It being played around is generally a win for you if it forces them to wait a turn to do the thing they wanted to do. The Sea's Claim example doesn't surprise me (Jund is not why you have Cursecatcher in the deck, and some players often choose to side them out in that matchup), but it doesn't speak to the greater metagame context. It's a 1-drop in an aggro deck that needs one, and has utility as a bonus. That's good enough to be part of the deck's core.
On a related note, you really should consider reading up on the context why these decisions were made. Most of your comments smack of relative inexperience, and while I don't like to dissuade people who are newer to the game or to the deck from speaking their opinions, you should at least come from an informed perspective or a position of humility. The fact that you questioned Frank Karsten's thoughts on Affinity when he's arguably one of the most accomplished players of that deck in the world was telling.
Yeah, just like I don't hold "pros" in high regard and as equals, I also don't hold your unflinching opinions on how to play Merfolks in high regard. If you played my merfolk deck variants you'd understand but chances are you won't. As a mod once said, primers is about discussing about deck ideas and also posting results from actual tests. You shoot down any alternate opinions in condescending tones without testing. So forgive me if I really take anything you say with a grain of salt.
When I first mentioned chalice of the void and phantasmal images, you jumped down my throat within the first few posts. A few weeks later, everyone is playing them. So don't talk to me about humility when you lack that virtue yourself.
so disagreeing with someone's opinion equates to inexperience and being uninformed. gotcha. you're not a Republican by chance are you?
also, re: reading up on context. that's what I've been doing and that's why I'm looking for peoples' opinions. yeah I don't know everything about the deck, there's a lot I don't know and that's why I'm talking about it. there is no need for you to be a dick about it.
I think he was referring to me. People are very protective of their own primers and try to hold a position of authority... on a deck that is widely played by many others...
Lol when someone started talking about CoCo in merfolk I wanted to make a joke about how "cursecatcher is secretly bad" was next on the merfolk thread cycle of beaten to death horses but I thought it was too harsh
Everyone please go ahead and splash white for path and green for coco and cut Cursecatchers for Cosi's Trickster, maybe add some Thassas and Skaab Ruinators while you're at it. I'm not gonna stop you
I....I really want to make Thassa happen....:/
Putting a singleton foil Thassa at the front of my deckbox does look really freakin' swag
It being played around is generally a win for you if it forces them to wait a turn to do the thing they wanted to do. The Sea's Claim example doesn't surprise me (Jund is not why you have Cursecatcher in the deck, and some players often choose to side them out in that matchup), but it doesn't speak to the greater metagame context. It's a 1-drop in an aggro deck that needs one, and has utility as a bonus. That's good enough to be part of the deck's core.
On a related note, you really should consider reading up on the context why these decisions were made. Most of your comments smack of relative inexperience, and while I don't like to dissuade people who are newer to the game or to the deck from speaking their opinions, you should at least come from an informed perspective or a position of humility. The fact that you questioned Frank Karsten's thoughts on Affinity when he's arguably one of the most accomplished players of that deck in the world was telling.
Yeah, just like I don't hold "pros" in high regard and as equals, I also don't hold your unflinching opinions on how to play Merfolks in high regard. If you played my merfolk deck variants you'd understand but chances are you won't. As a mod once said, primers is about discussing about deck ideas and also posting results from actual tests. You shoot down any alternate opinions in condescending tones without testing. So forgive me if I really take anything you say with a grain of salt.
When I first mentioned chalice of the void and phantasmal images, you jumped down my throat within the first few posts. A few weeks later, everyone is playing them. So don't talk to me about humility when you lack that virtue yourself.
This is demonstrably false, and frankly a bit unfair. Anyone who follows my posts on this thread knows that I have championed Chalice of the Void several times. In fact, I conducted a large match trial in the immediately pre-Oath metagame that was using it to great effect (behold). I haven't been much of a fan of Phantasmal Image overall, but there are metagames in which it is fantastic, and until the metagame became WU Eldrazi featuring tap effects (that pop Image for "free") and spot removal-heavy decks that make it not long for this world, it seemed like we were headed that way. As my last sentence obviously notes, that is no longer the case.
The point regarding not accepting alternate opinions is the one I'll push back against the strongest: I have long accepted that I will not hold the same opinions as others on this thread. In fact, CoBTyrannon and I occasionally crack a joke on how we never seem to agree (and he is another one who has called you out on your antics before, as evidenced here, so I guess we agree on that). As a matter of fact, Nikachu_ posted his decklist in the last page, with several different choices from what I had made in the course of preparing for this metagame. I noted those differences, then said I agree with the thought process behind the decisions that led up to them (link to my post here). Last but not least, I have his list up on the Sample Decklists section of the primer. If that's not consenting to alternate opinions, I don't know what is.
The difference between you and Nikachu_ is that when he posts an opinion, it's usually backed up by evidence in the way of a video that either shows him implementing the concept in play, or describes the results. Now, I don't expect you to start a YouTube channel just for that, as that is quite the hefty time and resources commitment. However, I do expect you to provide evidence when your claims diverge significantly from the consensus. Do that, or phrase your suggestions in a more speculative way, and you will be afforded deference. Until then, you're just a guy going against the grain for the giggles, and I'm trying to keep this primer nice and organized so that newer players have a solid base to go off, and more seasoned players can discuss their results and how to best craft the deck to handle the metagame. You're working at cross-purposes to my goal.
"Regarding the political angle... the first thing to note is that there's no reason to bring up that sort of thing on a Magic thread. I have made no statements that tip my inclination one way or the other. Secondly... hell no."
yeah it was more of a snide comment than an actual question.
but the last couple of pages of discussion on cursecatcher/cosi's trickster has been very helpful. it is now evident to me in several ways how playing w/ cursecatcher gives significant advantages that trickster doesn't.
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currently playing
(Modern)
RG RG Titanshift RG WUBR Affinity WUBR x Eldrazi Tron x UG Tropical Merfolk UG
Lol when someone started talking about CoCo in merfolk I wanted to make a joke about how "cursecatcher is secretly bad" was next on the merfolk thread cycle of beaten to death horses but I thought it was too harsh
Everyone please go ahead and splash white for path and green for coco and cut Cursecatchers for Cosi's Trickster, maybe add some Thassas and Skaab Ruinators while you're at it. I'm not gonna stop you
I....I really want to make Thassa happen....:/
Regarding Thassa I've never really liked it in Merfolk. It doesn't do what we want-it provides neither board presence, ca and isn't lord. It gives us card selection but I don't think she's good enough.
I would honestly not require people to provide evidence of their testing or gameplay for adding to discussion, for any reason.
That being said, if you come into a thread, say something controversial, and have nothing to back it up, then when everyone disagrees with you, call them out personally, you aren't adding a whole lot to discussion.
You don't have to respect anyone here, but if you come on here as an ********, you aren't really adding to discussion. Past that, you could truly be the most brilliant person here, but if none of us (or none of anyone) respect you, your brilliance has lost some of its luster.
To be fair here, if eveything Rothgar posts it so be believed, he does test a lot. Much of his posts don't have new results because not enough has changed. Cursecatcher, for example, is still a good card. It was 3 months ago. Not enough has changed since then to suddenly make cursecatcher dumpster tiered.
As for Chalice, at least, go run a search on the previous thread, and I'm sure you'll find most of us, Rothgar included, have found chalice an acceptable card. The problem is that some eldrazi decks play it, so playing it against them isn't going to get you very far.
I'm kind of surprised why you even come on here to post. You're clearly not looking for discussion, or to improve.
Cards like Thassa, CoCo, Skaab, etc are all playable to some extent in merfolk. If you know the meta you expect to see, its not unreasonable to play them. That being said, none of them are powerful enough to bring to a major tournament if you can't accurately predict the meta.
To be honest... a Thassa, God of the Sea 1-of out of the sideboard intrigues me in this metagame. Keeping it switched on could prove tricky with all of the sweepers running around, but she has game against control and midrange (by enabling better topdecks as well as a beater that sort-of survives a Damnation or a Supreme Verdict). Furthermore, she can be good as a way to stonewall a Reality Smasher. I'll put that in my testing ledger for the coming weeks.
From what I've been hearing from really experienced players, authors and analysts and stuff, this deck is becoming more and more well-positioned in the format, especially with the printing of Harbinger of the Tides. I've been a fan of this deck for a long time and I'm glad to see it doing well, can't wait to get everything I need, get sleeved up and start playing w/ it.
also, Aether Vial (Darksteel) has been some of my favorite art since it was printed. would you be able to post a pic of your playmat? (Really hoping it's Darksteel art but I doubt it is.)
and also, congrats on your win!!!
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currently playing
(Modern)
RG RG Titanshift RG WUBR Affinity WUBR x Eldrazi Tron x UG Tropical Merfolk UG
Just won GP Trial at Bologna. 32-man single elimination. Won Naya something, UW Eldrazi x2, Mardu Midrange and Jund. In finals at game 3 I mulliganed to 4 at play and still somehow managed to won and get the Aether Vial playmat. See you tomorrow! Sorry for the typos and bad language, long day behind.
Good job! Also, Æther Vial on a playmat sounds delightful (probably a huge tell that you're on Merfolk, but I think I'd allow it). Any notes on how the WU Eldrazi matchups went and how you sideboarded? I've been doing all right for myself against them, but it's always useful to compare notes.
GP Costa Rica in ~2012 gave out a Steve Argyle playmat with 3 Merfolk on it. I proudly play it with fish at every non-competitive Modern event I go to. I drew the line at regionals, went with a Siege Rhino playmat.
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YMTC: We need a spikey red enchantment. My creations:
RR
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
The problem I've always had with Skaab Ruinator is the difficulty we have with a conventional casting. I don't like ticking my Æther Vial up to 3 unless I absolutely have to, and it pushes me in that direction. I also feel that unless we are facing a very removal-heavy opponent, we won't cast it conventionally. I feel that's too many "if"s for me.
I have a theoretical question about merfolk one-drop. Let's assume that I can run any number of a perfect but still somewhat reasonable one-drop (for example, a 1/1 with the combination of Triton Shorestalker, Cursecatcher and Cosi's Trickster card texts). How many would you run?
Personally, I would run 4-6 of them due to the limited flex slots in the deck and being a 1/1 means that it needs other merfolk lords in order to due significant damage. How many would you guys run?
I would run 4 1 drops- a playset of Cursecatcher and no other 1 drops. He's great in our deck, helps us against removal, it requires our opponent to play around it which makes them loses a tempo, helps us tremendously against combo. He's simply the best 1 drop we have access to and I don't think I want any other 1 drops in my Merfolk deck.
Maybe I didn't phase my question correctly. What I meant was if you have a choice, how many copies of this card would you run (from 1 to, say, 60):
Atlantis Servant U
Merfolk 1/1
~ is unblockable
Sac ~: counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pay 1
Whenever an opponent shuffle his/her library, put +1/+1 counter on ~
Clearly you would run this over cursecatcher. I would like to ask how many copies would you run (a theoretical question, so no maximum number)
Yeah, still 4 copies. It'd make our deck a little better in the early game (and a bit less reliant on Seas, since at least one attacker would get in for steady damage). We still need all of our bigger guys for the Servant of Atlantis to reach its potential.
I took first place in an 8-man Legacy tournament last night with Merfolk. Had some proxies and such. Beat Miracles, Bug Delver, and a bad brew.
Force of Will makes this deck feel so smooth. Good hell. I really REALLY wish WOTC would just print FOW in a Modern legal set and give this format access to it. It is such a great police card.
The question I have in relation to Modern, is why does Legacy Fish not run Spreading Seas effects and Modern always does? Is it mainly due to True-Name Nemesis? I am NOT advocating taking out Spreading Seas obviously, it is essential. Just asking.
Anyway, sorry to go off topic. I just got a taste of how powerful Fish can really be and it was intoxicating.
I don't think Spreading Seas is run for a couple reasons. You get to run cards like FoW, Daze, Jitte, and TNN which are arguably more powerful, and something needs to be cut. But the biggest reason is that you can run Wasteland which is so much more disruptive than spreading seas. The island walk bonus from Seas is a plus, but the primary reason for Seas in modern is mana base disruption.
Yeah, just like I don't hold "pros" in high regard and as equals, I also don't hold your unflinching opinions on how to play Merfolks in high regard. If you played my merfolk deck variants you'd understand but chances are you won't. As a mod once said, primers is about discussing about deck ideas and also posting results from actual tests. You shoot down any alternate opinions in condescending tones without testing. So forgive me if I really take anything you say with a grain of salt.
When I first mentioned chalice of the void and phantasmal images, you jumped down my throat within the first few posts. A few weeks later, everyone is playing them. So don't talk to me about humility when you lack that virtue yourself.
I think he was referring to me. People are very protective of their own primers and try to hold a position of authority... on a deck that is widely played by many others...
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Putting a singleton foil Thassa at the front of my deckbox does look really freakin' swag
This is demonstrably false, and frankly a bit unfair. Anyone who follows my posts on this thread knows that I have championed Chalice of the Void several times. In fact, I conducted a large match trial in the immediately pre-Oath metagame that was using it to great effect (behold). I haven't been much of a fan of Phantasmal Image overall, but there are metagames in which it is fantastic, and until the metagame became WU Eldrazi featuring tap effects (that pop Image for "free") and spot removal-heavy decks that make it not long for this world, it seemed like we were headed that way. As my last sentence obviously notes, that is no longer the case.
The point regarding not accepting alternate opinions is the one I'll push back against the strongest: I have long accepted that I will not hold the same opinions as others on this thread. In fact, CoBTyrannon and I occasionally crack a joke on how we never seem to agree (and he is another one who has called you out on your antics before, as evidenced here, so I guess we agree on that). As a matter of fact, Nikachu_ posted his decklist in the last page, with several different choices from what I had made in the course of preparing for this metagame. I noted those differences, then said I agree with the thought process behind the decisions that led up to them (link to my post here). Last but not least, I have his list up on the Sample Decklists section of the primer. If that's not consenting to alternate opinions, I don't know what is.
The difference between you and Nikachu_ is that when he posts an opinion, it's usually backed up by evidence in the way of a video that either shows him implementing the concept in play, or describes the results. Now, I don't expect you to start a YouTube channel just for that, as that is quite the hefty time and resources commitment. However, I do expect you to provide evidence when your claims diverge significantly from the consensus. Do that, or phrase your suggestions in a more speculative way, and you will be afforded deference. Until then, you're just a guy going against the grain for the giggles, and I'm trying to keep this primer nice and organized so that newer players have a solid base to go off, and more seasoned players can discuss their results and how to best craft the deck to handle the metagame. You're working at cross-purposes to my goal.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
yeah it was more of a snide comment than an actual question.
but the last couple of pages of discussion on cursecatcher/cosi's trickster has been very helpful. it is now evident to me in several ways how playing w/ cursecatcher gives significant advantages that trickster doesn't.
(Modern)
RG RG Titanshift RG
WUBR Affinity WUBR
x Eldrazi Tron x
UG Tropical Merfolk UG
(Pauper)
G Elves G
WURG Affinity WURG
Yeah...but she's neat...
That being said, if you come into a thread, say something controversial, and have nothing to back it up, then when everyone disagrees with you, call them out personally, you aren't adding a whole lot to discussion.
You don't have to respect anyone here, but if you come on here as an ********, you aren't really adding to discussion. Past that, you could truly be the most brilliant person here, but if none of us (or none of anyone) respect you, your brilliance has lost some of its luster.
To be fair here, if eveything Rothgar posts it so be believed, he does test a lot. Much of his posts don't have new results because not enough has changed. Cursecatcher, for example, is still a good card. It was 3 months ago. Not enough has changed since then to suddenly make cursecatcher dumpster tiered.
As for Chalice, at least, go run a search on the previous thread, and I'm sure you'll find most of us, Rothgar included, have found chalice an acceptable card. The problem is that some eldrazi decks play it, so playing it against them isn't going to get you very far.
I'm kind of surprised why you even come on here to post. You're clearly not looking for discussion, or to improve.
Cards like Thassa, CoCo, Skaab, etc are all playable to some extent in merfolk. If you know the meta you expect to see, its not unreasonable to play them. That being said, none of them are powerful enough to bring to a major tournament if you can't accurately predict the meta.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
UM WHAT
From what I've been hearing from really experienced players, authors and analysts and stuff, this deck is becoming more and more well-positioned in the format, especially with the printing of Harbinger of the Tides. I've been a fan of this deck for a long time and I'm glad to see it doing well, can't wait to get everything I need, get sleeved up and start playing w/ it.
also, Aether Vial (Darksteel) has been some of my favorite art since it was printed. would you be able to post a pic of your playmat? (Really hoping it's Darksteel art but I doubt it is.)
and also, congrats on your win!!!
(Modern)
RG RG Titanshift RG
WUBR Affinity WUBR
x Eldrazi Tron x
UG Tropical Merfolk UG
(Pauper)
G Elves G
WURG Affinity WURG
Good job! Also, Æther Vial on a playmat sounds delightful (probably a huge tell that you're on Merfolk, but I think I'd allow it). Any notes on how the WU Eldrazi matchups went and how you sideboarded? I've been doing all right for myself against them, but it's always useful to compare notes.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
Fires Rf Salvation
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I have a theoretical question about merfolk one-drop. Let's assume that I can run any number of a perfect but still somewhat reasonable one-drop (for example, a 1/1 with the combination of Triton Shorestalker, Cursecatcher and Cosi's Trickster card texts). How many would you run?
Personally, I would run 4-6 of them due to the limited flex slots in the deck and being a 1/1 means that it needs other merfolk lords in order to due significant damage. How many would you guys run?
Thank you
UMerfolkU
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wxXtmjT0T1o3dcgqpJWkKNqcfkIobksJFA2rkK7Gf9o/edit?usp=sharing
Maybe I didn't phase my question correctly. What I meant was if you have a choice, how many copies of this card would you run (from 1 to, say, 60):
Atlantis Servant U
Merfolk 1/1
~ is unblockable
Sac ~: counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pay 1
Whenever an opponent shuffle his/her library, put +1/+1 counter on ~
Clearly you would run this over cursecatcher. I would like to ask how many copies would you run (a theoretical question, so no maximum number)
UMerfolkU
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wxXtmjT0T1o3dcgqpJWkKNqcfkIobksJFA2rkK7Gf9o/edit?usp=sharing
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I took first place in an 8-man Legacy tournament last night with Merfolk. Had some proxies and such. Beat Miracles, Bug Delver, and a bad brew.
Force of Will makes this deck feel so smooth. Good hell. I really REALLY wish WOTC would just print FOW in a Modern legal set and give this format access to it. It is such a great police card.
The question I have in relation to Modern, is why does Legacy Fish not run Spreading Seas effects and Modern always does? Is it mainly due to True-Name Nemesis? I am NOT advocating taking out Spreading Seas obviously, it is essential. Just asking.
Anyway, sorry to go off topic. I just got a taste of how powerful Fish can really be and it was intoxicating.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG