You guys go way overboard.
Even as a MonoU-Player i have to admit, that the UW Version is fully viable and in fact Metadependant.
Massacring the manabase is a joke. The manabase is worse, but the margin is ridiculously small.
It's not just Affinity that gets hated out more. It hits a lot more decks. Path used in the right way is very good. And as we know, Dismember can be really bad too.
The Player has to play both Spells right to not suffer too much from their downsides.
The whitesplash gives us 3 important features, that we don't have in Monoblue: Lifegain, Artifact and Enchantmenthate and removal.
Additionally it provides us with some fringe but powerful enchantments.
If your Meta demands those things, you are probably better off playing UW splash.
Perhaps massacre is too strong but 'ridiculously small' is also far from reality - it is substantial - our burn/aggro matchups are on a knife-edge as it is - making your mana base worse is a big problem and I stand by that. Furthermore Seachrome coming in tapped is a big deal - its not ridiculously small. Outside of Affinity what artifacts/enchantments are you worried about - white doesnt solve any problems other than affinity.
It definitely is substantial. You're trading points against Affinity for points against the field, and unless you're only playing Affinity players 2 out of every 4 rounds, that's just not a good trade. As popular as Affinity is, it's still hovering below 10% of the meta. Now, local metas have small sample size effects skewing things, but by and large I am going to recommend against WU, especially when Harbinger of the Tides has come in to give us a fighting chance as mono-U anyway.
What other matchup? Tron? You can bury Tron with Chalice of the Void, Spreading Seas, and Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge, you don't need W for anything. Ditto for Living End and Storm (Chalice and Relic of Progenitus do the job against them). Eldrazi? The most important pieces of disruption in this matchup are the same as in Tron. So tell me, which other matchup gets appreciably better? It's not BGX, it's not Kiki-Chord, and it's definitely not any aggro deck. I think splashing W in any circumstance other than an Affinity infestation is a waste of time, and I will think so until I get real data (in the way of high-placing results) to prove otherwise.
In other news, ModernNexus has updated its tier listings, so I'll (finally) be updating the sideboarding guide.
Everytime someone mentions white splash, we do this song and dance. Boring...
How about changing subject to something more fun, like how many people will play Merfolk at PT?
Will Paul Rietzl try again or run scared of artifacts?
When Wizards present playable decks in the coverage, how long will it take to mention Merfolk?
When they do, is it going to be in tier1 or tier2 category?
Do you expect a name pro, who had nothing with Merfolk before, to try and surprise the field?
I can try.
Of 490 players, 10 Merfolk decks.
Scared.
7 other decks before Merfolk. Tier2.
Nope, but I expect at least one name pro who previously dabbled with it.
I'm thinking 15-20 Merfolk decks, and I don't expect Paul Rietzl to be among them. I think there will be at least 8 other decks mentioned before Merfolk, and I think they'll talk about us as a Tier 2 deck. I definitely expect at least one big-name pro to take it out for a spin - whether that pro's brought the deck to major events before or not I can't say (I don't follow that many pros).
I'm thinking 15-20 Merfolk decks, and I don't expect Paul Rietzl to be among them. I think there will be at least 8 other decks mentioned before Merfolk, and I think they'll talk about us as a Tier 2 deck. I definitely expect at least one big-name pro to take it out for a spin - whether that pro's brought the deck to major events before or not I can't say (I don't follow that many pros).
Well merfolk is a tier 2 deck but it is a tier 2 deck that has taken down GP level events and had more than a few GP top 8. They will probably used the words "well established".
Just wanted to let you know that the sideboarding guide is now up-to-date with what Modern Nexus has deemed its "tiered" decks, plus a choice few others. Let me know what you guys think!
Any body ever run Thassa before? im thinking bout throwing her in my deck to test her out. Seems like she could become a creature fast now and scrying is always nice
Otec, most don't play with Thassa...while she could be a killer (especially if she gave herself unblockable), and her scry ability was nifty, she was sort of awkward as a late game draw, with path to exile around her indestructibility was sort of a non issue, and we, if we're curving right, are already swinging 4/4s or 5/5s unblockable anyways.
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"I hope to have such a death—lying in triumph upon the broken bodies of those who slew me."
—Radha, Keldon warlord
Would acquitect's will fit in this deck as a replacement for spreading seas? I like it more because enchantments are easier to remove than counters and it is only 1 mana.
Just wanted to let you know that the sideboarding guide is now up-to-date with what Modern Nexus has deemed its "tiered" decks, plus a choice few others. Let me know what you guys think!
Thanks Rothgar!!!
Your devotion to Merfolk is greatly appreciated by this fledgling guppy!
"Just keep swimming!" ~Dori
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"What doesn't grow, dies. And what dies grows the Tarmogoyf."
Current Decks: Modern: BRG Jund BRG Legacy: UBG BUG UBG
Otec, most don't play with Thassa...while she could be a killer (especially if she gave herself unblockable), and her scry ability was nifty, she was sort of awkward as a late game draw, with path to exile around her indestructibility was sort of a non issue, and we, if we're curving right, are already swinging 4/4s or 5/5s unblockable anyways.
A large portion of the utility of Spreading Seas is cutting people off mana. Island walk is great as well, but usually not as important as cutting people off mana. Aquitect's Will would be almost useless against everyone except creature decks where the island walk is the important part.
Would acquitect's will fit in this deck as a replacement for spreading seas? I like it more because enchantments are easier to remove than counters and it is only 1 mana.
that card is dangerous. doesn't screw their mana or give you devotion and the tribal type just gives your jund players an uber-goyf
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Modern U Merfolk U WUBRGPeopleGRBUW U Turbo Turns U UB Fae BU WBG Aristocrats GBW
Played against
Zoo 2-0 (kept 7, 7)
Jund 2-0 (kept 6, 6)
Temur Delver 2-0 (kept 6, 7)
BW Eldrazi 2-0 (kept 6, 7)
Affinity 2-0 (kept 7, 7)
I played 19 lands quite a bit a while ago and had to go back to 20 due to way too many mulligans. I kept track of my mulls this time and am still pretty disappointed by how hard it is to draw a good 7. It worked out however this time. I will test this further.
Echoing truth in the main has been SUPER impressive. Bounced multiple Goyfs and 6 spirit tokens.
1 of Sea's Claim feels awesome. I've tinkered with 8 seas a bit and been annoyed at how much real estate it takes up, but 5 seas felt great. Will definitely be testing this more.
I think it's going to be important going forward to not just fold to Affinity anymore. I don't think this matchup is nearly as bad as everyone thinks it is anymore. Sometimes they are just going to wreck you but we do have tools to be competitive in this match and some more room to play around with our sideboard with Twin out of the picture. A lot of people write off Hurkyl's Recall as only being good against Affinity but it is also a necessary tool to be able to beat Lantern Control. I have also been bringing in 2 of them against hate-bears. Bouncing their Vials can really mess up their plans.
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Modern U Merfolk U WUBRGPeopleGRBUW U Turbo Turns U UB Fae BU WBG Aristocrats GBW
Played against
Zoo 2-0 (kept 7, 7)
Jund 2-0 (kept 6, 6)
Temur Delver 2-0 (kept 6, 7)
BW Eldrazi 2-0 (kept 6, 7)
Affinity 2-0 (kept 7, 7)
I played 19 lands quite a bit a while ago and had to go back to 20 due to way too many mulligans. I kept track of my mulls this time and am still pretty disappointed by how hard it is to draw a good 7. It worked out however this time. I will test this further.
Echoing truth in the main has been SUPER impressive. Bounced multiple Goyfs and 6 spirit tokens.
1 of Sea's Claim feels awesome. I've tinkered with 8 seas a bit and been annoyed at how much real estate it takes up, but 5 seas felt great. Will definitely be testing this more.
I think it's going to be important going forward to not just fold to Affinity anymore. I don't think this matchup is nearly as bad as everyone thinks it is anymore. Sometimes they are just going to wreck you but we do have tools to be competitive in this match and some more room to play around with our sideboard with Twin out of the picture. A lot of people write off Hurkyl's Recall as only being good against Affinity but it is also a necessary tool to be able to beat Lantern Control. I have also been bringing in 2 of them against hate-bears. Bouncing their Vials can really mess up their plans.
Awesome list and results! Love the 4 of Harbinger in the main and 4 Tidebinder in the side! How was it playing with that many Tidebinders though? Did you miss Dismember at all? At this point I agree that echoing truth may be better but did you ever miss having Dismember in the board?
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Modern UMerfolk WDeath and Taxes BRBliztkrieg GStompy
- - -
"Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine."
-Scissors
Great effort man, i think that a lot of people appriciate your sb guides and doing them once a month instead of just Before an GP is great. My self i will try too play the Modo Modern PPTQ this and the next weekend, i can see that you play mostly in the League online, do you have any plans to play a Little more competitve in the PPTQ the two next weekends? Would be nice to not be the only fish in sea. Anyway i am practcing with playing in the League aswell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hEo1JM_YJs
I would love to play the competitive stuff on the weekends. Honestly I just never know when they start. Perhaps I'll take the time to research it.
I get it that Cursecatcher is a pretty dead card vs Abzan past turn 5 but it still is a 1 drop in the face of a Liliana, meaning that when you're on the draw and you take out nearly all your one-drops (Vial / Catcher) you
a) don't have a lot to do turn 1 versus a deck that likes to trade one-for one.
b) you may have your first threat edicted by a Liliana.
Also, I think Lingering Souls is one of their best cards against us and it still delays it. I might take out a few, but definitely not all for those reasons.
When you get Zealous Persecuted and lose Cursecatcher + Silvergill Adept/Master of Waves, you'll see my point of view. He just gets run under the bus by too much of the Abzan deck. Having high impact late game cards is important as well in this match because they can be presenting a serious clock with Lingering Souls or Siege Rhino.
As for Lingering Souls I find it pretty bad against us. We have bigger creatures so they will be just chump blockers most of the time (this will delay the game a bit but I don't think it's worth) and with Spreading Seas we have islandwalk available and when we do we don't care about Souls and we also should be able to win the race against them with reasonable clock.
Unless we play with Kira, Lingering Souls is a 4/4 unblockable flier that doesn't die to Dismember. It's a very serious threat.
Eldrazi and Negate:
Usually the deck runs around 21+ noncreaturespell, which sounds like a lot.
Out of those however we have:
4 Relics
6+ IoK/TS
2+ Removals for cmc2 or less
That means we are left with around 9 cards, that trade favourably with negate. I think this is quite narrow. Completely disregarding the fact that most of the time you end up countering a Discardspell to save your hand making a net loss in mana. If Dispel is too narrow for you, how come, Negate isn't in this matchup?
List of the spells i have seen:
cmc2- removal:
Dismember/Go for the throat/Path/Disfigure
Rest
Lingering Souls
Timely Reinforcements
Flaying Tendrils/Drown in Sorrow
All is Dust
Expedition Map
Vampiric Link
Slaughter Pact
Heartless Summoning
Night of Souls Betrayal
Scrabbling Claws
Mind Stone
Like I said, I was completely open to running Negate vs Jund. Plus playtesting can prove Dispel useful too. Having quality creatures on the board and protecting them I think are much more important in the Eldrazi Match up. Their threats are far more serious than say Tarmogoyf or Scavenging Ooze which we have a lot of answers for. Worst case scenario we can trade Negate for any 1 of the 31 non-creature spells they have in their deck (like relic of progenitus), we cannot do the same with Dispel vs Jund.
If by doing well you mean fail miserably. I think Game 1 is a perfect example of why I don't play Siege and if I do, I just choose Khans vs an attrition based deck so I can out-grind their removal. All they have to do is play lands and kill the creatures off anyway. Motown had a very good hand and it lost anyway. The star of the show was Chalice on 1 obviously.
Just wanted to let you know that the sideboarding guide is now up-to-date with what Modern Nexus has deemed its "tiered" decks, plus a choice few others. Let me know what you guys think!
Would acquitect's will fit in this deck as a replacement for spreading seas? I like it more because enchantments are easier to remove than counters and it is only 1 mana.
It turns lands into islands in addition to it's type. So it can't mana screw people which is the problem.
I think it's going to be important going forward to not just fold to Affinity anymore. I don't think this matchup is nearly as bad as everyone thinks it is anymore. Sometimes they are just going to wreck you but we do have tools to be competitive in this match and some more room to play around with our sideboard with Twin out of the picture. A lot of people write off Hurkyl's Recall as only being good against Affinity but it is also a necessary tool to be able to beat Lantern Control. I have also been bringing in 2 of them against hate-bears. Bouncing their Vials can really mess up their plans.
Everyone thinks this when they win a match vs Affinity. Long run I think everyone returns to earth and realizes this match up is terrible anyway. You could make the argument that most of the affinity opponents you play against are terrible and are vulnerable to Hurkyl's Recall, but Merfolk's success in large tournaments has consistently been because they avoided the match up entirely. That being said, I'm not hating Hurkyl's Recall right now, It's better than it's ever been in the past.
Awesome list and results! Love the 4 of Harbinger in the main and 4 Tidebinder in the side! How was it playing with that many Tidebinders though? Did you miss Dismember at all? At this point I agree that echoing truth may be better but did you ever miss having Dismember in the board?
4 tidebinders was pretty great but that might be because i played against 3 green decks. i haven't really found myself wishing i had dismembers. between echoing truths, harbingers, and tidebinders i haven't really had trouble getting stuff out of the way. usually 1 or 2 of these effects buys you enough time to win the game with a list running so many creatures. i liked dismember a lot more when i was using it to kill Deceiver Exarchs
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Modern U Merfolk U WUBRGPeopleGRBUW U Turbo Turns U UB Fae BU WBG Aristocrats GBW
I expect at least Hunter Nance to make a showing, he has been loyal to merfolk for awhile and typically does well. We at least have him in the States, he even played Merfolk in the SCG Player's Championship thing.
I like Thassa and keep wanting to run her, at least for the scry and unblockable but I can't bring myself to take out a Kira or a MoW for a 1 of. Sometimes in lesser competitive events I'll put her in just for fun, but not for something serious.
I expect Regionals will be shaping the meta for awhile especially if nothing interesting happens in the Pro Tour, like if Affinity wins again
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
It definitely is substantial. You're trading points against Affinity for points against the field, and unless you're only playing Affinity players 2 out of every 4 rounds, that's just not a good trade. As popular as Affinity is, it's still hovering below 10% of the meta. Now, local metas have small sample size effects skewing things, but by and large I am going to recommend against WU, especially when Harbinger of the Tides has come in to give us a fighting chance as mono-U anyway.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
In other news, ModernNexus has updated its tier listings, so I'll (finally) be updating the sideboarding guide.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
How about changing subject to something more fun, like how many people will play Merfolk at PT?
Will Paul Rietzl try again or run scared of artifacts?
When Wizards present playable decks in the coverage, how long will it take to mention Merfolk?
When they do, is it going to be in tier1 or tier2 category?
Do you expect a name pro, who had nothing with Merfolk before, to try and surprise the field?
I can try.
Of 490 players, 10 Merfolk decks.
Scared.
7 other decks before Merfolk. Tier2.
Nope, but I expect at least one name pro who previously dabbled with it.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Well merfolk is a tier 2 deck but it is a tier 2 deck that has taken down GP level events and had more than a few GP top 8. They will probably used the words "well established".
Just wanted to let you know that the sideboarding guide is now up-to-date with what Modern Nexus has deemed its "tiered" decks, plus a choice few others. Let me know what you guys think!
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
—Radha, Keldon warlord
Thanks Rothgar!!!
Your devotion to Merfolk is greatly appreciated by this fledgling guppy!
"Just keep swimming!" ~Dori
Current Decks:
Modern: BRG Jund BRG
Legacy: UBG BUG UBG
i can see that. Thanks for the input
that card is dangerous. doesn't screw their mana or give you devotion and the tribal type just gives your jund players an uber-goyf
U Merfolk U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Harbinger of the Tides
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Master of Waves
Spells (11)
1 Sea's Claim
4 Aether Vial
4 Spreading Seas
2 Echoing Truth
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Wanderwine Hub
9 Island
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Dispel
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Unified Will
4 Tidebinder Mage
Played against
Zoo 2-0 (kept 7, 7)
Jund 2-0 (kept 6, 6)
Temur Delver 2-0 (kept 6, 7)
BW Eldrazi 2-0 (kept 6, 7)
Affinity 2-0 (kept 7, 7)
I played 19 lands quite a bit a while ago and had to go back to 20 due to way too many mulligans. I kept track of my mulls this time and am still pretty disappointed by how hard it is to draw a good 7. It worked out however this time. I will test this further.
Echoing truth in the main has been SUPER impressive. Bounced multiple Goyfs and 6 spirit tokens.
1 of Sea's Claim feels awesome. I've tinkered with 8 seas a bit and been annoyed at how much real estate it takes up, but 5 seas felt great. Will definitely be testing this more.
I think it's going to be important going forward to not just fold to Affinity anymore. I don't think this matchup is nearly as bad as everyone thinks it is anymore. Sometimes they are just going to wreck you but we do have tools to be competitive in this match and some more room to play around with our sideboard with Twin out of the picture. A lot of people write off Hurkyl's Recall as only being good against Affinity but it is also a necessary tool to be able to beat Lantern Control. I have also been bringing in 2 of them against hate-bears. Bouncing their Vials can really mess up their plans.
U Merfolk U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
Awesome list and results! Love the 4 of Harbinger in the main and 4 Tidebinder in the side! How was it playing with that many Tidebinders though? Did you miss Dismember at all? At this point I agree that echoing truth may be better but did you ever miss having Dismember in the board?
UMerfolk
WDeath and Taxes
BRBliztkrieg
GStompy
- - -
"Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine."
-Scissors
When you get Zealous Persecuted and lose Cursecatcher + Silvergill Adept/Master of Waves, you'll see my point of view. He just gets run under the bus by too much of the Abzan deck. Having high impact late game cards is important as well in this match because they can be presenting a serious clock with Lingering Souls or Siege Rhino.
Unless we play with Kira, Lingering Souls is a 4/4 unblockable flier that doesn't die to Dismember. It's a very serious threat.
Like I said, I was completely open to running Negate vs Jund. Plus playtesting can prove Dispel useful too. Having quality creatures on the board and protecting them I think are much more important in the Eldrazi Match up. Their threats are far more serious than say Tarmogoyf or Scavenging Ooze which we have a lot of answers for. Worst case scenario we can trade Negate for any 1 of the 31 non-creature spells they have in their deck (like relic of progenitus), we cannot do the same with Dispel vs Jund.
If by doing well you mean fail miserably. I think Game 1 is a perfect example of why I don't play Siege and if I do, I just choose Khans vs an attrition based deck so I can out-grind their removal. All they have to do is play lands and kill the creatures off anyway. Motown had a very good hand and it lost anyway. The star of the show was Chalice on 1 obviously.
Good work maintaining the page!
It turns lands into islands in addition to it's type. So it can't mana screw people which is the problem.
Everyone thinks this when they win a match vs Affinity. Long run I think everyone returns to earth and realizes this match up is terrible anyway. You could make the argument that most of the affinity opponents you play against are terrible and are vulnerable to Hurkyl's Recall, but Merfolk's success in large tournaments has consistently been because they avoided the match up entirely. That being said, I'm not hating Hurkyl's Recall right now, It's better than it's ever been in the past.
4 tidebinders was pretty great but that might be because i played against 3 green decks. i haven't really found myself wishing i had dismembers. between echoing truths, harbingers, and tidebinders i haven't really had trouble getting stuff out of the way. usually 1 or 2 of these effects buys you enough time to win the game with a list running so many creatures. i liked dismember a lot more when i was using it to kill Deceiver Exarchs
U Merfolk U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
I like Thassa and keep wanting to run her, at least for the scry and unblockable but I can't bring myself to take out a Kira or a MoW for a 1 of. Sometimes in lesser competitive events I'll put her in just for fun, but not for something serious.
I expect Regionals will be shaping the meta for awhile especially if nothing interesting happens in the Pro Tour, like if Affinity wins again
UMerfolkU
Legacy
UMerfolkU
Commander
RWBAlesha, Who Smiles At DeathRWB