You beat Affinity mostly via an unanswered Grim Lavamancer, which will slowly wipe his board, Electrolyze and Forked Bolt are also stellar in this match up. I don't think Ancient Grudge is the way to go here because the extra Shockland will hurt your other match ups, and fetching for a Shockland just to maybe play Ancient Grudge that you may or may not draw is not where you want to be. Vandal Blast, Shattering Spree, and Shatterstorm are all cards that are powerful in the match up. I also think I prefer Izzet Staticaster over Electrickery because it's repeatable.
I don't think I'd run more than 1 Deprive, it just seems so awkward to have to play it in the first 4 turns because it stops your Snapcaster from getting good value, and later in the game Cryptic Command is a much, much more powerful card. Serum Visions is one of the best cards in this deck alongside Lightning Bolt, Snapcaster Mage, and Gitaxian Probe, I wouldn't cut it.
You beat Affinity mostly via an unanswered Grim Lavamancer, which will slowly wipe his board, Electrolyze and Forked Bolt are also stellar in this match up. I don't think Ancient Grudge is the way to go here because the extra Shockland will hurt your other match ups, and fetching for a Shockland just to maybe play Ancient Grudge that you may or may not draw is not where you want to be. Vandal Blast, Shattering Spree, and Shatterstorm are all cards that are powerful in the match up. I also think I prefer Izzet Staticaster over Electrickery because it's repeatable.
100% agree about Lavamancer, Electrolyze, and Forked Bolt. Disagree about Grudge. One Breeding Pool is nearly free, and Grudge is the best SB card vs affinity that you'd also want to board in other matchups. Shatterstorm is the actual best. I've had very poor results with both Vandalblast and Shattering Spree. Getting RR early enough to make Spree better than Grudge is often very painful, whereas you can often take your time getting that Breeding Pool before you flash back Grudge since the first half slowed them down. Yes Snapcaster + Spree can be sweet, but then you have to draw Snap and have 4 mana, which is hard to do on time vs Affinity. Vandalblast just never gets overloaded on time. 5 mana is a million mana vs. affinity. Finally, both Vandalblast and Shattering Spree are sorceries. Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, and sometimes Ensoul Artifact have a much better chance of getting you for a large chunk of damage if you have either of those cards instead of Ancient Grudge.
I also recommend trying an Engineered Explosives vs. affinity - it also comes in vs. Bogles and tokens, which is nice for the flexibility.
Thanks alot for advice, but how do you play that matchup. The only way I can see myself playing aggressively is if I go T1 delver on the play. Otherwise I think its better to try to answer affinitys threats. Even on the play holding spell snare mana up turn one is reasonable, as the t1 ravager happens from time to time. This will probably improve once I get 2 grim lavamancers main deck.
Any thoughts on the merfolk matchup. They seem to tempo the tempo deck out easily...
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
Thanks alot for advice, but how do you play that matchup. The only way I can see myself playing aggressively is if I go T1 delver on the play. Otherwise I think its better to try to answer affinitys threats. Even on the play holding spell snare mana up turn one is reasonable, as the t1 ravager happens from time to time. This will probably improve once I get 2 grim lavamancers main deck.
If you really want to beat Affinity game 1, Lavamancers MD do help a lot, but so does Tarmogoyf. The problem with Young Pyro is that it's hard to get damage through without a lot of work to get through random Memnites and manlands, where Goyf powers through whatever and often can indefinitely block an Ensouled Darksteel Citadel - just hope they don't draw a burn spell. Generally, you need to find a source of damage and keep pushing it through because if you don't kill your opponent quickly enough, there's enough topdecks and manlands in affinity that they'll find a way to push through the damage - especially if they're on the Galvanic/Shrapnel blast plan. So the first opportunity you have to stick a threat with relevant mana up, do it. I wouldn't worry about holding mana up on turn 1 in case they have a turn 1 plating - you can't beat every hand they have, so don't sacrifice win % vs the hands you can beat in a futile attempt to beat their best hands. If they nut draw you, take your loss and console yourself with the knowledge that you almost certainly lose anyway if you try to play around it. Then if they don't nut draw you, you have a decent shot to pull it out.
Edit: Also, vs Ravager, try to hold up Bolt mana all the time even if you don't have it. Most affinity players won't try to go all in with Ravager when you do that because they fear the bolt, so that can buy you tons of time. Note that most players are bad here - sometimes, they should just go all in and force you to have the bolt or die. When you do this game 1 and your opponent discovers that you don't have the bolt somehow, then game 2/3 they may be more likely to go all in, but that can work to your advantage since you're often more likely to have the removal spell post board.
Any thoughts on the merfolk matchup. They seem to tempo the tempo deck out easily...
Similar to Affinity except your counterspells are better and the obvious: normal removal spells instead of artifact destruction. Also, they're slower. I haven't played the matchup much, but it feels about 50/50 game 1. Post board you can bring in so much removal though that they're in trouble. Lavamancers and Electrolyzes are gold.
"you can't beat every hand they have, so don't sacrifice win % vs the hands you can beat in a futile attempt to beat their best hands."
this helps me a lot. thanks. Sadly goyfs aren't an option. But Lavamancers will be maindecked, as it is good vs my meta. TheFakeSlimShady argued that electrickery is better than electrolyze in the current modern environment. I can definitely see the upside to it, and I have no plans to play electrolyze in my 75. What do you think?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
"you can't beat every hand they have, so don't sacrifice win % vs the hands you can beat in a futile attempt to beat their best hands."
this helps me a lot. thanks. Sadly goyfs aren't an option. But Lavamancers will be maindecked, as it is good vs my meta. TheFakeSlimShady argued that electrickery is better than electrolyze in the current modern environment. I can definitely see the upside to it, and I have no plans to play electrolyze in my 75. What do you think?
Your welcome!
As a SB card, Electrickery is probably better since it just wrecks token strategies and decks with a lot of x/1's while Electrolyze is slower and merely very good. As a MD card, Electrolyze is clearly the choice since Electrickery does actual nothing against large swaths of the metagame while Electrolyze can always go to the dome while cantriping or combine with a bolt to 1 for 1 (or rather 2 for 2) a 4-5 toughness creature. That being said, you have to ask yourself why you're playing Electrickery in the SB instead of Izzet Staticaster. Electrickery is cheaper, flips Delver, and can be flashed back with Snapcaster but Staticaster often kills the same things the turn you cast it and demands a removal spell, otherwise you effectively lock them out of the game. Personally, I've played 1-2 Electrolyze MD and 1 Staticaster SB in all or almost all of the UR and RUG Delver lists I've played. I haven't tried Electrickery, but I have a hard time believing it's better than Staticaster.
You do NOT go aggressive against Affinity because in a race they will beat you 100% of the time, we are the control deck here that needs to find a way to grind them out. Delver will be on defense duties for most of the game. You can win if you stabilize or out out-tempo them, the latter being extremely difficult.
Merfolk is pretty easy if they don't have a turn 1 AEther Vial, all your counters would be online, and your spells are more efficient and do not rely on synergy. If they do have an AEther Vial, the game is more challenging, but you can 1 for 1 them out of the game unless they draw a ton of Silvergill Adept. Our sideboard is typically much better than their's, the only card that's somewhat strong against us is Kira.
Game 1, I'm on the play and kept a sketch 1 land hand with double Gitaxian Probe. I Probe and see that he's UWR Control, and prepared myself for bad times. Luckily I hit my second land drop on my second Gitaxian Probe on turn 2, and although I bricked on my third land drop, so did he. We play draw go for a few turns, I ended up throwing a 2 Lightning Bolts and a Forked Bolt in his face because I was short on lands. My Grim Lavamancer, Delver got Pathed, which actually helped a ton. I manage to land a Young Pyromancer and Vapor Snag it to keep it from certain death. Young Pyromancer went to work and took the game from there.
-1 Pillar of Flame, -1 Forked Bolt, -1 Electrolyze, -2 Lightning Bolt
+2 Negate, +2 Blood Moon, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Game 2, I have a hand with a ton of threats but no cheap spells. I play a Snapcaster at his EOT, and he Remands it. I top deck a land and slam Blood Moon on his Celestial Colonnade and Plain board. Next turn I Young Pyromancer and when he Lightning Helixes it, I Vapor Snag it again. Young Pyromancer takes it home after a few rounds of him playing Mountain pass.
Round 2: GW Hate Bears
Game 1, I don't remember much of it except I land a Grim Lavamancer and he's unable to answer it. The Grim slowly decimates his board after a few turns.
Game 2, he floods into 5 lands, which I guess is a ton for GW Hatebear. The guy is super salty about losing because I believe he runs Chalice of the Void and Choke. His only threat, a Restoration Angel, I Vapor Snag for 1 turn and then Combust it.
Round 3: Mono U Delver
Game 1, On the play I flip two Delvers early, but opt to not attack with them because we're the control deck in this match up. I run my Grim Lavamancer into his Mana Leak despite seeing it via Gitaxian Probe, a huge mistake on my part because an unanswered Grim Lavamancer wins games against Mono U Delver. He trades his Delver, and Vapor Snags my Delver a couple times EOT. The game goes long because I don't draw any of my red removals and I'm playing conservative around Ninja of the Deep Hours. Eventually I draw my removals and clean his board.
Game 2, I manage to stabilize with my two Delvers, Young Pyromancer and token against his two Delvers and Snapcaster Mage, and he's stuck on 3 lands to my 4 lands, I have a full hand as does he. I play an EOT Snapcaster Mage, he Snapcaster Mages in response, I Spell Snare, he Spell Snares in response, I Spell Pierce. I top deck a land and throw on a Sword of Fire and Ice onto my Young Pyromancer and attack with all (1 Snapcaster, 2 Delvers, 3 tokens, 1 Young Pyromancer with Sword of Fire and Ice equipped). He realizes he has to lose his whole board to survive (he's at 13) and concedes the game.
Round 4: Scapeshift
I draw with Scapeshift for 1st/2nd in a 12 man tournament. When Delver runs hot, it gets there.
It's pretty stock save for the disrupting shoals which in my experience have been pretty decent. Of course, there are times when it is quite dead, but having a free counter that can take out problematic one drops (aether vial for example) before our first turn is pretty nice. It's also nice to be able to tap out for a threat and still have protection for it or counter an opposing threat when your opponent feels it's safe.
The tempo loss is real. I run 2 Sulfur Falls to help improve the Burn match up, but most people don't even like Sulfur Falls for the reason that not having a turn 1 play can set you behind on tempo.
The tempo loss is real. I run 2 Sulfur Falls to help improve the Burn match up, but most people don't even like Sulfur Falls for the reason that not having a turn 1 play can set you behind on tempo.
Flooded to replace Misty then add Path? SB Leyline of Sanctity?
well so far spoiler season is proving to be narrow for U/R Delver, Mindswipe seems like a interesting sb card at least will test it once it becomes available online
I've been tweaking UR Delver on and off for the better part of a year now, and this is the iteration I've been most happy with. The addition of stoke the flames has been huge. Not only does it give you wins out of nowhere, but it also allows you to kill problematic creatures such as restoration angel and deceiver exarch. Side note, when flashing back stoke the flames, snapcaster mage can be used for convoke.
I've won 3 consecutive local events with this list against a field of affinity, pod, ub tezzeret, storm, burn and infect .
//Creature (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Young Pyromancer
He is neat to say the least and his interaction with non-creature spells is truly nice. He could add to some neat combat tricks equipped with a Runechanter's Pike. Question though, is he going to be good late game? Only testing will tell.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
The girl seems really good, most of the time on par with Goblin Guide minus the huge downside of Goblin Guide. It's conceivable to create a version of Delver that cuts Young Pyromancer in favor of Monastery Swiftspear to close out the game much quicker, although it would make the deck more susceptible to creature-based control strategies.
Do you think Howl of the Horde has a slot in the Delver version of the deck to multiply burn or draw spells, or is the card better off in another U/R deck type? Seems Goblin Electromancer would play better with Howl but I wanted to ask for your opinion, for those of you who have played this deck far more than I have.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yesterday was all I had. Today is all I have. Tomorrow is all I want.
Standard: N G A W Y R A Commander:GUB Damia
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I don't think I'd run more than 1 Deprive, it just seems so awkward to have to play it in the first 4 turns because it stops your Snapcaster from getting good value, and later in the game Cryptic Command is a much, much more powerful card. Serum Visions is one of the best cards in this deck alongside Lightning Bolt, Snapcaster Mage, and Gitaxian Probe, I wouldn't cut it.
100% agree about Lavamancer, Electrolyze, and Forked Bolt. Disagree about Grudge. One Breeding Pool is nearly free, and Grudge is the best SB card vs affinity that you'd also want to board in other matchups. Shatterstorm is the actual best. I've had very poor results with both Vandalblast and Shattering Spree. Getting RR early enough to make Spree better than Grudge is often very painful, whereas you can often take your time getting that Breeding Pool before you flash back Grudge since the first half slowed them down. Yes Snapcaster + Spree can be sweet, but then you have to draw Snap and have 4 mana, which is hard to do on time vs Affinity. Vandalblast just never gets overloaded on time. 5 mana is a million mana vs. affinity. Finally, both Vandalblast and Shattering Spree are sorceries. Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, and sometimes Ensoul Artifact have a much better chance of getting you for a large chunk of damage if you have either of those cards instead of Ancient Grudge.
I also recommend trying an Engineered Explosives vs. affinity - it also comes in vs. Bogles and tokens, which is nice for the flexibility.
Any thoughts on the merfolk matchup. They seem to tempo the tempo deck out easily...
If you really want to beat Affinity game 1, Lavamancers MD do help a lot, but so does Tarmogoyf. The problem with Young Pyro is that it's hard to get damage through without a lot of work to get through random Memnites and manlands, where Goyf powers through whatever and often can indefinitely block an Ensouled Darksteel Citadel - just hope they don't draw a burn spell. Generally, you need to find a source of damage and keep pushing it through because if you don't kill your opponent quickly enough, there's enough topdecks and manlands in affinity that they'll find a way to push through the damage - especially if they're on the Galvanic/Shrapnel blast plan. So the first opportunity you have to stick a threat with relevant mana up, do it. I wouldn't worry about holding mana up on turn 1 in case they have a turn 1 plating - you can't beat every hand they have, so don't sacrifice win % vs the hands you can beat in a futile attempt to beat their best hands. If they nut draw you, take your loss and console yourself with the knowledge that you almost certainly lose anyway if you try to play around it. Then if they don't nut draw you, you have a decent shot to pull it out.
Edit: Also, vs Ravager, try to hold up Bolt mana all the time even if you don't have it. Most affinity players won't try to go all in with Ravager when you do that because they fear the bolt, so that can buy you tons of time. Note that most players are bad here - sometimes, they should just go all in and force you to have the bolt or die. When you do this game 1 and your opponent discovers that you don't have the bolt somehow, then game 2/3 they may be more likely to go all in, but that can work to your advantage since you're often more likely to have the removal spell post board.
Similar to Affinity except your counterspells are better and the obvious: normal removal spells instead of artifact destruction. Also, they're slower. I haven't played the matchup much, but it feels about 50/50 game 1. Post board you can bring in so much removal though that they're in trouble. Lavamancers and Electrolyzes are gold.
this helps me a lot. thanks. Sadly goyfs aren't an option. But Lavamancers will be maindecked, as it is good vs my meta. TheFakeSlimShady argued that electrickery is better than electrolyze in the current modern environment. I can definitely see the upside to it, and I have no plans to play electrolyze in my 75. What do you think?
Planning on running 1 Threads and 1 Shackles main.
Thoughts?
Creatures:
Also, is it worth it to splash white for Path to Exile? I'm planning on running 2 Blood Moon maindeck.
Your welcome!
As a SB card, Electrickery is probably better since it just wrecks token strategies and decks with a lot of x/1's while Electrolyze is slower and merely very good. As a MD card, Electrolyze is clearly the choice since Electrickery does actual nothing against large swaths of the metagame while Electrolyze can always go to the dome while cantriping or combine with a bolt to 1 for 1 (or rather 2 for 2) a 4-5 toughness creature. That being said, you have to ask yourself why you're playing Electrickery in the SB instead of Izzet Staticaster. Electrickery is cheaper, flips Delver, and can be flashed back with Snapcaster but Staticaster often kills the same things the turn you cast it and demands a removal spell, otherwise you effectively lock them out of the game. Personally, I've played 1-2 Electrolyze MD and 1 Staticaster SB in all or almost all of the UR and RUG Delver lists I've played. I haven't tried Electrickery, but I have a hard time believing it's better than Staticaster.
Merfolk is pretty easy if they don't have a turn 1 AEther Vial, all your counters would be online, and your spells are more efficient and do not rely on synergy. If they do have an AEther Vial, the game is more challenging, but you can 1 for 1 them out of the game unless they draw a ton of Silvergill Adept. Our sideboard is typically much better than their's, the only card that's somewhat strong against us is Kira.
Round 1: UWR Control
Game 1, I'm on the play and kept a sketch 1 land hand with double Gitaxian Probe. I Probe and see that he's UWR Control, and prepared myself for bad times. Luckily I hit my second land drop on my second Gitaxian Probe on turn 2, and although I bricked on my third land drop, so did he. We play draw go for a few turns, I ended up throwing a 2 Lightning Bolts and a Forked Bolt in his face because I was short on lands. My Grim Lavamancer, Delver got Pathed, which actually helped a ton. I manage to land a Young Pyromancer and Vapor Snag it to keep it from certain death. Young Pyromancer went to work and took the game from there.
-1 Pillar of Flame, -1 Forked Bolt, -1 Electrolyze, -2 Lightning Bolt
+2 Negate, +2 Blood Moon, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Game 2, I have a hand with a ton of threats but no cheap spells. I play a Snapcaster at his EOT, and he Remands it. I top deck a land and slam Blood Moon on his Celestial Colonnade and Plain board. Next turn I Young Pyromancer and when he Lightning Helixes it, I Vapor Snag it again. Young Pyromancer takes it home after a few rounds of him playing Mountain pass.
Round 2: GW Hate Bears
Game 1, I don't remember much of it except I land a Grim Lavamancer and he's unable to answer it. The Grim slowly decimates his board after a few turns.
Game 2, he floods into 5 lands, which I guess is a ton for GW Hatebear. The guy is super salty about losing because I believe he runs Chalice of the Void and Choke. His only threat, a Restoration Angel, I Vapor Snag for 1 turn and then Combust it.
Round 3: Mono U Delver
Game 1, On the play I flip two Delvers early, but opt to not attack with them because we're the control deck in this match up. I run my Grim Lavamancer into his Mana Leak despite seeing it via Gitaxian Probe, a huge mistake on my part because an unanswered Grim Lavamancer wins games against Mono U Delver. He trades his Delver, and Vapor Snags my Delver a couple times EOT. The game goes long because I don't draw any of my red removals and I'm playing conservative around Ninja of the Deep Hours. Eventually I draw my removals and clean his board.
-1 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Cryptic Command, -3 Remand, +1 Spell Pierce, +2 Negate, +1 Izzet Staticaster
Game 2, I manage to stabilize with my two Delvers, Young Pyromancer and token against his two Delvers and Snapcaster Mage, and he's stuck on 3 lands to my 4 lands, I have a full hand as does he. I play an EOT Snapcaster Mage, he Snapcaster Mages in response, I Spell Snare, he Spell Snares in response, I Spell Pierce. I top deck a land and throw on a Sword of Fire and Ice onto my Young Pyromancer and attack with all (1 Snapcaster, 2 Delvers, 3 tokens, 1 Young Pyromancer with Sword of Fire and Ice equipped). He realizes he has to lose his whole board to survive (he's at 13) and concedes the game.
Round 4: Scapeshift
I draw with Scapeshift for 1st/2nd in a 12 man tournament. When Delver runs hot, it gets there.
4x Disrupting Shoal
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Mana Leak
3x Remand
3x Vapor Snag
Creature (14)
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
1x Faerie Conclave
5x Island
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Steam Vents
3x Sulfur Falls
Sorcery (8)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Serum Visions
Artifact (1)
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Blood Moon
2x Combust
2x Counterflux
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Spellskite
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Threads of Disloyalty
It's pretty stock save for the disrupting shoals which in my experience have been pretty decent. Of course, there are times when it is quite dead, but having a free counter that can take out problematic one drops (aether vial for example) before our first turn is pretty nice. It's also nice to be able to tap out for a threat and still have protection for it or counter an opposing threat when your opponent feels it's safe.
Flooded to replace Misty then add Path? SB Leyline of Sanctity?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I've won 3 consecutive local events with this list against a field of affinity, pod, ub tezzeret, storm, burn and infect .
//Creature (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Young Pyromancer
//Instant (18)
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
3 Remand
1 Spell Snare
2 Stoke the Flames
2 Vapor Snag
//Sorcery (9)
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
//Land (18)
6 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Combust
SB: 1 Counterflux
SB: 2 Dispel
SB: 1 Electrickery
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 2 Magma Spray
SB: 1 Negate
SB: 1 Twisted Image
SB: 2 Vandalblast
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Do you think Howl of the Horde has a slot in the Delver version of the deck to multiply burn or draw spells, or is the card better off in another U/R deck type? Seems Goblin Electromancer would play better with Howl but I wanted to ask for your opinion, for those of you who have played this deck far more than I have.
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia