It looks like a good take off point and it contains the utility staples and the the Naya manabase aswell. It has a lot of upgrade potential!
With that in mind, Birds of Paradise instead of Noble Hierarch is totally fine.
I'm not quite sure if Lingering Souls has a place in the deck though. Those could be swapped with some other three drop to cascade into.
Any chance I could get a bit of help from you with the following question? I have one modern deck, but am looking for something a bit more competitive than what I play now. I really liked playing zoo on mtgo and with the unbanning of bbe, it seems the deck got a good boost. I've been eyeing the following list:
Since I don't have much modern cards, I could build it over a couple of months, but Hierarchs are totally out of question for now until the next reprint. Would you mind commenting, how much of competitiveness would the deck lose if I swap Hierarchs for Birds? I know that mana fixing + exalted of the hierarch has no alternatives in Modern, but would it lose say only 10-15% of the potential, and I could still be playing it comfortably, or it is better not to try it at all, unless I have all the cards? And I am sure I would get the Hierarchs within a year or with the next reprint, just not now.
It's a good starting point. It will be totally playable with birds. As someone who has done some testing renegade rallier isn't very good neither is lingering souls in zoo. Take a look at other good 3 drops in our colors like tireless tracker, loxodon smiter, kitchen Finks, and others.
Interested in playing zoo but my meta is becoming a little Jund heavy. Should I even consider zoo? Is there a build that matches up decently against Jund? My understanding is that zoo often folds to Jund...
Wanted to bring up dromoka's command again quickly (I mentioned it a few pages ago).
I've been playing a lot this week on MTGO, with 2 dromoka's command in an otherwise pretty normal build. I have been continuously impressed with how powerful its been.
Just played a league where command provided me with three separate game-breaking blowouts. Making a smuggler's copter a 4/4 in response to a bolt, while simultaneously fighting and killing a TITI about to flip. Or edicting UW off a dsphere to free two voices. Or completely wrecking my taxes opponent's combat math.
I know these seem like Christmas-land scenarios... but they keep happening. Against good opponents on real decks.
I know it seems "too cute", or just less consistent than helix or path. I'm not going to claim I'm correct (might just be getting lucky). But next time you cast one of those other spells, stop for a second and see if dromoka's would have been any good. Let me know if you have results either way.
Wanted to bring up dromoka's command again quickly (I mentioned it a few pages ago).
I've been playing a lot this week on MTGO, with 2 dromoka's command in an otherwise pretty normal build. I have been continuously impressed with how powerful its been.
Just played a league where command provided me with three separate game-breaking blowouts. Making a smuggler's copter a 4/4 in response to a bolt, while simultaneously fighting and killing a TITI about to flip. Or edicting UW off a dsphere to free two voices. Or completely wrecking my taxes opponent's combat math.
I know these seem like Christmas-land scenarios... but they keep happening. Against good opponents on real decks.
I know it seems "too cute", or just less consistent than helix or path. I'm not going to claim I'm correct (might just be getting lucky). But next time you cast one of those other spells, stop for a second and see if dromoka's would have been any good. Let me know if you have results either way.
Command got way... way less good when push was printed. Thats my concern. Im not saying its not good... i love modal cards. But it had 3 modes in the past. Enchant sac is a .5, fight is a 1, counter is a .5, removal counter was 1.
Push and path are now the bulk of removal, bolt isnt as unanimous as it was. So its now got "2.5 modes" 1, .5, .5, .5. Its not as good as it used to be. The modes arent aging well.
Atarkas for example has 3 solid modes all the time and will age well because they are good in a vacuum not meta dependent. Cryptic has 4 and ages well. Same with abraid even.
After playing Bant Knightfall and having a playset Bloodbraid Elf I gave Naya Zoo a try. This is my list - The sideboard is on the head so it's not 100% accurate:
First of all the lacking of Tarmogoyf - no moneyz fo dat - also I think it's better in BGx shells because they're running more Sorceries and your opponent discards other types in the yard. Scavenging Ooze - my Goyf "replacement". Everytime I untapped with Ooze it won me the game. Bloodbraid Elf - holy cow! The worst hit was a Noble Hierarch but that's ok as we get a Exalted trigger, mana and another body. Bloodbraid was also good against UWx decks because my opponent had to decide which spell he wants to counter. Really good card! Loxodon Smiter - put 4 copies in the main in expectation of UWx, Jund and one guy playing 8-Rack I don't want to lose to - Boltproof body was sometimes better on turn 2 then a Knight of the Reliquary. Against aggrodecks it was a solid blocker!
What was no that good?
No card draw. Unfortunately the +1 is only look at the top card. A scry would be just insane. Tireless Tracker is a good card but for now I'm not sold on Tracker instead of Smiter
Tron: got badly beat up by tron Bant Knightfall gave me Reflector Mage which I'm missing. Maybe put some Molten Rain in the board to cascade in.
No basic Mountain: it cost me a game against UWR Control... added one basic mountain in my list
Lightning Helix was in fact the "worst card" in the deck. I would consider this as my flexslots - I'll try 2x Atarka's Command or 2x Boros Charm... closing out games with burn is just to good!
I have to build a propper sideboard. What would you recommend against Token/go-wide strategies like UR Pyromancer or Elves. Are 4 Bolts enough to handle them or is a "mass removal" needed?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: 5c Humans//Devoted Company
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
After playing Bant Knightfall and having a playset Bloodbraid Elf I gave Naya Zoo a try. This is my list - The sideboard is on the head so it's not 100% accurate:
First of all the lacking of Tarmogoyf - no moneyz fo dat - also I think it's better in BGx shells because they're running more Sorceries and your opponent discards other types in the yard. Scavenging Ooze - my Goyf "replacement". Everytime I untapped with Ooze it won me the game. Bloodbraid Elf - holy cow! The worst hit was a Noble Hierarch but that's ok as we get a Exalted trigger, mana and another body. Bloodbraid was also good against UWx decks because my opponent had to decide which spell he wants to counter. Really good card! Loxodon Smiter - put 4 copies in the main in expectation of UWx, Jund and one guy playing 8-Rack I don't want to lose to - Boltproof body was sometimes better on turn 2 then a Knight of the Reliquary. Against aggrodecks it was a solid blocker!
What was no that good?
No card draw. Unfortunately the +1 is only look at the top card. A scry would be just insane. Tireless Tracker is a good card but for now I'm not sold on Tracker instead of Smiter
Tron: got badly beat up by tron Bant Knightfall gave me Reflector Mage which I'm missing. Maybe put some Molten Rain in the board to cascade in.
No basic Mountain: it cost me a game against UWR Control... added one basic mountain in my list
Lightning Helix was in fact the "worst card" in the deck. I would consider this as my flexslots - I'll try 2x Atarka's Command or 2x Boros Charm... closing out games with burn is just to good!
I have to build a propper sideboard. What would you recommend against Token/go-wide strategies like UR Pyromancer or Elves. Are 4 Bolts enough to handle them or is a "mass removal" needed?
Bolts, helix, paths plus a couple grim lavamancers and I like a1 of flame jabto pair with kotr all do the trick vs elves and other swarm strategies.
You can also consider 1-2 Domri Rade for "removal" and "card draw"
They had Nissa, Vital Force, which drew them a bunch of cards after ultimating (like 1-2 per turn) and won them a 3rd grindy game. Seems like a legit sideboard card for more grindy matchups where card draw is crucial.
There are a lot of 5 mana spells that will win you the game when the board state is at parity.
Not suggesting that your observations aren't correct, just that 5 mana is a ton of mana in modern and, hopefully, any 5 mana spell that has enough time to have an impact will win you the game.
Anyone who is playing the Tribal Flames list with Kird Ape, Nacatl and all the burn?
That build has been super popular lately and seems to be doing well at larger events. Not my cup of tea and I went running back to my rhinos after giving bbe a shot.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Been taking a more aggressive slant to Big Zoo with BBE recently.
If you read old CoCo lists, you'll notice that this is a typical trend for me as a player -- it's a bias but one that I think is founded. A slow and plodding Zoo deck is simply not that great.
Rabblemaster is a great way to fight through spot removal. So much removal being played at Sorcery speed means that nobody can afford to play around Ghor-Clan.
Ramunap Ruins is a great way to provide reach in MUs where you can't push a Knight through in a single turn (yknow, the ones where you both need to be able to attack with Knight and activate it all in the same turn? yeah, i get those too). When you think about Jund, Grixis, and the race to the bottom, sometimes shock for 5 mana is enough. Playing a basic mountain is awful. But I can settle for a mountain with an activated ability.
Lantern is correct. Molten Rain is bananas right now. I'll even bring in 1-2 against Jund as it's a great way to pick off manlands and Lilianas in a single turn.
edit: Guess it wasn't Lantern? I'd have to review thread history to see the proposal.
Been taking a more aggressive slant to Big Zoo with BBE recently.
If you read old CoCo lists, you'll notice that this is a typical trend for me as a player -- it's a bias but one that I think is founded. A slow and plodding Zoo deck is simply not that great.
Rabblemaster is a great way to fight through spot removal. So much removal being played at Sorcery speed means that nobody can afford to play around Ghor-Clan.
Ramunap Ruins is a great way to provide reach in MUs where you can't push a Knight through in a single turn (yknow, the ones where you both need to be able to attack with Knight and activate it all in the same turn? yeah, i get those too). When you think about Jund, Grixis, and the race to the bottom, sometimes shock for 5 mana is enough. Playing a basic mountain is awful. But I can settle for a mountain with an activated ability.
Lantern is correct. Molten Rain is bananas right now. I'll even bring in 1-2 against Jund as it's a great way to pick off manlands and Lilianas in a single turn.
edit: Guess it wasn't Lantern? I'd have to review thread history to see the proposal.
Ramunap Ruins seems to be hawtness. I've been thinking of testing out Helix and Rabbles in the main. Molten Rain last night was absolute bananas though, you guys were right. I do wonder if your third helix is that much better than the 1st Domri.
5 mana for a shock is too much for me. #i miss barbarian ring
What are you shocking anyways? Face or dude? Ive used arena before as a knightable land against dudes.
Face.
It can redirect to walkers. It can't shoot creatures.
With BBE, I've found myself burning my opponents out much more often. Ruins just lets you be somewhat redundant with that gameplan.
5 mana for a shock is fine because it's a mountain with downside in instances where you just need to cast your spells.
Against Jund, which I've gotten a lot of reps in against recently, you often just leave their bobs in play, dome their face, swing in when they get aggressive, hope they don't draw scavenging ooze, and hope their bob flips are bad.
______________________________
The 3rd Helix is better than the 1st Domri because Domri is really only good against Jace decks. Helix gives you game against other people trying to cheese you with Affinity, Burn, or other linear strategies.
I previously played Domri because of the interaction with Rhonas and Hazoret. Here there is even less incentive to run him.
Bloodbraid Elf into Mantis Rider is bonkers! But is the splash of blue (and black!) really worth the hassle over Naya? What if the LD theme pops up? I have two ponza players in my inner circle who give me headache sometimes
With that in mind, Birds of Paradise instead of Noble Hierarch is totally fine.
I'm not quite sure if Lingering Souls has a place in the deck though. Those could be swapped with some other three drop to cascade into.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
It's a good starting point. It will be totally playable with birds. As someone who has done some testing renegade rallier isn't very good neither is lingering souls in zoo. Take a look at other good 3 drops in our colors like tireless tracker, loxodon smiter, kitchen Finks, and others.
Interested in playing zoo but my meta is becoming a little Jund heavy. Should I even consider zoo? Is there a build that matches up decently against Jund? My understanding is that zoo often folds to Jund...
Thanks!
I've been playing a lot this week on MTGO, with 2 dromoka's command in an otherwise pretty normal build. I have been continuously impressed with how powerful its been.
Just played a league where command provided me with three separate game-breaking blowouts. Making a smuggler's copter a 4/4 in response to a bolt, while simultaneously fighting and killing a TITI about to flip. Or edicting UW off a dsphere to free two voices. Or completely wrecking my taxes opponent's combat math.
I know these seem like Christmas-land scenarios... but they keep happening. Against good opponents on real decks.
I know it seems "too cute", or just less consistent than helix or path. I'm not going to claim I'm correct (might just be getting lucky). But next time you cast one of those other spells, stop for a second and see if dromoka's would have been any good. Let me know if you have results either way.
Try something like my build i posted earlier. The more sticky and good vs 1 for 2 removal the better your matchup gets
Command got way... way less good when push was printed. Thats my concern. Im not saying its not good... i love modal cards. But it had 3 modes in the past. Enchant sac is a .5, fight is a 1, counter is a .5, removal counter was 1.
Push and path are now the bulk of removal, bolt isnt as unanimous as it was. So its now got "2.5 modes" 1, .5, .5, .5. Its not as good as it used to be. The modes arent aging well.
Atarkas for example has 3 solid modes all the time and will age well because they are good in a vacuum not meta dependent. Cryptic has 4 and ages well. Same with abraid even.
After playing Bant Knightfall and having a playset Bloodbraid Elf I gave Naya Zoo a try. This is my list - The sideboard is on the head so it's not 100% accurate:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wild Nacatl
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Loxodon Smiter
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Bloodbraid Elf
Spells:
2x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
1x Domri Rade
2x Stomping Ground
2x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
3x Forest
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Stony Silence
2x Choke
1x Path to Exile
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Pyroclasm
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
First of all the lacking of Tarmogoyf - no moneyz fo dat - also I think it's better in BGx shells because they're running more Sorceries and your opponent discards other types in the yard.
Scavenging Ooze - my Goyf "replacement". Everytime I untapped with Ooze it won me the game.
Bloodbraid Elf - holy cow! The worst hit was a Noble Hierarch but that's ok as we get a Exalted trigger, mana and another body. Bloodbraid was also good against UWx decks because my opponent had to decide which spell he wants to counter. Really good card!
Loxodon Smiter - put 4 copies in the main in expectation of UWx, Jund and one guy playing 8-Rack I don't want to lose to - Boltproof body was sometimes better on turn 2 then a Knight of the Reliquary. Against aggrodecks it was a solid blocker!
What was no that good?
No card draw. Unfortunately the +1 is only look at the top card. A scry would be just insane. Tireless Tracker is a good card but for now I'm not sold on Tracker instead of Smiter
Tron: got badly beat up by tron Bant Knightfall gave me Reflector Mage which I'm missing. Maybe put some Molten Rain in the board to cascade in.
No basic Mountain: it cost me a game against UWR Control... added one basic mountain in my list
Lightning Helix was in fact the "worst card" in the deck. I would consider this as my flexslots - I'll try 2x Atarka's Command or 2x Boros Charm... closing out games with burn is just to good!
I have to build a propper sideboard. What would you recommend against Token/go-wide strategies like UR Pyromancer or Elves. Are 4 Bolts enough to handle them or is a "mass removal" needed?
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
Bolts, helix, paths plus a couple grim lavamancers and I like a1 of flame jabto pair with kotr all do the trick vs elves and other swarm strategies.
You can also consider 1-2 Domri Rade for "removal" and "card draw"
There are a lot of 5 mana spells that will win you the game when the board state is at parity.
Not suggesting that your observations aren't correct, just that 5 mana is a ton of mana in modern and, hopefully, any 5 mana spell that has enough time to have an impact will win you the game.
Personally, I prefer mid-range top-end that, when resolved in a midrange/control battle, will win the game in 1-3 turns. See evasive beaters like Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, Stormbreath Dragon, Thundermaw Hellkite, etc.
Alternatively, the best way to win a board stall or grindy games, is to untap with Knight of the Reliquary. She only costs 1WG too!
That build has been super popular lately and seems to be doing well at larger events. Not my cup of tea and I went running back to my rhinos after giving bbe a shot.
Tribal Zoo video series
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Mantis Rider
4 Spell Queller
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Instants (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mutagenic Growth
Lands (22)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Unified Will
3 Reflector Mage
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Stony Silence
2 Kozilek’s Return
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Any reason why Mutagenic Growth is better than Vines of Vastwood, other than that Mutagenic is a free spell?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Voice of Resurgence
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Goblin Rabblemaster
2x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Helix
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
2x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Treetop Village
1x Ramunap Ruins
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Molten Rain
1x Choke
2x Destructive Revelry
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Stony Silence
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Path to Exile
1x Boros Charm
Been taking a more aggressive slant to Big Zoo with BBE recently.
If you read old CoCo lists, you'll notice that this is a typical trend for me as a player -- it's a bias but one that I think is founded. A slow and plodding Zoo deck is simply not that great.
Rabblemaster is a great way to fight through spot removal. So much removal being played at Sorcery speed means that nobody can afford to play around Ghor-Clan.
Ramunap Ruins is a great way to provide reach in MUs where you can't push a Knight through in a single turn (yknow, the ones where you both need to be able to attack with Knight and activate it all in the same turn? yeah, i get those too). When you think about Jund, Grixis, and the race to the bottom, sometimes shock for 5 mana is enough. Playing a basic mountain is awful. But I can settle for a mountain with an activated ability.
Lantern is correct. Molten Rain is bananas right now. I'll even bring in 1-2 against Jund as it's a great way to pick off manlands and Lilianas in a single turn.
edit: Guess it wasn't Lantern? I'd have to review thread history to see the proposal.
Between Spreading Seas, Search for Azcanta, and boggles, I've upped my Destructive Revelry count.
Ramunap Ruins seems to be hawtness. I've been thinking of testing out Helix and Rabbles in the main. Molten Rain last night was absolute bananas though, you guys were right. I do wonder if your third helix is that much better than the 1st Domri.
Need a collection tracker? Use EchoMTG here: https://www.echomtg.com/r/7bb6961d/
Join the Zoo Discord: https://discord.gg/Yu6eTSTrzA
What are you shocking anyways? Face or dude? Ive used arena before as a knightable land against dudes.
Face.
It can redirect to walkers. It can't shoot creatures.
With BBE, I've found myself burning my opponents out much more often. Ruins just lets you be somewhat redundant with that gameplan.
5 mana for a shock is fine because it's a mountain with downside in instances where you just need to cast your spells.
Against Jund, which I've gotten a lot of reps in against recently, you often just leave their bobs in play, dome their face, swing in when they get aggressive, hope they don't draw scavenging ooze, and hope their bob flips are bad.
______________________________
The 3rd Helix is better than the 1st Domri because Domri is really only good against Jace decks. Helix gives you game against other people trying to cheese you with Affinity, Burn, or other linear strategies.
I previously played Domri because of the interaction with Rhonas and Hazoret. Here there is even less incentive to run him.
If I played a PW in the MD right now I think it would be Elspeth, Knight-Errant.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -