Yes, I've figured that I was playing a lit bit loose vs the Humans matchup and wanted to race him before his creatures grow too much. In the end the answer was just relying more on your removal. Even so, the matchup seems pretty even to me. Even a bit favorable to them (55-45 to 60-40, I would say). Luck of the draw.
What I'm thinking about the humans matchup is replacing Gideon, Ally of Zendikar with Garruk Relentless maindeck. This means I will have 2 more "cheap" removals maindecks, but after flipping Garruk I have a pretty stable stream of blockers. That and every token you have can transform into Rhinos and Lieges. This is something that I will test in the upcoming week.
The downsides of this approach is that the matchups where you HAVE to be beatdown get a little bit slower (no Gideon + token hitting for 7 on turn 5), but this is some clock I'm willing to sacrifice.
The other card that is busting my ass at the moment is Stormbreath Dragon. I need some answers to this guy besides Maelstrom Pulse. Maybe Dismember or Plummet, since it is against Ponza and I will probably won't have black mana available most of the time?
EDIT:
I have made some changes in my stock list, to test with two new cards: Garruk Relentless and Tidehollow Sculler. The rationale behind moving to Scullers is that I want more disruption. I'm moving away from Voice of Resurgence, as it a card that I'm sideboarding out a lot. It is incredibly good in the right matchups (UWx Control, mostly). Voices add a lot of pressure and certainly a clock, specially after dying and leaving the elemental token, thanks to Lingering Souls.
However, they do not provide me information nor safety. I'd rather be proactive with the Scullers and remove the best card in their hand instead of gaining some tempo and making them waste removal on their turn. Creature decks don't even bother running removal on Voice, as it is just a bear for most of the time.
Having 2 of them on the maindeck, is a nod to their incredible pressure on the right matchups. With Garruk on the top-end of the deck, I can tutor for a Voice most of the time when they would have the most impact. That's the reason I have a sole Orzhov Pontiff maindeck as well. I want to make some room for one Eternal Witness or Ramunap Excavator, to be able to salvage manlands and Gavony Townships.
I'm considering running a third Rhino instead of the third Liege as well, since I have moved a little bit away from the fast clock and Liege is always the last card you want to play. I'll be remaining with three Lieges and three Loxodon Smiters, because you insta win against Hollow One decks running Burning Inquiry, and Liliana of the Veil is food for you.
Really interesting list... how’ve you found your changes against humans and Ponza?
My list below, but haven’t had chance to test yet. Ironically I normally play Abzan Company or Humans, but I’ve had a lot of the cards for Liege for sometime. My sideboard is creature heavy based on the slightly more “toolbox” nature of my list.
A lot of creature based matchups became a lot better whenever I had Garruk Relentless. He's awesome and definetely deserves his spot on the deck. While Gideon, Ally of Zendikar certainly gives a very fast clock to the deck and some nut draws, we are playing Jank. We're playing black and white, namelyu two of the most interacting colors of the pie.
Racing is good, but leaves the deck too linear. I have been appreciating the extra dimension of attack Garruk gives.
In that aspect, Orzhov Pontiff is always a beating. Wheter to push for that extra points of damage in the skies or to simply sweep the enemy board (specially relevant vs Mardu tokens... and master of the waves.) He gives you some advantage in Lingering Souls mirrors as well.
Please give me some feedback with the Eldritch Evolution deck you have. I feel that with EE I would want to have at least one 5 mana threat in the deck, since saccing Finks is good times. Maybe Archangel Avacyn, Bishop of Rebirth, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Gearhulks, good ol' Thragtusk... you got the idea.
PS: More than once I have been facing Mono White Enduring Ideal prison decks. If that's the thing in your meta, Fracturing Gust is a great card to have, since it hits affinity as well.
I really like Collective Brutality's interaction with Lingering Souls. I've used it quite a few times with some great outcomes. I've replaced what would be a 4th Fatal Push or a 3rd Abrupt Decay with it as a one-of maindeck and haven't regretted it.
I miss my 4th Lingering Souls and need to find room for it again.
I don't quite like my manabase right now. I want one more black source.
Anafenza is a beast. He's very decent when his grave-hate isn't applicable and he's amazing to have maindeck when it is. His +1/+1 ability is nothing to scoff at either. It doesn't come up that often but it has some badass synergy with Kitchen Finks.
I wish I could add a 2nd Siege Rhino, but as of right now I cannot part with either a Liege or a Gideon. Sure, playing a free Liege after pathing a Reality Smasher or from an opponent +1ing a Liliana of the Veil is the tits, but it's the fact that she turns everything in our deck into a huge threat that makes me keep her as a 4-of. I've swung a game in my favor far too many times by topdecking a Liege. And I've been loving my Gideons. I have considered trying other PW's though, just out of curiosity. I was thinking Elspeth, Knight-Errant, but Garruk Relentless does sound intriguing
I wish I could cut a Path for a Push, but there's just too many decks at my LGS with creatures that I need unconditional removal for.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is an absolute monster. I just won't leave home without her in the SB now. At a cmc of 6 a card should win you the game, and that's exactly what she does against any control or BGx deck. I like her against Eldrazi too.
Eidolon of Rhetoric has been really good for me. Living End, Storm, Elves, Burn, Infect, etc.
I've had good luck with the Humans MU. It's a grindy game, but I always seem to go wider and get fatter than they do with the help of my removal. This is one of those MU's where Liege comes down off a topdeck and really changes things.
That's all I have for now. Again, I'm glad this thread has picked up a little steam, and I'm glad I checked it to see if anyone had posted since I posted that link to mtg.one. Looking forward to hearing more of y'all's thoughts.
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I've been leaning toward Eidolon of Rhetoric myself. I really like your SB split and it is really close to mine. I think I'll just end up copying yours. I really feel that my deck has some one ofs that are a bit out of place, so maybe I'll try to balance then around your deck too. I'll give it a test (with garruks) and see what I like and dislike about it.
Collective Brutality is 17tix online, though ugh, what a hit. Maybe I'll wait until the beggining of next month to do it hahaha
With your build the deck really wants more black sources. Brutality into Souls requires double black. I feel that you will run into some awkward scenarios where you want to Gideon (WW) or Brut->Souls (BB).
I've been leaning toward Eidolon of Rhetoric myself. I really like your SB split and it is really close to mine. I think I'll just end up copying yours. I really feel that my deck has some one ofs that are a bit out of place, so maybe I'll try to balance then around your deck too. I'll give it a test (with garruks) and see what I like and dislike about it.
I wish I could find room for two Eidolons, but I just don't see how. It seems pretty good against Snapcaster strategies too. I always worry about siding too much in though and watering down the main strategy just because a sideboard card could have some interaction with a particular deck. I'm interested to see how you like the Garruks. I have two in my Gb Elves sideboard. They're my super-secret tech for the grindy MU's and have been all-stars. I am heavily considering taking them for a test spin in place of the Gideons in this deck for tomorrow night's tournament at my LGS. The extra removal is extremely appealing, as well as the much easier mana requirements. I do worry that I won't have as much of a clock when I need it most. Some games just demand a 3-drop beater on turn two, followed up by some serious beats the following turns.
Collective Brutality is 17tix online, though ugh, what a hit. Maybe I'll wait until the beggining of next month to do it hahaha
Dang, that's steep. I think you'll like it though. No reason to bother saying it, but the card just covers so many angles. No need to go into why it's played in modern. I will say that it feels really good getting two modes from binning souls, and that it's nice to have redundancy on top of Kitchen Finks and Rhinos for the Burn MU. Also, I've managed a couple of complete blowouts against Infect by Disfigureing their critter, Duressing one of their pumps, and getting two cheap flying blockers, all with two cards and four mana.
With your build the deck really wants more black sources. Brutality into Souls requires double black. I feel that you will run into some awkward scenarios where you want to Gideon (WW) or Brut->Souls (BB).
I couldn't agree more, and unfortunately I have already run into those scenarios. The mana requirements of this deck are tough... really tough. Abrupt Decay, Anafenza, Voice, double white on Gideon, double black on Brutality/Souls. There are some VERY specific mana requirements. And I for sure need more black sources. I think I'm gonna start with replacing one Temple Garden for a second Godless Shrine. Anyway, the mana is part of my draw to trying out Garruk. I played a singleton Brimaz, King of Oreskos for awhile, but eventually took it out because the double white on a 3-drop was so tough, and I felt I needed another Anafenza for my local meta. Still, Brimaz was an absolute house in this deck. I can't stress that enough. I miss him. He had to go though.
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Trying to deckbuild around the new cards made me go for two apporoaches:
1. Heavy white with Gideon (and no Brutality). You should still have a single black on turn two or three for Anafenza and Lingering Souls, but you won't need the double black requirements. Mana stays as it is. This means you can use Brimaz (which I was looking for as well).
This is a deck that has a better clock and is more linear. You don't have many angles of attack, but the angles you have are efficient and hit HARD.
This should be your option if facing non-interactive strategies, such as Storm. The deck loses a little bit of % against other rock strategies, but still should be favorable. Humans matchup will be more of a coinflip as well.
2. Heavier on the black sources, with Brutality and Garruk. This means you lose clock, but you have more angles of attack and a better presence in the mid to late game. What you lose in racing, you gain in tempo. Humans is easier, Death Shadow is easier, Rock is a cakewalk. You do lose more to storm and uninteractive strategies.
You take longer to win, but you have less problems reaching that winning state.
I do love the Garruk Relentless. He is rarely irrelevant, and if he flips the turn he goes to the table, you can always tutor a Liege or Rhino to make up for the damage that you would do if he were a Gideon instead. I never lost a game where I could activate Garruk twice. This is pretty big.
It really depends on your local meta. As I have been facing some Enduring Ideal decks online as well as having some 50-50 hard matchups against affinity, I have added two Qasali Pridemages to the maindeck. This is my current decklist, that I'm testing online (unfortunately I had a triple tron matchup yesterday, which is arguably the worst match of all times, so no useful feedback):
PS: Maybe it's because of your mana requirements, but most of the time I fetch Overgrown Tomb. It is the mana that opens the most plays for me turn 1 through 4, I almost never go for Godless Shrine. Also, I think that if I rely too much on a single land to give me both secondary colors, it is a very easy target for hate. I get screwed twofold by losing it.
Some thoughts:
1. I really want to put Elspeth in the maindeck. She's gas in most matchups and one of the best topdecks you can ever wish for. I have cut one Wilt-Leaf Liege in lieu of her.
I've moved the Orzhov Pontiff to the sideboard and removed one Smiter for two copies of Anafenza, the Foremost. While we do have some awkwardness of her counters ability and Exalted from Noble Hierarch, she hits hard and randomly screws graveyard shenanigans. It makes our Dredge matchup easier g1, and it is close to 50-50 already.
One less Voice of Resurgence and one Abrupt Decay to the sideboard for the two copies of Qasali Pridemage. This is what I really want to test out, specially vs Affinity, and it is popular right on leagues online. It randomly wins games agains't Enduring Ideal too. It's just a good card overall.
Cards that I want to squeeze in but have no room for: Collective Brutality - one of the best Rock cards ever printed. I feel, however, that by using it I will want a fourth Lingering Souls and maybe trim down on Path to Exiles. I feel that 13 pieces of removal (counting Garruk Relentless here) is the sweet spot for the deck. Perhaps we want to go higher on a meta filled with Merfolk, Infect and Humans, so that's where I would use it.
Eidolon of Rhetoric - I want a second one and I'm close to cutting Orzhov Pontiff for it. Pontiff is good and tutorable with Garruk, but If I'm tutoring with Garruk, why not Liege or Rhino? Maybe I should cut the Aven Mindcensors though, as I haven't been having much success with them lately. Perhaps it's the lack of matchs against Storm.
Siege Rhino - I could run four and still think that I need more. Such a good card. Currently running one.
Eternal Witness - For those times when I really need Maelstrom Pulse again, or Abrupt Decay or the fourth land drop. You can even tutor her with Garruk, get him back from the grave and play him again. A lot of shenanigans possible with her, but sadly, no room in the deck.
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Why don't you come and contribute making the best Abzan deck in modern? Abzan Liege
I'm writing this as I play a Modern Friendly League. The decklist is the same as I posted before, with the exception of -1 Orzhov Pontiff on the SB and +1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
G1: Bogles 0-2
Turns out our deck is pretty bad agains't Bogles. The lack of Liliana really bites us. We can blowout them if they go for the Daybreak Coronet by breaking their first enchantment, but that wasn't enough for me. Got trampled over by a giant bogle twice.
I don't even remember how I sideboarded against him, because everything was bad. I got annoyed because he laughed in the chat when I lost, which I thought was rude.
Match Total: 0-1
Game Total: 0-2
G2: Affinity
Talk about an intense match.
G1 I mull to 6, leaving one Voice of Resurgence on top, with Turn 1 noble, turn two Stirring Wildwood +Voice. He goes t1 blinkmoth into signal pest.
Turn two he gets ravager and ornipthopter, cranial plating and I draw a bunch of lands. Can't stop the robots.
G2 I have a firm grip with Qasali Pridemage and Stony Silence. I get turn 2 Silence, Turn 3 Pridemage and start hammering away him, as his only mana sources were artifact lands and a Mox. I hammered him with Qasali, until he gets a Tear for my Stony Silence. In the same turn, he Thoughtseizes me to find a grip with 2 Path to Exiles, one Abrupt Decay, one Stony Silence and two Lieges. He has the tear for the second silence, but it is too late. The beatdowns got to him.
I figured out he would have Ghirapur Aether Grid, so I sided out two BoPs for two Thoughtseizes.
I keep a hand with Noble, Qasali, Abrupt, Rhino and lands. He starts with Thopter + artifact land into Vault Skirge. This is going to be a problem.
He plays Spire of Industry into Galvanic Blast my Noble. I draw Garruk Relentless for the turn and now I face the decision of playing Qasali Pridemage with no mana open or holding Abrupt Decay and run into the possibility of not doing anything for a turn.
I decide to hold Decay. I'm at 19 life right now and a Cranial Plating could really wreck my day. I also have the nice play of Qasali with mana open into Garruk turn 4, which could possibly wrath his board. He plays Ghirapur, hits with Skirge. I Abrupt the Skirge and he and passes.
Qasali go, he plays Etched Champion with exactly 3 artifacts in play. He then Galvanics my Qasali. I sac Qasali to kill Ornipthopter, he now loses Metalcraft, I play Garruk killing the champion and now I have a pretty good lead: I still have Rhino in hand and 2 lands (could be Lingering Souls ), he has no card in hand and his only threat is double Inkmoth Nexus on the board. He Ghirapur's my Garruk and the deck does what he is designed to do: win the topdeck war. He can't hold his own against Rhino + Smiter on the following turns.
Matches: 1-1
Games: 2-3
G3 Eldrazi Tron
He has turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer into turn 3 Reality Smasher. Then turn 4 Endbringer Fun times.
I side out Abrupt Decay to 2 Thoughtseize. I don't know what the hell to do against this deck.
G2 I start with noble into t2 Smiter. He goes matter reshaper turn 2. T3 I drop another noble and Anafenza. He goes for another Matter Reshaper.
Liege turn 4. He trades both reshapers with Anafenza, but they're exiled.
Natural tron on turn 4, Reality Smasher + Walking Balista, but I Path and he scoops.
G3 is a really grindy match, where he ends drawing way more cards than me thanks to Sea-Gate Wreckage and then Endbringer. I got the chance to close the game if I drew some stuff, but in the end I couldn't draw anything but Forest and other lands.
G4 vs Merfolk
Finally a favorable matchup!
Game one I start with a shaky hand. I have path, push, garruk and lands. I start the game so I just land and go.
He goes with cursecatcher. Hm. I topdeck a BoP and play it, so I can Garruk next turn. Here is the blowout: he plays a lord and attacks with Cursecatcher. I Path to Exile the Lord, with no open mana, so he just sacs the Catcher. No extra land for him.
I then Garruk Relentless the lord and win the tempo and Card Advantage battle. Very hard to come back from that.
I take out 2 Anafenza, as I sense that I won't be attacking too much this game early. +1 Zealous Persecution +1 Abrupt Decay
He mulls to five and I keep a hand with Noble, Birds, Smiter, Path and Lands. Everything I ever wanted.
He can't put up with the turn 2 Smiter, into turn 3 removal and pressure from the deck. I also topdecked more PtEs, Decays and Pushes, sohe just concedes.
Matchs: 2-2
Games: 5-5
Everything tied for the last game!
G5: Mono White Proclamation of Rebirth
I come out really fast g1. Noble -> Smiter -> Liege -> Souls. He has a rather slow hand with Weathered Wayfarer and Kami of False Hope and gets overwhelmed really fast.
He shows me his hand after the first game containing a Proclamation of Rebirth. Well, that helps me sideboard, thank you good sir.
Game 2 is draining. He gets his engine going with Martyr of the Sands bumping his life to a lot, Serra Ascendant being a threat and Ghostly Prison holding me down. The deck is decently resilient to the point that I was @ 5min on the clock and still had some chance of winning, but I figured out I would just waste my time. So I conceded, put the Smiters back to the maindeck and decided to race him.
G3 I keep Liege, Teeg, Noble, Birds and lands, one being Gavony Township. This hands looks perfect for a swarm, just missing a Lingering Souls. I will have Teeg to protect me from Wrath of God and I can start hitting him pretty fast.
I play noble, he plays a tapland. I then topdeck Thoughtseize and see Banishing Light, Oblivion Ring, Path to Exile, Disenchant and lands (one being Ghost Quarter). This is going to be a topdeck battle soon if I can't swarm. I make a little mistake here by taking Oblivion Ring. Maybe I should take Path to he wouldn't be able to double removal on his next turn, but I thought "if I topdeck Elspeth I want her to stick".
So I play Teeg and pass. He plays a freshly from the top Squadron Hawk. I topdeck Lingering Souls, play the Souls and Birds, looking for a Liege alpha strike next turn.
He Paths my Liege and Banishing Lights my Teeg, but the damage is done: I now have my dorks and Spirit tokens with Gavony online. He does not manage to find the Wrath of God and we get the W
Matchs: 3-2
Games: 6-5
Overall, positive!
I really liked the current maindeck. One league is not enough of a sample size to take conclusions, but I lost to decks I was supposed to lose and I won against decks I was supposed to win. I still want to find opportunities to use Elspeth, Sun's Champion. I desired to topdeck her a LOT. Garruk Relentless was a BEAST and got me several wins from his tutor ability. I really felt, however, that I wanted some creature with ETB destroy a permanent or some guy with Haste or Lifelink (Like this or maybeboth?[c]) I could really use some of those.
I'm also thinking of adding Fracturing Gust to the sideboard. It is great against affinity and allround answer to both artifacts and enchantments.
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Why don't you come and contribute making the best Abzan deck in modern? Abzan Liege
I'm really glad you're liking the deck. They just started alternating Modern and Legacy tournaments on Wednesdays at my LGS, so I didn't get to play on Wednesday this week. I played a modern tournament last night, but ended up running Living End instead. I have three decks built on paper; Gb Elves, Living End, and Abzan Liege. I love playing all three and they're all very equal in strength with me as a pilot. Honestly Living End would probably be my strongest deck if I was a more skillful player. There's a lot more to it than people think. Anyway, I had my first opponent roll a die to see which of the three decks I would run in the tournament last night (it's pretty lax there most of the time, unless it's a big event). Turned out to be LE. I did play my Abzan Liege deck in between rounds and after the tournament with great success though.
Some thoughts and responses:
Anafenza, the Foremost is so good right now. Way better than I initially thought. I wondered when I first included her if she was just a novelty. FAR from it. In addition to making for a great game-one against decks like Dredge, Living End,and Hollow One, she shuts down so many other things. Opposing Voice of Resurgence and Kitchen Finks no longer net any value. She's a must answer. I'm extremely pleased with her. As far as her +1/+1 ability being a nonbo with Exalted, I usually give the counters to a Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise that I've tapped for mana. A few turns of this converts a dork into a threat.
I still haven't gotten to use Garruk Relentless. I'm excited that you've had good luck with him though. I'm still looking forward to trying him out.
Fracturing Gust is the real deal and I think a 2-of would be fine in this deck since we have some decent ramp. I run two with fantastic success in my Gb Elves deck, although it's even better there because Elves ramp so ridiculously well. Though if you start running into a lot of Bogles and Enduring Ideal type decks might I suggest ---Back to Nature--- instead? I use to run it in my Jund deck when Bogles was the exciting new thing in modern. It has a lot more applications than you would think too. It's great against Ponza, Blue Moon, BW Tokens, etc. In fact, Now that I mention it, I might have to add one somewhere in my SB. I've been having trouble with Ponza lately.
I'm having trouble with the Gb Elves MU. Fortunately mine is the only one I've been seeing lately. They're just a little too fast for me to race, and our spot removal isn't as good against them as it is against Gw Elves that runs the combo. Gb is just more resilient. Shaman of the Pack gives them inevitability, and a couple of Lead the Stampedes lets them refill their hand too well. Do you have any suggestions for sweepers that won't kill our stuff too? One Zealous Persecution just isn't enough redundancy, and -1/-1 doesn't kill enough of them, and if they have a lord it doesn't kill any of them.
Keep me updated with how you feel about Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the MB. I'm interested. She's way too high of a CMC to be relevant in some games, but as we've said she just straight up wins others.
There's a couple of Storm decks that have been showing up lately at my LGS, so I may really try to find some room for the second Eidolon of Rhetoric. And as we've stated, she has applications apart from Storm as well.
If you were to take out Aven Mindcensor I fear we wouldn't have ways to deal with non-Eldrazi Tron and Valakut/Titan decks. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
I still really miss my 4th Lingering Souls. I still have to find a another slot for it.
I like Qasali Pridemage a lot. I always have. I used to run GW Hatebears on paper before the vial version got popular online. Pridemage was a maindeck all-star. I actually picked up two of the FNM promos awhile back, but still haven't found a slot for them in the deck. I may consider looking again.
This is all I have time for now. My wife is patiently waiting on my to finish so we can start a movie. I'm looking forward to hearing your responses.
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I've just been overwhelmed by so many trons in every level of competition online right now. If this were a local meta I would bring the deck, surely, as it can be tuned, but for online it is so unfavorable right now it's not even funny. Since GB/x decks, which are our prey, are not on a high, I think I'll shelve this for a while, just keeping giving some insights from now and then here.
About Anafenza, yes, she is pretty good. She really feels amazing in the maindeck. I like her way more than Loxodon Smiter right now. Garruk Relentless is a hidden gem in this format. Really good because of versatility.
While I'm seeing a lot of Bogles online (srsly, had 3 or 4 Bogles just today), I think I prefer Fracturing Gust on the sideboard, as it is another card that we can bring against Affinity. Versus affinity we're generally going to topdeck mode vs topdeck mode and the matchup can end from nowhere if they topdeck a Cranial Plating/c] or Arcbound Ravager with Inkmoth Nexus. They are loaded with threats and Fracturing Gust completely neutralizes these kind of scenarios, specially in the lategame when you have the mana to cast it.
Along with Qasali Pridemages and Abrupt Decay we can have some tricks to hold Bogles down for a while until we can cast it as well. I think, at least. That would be my plan.
If I were to update the deck, I think I would cut both Smiters, add a third Anafenza and a fourth Lingering Souls. Tehn cut the Eidolons from the sideboard and put two Fracturing Gust, based on online meta as of today. Eidolon is good, but the matchups where he is reliable are very few at the moment.
I have been flirting with one-sided wraths, but I don't find any. What actually gave me some room for thought was ditching our smaller creatures and running more Siege Rhino, targeted discard and sweepers, but then again, there's already a thread for The Rock. Abzan Rites would be something like this, I guess.
I won't be playing much Abzan right now, but I'll keep an eye on the thread. It is my "go-to" deck when the meta seem a little more less Tron-y online. I really like playing it, probably more than Twin in the old days. I have to diversify a little bit on the strats if I want to do good in GP São Paulo in July, though.
I hope the movie was good
Man... Tron. I've ALWAYS run decks that get preyed on by Tron. I just feel like all the best and most rewarding decks to play have a terrible Tron MU. This is just my opinion, of course. I'm sorry you're seeing a lot of them. Apparently they were rampant at our LGS right before I started playing there again. The E-Tron MU is pretty decent for us though. We can go wider and even get fatter than them.
I agree. Loxodon Smiter just really isn't that relevant right now. Not a lot of counterspells going around, at least that care about a play like Smiter. I think that 3-4 Wilt-Leaf Lieges and 3-4 Lingering Souls is plenty of discard hate. I'd suggest the possibility of Doran, the Siege Tower in one of Smiter's slots (some tech from the Junk of old), but he doesn't play very well with our Kitchen Finks. He does however buff our Noble Hierarchs, Birds of Paradise, Stirring Wildwoods, and Siege Rhinos. He also shuts down Cranial Plating and helps us sneak under Ensnaring Bridge. Still, I don't think the Power/Toughness switching shenanigans are enough to make up for the vanillaness of Doran. I'd rather have something that's going to guarantee me some value or give me some strong main deck hate. The old Junk decks that used to run him had Elspeth, Knight-Errant to get him up in the air. A third Anafenza, the Foremost is intriguing. I'd hate to get too loaded down with the legend, but then again she would provide some SERIOUS hate for graveyard strategies. I would feel a little mistreated if I showed up to play some Living End and someone had 3 main deck Anafenzas. I'll be thinking hard about prospects for the 3 cmc slot. They're extremely important in this deck. There's a lot of times we need them to come down on turn-2 and hit HARD to put enough pressure on.
The Affinity MU feels pretty good already. We have a lot of solid spot removal backed by Stony Silence and Zealous Persecution in the board. Lingering Souls is great here too. Of course it's Affinity and sometimes they just get the right hand and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
I appreciate the dialogue. It's been helpful. It has also been encouraging to know I'm not the only one out there who loves this deck. If the meta's not right though, the meta's not right. Although it does seem very healthy and diverse right now, at least from my angle, I wish the BGx decks would come back. They're some of my favorite decks to play and play against. I hate to see them absent from their rightful place at the table.
I'm going to keep running this deck at my LGS though as the environment there is a little more favorable for it, and I'll be testing out all the cards we've been discussing. It'll have to share time with Living End though. I love that deck and I really want to get good at piloting it. There's so much more to it than people think.
By the way, what deck/decks will you be running online in the meantime?
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MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I definitely won't let this thread die out!
Abzan Liege might not be the best choice right now but it can be a force to be reckoned with depending on the meta. I feel that GP São Paulo will feature a lot of Burn. It will really depend if Bx decks are in the meta for my decision. I'm glad I have a comrade in arms to help develop the deck
Doran is certainly interesting tech. I will keep it in mind.
Currently I'm thinking of three possible decks:
1. UR Storm, which I have some past piloting it. I don't like having a huge target on my back, though.
2. Mono Blue Living End. This deck surprised me with its consistency and odd angle of attack. Living End is a VERY swingy card and 4Cryptic Command helps a lot vs Ramp decks, which are Abzan's weaknesses.
3. Taking Turns. Just is more a casual choice, but I just love looping turns around and the deck looks good vs most matchups. Even the burn MU is not as bad as it seems. Though most of this choice is my Rogue deck preference speaking out.
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Why don't you come and contribute making the best Abzan deck in modern? Abzan Liege
I think, unless a really good card (IE: Fatal Push) comes out in a set, this is my final version of this deck.
It's just not going to be a tier 1 deck in the form that this thread is about (Siege Rhino + Wilt-Leaf Liege).
There's some flexibility... Thalia, Voice, and Finks can all be swapped around and/or replaced with something else based on a meta call.
Basically, this version I feel is a generic "I feel like playing Rhinos today" deck where it's going to be fine in an unknown meta. You'll have a fighting chance against any deck.
With Jund back to the spotlight I feel that this deck has the appropriate matchups to shine! Maybe I'll start brewing and playing with this again.
I believe so as well, though I have not played this deck in any form yet, since I lack the Hierarchs. That said, half of my Abzan deck now needs a new home, and it seems to me that VoR, Lingering Souls, Loxodon Smiter and Kitchen Finks is a good way to attack both Control and Jund.
I was wondering about 2x thalias MB, but Im still waiting until the meta estabilize a little bit more. I took out 2 paths to put 2 thoughtseize MB, thinking about increasing the number of discards MB too.
I thought I'd see a little more traffic here since Bloodbraid Elf got a presidential pardon. I was right! I actually just finished building Jund myself! I always said I'd put it back together when they let her out of jail, and I wasn't kidding. I'm not going to go into it because this isn't the place, except for to say that I'm super excited about these unbans. Time will tell, but I think it's gonna do nothing but good for the format. It certainly makes this deck a more viable option! I couldn't be happier, guys. Wilt-Leaf Liege is one of my favorite cards and the deck she goes in is one of my favorites, and Jund IS my favorite deck of all time (even though I'm not a great pilot and it really requires a great pilot), and they both got gud again. We'll have to see just how good, but I feel like they'll be good enough at the very least. Also, I feel like my Gb Elves (possibly Jund Elves?) just got better than Gw Elves. And on top of everything else I'm getting pretty decent at piloting Living End, which is such a hardy deck and is incredibly fun and powerful.
tl;dr: I'm excited.
Hmmm... I hadn't even considered Thalia, Heretic Cathar in the three-drop slot. What's our angle there? Why her over other cards? She seems good, I'm just interested to hear your reasoning.
Sigarda, Host of Herons seems solid and I've considered her before. Her anti-sac is good against Liliana of the Veil, but then again we're already great against Lili and they're sure to side her out after game one. She's great against Living End, but it would be a race to get her out before they could cascade, especially with Simian Spirit Guide. Protects against All is Dust too. Of course she's also a monster 5/5 flyer that can't be shot down by kill spells, and gets a huge boost from WLL and even makes good use of exalted triggers.
If we're expecting a lot of control and BGx, why would we want to take out Gideon, Ally of Zendikar? I know I don't.
I do agree about possibly wanting some targeted discard again in the form of Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize. An overload of removal is really bad against control. Still, where do we want and how do we split our removal and discard?
Hopefully we can get an updated article by Thomas Snodgrass on mtg.one
Removal. Cheap removal.
What I'm thinking about the humans matchup is replacing Gideon, Ally of Zendikar with Garruk Relentless maindeck. This means I will have 2 more "cheap" removals maindecks, but after flipping Garruk I have a pretty stable stream of blockers. That and every token you have can transform into Rhinos and Lieges. This is something that I will test in the upcoming week.
The downsides of this approach is that the matchups where you HAVE to be beatdown get a little bit slower (no Gideon + token hitting for 7 on turn 5), but this is some clock I'm willing to sacrifice.
The other card that is busting my ass at the moment is Stormbreath Dragon. I need some answers to this guy besides Maelstrom Pulse. Maybe Dismember or Plummet, since it is against Ponza and I will probably won't have black mana available most of the time?
EDIT:
I have made some changes in my stock list, to test with two new cards: Garruk Relentless and Tidehollow Sculler. The rationale behind moving to Scullers is that I want more disruption. I'm moving away from Voice of Resurgence, as it a card that I'm sideboarding out a lot. It is incredibly good in the right matchups (UWx Control, mostly). Voices add a lot of pressure and certainly a clock, specially after dying and leaving the elemental token, thanks to Lingering Souls.
However, they do not provide me information nor safety. I'd rather be proactive with the Scullers and remove the best card in their hand instead of gaining some tempo and making them waste removal on their turn. Creature decks don't even bother running removal on Voice, as it is just a bear for most of the time.
Having 2 of them on the maindeck, is a nod to their incredible pressure on the right matchups. With Garruk on the top-end of the deck, I can tutor for a Voice most of the time when they would have the most impact. That's the reason I have a sole Orzhov Pontiff maindeck as well. I want to make some room for one Eternal Witness or Ramunap Excavator, to be able to salvage manlands and Gavony Townships.
I'm considering running a third Rhino instead of the third Liege as well, since I have moved a little bit away from the fast clock and Liege is always the last card you want to play. I'll be remaining with three Lieges and three Loxodon Smiters, because you insta win against Hollow One decks running Burning Inquiry, and Liliana of the Veil is food for you.
Anyways, enough rambling. Here is the deck:
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Gavony Township
2 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Voice of Resurgence
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Siege Rhino
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Path to Exile
1 Fatal Push
2 Stony Silence
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
My list below, but haven’t had chance to test yet. Ironically I normally play Abzan Company or Humans, but I’ve had a lot of the cards for Liege for sometime. My sideboard is creature heavy based on the slightly more “toolbox” nature of my list.
4 birds of paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 voice of resurgence
1 scavenging ooze
2 dark Confidant
3 Loxodon Smiters
3 kitchen finks
1 Anafenza, the foremost
2 wilt-leaf liege
4 siege rhino
Spells
4 path to exile
2 abrupt decay
2 lingering souls
1 maelstrom pulse
4 eldritch evolution
4 windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
1 overgrown tomb
2 temple garden
1 godless shrine
1 Razorverge thicket
2 horizon canopy
1 gavony township
1 stirring wildwood
1 hissing quagmire
1 plains
2 forest
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 sigarda, host of herons
1 linvala, keeper of silence
1 Anafenza, the foremost
1 Thalia, heretic cathar
1 kambal, consul of allocation
1 vexing shusher
3 Tidehollow sculler
1 phyrexian revoker
1 orzhov pontiff
1 selfless spirit
1 Kataki, war’s wage
1 Qasali pridemage
I only have it in paper, so if I get to test it I will feedback results.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Racing is good, but leaves the deck too linear. I have been appreciating the extra dimension of attack Garruk gives.
In that aspect, Orzhov Pontiff is always a beating. Wheter to push for that extra points of damage in the skies or to simply sweep the enemy board (specially relevant vs Mardu tokens... and master of the waves.) He gives you some advantage in Lingering Souls mirrors as well.
Please give me some feedback with the Eldritch Evolution deck you have. I feel that with EE I would want to have at least one 5 mana threat in the deck, since saccing Finks is good times. Maybe Archangel Avacyn, Bishop of Rebirth, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Gearhulks, good ol' Thragtusk... you got the idea.
PS: More than once I have been facing Mono White Enduring Ideal prison decks. If that's the thing in your meta, Fracturing Gust is a great card to have, since it hits affinity as well.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Anafenza, the Foremost
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Loxodon Smiter
4x Wilt-Leaf Liege
1x Siege Rhino
Instants(9):
4x Path to Exile
3x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
Sorceries(5):
3x Lingering Souls (I miss the 4th)
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Collective Brutality
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Lands(23):
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Temple Garden
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Godless Shrine
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Gavony Township
2x Stirring Wildwood
2x Razorverge Thicket
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Aven Mindcensor
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Stony Silence
1x Zealous Persecution
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Thoughtseize
1x Collective Brutality
A few observations, thoughts, etc.:
I really like Collective Brutality's interaction with Lingering Souls. I've used it quite a few times with some great outcomes. I've replaced what would be a 4th Fatal Push or a 3rd Abrupt Decay with it as a one-of maindeck and haven't regretted it.
I miss my 4th Lingering Souls and need to find room for it again.
I don't quite like my manabase right now. I want one more black source.
Anafenza is a beast. He's very decent when his grave-hate isn't applicable and he's amazing to have maindeck when it is. His +1/+1 ability is nothing to scoff at either. It doesn't come up that often but it has some badass synergy with Kitchen Finks.
I wish I could add a 2nd Siege Rhino, but as of right now I cannot part with either a Liege or a Gideon. Sure, playing a free Liege after pathing a Reality Smasher or from an opponent +1ing a Liliana of the Veil is the tits, but it's the fact that she turns everything in our deck into a huge threat that makes me keep her as a 4-of. I've swung a game in my favor far too many times by topdecking a Liege. And I've been loving my Gideons. I have considered trying other PW's though, just out of curiosity. I was thinking Elspeth, Knight-Errant, but Garruk Relentless does sound intriguing
I wish I could cut a Path for a Push, but there's just too many decks at my LGS with creatures that I need unconditional removal for.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is an absolute monster. I just won't leave home without her in the SB now. At a cmc of 6 a card should win you the game, and that's exactly what she does against any control or BGx deck. I like her against Eldrazi too.
Eidolon of Rhetoric has been really good for me. Living End, Storm, Elves, Burn, Infect, etc.
I've had good luck with the Humans MU. It's a grindy game, but I always seem to go wider and get fatter than they do with the help of my removal. This is one of those MU's where Liege comes down off a topdeck and really changes things.
That's all I have for now. Again, I'm glad this thread has picked up a little steam, and I'm glad I checked it to see if anyone had posted since I posted that link to mtg.one. Looking forward to hearing more of y'all's thoughts.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Collective Brutality is 17tix online, though ugh, what a hit. Maybe I'll wait until the beggining of next month to do it hahaha
With your build the deck really wants more black sources. Brutality into Souls requires double black. I feel that you will run into some awkward scenarios where you want to Gideon (WW) or Brut->Souls (BB).
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
I wish I could find room for two Eidolons, but I just don't see how. It seems pretty good against Snapcaster strategies too. I always worry about siding too much in though and watering down the main strategy just because a sideboard card could have some interaction with a particular deck. I'm interested to see how you like the Garruks. I have two in my Gb Elves sideboard. They're my super-secret tech for the grindy MU's and have been all-stars. I am heavily considering taking them for a test spin in place of the Gideons in this deck for tomorrow night's tournament at my LGS. The extra removal is extremely appealing, as well as the much easier mana requirements. I do worry that I won't have as much of a clock when I need it most. Some games just demand a 3-drop beater on turn two, followed up by some serious beats the following turns.
Dang, that's steep. I think you'll like it though. No reason to bother saying it, but the card just covers so many angles. No need to go into why it's played in modern. I will say that it feels really good getting two modes from binning souls, and that it's nice to have redundancy on top of Kitchen Finks and Rhinos for the Burn MU. Also, I've managed a couple of complete blowouts against Infect by Disfigureing their critter, Duressing one of their pumps, and getting two cheap flying blockers, all with two cards and four mana.
I couldn't agree more, and unfortunately I have already run into those scenarios. The mana requirements of this deck are tough... really tough. Abrupt Decay, Anafenza, Voice, double white on Gideon, double black on Brutality/Souls. There are some VERY specific mana requirements. And I for sure need more black sources. I think I'm gonna start with replacing one Temple Garden for a second Godless Shrine. Anyway, the mana is part of my draw to trying out Garruk. I played a singleton Brimaz, King of Oreskos for awhile, but eventually took it out because the double white on a 3-drop was so tough, and I felt I needed another Anafenza for my local meta. Still, Brimaz was an absolute house in this deck. I can't stress that enough. I miss him. He had to go though.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
1. Heavy white with Gideon (and no Brutality). You should still have a single black on turn two or three for Anafenza and Lingering Souls, but you won't need the double black requirements. Mana stays as it is. This means you can use Brimaz (which I was looking for as well).
This is a deck that has a better clock and is more linear. You don't have many angles of attack, but the angles you have are efficient and hit HARD.
This should be your option if facing non-interactive strategies, such as Storm. The deck loses a little bit of % against other rock strategies, but still should be favorable. Humans matchup will be more of a coinflip as well.
2. Heavier on the black sources, with Brutality and Garruk. This means you lose clock, but you have more angles of attack and a better presence in the mid to late game. What you lose in racing, you gain in tempo. Humans is easier, Death Shadow is easier, Rock is a cakewalk. You do lose more to storm and uninteractive strategies.
You take longer to win, but you have less problems reaching that winning state.
I do love the Garruk Relentless. He is rarely irrelevant, and if he flips the turn he goes to the table, you can always tutor a Liege or Rhino to make up for the damage that you would do if he were a Gideon instead. I never lost a game where I could activate Garruk twice. This is pretty big.
It really depends on your local meta. As I have been facing some Enduring Ideal decks online as well as having some 50-50 hard matchups against affinity, I have added two Qasali Pridemages to the maindeck. This is my current decklist, that I'm testing online (unfortunately I had a triple tron matchup yesterday, which is arguably the worst match of all times, so no useful feedback):
PS: Maybe it's because of your mana requirements, but most of the time I fetch Overgrown Tomb. It is the mana that opens the most plays for me turn 1 through 4, I almost never go for Godless Shrine. Also, I think that if I rely too much on a single land to give me both secondary colors, it is a very easy target for hate. I get screwed twofold by losing it.
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Gavony Township
2 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Noble Hierarh
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Siege Rhino
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thoughtseize
2 Stony Silence
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Abrupt Decay
Some thoughts:
1. I really want to put Elspeth in the maindeck. She's gas in most matchups and one of the best topdecks you can ever wish for. I have cut one Wilt-Leaf Liege in lieu of her.
I've moved the Orzhov Pontiff to the sideboard and removed one Smiter for two copies of Anafenza, the Foremost. While we do have some awkwardness of her counters ability and Exalted from Noble Hierarch, she hits hard and randomly screws graveyard shenanigans. It makes our Dredge matchup easier g1, and it is close to 50-50 already.
One less Voice of Resurgence and one Abrupt Decay to the sideboard for the two copies of Qasali Pridemage. This is what I really want to test out, specially vs Affinity, and it is popular right on leagues online. It randomly wins games agains't Enduring Ideal too. It's just a good card overall.
Cards that I want to squeeze in but have no room for:
Collective Brutality - one of the best Rock cards ever printed. I feel, however, that by using it I will want a fourth Lingering Souls and maybe trim down on Path to Exiles. I feel that 13 pieces of removal (counting Garruk Relentless here) is the sweet spot for the deck. Perhaps we want to go higher on a meta filled with Merfolk, Infect and Humans, so that's where I would use it.
Eidolon of Rhetoric - I want a second one and I'm close to cutting Orzhov Pontiff for it. Pontiff is good and tutorable with Garruk, but If I'm tutoring with Garruk, why not Liege or Rhino? Maybe I should cut the Aven Mindcensors though, as I haven't been having much success with them lately. Perhaps it's the lack of matchs against Storm.
Siege Rhino - I could run four and still think that I need more. Such a good card. Currently running one.
Eternal Witness - For those times when I really need Maelstrom Pulse again, or Abrupt Decay or the fourth land drop. You can even tutor her with Garruk, get him back from the grave and play him again. A lot of shenanigans possible with her, but sadly, no room in the deck.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
G1: Bogles 0-2
Turns out our deck is pretty bad agains't Bogles. The lack of Liliana really bites us. We can blowout them if they go for the Daybreak Coronet by breaking their first enchantment, but that wasn't enough for me. Got trampled over by a giant bogle twice.
I don't even remember how I sideboarded against him, because everything was bad. I got annoyed because he laughed in the chat when I lost, which I thought was rude.
Match Total: 0-1
Game Total: 0-2
G2: Affinity
Talk about an intense match.
G1 I mull to 6, leaving one Voice of Resurgence on top, with Turn 1 noble, turn two Stirring Wildwood +Voice. He goes t1 blinkmoth into signal pest.
Turn two he gets ravager and ornipthopter, cranial plating and I draw a bunch of lands. Can't stop the robots.
Sideboarded in: 2 Stony Silence, 1 Zealous Persecution. I take out 3 Voices.
G2 I have a firm grip with Qasali Pridemage and Stony Silence. I get turn 2 Silence, Turn 3 Pridemage and start hammering away him, as his only mana sources were artifact lands and a Mox. I hammered him with Qasali, until he gets a Tear for my Stony Silence. In the same turn, he Thoughtseizes me to find a grip with 2 Path to Exiles, one Abrupt Decay, one Stony Silence and two Lieges. He has the tear for the second silence, but it is too late. The beatdowns got to him.
I figured out he would have Ghirapur Aether Grid, so I sided out two BoPs for two Thoughtseizes.
I keep a hand with Noble, Qasali, Abrupt, Rhino and lands. He starts with Thopter + artifact land into Vault Skirge. This is going to be a problem.
He plays Spire of Industry into Galvanic Blast my Noble. I draw Garruk Relentless for the turn and now I face the decision of playing Qasali Pridemage with no mana open or holding Abrupt Decay and run into the possibility of not doing anything for a turn.
I decide to hold Decay. I'm at 19 life right now and a Cranial Plating could really wreck my day. I also have the nice play of Qasali with mana open into Garruk turn 4, which could possibly wrath his board. He plays Ghirapur, hits with Skirge. I Abrupt the Skirge and he and passes.
Qasali go, he plays Etched Champion with exactly 3 artifacts in play. He then Galvanics my Qasali. I sac Qasali to kill Ornipthopter, he now loses Metalcraft, I play Garruk killing the champion and now I have a pretty good lead: I still have Rhino in hand and 2 lands (could be Lingering Souls ), he has no card in hand and his only threat is double Inkmoth Nexus on the board. He Ghirapur's my Garruk and the deck does what he is designed to do: win the topdeck war. He can't hold his own against Rhino + Smiter on the following turns.
Matches: 1-1
Games: 2-3
G3 Eldrazi Tron
He has turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer into turn 3 Reality Smasher. Then turn 4 Endbringer Fun times.
I side out Abrupt Decay to 2 Thoughtseize. I don't know what the hell to do against this deck.
G2 I start with noble into t2 Smiter. He goes matter reshaper turn 2. T3 I drop another noble and Anafenza. He goes for another Matter Reshaper.
Liege turn 4. He trades both reshapers with Anafenza, but they're exiled.
Natural tron on turn 4, Reality Smasher + Walking Balista, but I Path and he scoops.
G3 is a really grindy match, where he ends drawing way more cards than me thanks to Sea-Gate Wreckage and then Endbringer. I got the chance to close the game if I drew some stuff, but in the end I couldn't draw anything but Forest and other lands.
But hey, I've learned that Reality Smasher is not so good when you have Wilt-Leaf Liege in hand with Path!
Matches: 1-2
Games: 3-5
G4 vs Merfolk
Finally a favorable matchup!
Game one I start with a shaky hand. I have path, push, garruk and lands. I start the game so I just land and go.
He goes with cursecatcher. Hm. I topdeck a BoP and play it, so I can Garruk next turn. Here is the blowout: he plays a lord and attacks with Cursecatcher. I Path to Exile the Lord, with no open mana, so he just sacs the Catcher. No extra land for him.
I then Garruk Relentless the lord and win the tempo and Card Advantage battle. Very hard to come back from that.
I take out 2 Anafenza, as I sense that I won't be attacking too much this game early. +1 Zealous Persecution +1 Abrupt Decay
He mulls to five and I keep a hand with Noble, Birds, Smiter, Path and Lands. Everything I ever wanted.
He can't put up with the turn 2 Smiter, into turn 3 removal and pressure from the deck. I also topdecked more PtEs, Decays and Pushes, sohe just concedes.
Matchs: 2-2
Games: 5-5
Everything tied for the last game!
G5: Mono White Proclamation of Rebirth
I come out really fast g1. Noble -> Smiter -> Liege -> Souls. He has a rather slow hand with Weathered Wayfarer and Kami of False Hope and gets overwhelmed really fast.
He shows me his hand after the first game containing a Proclamation of Rebirth. Well, that helps me sideboard, thank you good sir.
SB out: 3 Pushes, 3 Voices, 2 Smiters. In: 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 2 Nihil Spellbomb and 2 Gaddock Teeg, 2 Thoughtseize
Not sure what the last card was.
Game 2 is draining. He gets his engine going with Martyr of the Sands bumping his life to a lot, Serra Ascendant being a threat and Ghostly Prison holding me down. The deck is decently resilient to the point that I was @ 5min on the clock and still had some chance of winning, but I figured out I would just waste my time. So I conceded, put the Smiters back to the maindeck and decided to race him.
G3 I keep Liege, Teeg, Noble, Birds and lands, one being Gavony Township. This hands looks perfect for a swarm, just missing a Lingering Souls. I will have Teeg to protect me from Wrath of God and I can start hitting him pretty fast.
I play noble, he plays a tapland. I then topdeck Thoughtseize and see Banishing Light, Oblivion Ring, Path to Exile, Disenchant and lands (one being Ghost Quarter). This is going to be a topdeck battle soon if I can't swarm. I make a little mistake here by taking Oblivion Ring. Maybe I should take Path to he wouldn't be able to double removal on his next turn, but I thought "if I topdeck Elspeth I want her to stick".
So I play Teeg and pass. He plays a freshly from the top Squadron Hawk. I topdeck Lingering Souls, play the Souls and Birds, looking for a Liege alpha strike next turn.
He Paths my Liege and Banishing Lights my Teeg, but the damage is done: I now have my dorks and Spirit tokens with Gavony online. He does not manage to find the Wrath of God and we get the W
Matchs: 3-2
Games: 6-5
Overall, positive!
I really liked the current maindeck. One league is not enough of a sample size to take conclusions, but I lost to decks I was supposed to lose and I won against decks I was supposed to win. I still want to find opportunities to use Elspeth, Sun's Champion. I desired to topdeck her a LOT.
Garruk Relentless was a BEAST and got me several wins from his tutor ability. I really felt, however, that I wanted some creature with ETB destroy a permanent or some guy with Haste or Lifelink (Like this or maybe both?[c]) I could really use some of those.
I'm also thinking of adding Fracturing Gust to the sideboard. It is great against affinity and allround answer to both artifacts and enchantments.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
I'm really glad you're liking the deck. They just started alternating Modern and Legacy tournaments on Wednesdays at my LGS, so I didn't get to play on Wednesday this week. I played a modern tournament last night, but ended up running Living End instead. I have three decks built on paper; Gb Elves, Living End, and Abzan Liege. I love playing all three and they're all very equal in strength with me as a pilot. Honestly Living End would probably be my strongest deck if I was a more skillful player. There's a lot more to it than people think. Anyway, I had my first opponent roll a die to see which of the three decks I would run in the tournament last night (it's pretty lax there most of the time, unless it's a big event). Turned out to be LE. I did play my Abzan Liege deck in between rounds and after the tournament with great success though.
Some thoughts and responses:
Anafenza, the Foremost is so good right now. Way better than I initially thought. I wondered when I first included her if she was just a novelty. FAR from it. In addition to making for a great game-one against decks like Dredge, Living End,and Hollow One, she shuts down so many other things. Opposing Voice of Resurgence and Kitchen Finks no longer net any value. She's a must answer. I'm extremely pleased with her. As far as her +1/+1 ability being a nonbo with Exalted, I usually give the counters to a Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise that I've tapped for mana. A few turns of this converts a dork into a threat.
I still haven't gotten to use Garruk Relentless. I'm excited that you've had good luck with him though. I'm still looking forward to trying him out.
Fracturing Gust is the real deal and I think a 2-of would be fine in this deck since we have some decent ramp. I run two with fantastic success in my Gb Elves deck, although it's even better there because Elves ramp so ridiculously well. Though if you start running into a lot of Bogles and Enduring Ideal type decks might I suggest ---Back to Nature--- instead? I use to run it in my Jund deck when Bogles was the exciting new thing in modern. It has a lot more applications than you would think too. It's great against Ponza, Blue Moon, BW Tokens, etc. In fact, Now that I mention it, I might have to add one somewhere in my SB. I've been having trouble with Ponza lately.
I'm having trouble with the Gb Elves MU. Fortunately mine is the only one I've been seeing lately. They're just a little too fast for me to race, and our spot removal isn't as good against them as it is against Gw Elves that runs the combo. Gb is just more resilient. Shaman of the Pack gives them inevitability, and a couple of Lead the Stampedes lets them refill their hand too well. Do you have any suggestions for sweepers that won't kill our stuff too? One Zealous Persecution just isn't enough redundancy, and -1/-1 doesn't kill enough of them, and if they have a lord it doesn't kill any of them.
Keep me updated with how you feel about Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the MB. I'm interested. She's way too high of a CMC to be relevant in some games, but as we've said she just straight up wins others.
There's a couple of Storm decks that have been showing up lately at my LGS, so I may really try to find some room for the second Eidolon of Rhetoric. And as we've stated, she has applications apart from Storm as well.
If you were to take out Aven Mindcensor I fear we wouldn't have ways to deal with non-Eldrazi Tron and Valakut/Titan decks. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
I still really miss my 4th Lingering Souls. I still have to find a another slot for it.
I like Qasali Pridemage a lot. I always have. I used to run GW Hatebears on paper before the vial version got popular online. Pridemage was a maindeck all-star. I actually picked up two of the FNM promos awhile back, but still haven't found a slot for them in the deck. I may consider looking again.
This is all I have time for now. My wife is patiently waiting on my to finish so we can start a movie. I'm looking forward to hearing your responses.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
About Anafenza, yes, she is pretty good. She really feels amazing in the maindeck. I like her way more than Loxodon Smiter right now.
Garruk Relentless is a hidden gem in this format. Really good because of versatility.
While I'm seeing a lot of Bogles online (srsly, had 3 or 4 Bogles just today), I think I prefer Fracturing Gust on the sideboard, as it is another card that we can bring against Affinity. Versus affinity we're generally going to topdeck mode vs topdeck mode and the matchup can end from nowhere if they topdeck a Cranial Plating/c] or Arcbound Ravager with Inkmoth Nexus. They are loaded with threats and Fracturing Gust completely neutralizes these kind of scenarios, specially in the lategame when you have the mana to cast it.
Along with Qasali Pridemages and Abrupt Decay we can have some tricks to hold Bogles down for a while until we can cast it as well. I think, at least. That would be my plan.
If I were to update the deck, I think I would cut both Smiters, add a third Anafenza and a fourth Lingering Souls. Tehn cut the Eidolons from the sideboard and put two Fracturing Gust, based on online meta as of today. Eidolon is good, but the matchups where he is reliable are very few at the moment.
I have been flirting with one-sided wraths, but I don't find any. What actually gave me some room for thought was ditching our smaller creatures and running more Siege Rhino, targeted discard and sweepers, but then again, there's already a thread for The Rock. Abzan Rites would be something like this, I guess.
I won't be playing much Abzan right now, but I'll keep an eye on the thread. It is my "go-to" deck when the meta seem a little more less Tron-y online. I really like playing it, probably more than Twin in the old days. I have to diversify a little bit on the strats if I want to do good in GP São Paulo in July, though.
I hope the movie was good
PS: I have been thinking of Profane Command as a "one sided wrath" effect. Kill their best guy, get back your best creature from the deck or just give fear to all my legal targets and swing for lethal.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
I agree. Loxodon Smiter just really isn't that relevant right now. Not a lot of counterspells going around, at least that care about a play like Smiter. I think that 3-4 Wilt-Leaf Lieges and 3-4 Lingering Souls is plenty of discard hate. I'd suggest the possibility of Doran, the Siege Tower in one of Smiter's slots (some tech from the Junk of old), but he doesn't play very well with our Kitchen Finks. He does however buff our Noble Hierarchs, Birds of Paradise, Stirring Wildwoods, and Siege Rhinos. He also shuts down Cranial Plating and helps us sneak under Ensnaring Bridge. Still, I don't think the Power/Toughness switching shenanigans are enough to make up for the vanillaness of Doran. I'd rather have something that's going to guarantee me some value or give me some strong main deck hate. The old Junk decks that used to run him had Elspeth, Knight-Errant to get him up in the air. A third Anafenza, the Foremost is intriguing. I'd hate to get too loaded down with the legend, but then again she would provide some SERIOUS hate for graveyard strategies. I would feel a little mistreated if I showed up to play some Living End and someone had 3 main deck Anafenzas. I'll be thinking hard about prospects for the 3 cmc slot. They're extremely important in this deck. There's a lot of times we need them to come down on turn-2 and hit HARD to put enough pressure on.
The Affinity MU feels pretty good already. We have a lot of solid spot removal backed by Stony Silence and Zealous Persecution in the board. Lingering Souls is great here too. Of course it's Affinity and sometimes they just get the right hand and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
I appreciate the dialogue. It's been helpful. It has also been encouraging to know I'm not the only one out there who loves this deck. If the meta's not right though, the meta's not right. Although it does seem very healthy and diverse right now, at least from my angle, I wish the BGx decks would come back. They're some of my favorite decks to play and play against. I hate to see them absent from their rightful place at the table.
I'm going to keep running this deck at my LGS though as the environment there is a little more favorable for it, and I'll be testing out all the cards we've been discussing. It'll have to share time with Living End though. I love that deck and I really want to get good at piloting it. There's so much more to it than people think.
By the way, what deck/decks will you be running online in the meantime?
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Abzan Liege might not be the best choice right now but it can be a force to be reckoned with depending on the meta. I feel that GP São Paulo will feature a lot of Burn. It will really depend if Bx decks are in the meta for my decision. I'm glad I have a comrade in arms to help develop the deck
Doran is certainly interesting tech. I will keep it in mind.
Currently I'm thinking of three possible decks:
1. UR Storm, which I have some past piloting it. I don't like having a huge target on my back, though.
2. Mono Blue Living End. This deck surprised me with its consistency and odd angle of attack. Living End is a VERY swingy card and 4Cryptic Command helps a lot vs Ramp decks, which are Abzan's weaknesses.
3. Taking Turns. Just is more a casual choice, but I just love looping turns around and the deck looks good vs most matchups. Even the burn MU is not as bad as it seems. Though most of this choice is my Rogue deck preference speaking out.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
It's just not going to be a tier 1 deck in the form that this thread is about (Siege Rhino + Wilt-Leaf Liege).
There's some flexibility... Thalia, Voice, and Finks can all be swapped around and/or replaced with something else based on a meta call.
Basically, this version I feel is a generic "I feel like playing Rhinos today" deck where it's going to be fine in an unknown meta. You'll have a fighting chance against any deck.
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Siege Rhino
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Blooming Marsh
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Gavony Township
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Abrupt Decay
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
I believe so as well, though I have not played this deck in any form yet, since I lack the Hierarchs. That said, half of my Abzan deck now needs a new home, and it seems to me that VoR, Lingering Souls, Loxodon Smiter and Kitchen Finks is a good way to attack both Control and Jund.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Anafenza, the Foremost
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Loxodon Smiter
2x Noble Hierarch
4x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
4x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
Instant (5)
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
2x Path to Exile
Artifact (1)
1x Mimic Vat
2x Choke
3x Duress
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Stony Silence
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
I was wondering about 2x thalias MB, but Im still waiting until the meta estabilize a little bit more. I took out 2 paths to put 2 thoughtseize MB, thinking about increasing the number of discards MB too.
tl;dr: I'm excited.
Hmmm... I hadn't even considered Thalia, Heretic Cathar in the three-drop slot. What's our angle there? Why her over other cards? She seems good, I'm just interested to hear your reasoning.
Sigarda, Host of Herons seems solid and I've considered her before. Her anti-sac is good against Liliana of the Veil, but then again we're already great against Lili and they're sure to side her out after game one. She's great against Living End, but it would be a race to get her out before they could cascade, especially with Simian Spirit Guide. Protects against All is Dust too. Of course she's also a monster 5/5 flyer that can't be shot down by kill spells, and gets a huge boost from WLL and even makes good use of exalted triggers.
If we're expecting a lot of control and BGx, why would we want to take out Gideon, Ally of Zendikar? I know I don't.
I do agree about possibly wanting some targeted discard again in the form of Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize. An overload of removal is really bad against control. Still, where do we want and how do we split our removal and discard?
Hopefully we can get an updated article by Thomas Snodgrass on mtg.one
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I don’t know about y’all, but that’s my kind of sideboard card. I am currently trying to find a SB slot for it in Jund as well. Whadaya think?
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB