the sideboard.
Also I agree with what @QwrtVV said
I just am thinking about before we had the big overhaul around SOI. We I think bringing in cathartic reunion, prized amalgam, and neonate all at once threw off what I was used to playing. I think the new cards were a lot of variables to bring in all at once. I am going to go back to my pre-SOI list and then build off of that. I like the current list a lot, but I think the two styles of play are really different and I want to try and bring back some of the consistency while keeping the extremely fast pace.
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
Lead seems like a great tool to have in the yard, I am worried a little bit about the cost.
I think it could be great, with a 2/1, 3/3 and 4/3 in play we can just kill now, relevant in any matchups we feel a turm to slow in, like tron, combo, or affinity/rdw on the draw. I would normally not consider playing a card like that, but having a relevant ability in the yard makes it much more interesting.
Any thoughts on the new bicycle lands? I was thinking they might be nice with life of the loam to get some explosive late-game dredge's. But they could be a little too slow in the early-game coming in tapped and maybe too expensive at 2 mana to cycle later in the game. I don't have enough experience with the deck yet to know for sure.
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
Dread Wanderer
B
Creature - Zombie Jackal, Rare
Dread Wanderer enters the battlefield tapped.
2B: Return Dread Wanderer from your graveyard to the battlefield. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery and only if you have one or fewer cards in hand.
2/1
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
I haven't taken loam out since I put it in, it's definitely worth the single spot because I has become so much more powerful with amalgam. The lands allow us to bring back bloodghast and amalgam and in essence gravecrawler and vengevine. It breaks stalemates allowing us to overwhelm in the long game.
Also I have been playing around with the non-creature spells and I'm swapping cathartic reunion out for grisly salvage. I realize this is controversial but I find a lot of times the two cards from my hand is a lot to ask considering we usually only have so many cards to discard. I think cathartic reunion is significantly better in normal dredge. I am just trying this change out to see how it helps our consistency.
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
How do people feel about Bonepicker? Seems maybe decent for a situational one mana cost beater/blocker to recur some vengevines.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Golgari Thug
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine
4 Faithless Looting
2 Life from the Loam
2 Conflagrate
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Watery Grave
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Collective Brutality
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Axe
2 Abrupt Decay
R1: Abzan Coco w/ the new Vizier of Remedies. 2-0
Sideboard:
+3 brutality
+2 Darkblast
-2 Neonate
-1 Loam
-1 Ghast
-1 Thug
Notable plays:
g2, t3 He had hierarch, birds + Vizier on board ready to combo off next turn. I flashback conflag, dumping my hand for the boardwipe and he scoops.
R2: Mardu Midrange w/ discards/removal/souls package. 2-1
Sideboard:
+3 brutality
+2 Darkblast
-2 Neonate
-1 Loam
-1 Ghast
-1 Thug
Notable plays:
g3, went to time t5 he's at 18 life and clogs the board w/ 4 souls tokens, a 2/2 knight & +1 sorin for lifelink to go for the draw. I had 3 lands in hand and dredge loam, then cast loam and drop a land to flashback conflag for 5 wiping his souls tokens to alpha strike with 3 vv, 2 crawler & 2 amalgam.
R3: B/W Sacrifice. Typical blood artist, Zulaport sac & drain deck with souls. 2-0
Sideboard:
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Darkblast
-2 Neonate
-1 Loam
-1 Ghast
-1 Thug
Notable plays:
EoT darkblast my thug in play, putting gcrawler on top of library. draw and cast gcrawler and a 2nd i had in gy to reanimate 3 vv for the win.
r4: Bant Eldrazi, stock. 2-1
Sideboard:
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Grudge
+2 Axe
-2 Neonate
-1 Loam
-1 Ghast
-1 Conflag
Notable plays:
None, really. You just have to either mull to extreme gas or have t1 discard because he ran 2 cage/2 rip.
r5: Eldrazi Tron, stock. 2-0
Sideboard:
+2 Grudge
+3 Thoughtseize
-2 Neonate
-1 Loam
-1 Ghast
-1 Conflag
Notable plays:
Chalice against use is not as good as it is against the rest of the meta.
g2, t3 I dredge thug to toss 2 vv in the gy and then I cast Neonate, it gets countered, then cast thug to reanimate both vv.
he's dead soon after.
Summary:
I believe this is the best variation of Dredgevine for now. I think it may be as powerful as the T1 dredge, but nobody plays this version. It's so consistent and synergistic and I don't think it folds that bad to gy hate. Conflag + loam were the allstars this evening and it is what gives the deck the reach/removal it desperately needed. I'd love to hear any feedback. Thanks in advance.