This topic seems like it's mostly about insulting people for playing variations of essentially the same deck but I'll add something constructive I guess.
izzetmage's comment about Forests is correct. Now that I've gotten to play the deck for a few weeks I agree. I honestly don't know if I even want a basic Plains in the deck, because our only real out to Blood Moon is abrupt decay, which we can cast off Forest+Swamp obviously. But maybe we have enough plays on just XGW where that's dumb and so I'll keep the Plains.
Township is probably questionable in a list that wants so much colored mana, but Vault is just insane in games where you get to activate it.
If I'm going to cut a card for a 24th land, it's probably either a Liege or a Decay. I'm not sure what the math is on going down from 8 to 7 4-drops. Decay would get the cut before a Path because I think Path actually answers more stuff in this meta weirdly. Too many Tasigurs and Anglers and crap running around. Cutting Liege feels awkward because that's the pay off for even playing most of our creatures.
You point on Marsh Flats might be correct in theory, but in practice there's basically no opening hands where I'd want to fetch a basic swamp on turn 1. Even for Thoughtseize, grabbing a basic swamp when your only other cards that even want B are Siege Rhino just feels bad. I also don't have unlimited Magic funds and blew a lot going to the GP, so I'm keeping my Heaths for now.
Again I think cutting Sunpetal for Thicket is correct if we go to Wastes because it will enter untapped on turn 2 and allow us to cast any combination of cards in our hand. Basically the only combinations that don't allow you to cast GB/BW/GW on turn 2 in this setup would require one of the lands to be a basic or vault. I'm honestly not sure what I'd add if we put in a 24th land but I'm open to suggestions on that as well.
I appreciate the time Emracool spent making this deck. Being able to play it now for a little while has given me some ideas on improvements I can make to the deck. I have the physical cards to play the other version as well, but I choose not to because in a meta that is more twin-heavy I think playing a discard spell turn 1 instead of a bird for them to bolt is a little better. But I think slamming decks because they "don't appear on mtgtop8" without trying it is a poor perspective to have, particularly when it takes an hour or two with a friend to fire up cockatrice and jam some games. But innovation is how we get new and exciting decks, better versions of existing decks and how we get things placed on mtgtop8.
I plan on trying those couple of manabase changes on MTGO anyway (which shuffles like crap compared to real life btw) in the interim and getting a better feel for it.
My next question is,in context how much better is llanowar wastes than just 2 more fetches so we can fetch Overgrown Tomb T1. We end up taking 3 damage with this, but if we have llanowar wastes we end up taking one for the hand attack and then a second for our turn 2 play if we have it. Do we end up taking more damage over the course of a game if we play the painland over a fetchland? We also don't get the deck-thinning that the 2 fetches would provide.
Thanks for this guys, but I will say criticism isn't bashing. I agree with trying something new about the manabase and I might be cutting something to add a 24th (I'm going to consult my team on it) and appreciate suggestions of all types that I could use. People are allowed to disagree and that's fine (I disagree with the dork version).
I will say its hard to have legitimacy in arguments if you have yet to try it which people here have not but want to suggest things. Try it one tournament or playtesting session then get back to me. I want to have constructive discussions not a set mindset. The deck is in no way solved we all have the goal of doing the best possible job with the best deck, we are all figuring out how to get there. If the dorkless version wins and works stick to it (I will), but same goes with dork version. That said, if you notice I don't suggest on dork buiods most of the time because its not in my place to. I feel the same can be said with dorkless, but it isn't constructive if we provide some results to start after you ask for results but then not try it still because "no pros play it". How many pros do you know that go on MTGS and if they do explore other threads? These are results that are trying to get the deck out there, saying because its not out there yet so it must be bad is an absurdiam (which has been said in the past).
I think both sides are at fault; I appoligise for not being as open minded in the past but I didn't feel like I was being heard at all and felt that was the way to change it (which is wrong). That said, there are people who also refuse tk try this version at all yet bash it which isn't cool or right.
Lets as a community be more open minded, and if you have a suggestion make sure to say why and have legitimacy in the form of testing with the list. Its not hard but it will make a world of a difference in terms of results.
My next question is,in context how much better is llanowar wastes than just 2 more fetches so we can fetch Overgrown Tomb T1. We end up taking 3 damage with this, but if we have llanowar wastes we end up taking one for the hand attack and then a second for our turn 2 play if we have it. Do we end up taking more damage over the course of a game if we play the painland over a fetchland? We also don't get the deck-thinning that the 2 fetches would provide.
That's also a possibility and honestly I'm not sure I have a great answer.
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My next question is,in context how much better is llanowar wastes than just 2 more fetches so we can fetch Overgrown Tomb T1. We end up taking 3 damage with this, but if we have llanowar wastes we end up taking one for the hand attack and then a second for our turn 2 play if we have it. Do we end up taking more damage over the course of a game if we play the painland over a fetchland? We also don't get the deck-thinning that the 2 fetches would provide.
I dont have legitimacy in this question because it requires testing to be sure, but first impressions to me are more fetches and shocks because we always need colored mana so we take one a turn which is bad for us.
I wouldn't play Llanowar Wastes. The only other deck I know of that plays pain lands is Storm, and it works there because:
1) it wins fast
2) Choke protection, which clearly does not apply to this deck
I'll also say that you shouldn't play Razorverge Thicket if you're going to keep all those 4-drops. Thicket is fine with mana dorks because if you have a mana dork and 2 lands, Thicket as the 3rd land ETBs untapped and lets you play your 4-drops. If you're going to get to 4 mana by land drops alone, you'll want a checkland since it'll most likely ETB untapped if you play it as your 4th land, unlike Thicket.
I wouldn't play Llanowar Wastes. The only other deck I know of that plays pain lands is Storm, and it works there because:
1) it wins fast
2) Choke protection, which clearly does not apply to this deck
I'll also say that you shouldn't play Razorverge Thicket if you're going to keep all those 4-drops. Thicket is fine with mana dorks because if you have a mana dork and 2 lands, Thicket as the 3rd land ETBs untapped and lets you play your 4-drops. If you're going to get to 4 mana by land drops alone, you'll want a checkland since it'll most likely ETB untapped if you play it as your 4th land, unlike Thicket.
This was exactly my logic in this and its why I cut Thicket. I completely agree I will get back to you guys when I make changes on the manabase as to what changes it was and why. I need to consult my team about it
Their prevalence, and that of Twin, might mean that we just don't have a good meta for our deck anymore.
The mana dork version might have a weak matchup vs. Twin, but I actually loved seeing the person across the table from me fetch a Steam Vents on turn 1. Dorkless beats that deck up down and sideways.
Can't see the list having a phenomenal matchup against Twin just by adding a few extra discard. Even traditional Junk is a barely coin flip if not slightly disfavoured according to Karsten's numbers. What do we lose to make a bad matchup still bad but slightly less bad? EV vs Junk. Not worth it IMHO.
In fact, I'm not entirely convinced that it's actually a better matchup with the added discard. They have enough library manipulation & cantrip effects to find more copies. Where we get them is with Abrupt Decay, but holding up Abrupt Decay is going to be pretty hard with no mana accelerants, because tapping out for 4-drops is going to happen a lot more often.
Wilson's deck had zero Abrupt Decay, and the main response to the meta shift towards Twin that many of the successful lists since is adding Decay to the MB, and in fact sometimes even cutting the discard. I'll give you that the mainboard discard will help vs Amulet though.
Edit: Concerning the further post and comments about this topic being only insulting and slamming the deck just because it doesnt have results... I'm not sure how suggesting improvements in a manabase (can I point out after someone asked the question?) and observing the fact that the build doesn't do you any favours in that respect is a topic that's strictly insulting. Furthermore, it's going to be tough to improve a deck and get better as a player if that is the knee jerk reaction to any criticism.
I tried a more interactive version shortly after the PT, even added Liliana, so I speak from experience. I cut Hierarch and but kept in the Birds however, and found that I always wanted to have a Bird in my starter. I'd play games and discard and remove them to oblivion, but didn't have the efficiently costed threats like Tarmogoyf to pressure them at the same time, so I ended up getting nowhere fast. Similar scenario with parallel edits to a BW Lingering Souls deck. It's the classic example of trying to make a deck do something that a different deck already does better.
Hence, I think it's a mistake not to run accelerants. Cutting them has a lot of implications on many aspects of the build (the mana for example). The thing is, it will work to an extent, just like a burn deck with all the sub-par burn spells (eg. Lightning Strike instead of Lightning Bolt) will "work," but it won't have as high an EV at the end of the day. Honestly, makes no difference to me what people want to play. I figured people in this thread actually want to get some useful feedback rather than post the deck and seek praise about how great it is.
In the context of not being able to pressure them quickly, yeah, I don't think the added discard helps that much. It's a bit of a different story when you deploy a Smiter T2 and can then poke a hole in their hand while holding up Decay.
What about thoughtseize into sculler? That gets you a small body and pressures the twin player.
Also, going to test out some early threats in the form of dryad militant. Dryad Militant into Voice into Thoughtseize into Wilt-leaf seems like it could work. (and also help fix the awkward mana problems)
I played my list cut a forest for a plains and it was WAY better at a local tournament I got 3rd place lost to the Ad Nauseam player who's on my team and that I knocked out at the PPTQ so it was revenge lol. I feel the mana problems are sooved with the plains the deck ran smoother and felt better.
I just built the dorkless version so I'm not exactly up on all the tech, but it seems that grixis twin, and all grixis decks, have a hard time with enchantments. I was thinking blind obedience. It basically gives you an untap and draw step to get around their protection or counters. And they can't really remove it outside of EE. It also has the added benefit of giving all of your spells +1 mana - drain life. Which might be good in the grinder matchup post board.
Another one is suppression field, although with all the fetch lands we play it's not optimal.
Sorry if this has been discussed, I read back a few pages and didn't see much good twin hate. Anyone suggesting torpor orb probably hasn't gotten blown out by kologans command yet.
The version with dorks beats twin pure and simple. Its the version I played in a PPTQ and beat 4 twin decks to only draw in with another. I actually increased my dorks from 6 to 7 and want a 4th lingering souls. I also am considering going back to 1 ooze so I can add the 2nd Dromoka's Command.
I think this deck needs to be tested against Elves and Bloom since they are becoming the big two to beat according to mtgo and real life.
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izzetmage's comment about Forests is correct. Now that I've gotten to play the deck for a few weeks I agree. I honestly don't know if I even want a basic Plains in the deck, because our only real out to Blood Moon is abrupt decay, which we can cast off Forest+Swamp obviously. But maybe we have enough plays on just XGW where that's dumb and so I'll keep the Plains.
Township is probably questionable in a list that wants so much colored mana, but Vault is just insane in games where you get to activate it.
If I'm going to cut a card for a 24th land, it's probably either a Liege or a Decay. I'm not sure what the math is on going down from 8 to 7 4-drops. Decay would get the cut before a Path because I think Path actually answers more stuff in this meta weirdly. Too many Tasigurs and Anglers and crap running around. Cutting Liege feels awkward because that's the pay off for even playing most of our creatures.
You point on Marsh Flats might be correct in theory, but in practice there's basically no opening hands where I'd want to fetch a basic swamp on turn 1. Even for Thoughtseize, grabbing a basic swamp when your only other cards that even want B are Siege Rhino just feels bad. I also don't have unlimited Magic funds and blew a lot going to the GP, so I'm keeping my Heaths for now.
Our current 23 lands:
What I'd propose if we want to keep 23:
Again I think cutting Sunpetal for Thicket is correct if we go to Wastes because it will enter untapped on turn 2 and allow us to cast any combination of cards in our hand. Basically the only combinations that don't allow you to cast GB/BW/GW on turn 2 in this setup would require one of the lands to be a basic or vault. I'm honestly not sure what I'd add if we put in a 24th land but I'm open to suggestions on that as well.
I appreciate the time Emracool spent making this deck. Being able to play it now for a little while has given me some ideas on improvements I can make to the deck. I have the physical cards to play the other version as well, but I choose not to because in a meta that is more twin-heavy I think playing a discard spell turn 1 instead of a bird for them to bolt is a little better. But I think slamming decks because they "don't appear on mtgtop8" without trying it is a poor perspective to have, particularly when it takes an hour or two with a friend to fire up cockatrice and jam some games. But innovation is how we get new and exciting decks, better versions of existing decks and how we get things placed on mtgtop8.
I plan on trying those couple of manabase changes on MTGO anyway (which shuffles like crap compared to real life btw) in the interim and getting a better feel for it.
GWB Angel PodWBR Mardu MidrangeGWB Wilted Abzan
I will say its hard to have legitimacy in arguments if you have yet to try it which people here have not but want to suggest things. Try it one tournament or playtesting session then get back to me. I want to have constructive discussions not a set mindset. The deck is in no way solved we all have the goal of doing the best possible job with the best deck, we are all figuring out how to get there. If the dorkless version wins and works stick to it (I will), but same goes with dork version. That said, if you notice I don't suggest on dork buiods most of the time because its not in my place to. I feel the same can be said with dorkless, but it isn't constructive if we provide some results to start after you ask for results but then not try it still because "no pros play it". How many pros do you know that go on MTGS and if they do explore other threads? These are results that are trying to get the deck out there, saying because its not out there yet so it must be bad is an absurdiam (which has been said in the past).
I think both sides are at fault; I appoligise for not being as open minded in the past but I didn't feel like I was being heard at all and felt that was the way to change it (which is wrong). That said, there are people who also refuse tk try this version at all yet bash it which isn't cool or right.
Lets as a community be more open minded, and if you have a suggestion make sure to say why and have legitimacy in the form of testing with the list. Its not hard but it will make a world of a difference in terms of results.
That's also a possibility and honestly I'm not sure I have a great answer.
GWB Angel PodWBR Mardu MidrangeGWB Wilted Abzan
I dont have legitimacy in this question because it requires testing to be sure, but first impressions to me are more fetches and shocks because we always need colored mana so we take one a turn which is bad for us.
1) it wins fast
2) Choke protection, which clearly does not apply to this deck
I'll also say that you shouldn't play Razorverge Thicket if you're going to keep all those 4-drops. Thicket is fine with mana dorks because if you have a mana dork and 2 lands, Thicket as the 3rd land ETBs untapped and lets you play your 4-drops. If you're going to get to 4 mana by land drops alone, you'll want a checkland since it'll most likely ETB untapped if you play it as your 4th land, unlike Thicket.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
This was exactly my logic in this and its why I cut Thicket. I completely agree I will get back to you guys when I make changes on the manabase as to what changes it was and why. I need to consult my team about it
GWB Angel PodWBR Mardu MidrangeGWB Wilted Abzan
it's great against Aggro, combo not so much.
Can't see the list having a phenomenal matchup against Twin just by adding a few extra discard. Even traditional Junk is a barely coin flip if not slightly disfavoured according to Karsten's numbers. What do we lose to make a bad matchup still bad but slightly less bad? EV vs Junk. Not worth it IMHO.
In fact, I'm not entirely convinced that it's actually a better matchup with the added discard. They have enough library manipulation & cantrip effects to find more copies. Where we get them is with Abrupt Decay, but holding up Abrupt Decay is going to be pretty hard with no mana accelerants, because tapping out for 4-drops is going to happen a lot more often.
Wilson's deck had zero Abrupt Decay, and the main response to the meta shift towards Twin that many of the successful lists since is adding Decay to the MB, and in fact sometimes even cutting the discard. I'll give you that the mainboard discard will help vs Amulet though.
Edit: Concerning the further post and comments about this topic being only insulting and slamming the deck just because it doesnt have results... I'm not sure how suggesting improvements in a manabase (can I point out after someone asked the question?) and observing the fact that the build doesn't do you any favours in that respect is a topic that's strictly insulting. Furthermore, it's going to be tough to improve a deck and get better as a player if that is the knee jerk reaction to any criticism.
I tried a more interactive version shortly after the PT, even added Liliana, so I speak from experience. I cut Hierarch and but kept in the Birds however, and found that I always wanted to have a Bird in my starter. I'd play games and discard and remove them to oblivion, but didn't have the efficiently costed threats like Tarmogoyf to pressure them at the same time, so I ended up getting nowhere fast. Similar scenario with parallel edits to a BW Lingering Souls deck. It's the classic example of trying to make a deck do something that a different deck already does better.
Hence, I think it's a mistake not to run accelerants. Cutting them has a lot of implications on many aspects of the build (the mana for example). The thing is, it will work to an extent, just like a burn deck with all the sub-par burn spells (eg. Lightning Strike instead of Lightning Bolt) will "work," but it won't have as high an EV at the end of the day. Honestly, makes no difference to me what people want to play. I figured people in this thread actually want to get some useful feedback rather than post the deck and seek praise about how great it is.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
GWB Angel PodWBR Mardu MidrangeGWB Wilted Abzan
Thoughtseize is a tempo play at its core.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Also, going to test out some early threats in the form of dryad militant. Dryad Militant into Voice into Thoughtseize into Wilt-leaf seems like it could work. (and also help fix the awkward mana problems)
Another one is suppression field, although with all the fetch lands we play it's not optimal.
Sorry if this has been discussed, I read back a few pages and didn't see much good twin hate. Anyone suggesting torpor orb probably hasn't gotten blown out by kologans command yet.
It doesn't kill Tasigur, but it kills the combo creatures that you're afraid of. You can tap out and still be safe. Remand is useless against it.
You can beat Twin just by playing cheap disruption like discard/Pact/Decay. No need to go SBing dedicated hate for them.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I think this deck needs to be tested against Elves and Bloom since they are becoming the big two to beat according to mtgo and real life.