The problem is that the lack of a 1-drop creature decreases a lot our clock. Casting a 1-drop creature by turn 1 or 2 may represent more than 5 points of damage during the course of the game. I think even Nikachu isn't going to stick with his original list. Btw Rothgar13's list seems much more powerful imo (he already got four 5-0s in the current friendly league).
The problem is that the lack of a 1-drop creature decreases a lot our clock. Casting a 1-drop creature by turn 1 or 2 may represent more than 5 points of damage during the course of the game. I think even Nikachu isn't going to stick with his original list. Btw Rothgar13's list seems much more powerful imo (he already got four 5-0s in the current friendly league).
In at least one of his games I recall, Pierce over Catcher was the difference between winning and losing. Were there any that were the reverse?
It's harder to quantify the value of Cursecatcher because it acts as a passive deterent. Where Spell Pierce you can actually see the spell being countered, the tempo gain from Cursecatcher is less obvious as people play around the ability. It's sorta like a Thalia tax.
I'm not arguing for one over the other, but just because you don't see Cursecatcher "win you the game" doesn't mean its not putting in serious work.
It's harder to quantify the value of Cursecatcher because it acts as a passive deterent. Where Spell Pierce you can actually see the spell being countered, the tempo gain from Cursecatcher is less obvious as people play around the ability. It's sorta like a Thalia tax.
I'm not arguing for one over the other, but just because you don't see Cursecatcher "win you the game" doesn't mean its not putting in serious work.
But which is doing more work?
How many opponents, when they see you drop a blue land, aren't going to think you're likely to have a counter in your hand? And if you do end up countering, the card loss is exactly the same. No more body on the board (a barrier to your using it in the first place).
ETA, much after the fact: I'd rather get out a Vial turn 1 in most cases anyway, which obviates both the Pierce and the Catcher. Also, when it does end up being used, Pierce has another advantage over Catcher: it counters enchantments and non-critter artifacts where Catcher doesn't.
Holding off a board wipe or high impact spell for 1 extra turn while getting in an additional 3-5 pts of damage could be enough to win the game. Its also frequently a more efficient use of mana to play Cursecarcher early as opposed to holding up mana when we want to keep playing creatures.
Having a 2cmc creature with flash is a new element that at times allows us to do both.
Countering something like Ugin or Summoners Pact with Spell Pierce could also be back breaking.
I honestly havent made up my mind yet and am looking forward to hearing more results.
Well, I'm back on 32-Fish, since it's sure as heck consistent and beats the heck out of most creature-based decks in the format. I don't think the Architect-Ballista build is bad, but I wanted a return to normalcy.
That said, I've been messing around with the SB a lot. I'm on a Relic/Crypt split because some of the graveyard strategies need to be answered when you're tapped out, and what you deprive them of is well worth the card disadvantage. I'm also on Pierce because I think it has a lot of potential and, if it wasn't for the power of the school, it would be in the MB.
Any thoughts on this mix? I'm not sure if it's too soft to Eldrazi, or our nemeses: Affinity/Lantern. I notice Rothgar is back on Ceremonial Rejections. Any specific deck the reason for that?
Gonna go back to my main dunning point here, and then shut up about it...if you run counters MD you'll nearly always have the mana available to activate Relic, and it has that extra utility that Tormod's is missing. I'd rather run a little bit slower to have the insurance policy which is also likely to slow down my opponent.
The problem with Crypt is that it's low-impact; it doesn't turn Goyf into an 0/1, it doesn't deny Scavenging Ooze entirely, and it doesn't get to chip away at the graveyard before the big wipe to prevent Delve creatures or Search for Azcanta. Patching these weaknesses is well worth the extra mana spent.
As for Rejections... truth be told, the deck feels very strong against Eldrazi as it is. I mostly have them in there for Affinity/Lantern, and as a bonus hedge against Tron.
Alright, I'll try switching back to a more basic SB of 4 Relic, 4 Deprive, 3 Rejection, 2 Truth, 2 Sphere. I think that is a lot of good ammo versus a lot of troublesome decks. Pierce is probably better versus Storm, CoCo, and Control, but I think Affinity, Lantern, Eldrazi, and Tron are still likely more common overall.
What do you guys think about going back to Gut Shot SB? Humans is definatelly the deck to beat and Affinity and Elves are still our archenemies. I'm playing 2 Gut Shots in my sideboard and it's been doing VERY well (beyong my expectations rly).
What do you guys think about going back to Gut Shot SB? Humans is definatelly the deck to beat and Affinity and Elves are still our archenemies. I'm playing 2 Gut Shots in my sideboard and it's been doing VERY well (beyong my expectations rly).
I love Gut Shot. It hits a ton of targets. My problem has always been trying to make room for it.
My results with Merfolk have fallen in a hole again - maybe its time to bring back cursecatcher? Whats your current list @rothgar13?
This is my current list, and it's been working pretty well overall. I intend to test the maindeck Chalice list MHayashi has done well with next, but right now this is my default.
Hello playas, Humans player here. Since you have a good MU VS Humans, I'm wondering what keeps you from crushing tournaments ? And how does Trickster change anything in your experience ?
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I don't think we have good mu vs Humans. Flyers are a problem, high power pressure like multiple Champions into Liutenants can also outrace us.
The good thing is that by wanting to have good matchups across the board Humans also plays low powered Meddling Mages and Freebooters, so by playing them we have plenty of time to flood the board. And also, Image is easily killed on sight.
Trickster is good news because Mantis can lose flying now and it gives us chance to regain tempo.
But, if we ignore this mu, Trickster is good sign of things to come (Merfolk gaining cheap flash utility dudes is huge when we also play Pierce, Rejection and Deprive), new angle of attack and possible reaching Humans level of disruption in the future brings us optimism.
Champion and Liutenant have broken power level for their mana cost so we are always slower and worse option for taking down tournaments, that means less players will play Fish. It's just we don't care
I think our Humans matchup is good, but it's only slightly in our favor. There are Humans hands we definitely struggle to address, such as Noble into Mantis Rider when we don't have a Vial. I don't think it's so favorable that you'd run Merfolk out there as a Humans-killer, and the deck has a negative perception among certain stripes of the community, so only the devoted suit up with it. Most of us do pretty well, but there aren't enough of us to turn the tide, so to speak.
We've been discussing about the best 1 mana drop for our deck and Cursecatcher and Spell Pierce are clearly the common choices. Although I personally think we need a 1 drop creature (to improve our clock and board presence), whats ur thoughts about Chalice of the Void? I sometimes feel like we need some free wins and Chalice of the Void would give us that. Also modern is more than ever a high mana intensity format, flooded with 1 mana cards, which is the perfect environment for a turn 2 Chalice.
r1 vs U/B Tezzerator, 2-1
SB +3 echoing truth, -3 dismember
g1: he resolved Ensnaring Bridge so i scooped.
g2/3: he couldn't find bridge and got beat down.
r2 vs Gruul Aggro, 1-2
SB +4 spellskite, -4 dismember
g1: my vials and bigger creatures won.
g2/3: Destructive Revelry was good vs my vials/copters.
r3 vs Hallowed One, 1-2
SB +4 ravenous trap, -4 spreading seas
g1: i got a fast start and won.
g2/3: got ravenous trap discarded via thoughtseize/collective brutality. he even shattering spree'd a vial.
summary: fish seemed "too fair" today. merfolk is a tempo deck and while i did beat control, i still found my build underwhelming.
In at least one of his games I recall, Pierce over Catcher was the difference between winning and losing. Were there any that were the reverse?
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
I'm not arguing for one over the other, but just because you don't see Cursecatcher "win you the game" doesn't mean its not putting in serious work.
But which is doing more work?
How many opponents, when they see you drop a blue land, aren't going to think you're likely to have a counter in your hand? And if you do end up countering, the card loss is exactly the same. No more body on the board (a barrier to your using it in the first place).
ETA, much after the fact: I'd rather get out a Vial turn 1 in most cases anyway, which obviates both the Pierce and the Catcher. Also, when it does end up being used, Pierce has another advantage over Catcher: it counters enchantments and non-critter artifacts where Catcher doesn't.
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
Holding off a board wipe or high impact spell for 1 extra turn while getting in an additional 3-5 pts of damage could be enough to win the game. Its also frequently a more efficient use of mana to play Cursecarcher early as opposed to holding up mana when we want to keep playing creatures.
Having a 2cmc creature with flash is a new element that at times allows us to do both.
Countering something like Ugin or Summoners Pact with Spell Pierce could also be back breaking.
I honestly havent made up my mind yet and am looking forward to hearing more results.
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Master of Waves
4 Harbinger of the Tides
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Spreading Seas
Land
4 Mutavault
16 Island
Artifact
4 Aether Vial
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Deprive
2 Echoing Truth
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dismember
That said, I've been messing around with the SB a lot. I'm on a Relic/Crypt split because some of the graveyard strategies need to be answered when you're tapped out, and what you deprive them of is well worth the card disadvantage. I'm also on Pierce because I think it has a lot of potential and, if it wasn't for the power of the school, it would be in the MB.
Any thoughts on this mix? I'm not sure if it's too soft to Eldrazi, or our nemeses: Affinity/Lantern. I notice Rothgar is back on Ceremonial Rejections. Any specific deck the reason for that?
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
As for Rejections... truth be told, the deck feels very strong against Eldrazi as it is. I mostly have them in there for Affinity/Lantern, and as a bonus hedge against Tron.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Hence the suggestion.
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
UWx control/midrange
Bant Eldrazi
This is my current list, and it's been working pretty well overall. I intend to test the maindeck Chalice list MHayashi has done well with next, but right now this is my default.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
The good thing is that by wanting to have good matchups across the board Humans also plays low powered Meddling Mages and Freebooters, so by playing them we have plenty of time to flood the board. And also, Image is easily killed on sight.
Trickster is good news because Mantis can lose flying now and it gives us chance to regain tempo.
But, if we ignore this mu, Trickster is good sign of things to come (Merfolk gaining cheap flash utility dudes is huge when we also play Pierce, Rejection and Deprive), new angle of attack and possible reaching Humans level of disruption in the future brings us optimism.
Champion and Liutenant have broken power level for their mana cost so we are always slower and worse option for taking down tournaments, that means less players will play Fish. It's just we don't care
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
10 island
4 darkslick shores
4 mutavault
2 carven of souls
(20) creatures:
4 harbinger of the tides
4 lord of atlantis
4 master of the pearl trident
4 merfolk trickster (did almost no work)
4 silvergil adept
4 aether vial
4 dismember (not useful today)
4 smuggler's copter (pulled it's lbs today)
4 spell pierce (1st opponent didn't play around it and was surprised)
4 spreading seas
4 ravenous trap (trap = crap, vs hallowed one)
4 sea's claim (no e.tron or jund)
4 spellskite
3 echoing truth
r1 vs U/B Tezzerator, 2-1
SB +3 echoing truth, -3 dismember
g1: he resolved Ensnaring Bridge so i scooped.
g2/3: he couldn't find bridge and got beat down.
r2 vs Gruul Aggro, 1-2
SB +4 spellskite, -4 dismember
g1: my vials and bigger creatures won.
g2/3: Destructive Revelry was good vs my vials/copters.
r3 vs Hallowed One, 1-2
SB +4 ravenous trap, -4 spreading seas
g1: i got a fast start and won.
g2/3: got ravenous trap discarded via thoughtseize/collective brutality. he even shattering spree'd a vial.
summary: fish seemed "too fair" today. merfolk is a tempo deck and while i did beat control, i still found my build underwhelming.
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkfx2kA8gok&feature=emb_logo
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3RYiZJFCK0
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j18HlKybrm8&feature=emb_logo
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiAEzfAgpbI&t=1s
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vNr_4ubfMg&t=1s
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJcwpxraL-g&t=1s
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MyVNLVYNw&t=1s
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-M5ffoArnY&t=1s
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yQEBOPi_w&feature=emb_logo
extended - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpUB9zpyr4&feature=emb_logo