The "low to the ground" Bushwhacker Zoo list try to be as close to R/G in the mainboard as possible. This reduces issues with mana and most importantly gives you the greatest chance to play cards off of the additional mana Burning-Tree Emissary gives. You'll often see this being apparent by there (in some lists) not even being any Path to Exile in the main deck.
While Loam Lion is a more "durable" creature compared to Goblin Guide(due to it having one more toughness) the trade-off of not having Haste is too great. This deck aims to be as explosive an fast as possible and having 4 more "off color Kird Apes" doesn't help that game plan as much. The need for having haste is echoed by the fact that this style of deck often plays Flinthoof Boar,which is pretty terrible when compared to something like Tarmogoyf, until you factor in Haste.
The "low to the ground" Bushwhacker Zoo list try to be as close to R/G in the mainboard as possible. This reduces issues with mana and most importantly gives you the greatest chance to play cards off of the additional mana Burning-Tree Emissary gives. You'll often see this being apparent by there (in some lists) not even being any Path to Exile in the main deck.
While Loam Lion is a more "durable" creature compared to Goblin Guide(due to it having one more toughness) the trade-off of not having Haste is too great. This deck aims to be as explosive an fast as possible and having 4 more "off color Kird Apes" doesn't help that game plan as much. The need for having haste is echoed by the fact that this style of deck often plays Flinthoof Boar,which is pretty terrible when compared to something like Tarmogoyf, until you factor in Haste.
The rest of the list seems standard enough for that archetype, other than the hotly debated Tarmogoyf or Flinthoof Boar slot.
I generally agree. If you're playing BTE, white one drops are a no-go. However, I prefer the Naya versions without BTE or Bushwhacker. Then you can load up on Loam Lions and even a couple Kytheon. And you end up with a more consistent version of the deck.
Theres always been a weird bit of tention with burning-tree, shes high tempo but warps your deck to be built around her. It isn't bad, because the higher reward for it (E1 is consistent, she adds 2 power aside from the body, and she plays nice with reckless for 2 reasons) then the punishment (Bad top deck, unable to play white 1 and 2 drops.)
At some point, the card pool will get to the point shes either gotten better or gotten way worse. If wizards prints amazing 1 and 2 drop white creatures, like they already have mind you with kytheon, then the smaller zoo deck will have out grown her and will play those cards. Seriously, watch how quickly everyone will drop her if a 1 mana 3/3 white dude gets printed. On the other hand, if they print more really good GR/R1/G1 then she'll have grown with the deck.
But for now, living in this current card pool, the gruul decks and the company lists are the only way to go. Small zoo thats naya colored will still work sometimes, but they will be worse than the gruul zoos, plain and simple. Kytheon is a great card, and loam lion is alright, but being able to attack for 8-9 damage on turn 2 with the gruul is flat out better then maybe getting a planeswalker on turn 3. The white weenie cards just aren't there. And the only reason kird ape is even remotely playable is because if rounds out the gruul deck for E1. The only time Loam Lion is better than Kytheon is when delver is one of the best decks and you want to dodge electrolize and forked bolt.
Theres always been a weird bit of tention with burning-tree, shes high tempo but warps your deck to be built around her. It isn't bad, because the higher reward for it (E1 is consistent, she adds 2 power aside from the body, and she plays nice with reckless for 2 reasons) then the punishment (Bad top deck, unable to play white 1 and 2 drops.)
At some point, the card pool will get to the point shes either gotten better or gotten way worse. If wizards prints amazing 1 and 2 drop white creatures, like they already have mind you with kytheon, then the smaller zoo deck will have out grown her and will play those cards. Seriously, watch how quickly everyone will drop her if a 1 mana 3/3 white dude gets printed. On the other hand, if they print more really good GR/R1/G1 then she'll have grown with the deck.
But for now, living in this current card pool, the gruul decks and the company lists are the only way to go. Small zoo thats naya colored will still work sometimes, but they will be worse than the gruul zoos, plain and simple. Kytheon is a great card, and loam lion is alright, but being able to attack for 8-9 damage on turn 2 with the gruul is flat out better then maybe getting a planeswalker on turn 3. The white weenie cards just aren't there. And the only reason kird ape is even remotely playable is because if rounds out the gruul deck for E1. The only time Loam Lion is better than Kytheon is when delver is one of the best decks and you want to dodge electrolize and forked bolt.
Maybe for the maindeck, but you're not mentioning the powerful sideboard cards in white. Additionally, the lists I am seeing place high at large tournaments are the ones that have MD path, as opposed to the rancor/mutagenic/ghorclan
I feel it is hilarious everyone is back on coco and I am over here killing it with naya zookeepers as it has been dubbed by our judge. Tonight I minused Sarkhan and domri and took his monster and let them fight, killing both, then swung a 5/5 knight for game. Coco is good but in a world or at least my meta of blue, walkers and big things is good
For getting reach i added 4 Knight of the Reliquary, 1 Dryad Arbor and 2 Elspeth, Knight Errant.
It curves out really good with 21 Lands and has multiple Turn 4 kills, it runs 4 Loam Lion + 4 Wild Nacatl thogh staying GW in Turn 1 with all creatures. The rest is basically Burn, Elspeth for added reach and buff and some giant knights.
It shares some weaknesses with 1-Drop Zoo lists, but the added reach is something most opponents aren't prepared to handle smoothly. Even a T4 Lion is no dead weight with Elspeth together
Theres always been a weird bit of tention with burning-tree, shes high tempo but warps your deck to be built around her. It isn't bad, because the higher reward for it (E1 is consistent, she adds 2 power aside from the body, and she plays nice with reckless for 2 reasons) then the punishment (Bad top deck, unable to play white 1 and 2 drops.)
At some point, the card pool will get to the point shes either gotten better or gotten way worse. If wizards prints amazing 1 and 2 drop white creatures, like they already have mind you with kytheon, then the smaller zoo deck will have out grown her and will play those cards. Seriously, watch how quickly everyone will drop her if a 1 mana 3/3 white dude gets printed. On the other hand, if they print more really good GR/R1/G1 then she'll have grown with the deck.
But for now, living in this current card pool, the gruul decks and the company lists are the only way to go. Small zoo thats naya colored will still work sometimes, but they will be worse than the gruul zoos, plain and simple. Kytheon is a great card, and loam lion is alright, but being able to attack for 8-9 damage on turn 2 with the gruul is flat out better then maybe getting a planeswalker on turn 3. The white weenie cards just aren't there. And the only reason kird ape is even remotely playable is because if rounds out the gruul deck for E1. The only time Loam Lion is better than Kytheon is when delver is one of the best decks and you want to dodge electrolize and forked bolt.
I disagree, but I understand I'm in the minority here. I've played both builds and here's my thinking. BTE has three main upsides over just playing more one drops: 1) BTE into Reckless Bushwhacker, which is super high power level, and 2) BTE into two creatures / a creature + a spell / a two drop creature, 3) mutltiple BTEs into anything. The power level of 1) when it happens is through the roof, I admit, but Bushwhacker adds another level of inconsistency to the deck. If you don't draw BTE, you need to hit a 3rd land or a free spell (Mutagenic Growth) to cast Bushwhacker, so often Bushwhacker is awkward even in your opening hand. You can add land to make this less of an issue - and I think going up to 20 is probably correct in many Bushwhacker builds - but then you get inconsistency along another dimension due to an increased likelihood of flooding. 3) is also very strong during the early turns of the game. 2) is less powerful but still pretty strong, though often one of the BTE's mana is wasted - e.g. if you don't have another one drop of the right color or you don't want to cast a bolt right now. In that case, what have you done? You've put 3 2-3 power creatures into play by turn 2. And you've acknowledged the downside - BTE is a pretty poor topdeck. The difference between topdecking a BTE and a Loam Lion is admittedly small, but in Loam Lion builds you ultimately have a higher chance of hitting 3 2-3 power creatures in play by turn 2 because you construct your deck differently.
This argument in itself isn't enough to prefer one build over the other - little Naya zoo is more consistent, Bushwhacker zoo has a higher peak power level. So what? Sometimes the less consistent deck is better. But I think the Naya builds are already powerful enough that I'd prefer to have the consistency. At least in most metagames. In most matchups when you put 3 creatures into play by turn 2 you're a favorite to win.
That said, as I explain my reasoning I'm a little less certain in it. So I may test some more with the Bushwhacker build and see if I change my mind.
Consistency is all well and good (in fact, it's the calling card of other aggro decks, like Burn and Merfolk), but you have to make sure you're hitting a base power level with it - otherwise, all your consistency will bring about is an exacerbation of the deck's weaknesses. I'm not saying necessarily Naya Small Zoo is weak, but given Kird Ape's status on the bottom rung of the Gruul Zoo creature totem pole (you'd rather open with an Experiment One, Goblin Guide, or Wild Nacatl), I can't say that doubling up on it by playing Loam Lion seems all that good on paper. Granted, it does provide an even greater density of 1-drops to open a game with and the manabase it requires paves the way for Path to Exile in the main, but the counterpoints to that is that Gruul Zoo already has a plethora of good 1-drops (the hypergeometric calculator says a deck with the lineup I just mentioned has a 90% chance of seeing at least one in its opening 7, so not finding one early is more bad variance than anything else), and that Lightning Bolt is the preferred piece of one-drop removal right now (Exhibit A: Jund is the deck with the largest meta share in the format, and Abzan is lagging behind in the back half of Tier 2, and that argument doesn't even consider that reach is relevant for Zoo). I can understand the decision making process that leads to Naya Small Zoo, but I disagree with it. In this case, give me more power and "less consistency" (though I find that arguable).
Consistency is all well and good (in fact, it's the calling card of other aggro decks, like Burn and Merfolk), but you have to make sure you're hitting a base power level with it - otherwise, all your consistency will bring about is an exacerbation of the deck's weaknesses. I'm not saying necessarily Naya Small Zoo is weak, but given Kird Ape's status on the bottom rung of the Gruul Zoo creature totem pole (you'd rather open with an Experiment One, Goblin Guide, or Wild Nacatl), I can't say that doubling up on it by playing Loam Lion seems all that good on paper. Granted, it does provide an even greater density of 1-drops to open a game with and the manabase it requires paves the way for Path to Exile in the main, but the counterpoints to that is that Gruul Zoo already has a plethora of good 1-drops (the hypergeometric calculator says a deck with the lineup I just mentioned has a 90% chance of seeing at least one in its opening 7, so not finding one early is more bad variance than anything else), and that Lightning Bolt is the preferred piece of one-drop removal right now (Exhibit A: Jund is the deck with the largest meta share in the format, and Abzan is lagging behind in the back half of Tier 2, and that argument doesn't even consider that reach is relevant for Zoo). I can understand the decision making process that leads to Naya Small Zoo, but I disagree with it. In this case, give me more power and "less consistency" (though I find that arguable).
You're absolutely right that my argument relies on a judgment Naya is consistent enough on its own. It's close and metagame dependent, but I have a ton of games with it under my belt and pretty certain of it at this point, but I don't pretend that this is something I can easily convince others of. I have much less experience with Bushwhacker zoo though, so what I'm really uncertain of is how inconsistent I think that deck is. Right now on MTGO I don't like how Naya is positioned, so I switched to burn. But the next couple of leagues I play I'll probably run Bushwhacker zoo instead just for the info gathering.
Nitpick: I'm not worried about having a single one drop in the opener. Any of these little zoo builds will do that >90% of the time. What I want is 3 creatures in play by turn 2.
I guess I'm out of loop. I took ex. 1 out my bushwacker for kird ape. I like it better. I a, still on fence with dryad arbor. Seems even at a 1 of I am always drawing into it when I'd love a pump or bolt
I really dislike dryad arbor, it's been borderline game altering if it's in opening hand or you draw it. I would never consider playing loam lion or steppe lynx, for that matter, if I was playing burning tree.
I'm not a fan of the Dryad Arbor, to be honest. With regards to the Experiment One vs. Kird Ape debate... the correct answer is both, as the Ape's presence makes E1 better (since it can be Evolved to a 3/3 more often). I think Gruul Zoo is at its best with 16 1-drop creatures, as it achieves what Spooly says he's after with his Naya Small Zoo list, and that's 3+ creatures by T2.
I'm not a fan of the Dryad Arbor, to be honest. With regards to the Experiment One vs. Kird Ape debate... the correct answer is both, as the Ape's presence makes E1 better (since it can be Evolved to a 3/3 more often). I think Gruul Zoo is at its best with 16 1-drop creatures, as it achieves what Spooly says he's after with his Naya Small Zoo list, and that's 3+ creatures by T2.
Well, in the case of Gruul Zoo it's essentially 20, as Burning-Tree Emissary does not preclude you from adding a 3rd creature to the battlefield (and can sometimes enable you to put down 4). You could even use your flex spots on something like a Vexing Devil and get to that 22 threshold if you really wanted to.
Well, in the case of Gruul Zoo it's essentially 20, as Burning-Tree Emissary does not preclude you from adding a 3rd creature to the battlefield (and can sometimes enable you to put down 4). You could even use your flex spots on something like a Vexing Devil and get to that 22 threshold if you really wanted to.
This is 100% right, though Vexing Devil is bad. Zurgo Bellstriker is the next best R or G one drop that Gruul Zoo isn't playing.
Edit: I do see the appeal when you have 4 X1s though. Still not worth it IMO.
I really dislike dryad arbor, it's been borderline game altering if it's in opening hand or you draw it. I would never consider playing loam lion or steppe lynx, for that matter, if I was playing burning tree.
I actually liked it the last time I played (grant its been a while... I've been playing more Zoo hearthstone than anything else.) I'm pretty sure its a good call if you are facing mostly removal with jund and the like. If the meta is currently like that. But overall its pretty hit or miss. When it hits it hits hard, when its in an opener it totally blows. I've seen some people run as many as 3... I wouldnt risk it, and just run 1.
Overall what is the general consensus for the Zoo to play? Right now on MTGO Bushwhacker Zoo and Suicide Zoo seem to be the most popular, which makes it look like fast is the way to go.
It seems like it will be mostly meta dependent but with meta games which feature things like:
UWR Nahiri
Tron
Melira Company
Burn
Jund
It doesn't seem like one speed works the best. Playing the larger Planeswalker Zoo leaves you dead to the faster lists (Burn) and dead to the "end game" lists like Tron. Playing Bushwhacker helps you against the previously mentioned decks but leaves you dead in the water against Melira Company and Jund.
Is it time to move back to Collected Company Zoo (as it's in between both speeds) in order to survive?
I need to test more. If I drop the walking tree I will add my 4th Atarkas command. Atm I am also playing 4 Ghor clan and it is great, if control can't deal with a turn 1 guide and I open with 2-3 Ghor clans and 2 land with a GG or Wild nacatl, it is lights out till they bump a bolt or path. That is main reason Jeskai is a wank to play against. Always get them 5 and below, then come snap helix
I have lots of blue in my meta so I feel my walker zoo is killer. Every body and their brother is on Jeskai or grixis with either. Thing, kalitias, GDD or A vision. Big zoo shines. If I wax to go back to coco. Id still run domri, arlin and elspeth. Or nock domri and run 2x Arlin
I would play Thrun, but 4 mana is just too much for Gruul.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
The "low to the ground" Bushwhacker Zoo list try to be as close to R/G in the mainboard as possible. This reduces issues with mana and most importantly gives you the greatest chance to play cards off of the additional mana Burning-Tree Emissary gives. You'll often see this being apparent by there (in some lists) not even being any Path to Exile in the main deck.
While Loam Lion is a more "durable" creature compared to Goblin Guide (due to it having one more toughness) the trade-off of not having Haste is too great. This deck aims to be as explosive an fast as possible and having 4 more "off color Kird Apes" doesn't help that game plan as much. The need for having haste is echoed by the fact that this style of deck often plays Flinthoof Boar,which is pretty terrible when compared to something like Tarmogoyf, until you factor in Haste.
A possible upside would be that Loam Lion grants you another creature who doesn't die from opposing Lightning Bolts if you have Atarka's Command.
The rest of the list seems standard enough for that archetype, other than the hotly debated Tarmogoyf or Flinthoof Boar slot.
I generally agree. If you're playing BTE, white one drops are a no-go. However, I prefer the Naya versions without BTE or Bushwhacker. Then you can load up on Loam Lions and even a couple Kytheon. And you end up with a more consistent version of the deck.
At some point, the card pool will get to the point shes either gotten better or gotten way worse. If wizards prints amazing 1 and 2 drop white creatures, like they already have mind you with kytheon, then the smaller zoo deck will have out grown her and will play those cards. Seriously, watch how quickly everyone will drop her if a 1 mana 3/3 white dude gets printed. On the other hand, if they print more really good GR/R1/G1 then she'll have grown with the deck.
But for now, living in this current card pool, the gruul decks and the company lists are the only way to go. Small zoo thats naya colored will still work sometimes, but they will be worse than the gruul zoos, plain and simple. Kytheon is a great card, and loam lion is alright, but being able to attack for 8-9 damage on turn 2 with the gruul is flat out better then maybe getting a planeswalker on turn 3. The white weenie cards just aren't there. And the only reason kird ape is even remotely playable is because if rounds out the gruul deck for E1. The only time Loam Lion is better than Kytheon is when delver is one of the best decks and you want to dodge electrolize and forked bolt.
Maybe for the maindeck, but you're not mentioning the powerful sideboard cards in white. Additionally, the lists I am seeing place high at large tournaments are the ones that have MD path, as opposed to the rancor/mutagenic/ghorclan
My H/W list
For getting reach i added 4 Knight of the Reliquary, 1 Dryad Arbor and 2 Elspeth, Knight Errant.
It curves out really good with 21 Lands and has multiple Turn 4 kills, it runs 4 Loam Lion + 4 Wild Nacatl thogh staying GW in Turn 1 with all creatures. The rest is basically Burn, Elspeth for added reach and buff and some giant knights.
It shares some weaknesses with 1-Drop Zoo lists, but the added reach is something most opponents aren't prepared to handle smoothly. Even a T4 Lion is no dead weight with Elspeth together
Green @ it's best
I disagree, but I understand I'm in the minority here. I've played both builds and here's my thinking. BTE has three main upsides over just playing more one drops: 1) BTE into Reckless Bushwhacker, which is super high power level, and 2) BTE into two creatures / a creature + a spell / a two drop creature, 3) mutltiple BTEs into anything. The power level of 1) when it happens is through the roof, I admit, but Bushwhacker adds another level of inconsistency to the deck. If you don't draw BTE, you need to hit a 3rd land or a free spell (Mutagenic Growth) to cast Bushwhacker, so often Bushwhacker is awkward even in your opening hand. You can add land to make this less of an issue - and I think going up to 20 is probably correct in many Bushwhacker builds - but then you get inconsistency along another dimension due to an increased likelihood of flooding. 3) is also very strong during the early turns of the game. 2) is less powerful but still pretty strong, though often one of the BTE's mana is wasted - e.g. if you don't have another one drop of the right color or you don't want to cast a bolt right now. In that case, what have you done? You've put 3 2-3 power creatures into play by turn 2. And you've acknowledged the downside - BTE is a pretty poor topdeck. The difference between topdecking a BTE and a Loam Lion is admittedly small, but in Loam Lion builds you ultimately have a higher chance of hitting 3 2-3 power creatures in play by turn 2 because you construct your deck differently.
This argument in itself isn't enough to prefer one build over the other - little Naya zoo is more consistent, Bushwhacker zoo has a higher peak power level. So what? Sometimes the less consistent deck is better. But I think the Naya builds are already powerful enough that I'd prefer to have the consistency. At least in most metagames. In most matchups when you put 3 creatures into play by turn 2 you're a favorite to win.
That said, as I explain my reasoning I'm a little less certain in it. So I may test some more with the Bushwhacker build and see if I change my mind.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
You're absolutely right that my argument relies on a judgment Naya is consistent enough on its own. It's close and metagame dependent, but I have a ton of games with it under my belt and pretty certain of it at this point, but I don't pretend that this is something I can easily convince others of. I have much less experience with Bushwhacker zoo though, so what I'm really uncertain of is how inconsistent I think that deck is. Right now on MTGO I don't like how Naya is positioned, so I switched to burn. But the next couple of leagues I play I'll probably run Bushwhacker zoo instead just for the info gathering.
Nitpick: I'm not worried about having a single one drop in the opener. Any of these little zoo builds will do that >90% of the time. What I want is 3 creatures in play by turn 2.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
That 16 could be 22 but you playin'
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
This is 100% right, though Vexing Devil is bad. Zurgo Bellstriker is the next best R or G one drop that Gruul Zoo isn't playing.
Edit: I do see the appeal when you have 4 X1s though. Still not worth it IMO.
I actually liked it the last time I played (grant its been a while... I've been playing more Zoo hearthstone than anything else.) I'm pretty sure its a good call if you are facing mostly removal with jund and the like. If the meta is currently like that. But overall its pretty hit or miss. When it hits it hits hard, when its in an opener it totally blows. I've seen some people run as many as 3... I wouldnt risk it, and just run 1.
It seems like it will be mostly meta dependent but with meta games which feature things like:
It doesn't seem like one speed works the best. Playing the larger Planeswalker Zoo leaves you dead to the faster lists (Burn) and dead to the "end game" lists like Tron. Playing Bushwhacker helps you against the previously mentioned decks but leaves you dead in the water against Melira Company and Jund.
Is it time to move back to Collected Company Zoo (as it's in between both speeds) in order to survive?
I have lots of blue in my meta so I feel my walker zoo is killer. Every body and their brother is on Jeskai or grixis with either. Thing, kalitias, GDD or A vision. Big zoo shines. If I wax to go back to coco. Id still run domri, arlin and elspeth. Or nock domri and run 2x Arlin