Personally, I’m struggling to find any reason to splash Green at all. It ruins our mana base. Mistbinder is, in my opinion, the only real playable green splash creature. The others just don’t seem like upgrades to me. The stock mono blue Merfolk list is so tight as it is, cutting things in favor of a 2/2 for 1 or an exploring Merfolk just doesn’t seem worth it to me.
I'd just like to announce that I've done some major updating to the primer to reflect the recent changes to the card pool in the last few months, in addition to updating the matchup guide. Take a look and let me know what you think!
EDIT: however, all this is quite theoretical. That's the reason why I would like to see the deck working. Mistbinder falls in the category of cards that do not address at all any of the problems merfolk face, but it can be moving the deck towards a better direction just by virtue of making it better at racing. It has become clear that the U/G deck is a bit more of a glass cannon: if it doesn't take the lead from the very beggining of the game, it will fall behind. That is by no means a problem in magic. There are plenty of decks that work in the same way.
You got a point and this addresses the issue of innovation in this deck because we all know what our deck is good at doing, and what not; and the thing is that we are falling behind as other tribes are getting some interaction we would wish for. What it will never change of this deck (and my personal favorite) is its stability. A consistent mana base, some good redundancy, strong sideboard plan, etc. makes this deck to be up there fighting all the changes the modern meta faces through the years. I like how magic mixes chess strategy with poker playing. With this deck, if you get the chess side (piloting the deck) correctly and some good poker day, you'll be having around the same results consistently, so you know what to expect.
I'd just like to announce that I've done some major updating to the primer to reflect the recent changes to the card pool in the last few months, in addition to updating the matchup guide. Take a look and let me know what you think!
Thanks, got some nice and detailed info like always. For my theory crafting contribution for UG fish in modern I'll be also be splashing for a while. I saw that you wrote that Kumena and Jungle Pioneer could be cards worth considering. Thoughts of trying a 20 land variant to have a 3 CMC end curve in tropical? I may start with that route to see what I get, I'll let you know.
Perhaps, though it won't be the first thing I test. I'm pretty set on testing Tropical Fish with 18 lands and 12 2-drop Lords, and only adjusting if that does not perform at the standard mono-U has set. I believe that version has the best chance of being fast enough to be considered a legitimate variant.
Lumbering Falls is no Mutavault but it does serve some of the same functions (and is immune to push/bolt/path). It's super expensive and CIPT; I can't imagine playing 4 but 2/2 split with Mutavault?
It also gets pumped by MoW! (OK, that's not a thing, especially in UG)
Essentially it provides one more solid 1-drop and another 2-drop lord. You're trading some stability and late-game for a more explosive start. One of the deck's issues is that it just isn't super fast. The green splash can help remedy this to a degree.
I personally haven't seen enough to convince me to splash green yet. Maybe time will tell, though.
What’s so great about green? Am I missing something?
Not really. I’m just going to kick the tires on it when Rivals releases, because I intend to buy all of those cards for Standard anyway. My expectations are rather low, but it is possible that lowering the curve and cutting the land count while maintaining a comparable level of beef makes the deck faster, which can in turn give Tropical Fish enough upside to be considered as a variant. Do I expect this to happen? Not really. Is it possible? Perhaps, and that’s enough motivation for some testing.
Without testing we wont no 'for sure' if G is worth it but the previous attempts at UG lists ended up on the cutting room floor (ie. they were poor).
Rivals does add 'something' to the card pool - but 100% GG merfolk will never work - I dont even know why ppl are suggesting it. Perhaps the UG Lord makes it into an aggro list but I would say that the chances of UG aggro merfolk deck being better then other aggro decks or Mono-U merfolk is very, very slim..
I'd just like to announce that I've done some major updating to the primer to reflect the recent changes to the card pool in the last few months, in addition to updating the matchup guide. Take a look and let me know what you think!
I've just played against a spicy humans deck playing Descendants' Path...
Anybody thinks this might be good as a 2 of or something like that? Nice synergy with the Explore from Branchwalker.
I get that it "doesn't do anything when you cast it", but being an enchantment it is likely to stick around for a couple of turns at least, and if we can handle that initial loss of tempo, the investment will be recovered soon I think, putting extra lands, vials, etc to the bottom or giving us free creatures, we'll draw gas a lot more consistenly. Thoughts?
The problem of taking 3 mana and doing nothing for a turn isn't good. I don't know that it's really unplayable: it actually seems pretty decent in grindy matchups, especially if you play Mutavault to get the activation following an opposing Wrath. I don't think it would make a Merfolk main deck, though.
I'd just like to announce that I've done some major updating to the primer to reflect the recent changes to the card pool in the last few months, in addition to updating the matchup guide. Take a look and let me know what you think!
Appreciated. I'll hopefully get around to taking a look later.
Without testing we wont no 'for sure' if G is worth it but the previous attempts at UG lists ended up on the cutting room floor (ie. they were poor).
Rivals does add 'something' to the card pool - but 100% GG merfolk will never work - I dont even know why ppl are suggesting it. Perhaps the UG Lord makes it into an aggro list but I would say that the chances of UG aggro merfolk deck being better then other aggro decks or Mono-U merfolk is very, very slim..
While I tend to agree that Merfolk costing GG or more are not going to make the cut, 100% certainty is a very silly thing to chuck around like that. I don't mean to single you out, but we as a community need to get better about expressing, "I'm deeply skeptical of this, but show me the proof and I'll buy into it."
Something I have been pondering recently: Would it be better to think about mono-blue as a tempo deck, and Simic as an aggro deck?
I think this is probably a good way to look at it, yes. Another might be to think of the Tropical variant as being "lower to the ground," while thinking of the Basic variant as having "more stability and finishing power."
I've also been curious about Jungleborn Pioneer thinking it could go well with Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca and CoCo. Would a 4/2 split between vials and CoCo with 30 creatures be functional? I'm doubtful but curious what others think. I hope Dominaria brings a useful U or U/g interactive spell which is what I think the deck needed more than another lord. That or a merfolk venser.
I'm pretty confident that CoCo can be used, especially once you're in the range of 26+ qualifying creatures. The fact that it hasn't worked so far hasn't dissuaded me, the card is so good and so flexible that I wonder if it just hasn't been misplayed (appreciating when to hold it for an EoT play, or when to drop it during your attack step to hopefully draw up more lords to punch through this turn). The question is whether it really competes with Vial, which I think it indirectly does. Vial allows you to run less land, but CoCo doesn't.
I'm honestly not sure. Anyone care to try with the new Tropical Fish?
I suppose Jadelight Ranger and Swift Warden both sinergize much better with a CoCo build. An argument can be made for Kumena as well. The issue I have with such build is that I believe merfolk would be one of the weakest shells for CoCo. When abzan runs CoCo, they are at a chance of hitting an infinite combo. When Elves runs CoCo, they are a chance of hitting tons of mana in an archdruid and a way to exploit in Ezuri. When merfolk runs it, what do we get? Value? A combat trick? Protection? Doesn't look like enough incentive in a format as merciless as modern to run CoCo in a deck just to durdle around.
Don't get me wrong. I believe CoCo might be excellent in particular matchups. It dodges IoK, it is another way to exploit the 3-cost merfolk, it can be game-winning in drawn-out games. I'm all for testing such a build. I'm not sure, however, that the correct way to approach it is to try to play with vial. Maybe it is worth it, maybe it is not. If I were to try a CoCo build I would probably forget the vials, probably add some number of Kiora's Followers and run 4xCoCo. If we're playing CoCo, let it be the best card in the deck. CoCo could be to a U/G build what Master of Waves is to the MonoU build: a consistent way to catch up from behind.
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If we're playing CoCo, let it be the best card in the deck. CoCo could be to a U/G build what Master of Waves is to the MonoU build: a consistent way to catch up from behind.
I fully agree. This is what I was thinking when I wrote it. It's a flexible card, but also a powerful finisher.
A bit light on the noncreature U and G sources for my taste. I think I'd jam a 2nd Breeding Pool over the 3rd Cavern of Souls. And why are you not running any Natural State?
As someone who has extensively tested CoCo variants, i tend to agree with Ashiok; great card, but wrong deck. Its decent "value", but doesn't offer the type of potential it does in other decks.
The other problem is it presents restrictions with regards to sideboarding. While other CoCo lists can often fall back on rotating other utility creatures such as Reclamation Sage, our toolbox is almost entirely reliant on non-creature spells. This presents serious synergistic complications when moving to game 2. The card most likely to be cut... is CoCo. Otherwise you are diluting your threat base and potential CoCo targets, non of which are "i win" cards anyway.
You also see the most effective lists tend to really commit, with cards such as EWitness to bring additional value.
I'm not sold on Simic. Ill test and wait for the data. But I'm fairly confident that CoCo is not a pancea.
I have looked at the new merfolk and I feel that Merfolk Mistbinder might be a nice addition to the deck and I'm probably going to test the following list after Rivals of Ixalan is released.
I have removed the 4x Merfolk Branchwalker because it is the most expendable creature in the deck. What do you think? Would you do it differently?
I may be wrong, but I feel like you want the full 4x of the one drops. Ug fish needs to be lower to the ground than the mono blue version or else it's just a worse version of the deck.
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I'd just like to announce that I've done some major updating to the primer to reflect the recent changes to the card pool in the last few months, in addition to updating the matchup guide. Take a look and let me know what you think!
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
You got a point and this addresses the issue of innovation in this deck because we all know what our deck is good at doing, and what not; and the thing is that we are falling behind as other tribes are getting some interaction we would wish for. What it will never change of this deck (and my personal favorite) is its stability. A consistent mana base, some good redundancy, strong sideboard plan, etc. makes this deck to be up there fighting all the changes the modern meta faces through the years. I like how magic mixes chess strategy with poker playing. With this deck, if you get the chess side (piloting the deck) correctly and some good poker day, you'll be having around the same results consistently, so you know what to expect.
Thanks, got some nice and detailed info like always. For my theory crafting contribution for UG fish in modern I'll be also be splashing for a while. I saw that you wrote that Kumena and Jungle Pioneer could be cards worth considering. Thoughts of trying a 20 land variant to have a 3 CMC end curve in tropical? I may start with that route to see what I get, I'll let you know.
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RGR/G EldraziX
UBlue MoonR
UU/W TronW
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
It also gets pumped by MoW! (OK, that's not a thing, especially in UG)
I personally haven't seen enough to convince me to splash green yet. Maybe time will tell, though.
Not really. I’m just going to kick the tires on it when Rivals releases, because I intend to buy all of those cards for Standard anyway. My expectations are rather low, but it is possible that lowering the curve and cutting the land count while maintaining a comparable level of beef makes the deck faster, which can in turn give Tropical Fish enough upside to be considered as a variant. Do I expect this to happen? Not really. Is it possible? Perhaps, and that’s enough motivation for some testing.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Rivals does add 'something' to the card pool - but 100% GG merfolk will never work - I dont even know why ppl are suggesting it. Perhaps the UG Lord makes it into an aggro list but I would say that the chances of UG aggro merfolk deck being better then other aggro decks or Mono-U merfolk is very, very slim..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Appreciate the update.
The problem of taking 3 mana and doing nothing for a turn isn't good. I don't know that it's really unplayable: it actually seems pretty decent in grindy matchups, especially if you play Mutavault to get the activation following an opposing Wrath. I don't think it would make a Merfolk main deck, though.
Appreciated. I'll hopefully get around to taking a look later.
While I tend to agree that Merfolk costing GG or more are not going to make the cut, 100% certainty is a very silly thing to chuck around like that. I don't mean to single you out, but we as a community need to get better about expressing, "I'm deeply skeptical of this, but show me the proof and I'll buy into it."
I think this is probably a good way to look at it, yes. Another might be to think of the Tropical variant as being "lower to the ground," while thinking of the Basic variant as having "more stability and finishing power."
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
3x Cursecatcher
4x Harbinger of the Tides
1x Jade Bearer
1x Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca
4x Kumena's Speaker
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
2x Merfolk Branchwalker
3x Merfolk Mistbinder
2x Merrow Reejerey
4x Silvergill Adept
3x Botanical Sanctum
2x Breeding Pool
3x Cavern of Souls
1x Flooded Strand
4x Island
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Mutavault
2x Polluted Delta
Artifact (4)
4x Aether Vial
Instant (2)
2x Spell Pierce
Enchantment (4)
4x Spreading Seas
3x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Dismember
2x Natural State
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Swift Warden
2x Unified Will
UG list I have been testing.
I've also been curious about Jungleborn Pioneer thinking it could go well with Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca and CoCo. Would a 4/2 split between vials and CoCo with 30 creatures be functional? I'm doubtful but curious what others think. I hope Dominaria brings a useful U or U/g interactive spell which is what I think the deck needed more than another lord. That or a merfolk venser.
I'm honestly not sure. Anyone care to try with the new Tropical Fish?
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Don't get me wrong. I believe CoCo might be excellent in particular matchups. It dodges IoK, it is another way to exploit the 3-cost merfolk, it can be game-winning in drawn-out games. I'm all for testing such a build. I'm not sure, however, that the correct way to approach it is to try to play with vial. Maybe it is worth it, maybe it is not. If I were to try a CoCo build I would probably forget the vials, probably add some number of Kiora's Followers and run 4xCoCo. If we're playing CoCo, let it be the best card in the deck. CoCo could be to a U/G build what Master of Waves is to the MonoU build: a consistent way to catch up from behind.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
On a side note a friend suggested as a joke to brew an Abzan fish deck. Boy that should be fun to brew.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I fully agree. This is what I was thinking when I wrote it. It's a flexible card, but also a powerful finisher.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
The other problem is it presents restrictions with regards to sideboarding. While other CoCo lists can often fall back on rotating other utility creatures such as Reclamation Sage, our toolbox is almost entirely reliant on non-creature spells. This presents serious synergistic complications when moving to game 2. The card most likely to be cut... is CoCo. Otherwise you are diluting your threat base and potential CoCo targets, non of which are "i win" cards anyway.
You also see the most effective lists tend to really commit, with cards such as EWitness to bring additional value.
I'm not sold on Simic. Ill test and wait for the data. But I'm fairly confident that CoCo is not a pancea.
I may be wrong, but I feel like you want the full 4x of the one drops. Ug fish needs to be lower to the ground than the mono blue version or else it's just a worse version of the deck.