How have you been liking the basics? Don't want Dryad Arbor?
I play 32 creatures and only 18 lands, so I need to be able to fetch a land and tap it. T1 Dryad Arbor doesn't do anything. T2 Dryad Arbor means I can only cast a 1drop. T3 Dryad Arbor means I can't play a Bushwhacker unless I have BTEs. If I play it T1 and need it for mana T2 or T3, it's a worse Forest.
Caleb Durward posted a new iteration of Landfall Rallier on CFB, but still with 24 lands. I think that's too much for a deck that tops on 3CMC. 22 should be fine for it. But this list seems a little better than his first one.
Durwald's list is interesting but not where I'd take it.
Going lower to the ground and trying to be faster just means that your already fast midrange deck is marginally faster -- where as a half turn% won't that significant of a difference. Narnam Renegade in a go-tall aggro deck? No thanks.
The original list is already excellent with a good curve and explosive draws. I've found that you can still race Affinity. Landfall Zoo transforms excellently into a grindy midrange deck with walkers and 5 drops.
24 lands lets you consistently have a t3 Revolted Rallier and have consistent triggers for your landfall beaters, which is why the deck plays so many lands (there are, in fact, few things worse than a 0/1 Lynx when you move to combat). It also lets you SB into a bigger deck, which Chandras, Gideons, Dragons, etc.
Maybe Qasali Pridemage can make the MD cut over some Goyfs or something but I seriously find this unlikely. While not aggressive against combo decks, Goyf is still the most efficient card you can play in a lot of MUs.
So since aether revolt there has been exactly 4 zoo decks in the top preformers. Gruul zoo takes 3 spots, company takes another. Only 1 ralliers in a company list and in a gruul list.
Narnam Renegade is a 4 off in 2 out of 3 of the gruul lists, taking off 2 drops rather than 1 drops to lower the curve and up the good experiment one chance.
Hidden Herbalists has shown up in 1 gruul zoo as a 4 of.
So overall, these cards havent impacted the deck all that much. Notiably, rallier has impacted chord lists a ton. And landfall zoo is no where to be seen.
Id say Narnam Renegade was the best card for zoo because it makes experiment one stronger.
How the cards didn't impact much Zoo?
Before they got out, we were barely making results, now the deck starts showing again on top positions using Narnam Renegades and, to a lesser extent, HH and Ralliers.
Ralliers are good in bigger Zoos to give more mid/late game potential as a grinding tool.
HH adds explosiveness to Grull.
Narnam is one of the best 1 drops released in the last year or more.
Narnam is already a staple in the deck, and as times passes by and results show up, I guess HH will also prove to be a staple.
How the cards didn't impact much Zoo?
Before they got out, we were barely making results, now the deck starts showing again on top positions using Narnam Renegades and, to a lesser extent, HH and Ralliers.
Ralliers are good in bigger Zoos to give more mid/late game potential as a grinding tool.
HH adds explosiveness to Grull.
Narnam is one of the best 1 drops released in the last year or more.
Narnam is already a staple in the deck, and as times passes by and results show up, I guess HH will also prove to be a staple.
I think results are more related to the Dredge/Infect nerfs than our pluses.
How the cards didn't impact much Zoo?
Before they got out, we were barely making results, now the deck starts showing again on top positions using Narnam Renegades and, to a lesser extent, HH and Ralliers.
Ralliers are good in bigger Zoos to give more mid/late game potential as a grinding tool.
HH adds explosiveness to Grull.
Narnam is one of the best 1 drops released in the last year or more.
Narnam is already a staple in the deck, and as times passes by and results show up, I guess HH will also prove to be a staple.
I think results are more related to the Dredge/Infect nerfs than our pluses.
Were there Zoo decks 5-0ing on MTGO after the bans and before AER release? I didn't follow those weeks closely
How the cards didn't impact much Zoo?
Before they got out, we were barely making results, now the deck starts showing again on top positions using Narnam Renegades and, to a lesser extent, HH and Ralliers.
Ralliers are good in bigger Zoos to give more mid/late game potential as a grinding tool.
HH adds explosiveness to Grull.
Narnam is one of the best 1 drops released in the last year or more.
Narnam is already a staple in the deck, and as times passes by and results show up, I guess HH will also prove to be a staple.
I think results are more related to the Dredge/Infect nerfs than our pluses.
Were there Zoo decks 5-0ing on MTGO after the bans and before AER release? I didn't follow those weeks closely
I wish MTGGoldfish hadn't removed all of their pre-ban data. It was still useful to see even if it were excluded from their metagame calculations.
That one 5-0 list is interesting. They're on 19 lands and 0 Kird Apes, playing Ghor-Clans, Flinthoofs, and 1 Devastating Summons instead. I prefer Mutagenics to the Devastating Summons, though. It goes heavier on green with Flinthoof and it can evolve E1 to 3 just like Kird Ape can. I think adding 2 drops definitely pushes toward 19 lands.
Well first off. Just because the deck doesnt do extremely well because of dredge nerf (which thats not the reason. The deck should do better.) It still matters. Zoo has always suffered because control was bad in modern. If junk is now amazing, it still means zoo isnt all that great of a choice.
As far as % goes. Zoo is occupying the same % as before, so that hasnt really changed.
I think Hidden Herbalist is the most important card that small zoo got in Aether Revolt, with an impact nearly as high as the bans, and also that MTGO data the first week or two after release is not very good for answering this question. It's information, but not super strong. I've seen a lot of hate for Herbalist in various places - lots of people seem to think we have no use for free green mana. The main exceptions are this forum and Ryan Overturf. So I imagine a lot of zoo players aren't even trying the card. Renegade helps the deck too obviously, in particular in conjunction with Herbalist, but Herbalist is definitely the all star.
Cutting Kird Ape for Boar is an interesting take. My main reservation is that the fewer one drops we have, the fewer opening hands we have with one drops. That list is on 16 ones, I'm on 18, and I believe elconquistador is on 20. With 16, you have about a 10% chance of not having a one drop in your opening 7. It's about 7% with 18 and 5% with 20. I'm inclined to leave Boar on the sidelines for now because 10% is starting to make me unconfortable, but I don't think it's categorically wrong.
Devastating Summons is one that I definitely don't like. It's occasionally busted, but it's often a very poor draw. You don't want to sac your lands against any of the fair decks because the game will go somewhat long if you don't nut draw them. Not having Kird Ape in the deck does make it look a little better though, and there is a bit of synergy with the revolt creatures. But my experience with the card in these shells suggests it's too inconsistent and is often win-more when it's good.
I think Hidden Herbalist is the most important card that small zoo got in Aether Revolt, with an impact nearly as high as the bans, and also that MTGO data the first week or two after release is not very good for answering this question. It's information, but not super strong. I've seen a lot of hate for Herbalist in various places - lots of people seem to think we have no use for free green mana. The main exceptions are this forum and Ryan Overturf. So I imagine a lot of zoo players aren't even trying the card. Renegade helps the deck too obviously, in particular in conjunction with Herbalist, but Herbalist is definitely the all star.
Cutting Kird Ape for Boar is an interesting take. My main reservation is that the fewer one drops we have, the fewer opening hands we have with one drops. That list is on 16 ones, I'm on 18, and I believe elconquistador is on 20. With 16, you have about a 10% chance of not having a one drop in your opening 7. It's about 7% with 18 and 5% with 20. I'm inclined to leave Boar on the sidelines for now because 10% is starting to make me unconfortable, but I don't think it's categorically wrong.
Devastating Summons is one that I definitely don't like. It's occasionally busted, but it's often a very poor draw. You don't want to sac your lands against any of the fair decks because the game will go somewhat long if you don't nut draw them. Not having Kird Ape in the deck does make it look a little better though, and there is a bit of synergy with the revolt creatures. But my experience with the card in these shells suggests it's too inconsistent and is often win-more when it's good.
I agree that there's been a lot of hate for Herbalist. I saw threads pop up on reddit about it, and the response is "nope, trash, doesn't cast Bushwhacker".
You're right that I'm on 20 1-drops currently. I'm not sure what I'd want to cut to fit in Boars. I think if you play Boars, you have to play 19 lands. Maybe I could cut 2 Apes and 1 Mutagenic for 2 Boars and 1 land. It makes Herbalists more relevant. I've sometimes felt like sequencing in order to maximize power on board has been slightly awkward for me, and maybe that's due to too much red.
I agree on Summons. You're either way ahead such that it doesn't matter or it's not enough to matter and you've sacrificed lands and you're still behind. I much prefer Mutagenic Growth, if only because it saves a creature from a Lightning Bolt in addition to being a blowout.
I think I like how that list cut the mountain for a Stomping Ground though (relative to lists running one of each shock + Mountain + Forest). I'm probably going to try that tonight. My MD will actually look exactly like that list, except one green fetch instead of a Mire, Muta instead of Summons, and Apes instead of Boars. Mostly trying some things. I might even try the Boars... but probably not.
I think I like how that list cut the mountain for a Stomping Ground though (relative to lists running one of each shock + Mountain + Forest). I'm probably going to try that tonight. My MD will actually look exactly like that list, except one green fetch instead of a Mire, Muta instead of Summons, and Apes instead of Boars. Mostly trying some things. I might even try the Boars... but probably not.
It's playing 14 fetches, I believe. I think you wouldn't want to cut the mountain unless you were very heavy on green with the Boars. I assume the Mires were a concession because they don't have green fetches. I might give 2 Apes 2 Boars 1 Mutagenic and 19 lands a shot, though I'd play 13 fetches and 2 Stomping Grounds.
I saw it's on 14 fetches, and that's what I'm planning on running. I think cutting the mountain might be fine without the boars. It's worse in some spots, like when you want both basics vs burn or you get path'd twice, but having another fetch for revolt is good in every matchup. Worth trying, at least.
This is a nut draw deck. I think the 10 damage offered by Summons, 3 lands, and Bushwhacker merits its consideration. I don't know if it will make the cut, but it does increase the number of nut draws we have and does offer flood insurance.
This is a nut draw deck. I think the 10 damage offered by Summons, 3 lands, and Bushwhacker merits its consideration. I don't know if it will make the cut, but it does increase the number of nut draws we have and does offer flood insurance.
The "lol... Remand" means that Devastating Summons is really bad.
What % of the meta has remand for that to even be relevant? Even if it is a high percentage, you don't let the counterspell deck play that game. They have to answer your board. Summons is also a very good follow-up to a Wrath effects.
I play 32 creatures and only 18 lands, so I need to be able to fetch a land and tap it. T1 Dryad Arbor doesn't do anything. T2 Dryad Arbor means I can only cast a 1drop. T3 Dryad Arbor means I can't play a Bushwhacker unless I have BTEs. If I play it T1 and need it for mana T2 or T3, it's a worse Forest.
Durwald's list is interesting but not where I'd take it.
Going lower to the ground and trying to be faster just means that your already fast midrange deck is marginally faster -- where as a half turn% won't that significant of a difference. Narnam Renegade in a go-tall aggro deck? No thanks.
The original list is already excellent with a good curve and explosive draws. I've found that you can still race Affinity. Landfall Zoo transforms excellently into a grindy midrange deck with walkers and 5 drops.
24 lands lets you consistently have a t3 Revolted Rallier and have consistent triggers for your landfall beaters, which is why the deck plays so many lands (there are, in fact, few things worse than a 0/1 Lynx when you move to combat). It also lets you SB into a bigger deck, which Chandras, Gideons, Dragons, etc.
Maybe Qasali Pridemage can make the MD cut over some Goyfs or something but I seriously find this unlikely. While not aggressive against combo decks, Goyf is still the most efficient card you can play in a lot of MUs.
Narnam Renegade is a 4 off in 2 out of 3 of the gruul lists, taking off 2 drops rather than 1 drops to lower the curve and up the good experiment one chance.
Hidden Herbalists has shown up in 1 gruul zoo as a 4 of.
So overall, these cards havent impacted the deck all that much. Notiably, rallier has impacted chord lists a ton. And landfall zoo is no where to be seen.
Id say Narnam Renegade was the best card for zoo because it makes experiment one stronger.
Before they got out, we were barely making results, now the deck starts showing again on top positions using Narnam Renegades and, to a lesser extent, HH and Ralliers.
Ralliers are good in bigger Zoos to give more mid/late game potential as a grinding tool.
HH adds explosiveness to Grull.
Narnam is one of the best 1 drops released in the last year or more.
Narnam is already a staple in the deck, and as times passes by and results show up, I guess HH will also prove to be a staple.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
I think results are more related to the Dredge/Infect nerfs than our pluses.
Were there Zoo decks 5-0ing on MTGO after the bans and before AER release? I didn't follow those weeks closely
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
I wish MTGGoldfish hadn't removed all of their pre-ban data. It was still useful to see even if it were excluded from their metagame calculations.
That one 5-0 list is interesting. They're on 19 lands and 0 Kird Apes, playing Ghor-Clans, Flinthoofs, and 1 Devastating Summons instead. I prefer Mutagenics to the Devastating Summons, though. It goes heavier on green with Flinthoof and it can evolve E1 to 3 just like Kird Ape can. I think adding 2 drops definitely pushes toward 19 lands.
As far as % goes. Zoo is occupying the same % as before, so that hasnt really changed.
Cutting Kird Ape for Boar is an interesting take. My main reservation is that the fewer one drops we have, the fewer opening hands we have with one drops. That list is on 16 ones, I'm on 18, and I believe elconquistador is on 20. With 16, you have about a 10% chance of not having a one drop in your opening 7. It's about 7% with 18 and 5% with 20. I'm inclined to leave Boar on the sidelines for now because 10% is starting to make me unconfortable, but I don't think it's categorically wrong.
Devastating Summons is one that I definitely don't like. It's occasionally busted, but it's often a very poor draw. You don't want to sac your lands against any of the fair decks because the game will go somewhat long if you don't nut draw them. Not having Kird Ape in the deck does make it look a little better though, and there is a bit of synergy with the revolt creatures. But my experience with the card in these shells suggests it's too inconsistent and is often win-more when it's good.
I agree that there's been a lot of hate for Herbalist. I saw threads pop up on reddit about it, and the response is "nope, trash, doesn't cast Bushwhacker".
You're right that I'm on 20 1-drops currently. I'm not sure what I'd want to cut to fit in Boars. I think if you play Boars, you have to play 19 lands. Maybe I could cut 2 Apes and 1 Mutagenic for 2 Boars and 1 land. It makes Herbalists more relevant. I've sometimes felt like sequencing in order to maximize power on board has been slightly awkward for me, and maybe that's due to too much red.
I agree on Summons. You're either way ahead such that it doesn't matter or it's not enough to matter and you've sacrificed lands and you're still behind. I much prefer Mutagenic Growth, if only because it saves a creature from a Lightning Bolt in addition to being a blowout.
It's playing 14 fetches, I believe. I think you wouldn't want to cut the mountain unless you were very heavy on green with the Boars. I assume the Mires were a concession because they don't have green fetches. I might give 2 Apes 2 Boars 1 Mutagenic and 19 lands a shot, though I'd play 13 fetches and 2 Stomping Grounds.
The "lol... Remand" means that Devastating Summons is really bad.
I've played with the card for aboud ~2 months and it felt win more to me.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins