I've mentioned before that I'm just starting to get into modern. The problem is that I usually jump around between 3 different game stores, all of which have different playerbases (i.e. one is hyper competitive, one is more casual) and are likely to have very different metas. Would it be wise to just invest in a well-rounded sideboard (traditional stuff like Blood Moon, Batterskull, Spellskite) and then tweak it from there?
Also, I don't know if it's already been discussed, but what about Keranos in the SB? The only reason I ask is because I see some lists side-in Batterskull for grindier matchups. The mana cost is the same, and I'd imagine that Keranos is a lot harder to deal with.
For an unknown meta you just try to sideboard for your worst matchup.
Regarding Keranos, I think it's a nice play, but tailored more for the tempo deck that moves to the control role, not the aggro build.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I know affinity can be rough. How about pod/burn? To be honest, from all the delver videos I've watched it seems like the deck is versatile and aggressive enough that even the bad matchups aren't that bad. Maybe this is just due to the skill of the players, or maybe I'm attributing this to the fact that the deck seems pretty modular, with plenty of room for random 1-ofs and small tweaks.
And yeah, I agree about Keranos. I think I'm going with LSV's list for now, with a few changes here and there based off of Gerry's list (adding Gutshot and Dismember to the 75) so I think Keranos might fit.
Care to explain? I know the sideboard looked pretty sketch (Eidolon in particular seemed awful), but the MB didn't look too bad (or all too different from other delver lists).
I am not a fan of dragons claw at all. I also dislike your shackles and counter flux in the side.
Also some of your side boarding seems off. I think vapor snag is really good in the mirror (It un-flips their delver which in many cases is almost a two for one with how often we serum visions to setup the flip.) also it's good against affinity and Splinter twin (if they go off without counter backup you just ruin twins day) and against affinity you can use your burn to force certain sacs to their ravager and just blow them out by sending ravager back to hand.
I recently added smash to smithereens to my SB and I really like the card for artifact hate. I have also really like 2 Spellskite in the sideboard as it helps with lots of problematic matches (infect, boggles, twin, burn, America control)
I also really like counters in the pod matchup. If you can burn out their early dorks with remand backup for when they finally cast a threat it puts you in a really good position. You really can't let them resolve a birthing pod. I also don't mind spell pierce in the matchup as they usually tap out for both pod and cord (usually leave 1 mana for pod up) either way it usually ends up being a hard counter for 1.
Care to explain? I know the sideboard looked pretty sketch (Eidolon in particular seemed awful), but the MB didn't look too bad (or all too different from other delver lists).
I feel electrolyze, sleight of hand. And to some degree mana leak have no business in this deck.
Also monastery Swiftspear (for me) has proven time and time again to be amazing and will remain a 4 of.
1 also feel that spell snare is one of the best cards in the current meta (I run 2MB 1 SB)
Lastly as you also said eidolon is just really bad.
Dig Through Time might be better than Treasure Cruise afterall; Snapcaster versions are just better than Swiftspear versions in Modern; you can't reliably kill fast enough and you give up too much card quality.
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I play tested both Snapcaster and Swiftspear and i would say both have nearly the same power level in this Deck. sometimes Snappy is the way to go and sometimes it is the swiftspear who is a very fast clock or your last line off defense backed up with 1-2 Spells to power him up.
The thing about Snapcaster is that he is sometimes problematic to play with DTT and TC, Swiftspear is just often a decent clock. on Paper the Swiftspear really looks weak but on the table he is just nuts, sure he is even more powerful in Legacy no question but that does not make him "much" weaker for the modern format.
I Ended up playing 4 Swiftspear and 2 Snappy, maybe 3 someday. I Feel like often TC and DTT want my whole GY to get the full power and be able to cast spells after i resolved TC or DTT.
I agree with Apex_Preadtor, LSV is an experienced UR player and a magic brainer but Slight of Hand has nothing to do in any of this Decks and after setting the core cards you are like ok i have around 10 flex slots and he really chooses the wrong cards in my eyes too. That does not mean that the Deck he is playing is bad. TC makes UR extreme strong so that you maybe does not even feel when you play 3-5 cards that does not match to another to 100%.
Time will show if we can keep TC or DTT... i can not imagine that Wizards will ban both of those cards so Delver is back in the game and i'm very happy about it because i really like UR Tempo!
Explanation to some Cards:
Forked Bolt: Forked Bolt is a card that i wanted to play because of the 4 Swiftspear's, Forked Bolt clears little creatures on the Board and makes room for the Swiftspear to go for lethal DMG.
Pillar of Flame: Another sorcery :/ Was what i thought first but as mentioned when you play with Swiftspear it is not as bad as it looks first.
A Playset of Remand is Something i would nearly consider to become a core in this Deck, Flip Delver T1 And get 2 Remands on his Threads is often Game and this Cards shines in so many Situation. Rescue Bolt from a Cryptic Command or Just Timewalk when he casts wurmcoil or Primeval Titan WTF it is one of the cards that i really love to see. And Think about how strong Remand just become with this new Delve Spells Remanding a spell for that he removed his whole GY is often very Strong because he will need to wait 2-4 Turns to try it again.
The fact that i play TC over DTT is that i think all of my Cards are like yeah give it to me. I prefer two draw any three cards with this Deck than tapping out two blue. Maybee i will change my mind on this after some more palytesting
I play 3 Vapor snags because this card is nuts when you have the ability to grow such card advantage with TC that is is with playing 3 in my eyes.
Snapcaster versions are just better than Swiftspear versions in Modern; you can't reliably kill fast enough and you give up too much card quality.
Snapcaster versions were Tier 2.
Swiftspear plus Cruise has put this deck into Tier 1.
I don't see any versions not running 4 Swiftspear, but I do see them dropping Snapcaster. So either everyone has it wrong and could be doing better but swapping out Swiftspear for Snapcaster - or you're making a statement void of fact (which is a shame because I actually think you know what you're saying 90% of the time...).
In a vacumn, Snapcaster is a better card than Swiftspear, but in the Aggro shell - it seems better to have the aggro creature.
(by the way the only time I ever want Snapcaster in this deck is to go Snap-Bolt. In that case I'd rather play Lava Spike or even Incinerate - ok not really, but you get the point)
This will end up being like when everyone told me I was wrong about Young Pyromancer in standard and that Eidolon of Great Revels was the great savior for Boros Burn.
Snapcaster versions were Tier 2. They ALSO got the new delve spells and need to be evaluated in that context. You can rest assured that whichever version puts up the first relevant results will become the norm, but until then it is simply speculation.
I have tested both
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This will end up being like when everyone told me I was wrong about Young Pyromancer in standard and that Eidolon of Great Revels was the great savior for Boros Burn.
I'm happy to accept this as one of those players that played PyroRed back when I last cared about Standard.
Snapcaster versions were Tier 2. They ALSO got the new delve spells and need to be evaluated in that context. You can rest assured that whichever version puts up the first relevant results will become the norm, but until then it is simply speculation.
Fair enough, but then your argument is that the addition of Treasure Cruise pushes UR Delver to Tier 1, in spite of people playing the deck sub-optimally by replacing Snapcaster Mage with Monastery Swiftspear.
Snapcaster versions were Tier 2. They ALSO got the new delve spells and need to be evaluated in that context. You can rest assured that whichever version puts up the first relevant results will become the norm, but until then it is simply speculation.
Fair enough, but then your argument is that the addition of Treasure Cruise pushes UR Delver to Tier 1, in spite of people playing the deck sub-optimally by replacing Snapcaster Mage with Monastery Swiftspear.
ABSOLUTELY. Ancestral Recall is a mighty powerful card, much more powerful than anything else going on in the format. I even wrote an article about it! I think a lot of these new pilots have no idea the difference that U: draw 3 made to an already fringe tier 1 deck (see above)
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How can anyone at this point not be playing Swiftspear. It's not just Treasure Cruise that has put this deck into tier 1, Swiftspear is a big part of that too and even when TC and DTT get banned Swiftspear might enough by herself to keep this deck competitive. The two problems Delver had before was not having a good threat on turn 1 aside from Delver, and not being able to come back from running out of gas. Swiftspear and TC are the double whammy solution to this problem that has catapulted Delver into being the best deck in the format. Swiftspear is better than Goblin Guide and when draw in multiples can kill insanely fast.
Turn 1: Mountain, Swiftspear, attack for 1.
Turn 2: Steam Vents, Swiftspear, Serum Visions, Gitaxian Probe, attack for 6.
That's not even that uncommon for this deck to do. Attacking with two 3/4s on turn 2 is INSANE.
Make no mistake, Swiftspear is a creature that is comparable to Wild Nacatl in power level, I can't believe someone in this thread said Snapcaster was better in this deck. The great thing about this deck right now is even if they kill your Delvers and Swiftspears you can just Cruise, draw another one, and get right back to killing them. You don't need to hold up counter magic to protect your threats a lot of the time because you can now just keep drawing more of them and out tempoing your opponent.
Because its power ceiling is lower than Snapcaster Mage. Its amusing that you think I am "just someone" then try to lecture me with the text of the cards:P Talk about condescending and pointless.
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Dig Through Time might be better than Treasure Cruise afterall; Snapcaster versions are just better than Swiftspear versions in Modern; you can't reliably kill fast enough and you give up too much card quality.
So in this Modern meta, i'm speaking of MODO, you would advice a snap/monastery ratio of 3-4/0?
To me the place for 4 snapcaster is no more. A 2/1 is irrelevant value and play 2 more mana your spell is a huge tempo loss.
Apply pressure early in the game, eat removals or sometimes dodge them and putting up a clock is far more important in a lighting fast format.
Obviously thiago remains a great card and in the mid game can be backbreaking, but not so crucial like it was before TC.
My snap/monastery ratio right now is 2/4 and i'm fairly happy right now, after testing 3-4/0 and 3/2 ratios...
- L
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I've mentioned before that I'm just starting to get into modern. The problem is that I usually jump around between 3 different game stores, all of which have different playerbases (i.e. one is hyper competitive, one is more casual) and are likely to have very different metas. Would it be wise to just invest in a well-rounded sideboard (traditional stuff like Blood Moon, Batterskull, Spellskite) and then tweak it from there?
Also, I don't know if it's already been discussed, but what about Keranos in the SB? The only reason I ask is because I see some lists side-in Batterskull for grindier matchups. The mana cost is the same, and I'd imagine that Keranos is a lot harder to deal with.
U/R Delver
Regarding Keranos, I think it's a nice play, but tailored more for the tempo deck that moves to the control role, not the aggro build.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I know affinity can be rough. How about pod/burn? To be honest, from all the delver videos I've watched it seems like the deck is versatile and aggressive enough that even the bad matchups aren't that bad. Maybe this is just due to the skill of the players, or maybe I'm attributing this to the fact that the deck seems pretty modular, with plenty of room for random 1-ofs and small tweaks.
And yeah, I agree about Keranos. I think I'm going with LSV's list for now, with a few changes here and there based off of Gerry's list (adding Gutshot and Dismember to the 75) so I think Keranos might fit.
U/R Delver
Care to explain? I know the sideboard looked pretty sketch (Eidolon in particular seemed awful), but the MB didn't look too bad (or all too different from other delver lists).
U/R Delver
Naw. I've been trying Dig Through Time over cruise and DTT is just as good, if not better. If they banned Cruise this would still be a tier 1 deck.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Burst Lightning
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Electrolyze
2 Vapor Snag
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dig Through Time
1 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Electrickery
3 Magma Spray
2 Dispel
2 Blood Moon
1 Negate
1 Counterflux (may cut this for a vandal blast)
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Vandal Blast
1 Combust
1 Vedalken Shackels
Any other changes?
I am listening. I need to win this tourney tomorrow, I wanna prove my worth here!
Sideboard plans (not set in stone obviously)
vs. Mirror
-2 Mana Leak
-2 Vapor Snag
1 Electrickery
2 Dispel
1 Vedalken Shackels
vs. Affinity
-4 Remand
-2 Vapor Snag
1 Vandalblast
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Electrickery
3 Magma Spray
vs. Burn
-2 Vapor Snag
-4 Remand
1 Counterflux
2 Dispel
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Negate
vs. Pod
-4 Remand
-2 Vapor Snag
-1 Spell Pierce
3 Magma Spray
2 Blood Moon
1 Vedalken Shackels
1 Electrickery
vs. Jund
-1 Forked Bolt
-2 Vapor Snag
2 Blood Moon
1 Vedalken Shackels
vs. Splinter Twin
-1 Electrolyze
-1 Pillar of Flame
-2 Vapor Snag
-1 Burst Lightning
2 Dispel
1 Counterflux (if i cut for vandal blast, keep in the electrolyze)
1 Combust
1 Negate
vs. UWR Control
-1 Pillar
-1 Electrolyze
-2 Vapor Snag
-1 Burst Lightning
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Combust
1 Vedalken Shackles
vs. Jeskai Ascendancy
-1 Pillar of Flame
-1 Electrolyze
-2 Vapor Snag
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Electrickery
vs. Scapeshift
-1 Electrolyze
-2 Mana Leak
-1 Pillar of Flame
-2 Vapor Snag
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Counterflux
2 Blood Moon
vs. RG Tron
-2 Mana Leak
-1 Pillar of Flame
2 Blood Moon
1 Negate
vs Mono Blue Tron
-2 Vapor Snag
-2 Mana Leak
-1 Pillar of Flame
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Negate
thoughts?
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
-------------
xRxAffinityxRx
Also some of your side boarding seems off. I think vapor snag is really good in the mirror (It un-flips their delver which in many cases is almost a two for one with how often we serum visions to setup the flip.) also it's good against affinity and Splinter twin (if they go off without counter backup you just ruin twins day) and against affinity you can use your burn to force certain sacs to their ravager and just blow them out by sending ravager back to hand.
I recently added smash to smithereens to my SB and I really like the card for artifact hate. I have also really like 2 Spellskite in the sideboard as it helps with lots of problematic matches (infect, boggles, twin, burn, America control)
I also really like counters in the pod matchup. If you can burn out their early dorks with remand backup for when they finally cast a threat it puts you in a really good position. You really can't let them resolve a birthing pod. I also don't mind spell pierce in the matchup as they usually tap out for both pod and cord (usually leave 1 mana for pod up) either way it usually ends up being a hard counter for 1.
I feel electrolyze, sleight of hand. And to some degree mana leak have no business in this deck.
Also monastery Swiftspear (for me) has proven time and time again to be amazing and will remain a 4 of.
1 also feel that spell snare is one of the best cards in the current meta (I run 2MB 1 SB)
Lastly as you also said eidolon is just really bad.
Dig Through Time might be better than Treasure Cruise afterall; Snapcaster versions are just better than Swiftspear versions in Modern; you can't reliably kill fast enough and you give up too much card quality.
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The thing about Snapcaster is that he is sometimes problematic to play with DTT and TC, Swiftspear is just often a decent clock. on Paper the Swiftspear really looks weak but on the table he is just nuts, sure he is even more powerful in Legacy no question but that does not make him "much" weaker for the modern format.
I Ended up playing 4 Swiftspear and 2 Snappy, maybe 3 someday. I Feel like often TC and DTT want my whole GY to get the full power and be able to cast spells after i resolved TC or DTT.
I agree with Apex_Preadtor, LSV is an experienced UR player and a magic brainer but Slight of Hand has nothing to do in any of this Decks and after setting the core cards you are like ok i have around 10 flex slots and he really chooses the wrong cards in my eyes too. That does not mean that the Deck he is playing is bad. TC makes UR extreme strong so that you maybe does not even feel when you play 3-5 cards that does not match to another to 100%.
Time will show if we can keep TC or DTT... i can not imagine that Wizards will ban both of those cards so Delver is back in the game and i'm very happy about it because i really like UR Tempo!
By the way here is my list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
Spells
2 Spell Pierce
4 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
3 Vapor Snag
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
3 Steam Vents
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterflux
1 Electrickery
1 Flashfreeze
1 Arc Trail
2 Dispel
2 Dismember
3 Molten Rain
1 Electrolyze
Explanation to some Cards:
Forked Bolt: Forked Bolt is a card that i wanted to play because of the 4 Swiftspear's, Forked Bolt clears little creatures on the Board and makes room for the Swiftspear to go for lethal DMG.
Pillar of Flame: Another sorcery :/ Was what i thought first but as mentioned when you play with Swiftspear it is not as bad as it looks first.
A Playset of Remand is Something i would nearly consider to become a core in this Deck, Flip Delver T1 And get 2 Remands on his Threads is often Game and this Cards shines in so many Situation. Rescue Bolt from a Cryptic Command or Just Timewalk when he casts wurmcoil or Primeval Titan WTF it is one of the cards that i really love to see. And Think about how strong Remand just become with this new Delve Spells Remanding a spell for that he removed his whole GY is often very Strong because he will need to wait 2-4 Turns to try it again.
The fact that i play TC over DTT is that i think all of my Cards are like yeah give it to me. I prefer two draw any three cards with this Deck than tapping out two blue. Maybee i will change my mind on this after some more palytesting
I play 3 Vapor snags because this card is nuts when you have the ability to grow such card advantage with TC that is is with playing 3 in my eyes.
Snapcaster versions were Tier 2.
Swiftspear plus Cruise has put this deck into Tier 1.
I don't see any versions not running 4 Swiftspear, but I do see them dropping Snapcaster. So either everyone has it wrong and could be doing better but swapping out Swiftspear for Snapcaster - or you're making a statement void of fact (which is a shame because I actually think you know what you're saying 90% of the time...).
In a vacumn, Snapcaster is a better card than Swiftspear, but in the Aggro shell - it seems better to have the aggro creature.
(by the way the only time I ever want Snapcaster in this deck is to go Snap-Bolt. In that case I'd rather play Lava Spike or even Incinerate - ok not really, but you get the point)
Snapcaster versions were Tier 2. They ALSO got the new delve spells and need to be evaluated in that context. You can rest assured that whichever version puts up the first relevant results will become the norm, but until then it is simply speculation.
I have tested both
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I'm happy to accept this as one of those players that played PyroRed back when I last cared about Standard.
That said - that doesn't make you always right
Fair enough, but then your argument is that the addition of Treasure Cruise pushes UR Delver to Tier 1, in spite of people playing the deck sub-optimally by replacing Snapcaster Mage with Monastery Swiftspear.
I've played the Swiftspear version, and not once did I wish it was a Snapcaster.
Most of the time though.
ABSOLUTELY. Ancestral Recall is a mighty powerful card, much more powerful than anything else going on in the format. I even wrote an article about it! I think a lot of these new pilots have no idea the difference that U: draw 3 made to an already fringe tier 1 deck (see above)
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Because its power ceiling is lower than Snapcaster Mage. Its amusing that you think I am "just someone" then try to lecture me with the text of the cards:P Talk about condescending and pointless.
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So in this Modern meta, i'm speaking of MODO, you would advice a snap/monastery ratio of 3-4/0?
To me the place for 4 snapcaster is no more. A 2/1 is irrelevant value and play 2 more mana your spell is a huge tempo loss.
Apply pressure early in the game, eat removals or sometimes dodge them and putting up a clock is far more important in a lighting fast format.
Obviously thiago remains a great card and in the mid game can be backbreaking, but not so crucial like it was before TC.
My snap/monastery ratio right now is 2/4 and i'm fairly happy right now, after testing 3-4/0 and 3/2 ratios...
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater