On average Jund is faster, but BUGs good draw are quite fast to. Turn 1 crab into turn 2 fetch and grisly salvage into turn 3 fetch + angler and say a gravecrawler triggering a vengevine or two is also pretty fast. The biggest selling points for me is that you get to draw actual cards instead of dredging every turn. I feel like normal jund dredgevine is sort of a "clunkier" dredge deck, while the BUG deck focus more on setting up a big turn 3 and give room for playing a little more controlling if needed in the early turns.
does anyone feel the all-in dredge (6 or more dredger) approach for dredgevine to be more inconsistent nowadays? i keep getting bad hands and mulligans are also terrible, the deck really feels clunky.
does anyone feel the all-in dredge (6 or more dredger) approach for dredgevine to be more inconsistent nowadays? i keep getting bad hands and mulligans are also terrible, the deck really feels clunky.
I've always kind of had this feeling about all-in. I feel like a lot of times you can hit a wall. In the past I never had issues with it, however the deck was also a lot slower. I feel the dredgevine in general is either a more mid-range aggro style deck that can play recursion and removal to usually outlast most opponents (still a fast deck, just not as aggressive with t1/2) or what it has developed into now where our deck is extremely aggressive outplaying almost all decks, but also very fragile.
I have been meaning to post for awhile now but have been busy. I got to play an infect deck a couple of times last week, and considering they used to be my worst matchup I really enjoyed it. I got to test the updated deck to it's full extent by actually playing faster than infect(!) and I also got to try out the rampager, which I also really liked. However I lost my third game by sputtering out, a lot of cards are great enablers but completely dead in the yard, as I often go through 20ish cards and hit one or two 2/1 creatures to bring back with a bunch of lands/red enablers that do nothing. Faithless looting does have flashback but with our new style of deck I feel that the three mana really is too much for the pace we are trying to play. With no removal and trying to flashback on turn three feels desperate. I kind of want to try the old deck style with a slower approach but update it with amalgam and maybe neonates. I also would like to try and put some dredge cards back in to get full value out of my graveyard as well as make my deck more resilient to grafdiggers cage/relic.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
Very true. If you can't win with a bunch of angry vegetables, a giant squid won't help you either. That's Modern 101.
On a more serious note: Have the people still running two Haunted Dead ever considering swapping one out for a Rampager? I don't know what I like more, the nice end-of-declare-attackers flying blocker from Haunted Dead or the chance of great openers with a one-of elephant. Creamy, didn't you mention you might try Greenbelt a while back?
I have two in my mainboard of Greenbelt Rampager. It's amazing and sexy; trying to find a third, but not sure as to what I can squeeze.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Haunted dead is just too good to drop. Even the dredge guys are now switching their scourge for haunted dead. I think that says alot.
The part about clunky is real. In dredge the typical game plan is very consistent. Just dredge, loam and conflagrate ftw. Here we have creatures that would be better off not casting (so we can later trigger the vengevines which may not appear in the yard), and if running conflagrate messes with the double red mana along with our double black.
Speed wise it's not so much we have slowed but combo decks are getting faster and more consistent. Either count up 20 in the first few turns or bust. That's the feeling I got.
I am actually pretty hyped about damnation. I always wanted to try it but $40-$60 for MAYBE a one or two of in the sideboard wasn't interesting me. However if it goes down to $20 I will definitely pick some up. My worst matchups tend to be decks that go horizontal such as Coco, allies, abzan. Anything that can wrack up a board I can't blow past. I think damnation would be a finished against these decks, they over extend and on turn four you wipe having three turns of cards in your graveyard allows you to go right into them the next turn. I also am really excited about verdant catacombs, I realize we no longer are as hard into BG but one of the worst cards for me to play against in the past was blood moon. Catacombs allows us to fetch for a forest or swamp. Outside of this scenario it's really not a big deal because I almost always fetch for a shock but it's a slight improvement.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
I'm honestly surprised 2 is a good count. For me, cards which are dead in the yard were always either a one-of or a playset because it's so bad to dredge them away.
I want to up the count to 4. I haven't had enough time to test specifics, but I need to find something to cut.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
i've constantly tweaking my dredgevine list after the GGT ban and finally settled with this list.
this is somewhat similar with the list posted by Gdragon430 (@p57) which is based from Legion's list from modern fiesta in 2015, i've backtrack the old dredgevine thread to read discussions about his list but only found a few of them.
Aside from this, the deck have fewer core cards (vine, crawler, troll, imp, neonate, angler, looting), more rooms for flexibility.
I choose Bloodghast for added aggression and Gather the Pack to fuel both our graveyard and our hand with a creature (spell mastery is just a bonus). Both of this cards are replaceable.
i think this list is a better home for those wanting to test Greenbelt Rampager as the deck have the slots to add them, focus on casting and doesn't dredge too hard for it to end up in the yard. i would definitely test rampager after i get more games with the current list. i've been enjoying this list for 2-weeks now
thanks killer_manfred for your feedback, i still like Dredgevine as i mentioned the list i posted is more focused with Vengevine, while the vengevine in the super vengevine list is just an option/bonus in that deck.
imo the #1 suspect why the all-in-dredgevine (post GGT) feels clunky was less dredging power and Prized Amalgam itself, that card wants to hit the graveyard really fast making dredgevine to dedicate more in dredging while Vengevine on the other hand wants you to cast creatures and it's actually a bit difficult to achieve that since we're not actually drawing cards unless we have a creature in the opening hand or we hit Gravecrawler in the graveyard and a Prized Amalgam in play.
Its been a long time since a dredgevine list made it to a really good finish. The reason maybe is that i find new list to be going to the all-in dredge plan which i find it the wrong way to go not like Legion273's list that went the other way which i really really like. I tried contacting Legion273 mtgo (Justin Leshen) i want to ask many questions and maybe get a video coverage or two of his list but failed to.
I'm no expert but I feel the same thing with Gdragon430, I don't have this issue pre-GGT. I backtrack pre-SOI, saw the list of Legion and start from there.
yep! same here, i still believe in the power of our great vegetable in all of it's form, goodluck in your tournament.
by the way, i saw a dredgevine deck that made top-4 in TCG states: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-dredge-34568#paper
this is the same list used by twoo in his latest dredgeswarm vids. i hope this make a start to make other players take notice the power of vengevine.
Round1 vs GR Tron (2-0): i have played with him in the past.
G1: started with a quick win t1: loot > got gurmag, fetch land > discard vine and imp
t2: dredge > cast neonate, dredge again hitting the 2nd vine > cast gurmag, trigger 2 vines.
G2: -2 axe, -3 push, -2 decay, -1 allure || +3 grudge, +2 pithing needle, +3 thoughtseize.
cant recall much of the game but my opponent started slow, doesn't assembled tron lands at t3, thoughtseize get the job done and haven't able to cast the pithing needle to test it.
*a good and lucky start in the tournament
Round2 vs Puresteel Paladin Storm (2-0)
G1: Easy win, opponent tought i was playing a regular dredge deck due to my t1 play of looting discarding an imp, opponent plays an early paladin and plans to take off early only to be surprised by a fatal push.
G2: -2 gather the pack, -1 gurmag || +3 thoughtseize, another easy win.
*i think cheerios have a very minimal chance to win against this list
Round3 vs Merfolk (0-2)
Lost both games, it's my first time playing against this deck, spreading seas is a pain in the "A".
Round4 vs Abzan (2-0): i'm quite familiar with the gy hate cards in his deck since we have played multiple times in the past (he does have ooze, anafenza and kalitas in the main and RIP in SB).
G1: Another quick start with t1: looting > discard imp and vengevine, t2 dredge hitting a crawler cast gurmag and a crawler from graveyard trigger vine. cant remember his plays throughout the game but he did path my gurmag and was able to cast an ooze only to be answered by fatal push, in the end Gurmag and Lotleth troll win the game.
G2: -1 gather the pack, -1 gurmag, -1 neonate, -1 imp || +3 thoughtseize, +1 reclamation sage
opponent were able to cast ooze and anafenza but I was able to quickly handle both with my mainboard removals, the deck took off since then. Again Gurmag and Lotleth Troll win the game for me, it seems that my opponent doesn't have Dismember in his 75 and have problem removing those 2 creatures. He was really surprised to see that i'm playing fatal pushes.
the result might be due to catching my opponent of guard with more interaction cards mainboard but i think the list is flexible enough to handle multiple matchups.
yeah! looks like i got a lucky game, thru goldfishing i normally hit stinkweed imp at turn 2 or 3 via gather the pack.
i might change gather the pack back to grisly salvage, i dont want to be tapped out of mana at t2 while i have interaction cards in my hand, the instant speed of grisly salvage is really relevant to keep my mana open as long as possible. i might cut 1 of the salvage effect and add a golgari thug as additional dredger and toolbox for Gurmag Angler or Lotleth Troll if needed, those 2 creatures are resilient in today's fatal push meta.
Merfolk isn't a bad loss either. I lose to almost any creature based decks that build (Allies, Coco, merfolk). Do you guys think damnation would help with those matchups at all?
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
Merfolk isn't a bad loss either. I lose to almost any creature based decks that build (Allies, Coco, merfolk). Do you guys think damnation would help with those matchups at all?
i haven't played enough games with my new list, but i'm also considering a singleton boardwipe removal in my sideboard, i've played against Merfolk and BW tokens and i consider both of them to be a difficult matchup, i might use languish instead of damnation aside from budget, this wide decks doesn't have high toughness creatures and languish would be enough for them.
How did your various removal spells feel? Deadly alure is interesting but also incredibly good against stuff like boggles. I really like the idea of removal that doesn't target creatures but I feel like it's more of a sideboard card.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
i'm very satisfied specially with fatal push, revolt can be easily triggered with 8 fetches and can hit most of modern staple creatures including the problematic ones (ooze, anafenza, kalitas). the deck is slow and the removal package helps early game while i'm setting up the deck's creature recursion which normally starts at turn3. it's common to see a removal spell in my hand with 7 MB removal (excluding allure).
it is important that the removal should be at 1-cmc (except for abrupt) so that we can cast a removal spell and gather the pack or any salvage card at turn 3. I'm thinking about Abrupt Decay due to the mentioned reason, but it's flexibility might be enough for it to have a spot in my list.
what i really like with the midrange approach is that we may not over commit in dredging and draw actual cards once we have a resolved vengevine, lotleth troll or gurmag angler in the field and control the board from there.
I just added deadly allure for it's graveyard value and sometimes to force our opponent to block a recursive gravecrawler.
if in opening hand: sometimes i cast gravecrawler t1, attack with gravecrawler w/ allure t2 to force opponent to block.
i wont cut neonate, i consider it as a core in any dredgevine built whether it's all-in dredge or midrange, the neonate + dredge tech is really great to start our graveyard engine, plus it's a discard engine, easy to cast for triggering vengevine. past t2 we can cast neonate for triggering vengevine, a blocker, a card drawer, revolt trigger, dump for looting and a discard fodder for lotleth trolls' counter.
i agree with you with salvage vs gather, instant speed is really important.
for deadly allure, for now it's in the deck but it may go and be swap for extra dredger: i may include extra golgari thug x2 in exchange for deadly allure and 1-salvage.
imo, discard is just for sideboard in this deck, putting it in maindeck will turn it to a fullblown midrange deck. i'd consider my list as an aggro-midrange
I like your midrange list a lot. I've been testing a tweaked version of it over the last couple days. I thought Life from the Loam might be a better add over Allure but I actually got a lot of utility out of adding back Gurmag Anglers back off Golgari Thug's trigger. I'm going back and forth on Bolts vs. Push though. Sometimes going upstairs was what I needed to get there, others I needed to drop a Death's Shadow/Goyf/Man-Lands etc. That one's gonna take some more testing.
Overall I enjoy playing the deck a lot more. Definitely looking forward to seeing where the deck lands with Ahmonket. In the meantime I'm gonna try to figure out the best BUG mirror of that list. Seems like Hedron Crab swaps for Neonate okay, Axe isn't anything special but losing Looting has to be worth it for something. Anyway thanks for putting that up!
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I have been meaning to post for awhile now but have been busy. I got to play an infect deck a couple of times last week, and considering they used to be my worst matchup I really enjoyed it. I got to test the updated deck to it's full extent by actually playing faster than infect(!) and I also got to try out the rampager, which I also really liked. However I lost my third game by sputtering out, a lot of cards are great enablers but completely dead in the yard, as I often go through 20ish cards and hit one or two 2/1 creatures to bring back with a bunch of lands/red enablers that do nothing. Faithless looting does have flashback but with our new style of deck I feel that the three mana really is too much for the pace we are trying to play. With no removal and trying to flashback on turn three feels desperate. I kind of want to try the old deck style with a slower approach but update it with amalgam and maybe neonates. I also would like to try and put some dredge cards back in to get full value out of my graveyard as well as make my deck more resilient to grafdiggers cage/relic.
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
The part about clunky is real. In dredge the typical game plan is very consistent. Just dredge, loam and conflagrate ftw. Here we have creatures that would be better off not casting (so we can later trigger the vengevines which may not appear in the yard), and if running conflagrate messes with the double red mana along with our double black.
Speed wise it's not so much we have slowed but combo decks are getting faster and more consistent. Either count up 20 in the first few turns or bust. That's the feeling I got.
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
this is somewhat similar with the list posted by Gdragon430 (@p57) which is based from Legion's list from modern fiesta in 2015, i've backtrack the old dredgevine thread to read discussions about his list but only found a few of them.
4 Vengevine
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gather the Pack
2 Lightning Axe
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Deadly Allure
20 Lands
the list still uses some dredge to fuel our graveyard but the main difference is that it focuses more on casting creatures.
Gurmag Angler is great in the current meta of fatal push, it can also play around grafdiggers cage and sometimes relic of progenitus, but very terrible against RIP. A turn-2 gurmag is possible for this list.
Aside from this, the deck have fewer core cards (vine, crawler, troll, imp, neonate, angler, looting), more rooms for flexibility.
I choose Bloodghast for added aggression and Gather the Pack to fuel both our graveyard and our hand with a creature (spell mastery is just a bonus). Both of this cards are replaceable.
i think this list is a better home for those wanting to test Greenbelt Rampager as the deck have the slots to add them, focus on casting and doesn't dredge too hard for it to end up in the yard. i would definitely test rampager after i get more games with the current list. i've been enjoying this list for 2-weeks now
imo the #1 suspect why the all-in-dredgevine (post GGT) feels clunky was less dredging power and Prized Amalgam itself, that card wants to hit the graveyard really fast making dredgevine to dedicate more in dredging while Vengevine on the other hand wants you to cast creatures and it's actually a bit difficult to achieve that since we're not actually drawing cards unless we have a creature in the opening hand or we hit Gravecrawler in the graveyard and a Prized Amalgam in play.
I'm no expert but I feel the same thing with Gdragon430, I don't have this issue pre-GGT. I backtrack pre-SOI, saw the list of Legion and start from there.
by the way, i saw a dredgevine deck that made top-4 in TCG states: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-dredge-34568#paper
this is the same list used by twoo in his latest dredgeswarm vids. i hope this make a start to make other players take notice the power of vengevine.
4 Vengevine
4 Gravecrawler
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gather the Pack
3 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Axe
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Deadly Allure
20 Lands
3 Thoughtseize
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
1 Collective Brutality
1 Darkblast
1 Reclamation Sage
Got a 3-1 result in an 8-man tournament:
Round1 vs GR Tron (2-0): i have played with him in the past.
G1: started with a quick win t1: loot > got gurmag, fetch land > discard vine and imp
t2: dredge > cast neonate, dredge again hitting the 2nd vine > cast gurmag, trigger 2 vines.
G2: -2 axe, -3 push, -2 decay, -1 allure || +3 grudge, +2 pithing needle, +3 thoughtseize.
cant recall much of the game but my opponent started slow, doesn't assembled tron lands at t3, thoughtseize get the job done and haven't able to cast the pithing needle to test it.
*a good and lucky start in the tournament
Round2 vs Puresteel Paladin Storm (2-0)
G1: Easy win, opponent tought i was playing a regular dredge deck due to my t1 play of looting discarding an imp, opponent plays an early paladin and plans to take off early only to be surprised by a fatal push.
G2: -2 gather the pack, -1 gurmag || +3 thoughtseize, another easy win.
*i think cheerios have a very minimal chance to win against this list
Round3 vs Merfolk (0-2)
Lost both games, it's my first time playing against this deck, spreading seas is a pain in the "A".
Round4 vs Abzan (2-0): i'm quite familiar with the gy hate cards in his deck since we have played multiple times in the past (he does have ooze, anafenza and kalitas in the main and RIP in SB).
G1: Another quick start with t1: looting > discard imp and vengevine, t2 dredge hitting a crawler cast gurmag and a crawler from graveyard trigger vine. cant remember his plays throughout the game but he did path my gurmag and was able to cast an ooze only to be answered by fatal push, in the end Gurmag and Lotleth troll win the game.
G2: -1 gather the pack, -1 gurmag, -1 neonate, -1 imp || +3 thoughtseize, +1 reclamation sage
opponent were able to cast ooze and anafenza but I was able to quickly handle both with my mainboard removals, the deck took off since then. Again Gurmag and Lotleth Troll win the game for me, it seems that my opponent doesn't have Dismember in his 75 and have problem removing those 2 creatures. He was really surprised to see that i'm playing fatal pushes.
the result might be due to catching my opponent of guard with more interaction cards mainboard but i think the list is flexible enough to handle multiple matchups.
i might change gather the pack back to grisly salvage, i dont want to be tapped out of mana at t2 while i have interaction cards in my hand, the instant speed of grisly salvage is really relevant to keep my mana open as long as possible. i might cut 1 of the salvage effect and add a golgari thug as additional dredger and toolbox for Gurmag Angler or Lotleth Troll if needed, those 2 creatures are resilient in today's fatal push meta.
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
i haven't played enough games with my new list, but i'm also considering a singleton boardwipe removal in my sideboard, i've played against Merfolk and BW tokens and i consider both of them to be a difficult matchup, i might use languish instead of damnation aside from budget, this wide decks doesn't have high toughness creatures and languish would be enough for them.
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
it is important that the removal should be at 1-cmc (except for abrupt) so that we can cast a removal spell and gather the pack or any salvage card at turn 3. I'm thinking about Abrupt Decay due to the mentioned reason, but it's flexibility might be enough for it to have a spot in my list.
what i really like with the midrange approach is that we may not over commit in dredging and draw actual cards once we have a resolved vengevine, lotleth troll or gurmag angler in the field and control the board from there.
I just added deadly allure for it's graveyard value and sometimes to force our opponent to block a recursive gravecrawler.
if in opening hand: sometimes i cast gravecrawler t1, attack with gravecrawler w/ allure t2 to force opponent to block.
i agree with you with salvage vs gather, instant speed is really important.
for deadly allure, for now it's in the deck but it may go and be swap for extra dredger: i may include extra golgari thug x2 in exchange for deadly allure and 1-salvage.
imo, discard is just for sideboard in this deck, putting it in maindeck will turn it to a fullblown midrange deck. i'd consider my list as an aggro-midrange
Overall I enjoy playing the deck a lot more. Definitely looking forward to seeing where the deck lands with Ahmonket. In the meantime I'm gonna try to figure out the best BUG mirror of that list. Seems like Hedron Crab swaps for Neonate okay, Axe isn't anything special but losing Looting has to be worth it for something. Anyway thanks for putting that up!