Agreed on all accounts, though I for one am really opposed to running Talrand. I do not see this deck wanting to run such a fragile, sorcery speed 4 drop. And holding onto Probes for that long seems bad when we usually need to dig for something/trigger Young Pyro earlier.
when you talk about a deck you generally always talk about it in terms of your on the play, if your on the draw things are always going to be different as nearly every deck in modern is at a greater disadvantage game 1 on the draw; I think the odds swing 5% in the favor of the person on the play.
like I said I am not against Clique; I also said that I only play online perhaps clique is more relevant where in your local meta. I know where I live twin, tron, & pod are big and clique would be great for the meta. the online meta is erratic since the cards are like 1/5th the cost of paper cards.
stoke is very rarely 4 for 4, and even at that price its generally better than burst lighting since its always 5 for 4 when you need the up side. it also has the up side of very often just being free which I find leads players to miss play more. I'm often tapped out attempting to resolve a removal spell or something, they tap out to counter or restoration angel and we can retarget or just kill the angel.
also the gut shots are great rarely hold them for long, allows us to kills lots of relevant creatures in the early game while still taping out to play our DoS or YP kills Bob, mana dorks, pestermite, opposing YP or preflip delver, hates on GW hatebears. I feel like the pod match up is nearly a auto win with the gut shots, they lean so heavily on their mana dorks that killing it and resolving a delver on our t1 feels back breaking for them, its even sweeter when they t2 play another dork and we get to snap+gut shot it away also.
you don't really hold back for talrand he is simply a super YP in the mid game after your opponent deals with your earlier YP and its tokens. they tend to waste a lot of their removal trying to clear up the board; unless they are on UW control but he helps exhaust their board sweepers also.
also Illusory angel isn't really desired to always be played on the curve, its simply a way better top deck than a delver after the opponent deals with your early threats. I only try to run him out on T3 if I've probed them and they don't have a heavy removal hand or if they have a hand filled with creatures. I also only run 2 because I don't really want them in the opening hand and would rather draw them sometime after t4.
nearly all of the U/R delver decks that have been placing well have abandoned Clique all together MD or SB which I feel vindicates my opinion that it is simply poorly positioned at the moment. I still want it in my SB as its the best card we have against tron and is good against Twin/kiki combo.
also R/U twin combo isn't any worse of a match up, its still about 50/50 dependent on what we draw and if we are on the play. essentially the same as before. I find that U/R/W Kiki combo is a worse match up than U/R twin Imo.
I've also found that probing on t3 is a very good turn to probe anyways since its a turn before most decks want to start implementing their strategy. I've found that t1 probes are normally not that informative as most decks will keep anything with action for the first 2-3 turns. while knowing that your opponent is up to in the start of the mid game is more useful.
I don't like the U/R/W delver deck to be honest. I crush them consistently with blood moon and have lost playing the deck to blood moon against any U/R or mono-R deck that runs it. U/R/W is also a bit on the slow side against us as they run more tapped lands. the mid-range Geist deck is better since they already plan on doing nothing but spot removal/board swipes until they have a safe path for GoST to run to the dome. They also run more lands and have better access to CCommand.
Also this deck is very weak to IoK and seizes in general, that one of the reasons I want to run a few more creatures. Online Surgical Extraction is also on the rise as more popular MD card for B/G/x as it lets them pretty much auto win against some of the combo decks, I'll say that a opponent t1 IoK pitch your YP followed up by SE feels like a almost auto scoop. on the flip side it does make me want to try SE in our SB.
I find that tron is generally a bad match up for this deck no matter what how you build it, blood moon isn't really that great a plan since they run repeal and can repeal it EoT and drop some massive monster right away. its one of the match ups that Clique is great for since it can at least help keep them off of oblivion stone.
With these new fetchlands confirmed should we consider adding different colors to this deck?
All 3 possible splashes have their own threads in completely different parts of the forum. It's worht discussing the option of merging them. Temur Delver Jeskai Delver Grixis Delver
RUG Already has perfect mana. Grixis gains Polluted Delta and Jeskai gains Flooded Strand. Right now I think Jeskai with both pyromancer and geist is good, the geists really help out against the removal-heavy decks that I have trouble against with straight UR and I don't think UR has another threat on the same power level as what the splashes offer.
With these new fetchlands confirmed should we consider adding different colors to this deck?
All 3 possible splashes have their own threads in completely different parts of the forum. It's worht discussing the option of merging them. Temur Delver Jeskai Delver Grixis Delver
RUG Already has perfect mana. Grixis gains Polluted Delta and Jeskai gains Flooded Strand. Right now I think Jeskai with both pyromancer and geist is good, the geists really help out against the removal-heavy decks that I have trouble against with straight UR and I don't think UR has another threat on the same power level as what the splashes offer.
I don't think it changes what Delver does at all. The problem with Geist was never really the mana. Geist is a bit slow and forces you to do a lot of work to make sure the guy can keep getting through - he's better in a more controlling shell, like UWR Geist. Grixis has fantastic mana, but I'm not sure that changes much - the barrier has always been what do you gain from black? There's an argument for maybe running a Wooded Foothills in Temur (RUG), but I'm skeptical.
It does change the metagame though. Jund will have better mana that possibly deals them more damage but is also more blood moon proof. Grixis and Esper control strategies might see some play, and UBx Faeries as well. In addition, there might be a new BGx threat - Sultai (BUG). Imagine the BG shell that forms the base of both Jund and Junk, but with Snapcaster Mage and Cryptic Command backup. I don't know if it's good, but the mana was an issue in the past.
What implications does all of this have for Delver? Hard to say. Based on the stuff I just listed, it seems like we'll get a slower, more midrange / control metagame - which seems bad for Delver. But if that happens, combo and tron might just rise up and crush the new metagame, which is good for Delver. It's hard to say how it will settle down. But I'm glad we get a modern PT to let the pros do something with the new fetches!
Edit: backing off my stance on Grixis Delver a bit - Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant are both excellent cards, and so is frickin' Terminate. Kill your opponent's Goyf's dead. I'm still a little skeptical mainly because the creatures you get from black don't help the Lingering Souls or Electrolyze problems much, though you do get to play discard. Worth exploring.
Edit 2: one interesting implication in UR Delver is you can choose the second U/x fetchland to maximize your opponent's confusion. Are there a ton of people playing Flooded Strand? Use that instead of Misty Rainforest.
anyone here using Delay ? I'm thinking of using it in replacement for Remand
There's some discussion of it upthread, but I think the consensus is that remand is better. If you're looking to cut a remand or two, try Deprive. It has some fans (including me), but others don't like it. If you want to learn more, search the thread.
Is this deck worth playing in paper if your game shop is just infested with syper competitive tier one decks and burn? I have played six rounds against UWR control, Jund, Twin, burn and affinity and I haven't won a single game :\ otjer decks are just too consistant and fast and removal hurts this deck lot because all of them can destroy every one of our so called "threats". All top tier decks are faster or their removal and creature suit just washes the whole deck.
Do you have any tips how to play against UWR control. Matchup feels unbeatable since their whole deck is either removal or bigger threats than ours and they stabilize very fast.
Snapcaster Mage/Young Pyro are you best threats since they will generate value which is vital as most of their removal is 1 for 1. Pyro is the only early threat worth protecting.
Essentially, stay aggressive and try to make them play into the tempo plan but if it becomes apparent that won't happen you need to settle in for a long game and go with the value plan.
SB matters a lot since you get to bring in haymakers like Batterskull, Keranos, Blood Moon etc.
Do you have any tips how to play against UWR control. Matchup feels unbeatable since their whole deck is either removal or bigger threats than ours and they stabilize very fast.
Snapcaster Mage/Young Pyro are you best threats since they will generate value which is vital as most of their removal is 1 for 1. Pyro is the only early threat worth protecting.
Essentially, stay aggressive and try to make them play into the tempo plan but if it becomes apparent that won't happen you need to settle in for a long game and go with the value plan.
SB matters a lot since you get to bring in haymakers like Batterskull, Keranos, Blood Moon etc.
I agree with all of this but I'll add that if the size of their threats is really a problem, this is a spot where adding Tarmogoyf to the deck can really help out. But honestly, UW/UWR control just seems like a bad matchup no matter what you do.
If you run 4 probes 19 lands is totally fine. I recently have been running keranos instead of the skull but that may just be because I'm addicted to bolt and card draw. May want to look into a sword of fire and ice instead of the skull as well. Piller of flame or magma spray seems to be the card you are looking for
I personally despise Sulfur Falls since it can lead to draws that are anathema to this deck. Falls as your only land or double Falls hands without an enabling land are virtually unplayable since we cannot play the tempo game. My builds max out at 2 Falls and my replacements(which vary pretty often) are Tec Edge, Shivan Reef, Desolate Lighthouse and Island.
I like having some non-island blue sources to play around Choke and I prefer Sulfur Falls to Shivan Reef. I also once was able to play around merfolk's islandwalk using Sulfur Falls but that's obviously not something you can expect to happen regularly.
I lost first round against affinity, won the second against slivers, lost the third vs mono R storm-aggro and won the last against living end. Living end seemed easy as long as I had some counterspells in hand. The loss round 3 I blame luck. He played a high varience deck, and got two good hands. GG. (Interesting deck though with Burning-Tree Emissary, red rituals, goblin bushwacker and goblin rabblemaster). Round 2 was an easy win. Not the best player, tier 3 (?) deck. First round I lost to affinity 2-0. He's a player that has played affinity each tournament the last year and plays it very well. It is a matchup I have serious trouble beating. I'll come back to this later. The loss round one meant I didn't got to test the deck against the best decks in the meta. Oh well...
I played Perilous Research and Deprive after reading a post in this thread. I thought it seemed allright and fun. All though Deprive didn't perform as I'd hope, I really liked the research. I tried 2 Electrickery in the 75 and think it's a good call. The Ninja should probably go. It's old tech. I thought of trying 2 Gut Shot, but could only find room for one. I wish I'd play 0. The Boomerang is a personal favourite. Sometimes it wins the game for you turn 2, (turn 1 delver, turn 2 boomerang his land).
It is important that I have a good affinity matchup. It seems to me that it is very hard to rase them. Most affinity opening 7 are just faster than yours. If not they have a lifelinker that I can't race. If not they have the removal for my one delver. Am I wrong? Should I be more aggresive? I boarded Elecktrickery, Shatterstorm, Ancient Grudges and the Magma spray. Please, any advise in this matchup is very welcome.
On a more general note how do you like my version? Any suggestions for change? I am not completely happy with serum visions, thinking of run a 2/2 maybe 3/2 split visions/sleight of hand. I hate drawing a card I don't need, having to wait for the one I want.
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also, aside from blood moon. is there another auto-SB card for this deck?
hi, im new here =D
like I said I am not against Clique; I also said that I only play online perhaps clique is more relevant where in your local meta. I know where I live twin, tron, & pod are big and clique would be great for the meta. the online meta is erratic since the cards are like 1/5th the cost of paper cards.
also the gut shots are great rarely hold them for long, allows us to kills lots of relevant creatures in the early game while still taping out to play our DoS or YP kills Bob, mana dorks, pestermite, opposing YP or preflip delver, hates on GW hatebears. I feel like the pod match up is nearly a auto win with the gut shots, they lean so heavily on their mana dorks that killing it and resolving a delver on our t1 feels back breaking for them, its even sweeter when they t2 play another dork and we get to snap+gut shot it away also.
you don't really hold back for talrand he is simply a super YP in the mid game after your opponent deals with your earlier YP and its tokens. they tend to waste a lot of their removal trying to clear up the board; unless they are on UW control but he helps exhaust their board sweepers also.
also Illusory angel isn't really desired to always be played on the curve, its simply a way better top deck than a delver after the opponent deals with your early threats. I only try to run him out on T3 if I've probed them and they don't have a heavy removal hand or if they have a hand filled with creatures. I also only run 2 because I don't really want them in the opening hand and would rather draw them sometime after t4.
nearly all of the U/R delver decks that have been placing well have abandoned Clique all together MD or SB which I feel vindicates my opinion that it is simply poorly positioned at the moment. I still want it in my SB as its the best card we have against tron and is good against Twin/kiki combo.
also R/U twin combo isn't any worse of a match up, its still about 50/50 dependent on what we draw and if we are on the play. essentially the same as before. I find that U/R/W Kiki combo is a worse match up than U/R twin Imo.
I've also found that probing on t3 is a very good turn to probe anyways since its a turn before most decks want to start implementing their strategy. I've found that t1 probes are normally not that informative as most decks will keep anything with action for the first 2-3 turns. while knowing that your opponent is up to in the start of the mid game is more useful.
I don't like the U/R/W delver deck to be honest. I crush them consistently with blood moon and have lost playing the deck to blood moon against any U/R or mono-R deck that runs it. U/R/W is also a bit on the slow side against us as they run more tapped lands. the mid-range Geist deck is better since they already plan on doing nothing but spot removal/board swipes until they have a safe path for GoST to run to the dome. They also run more lands and have better access to CCommand.
Also this deck is very weak to IoK and seizes in general, that one of the reasons I want to run a few more creatures. Online Surgical Extraction is also on the rise as more popular MD card for B/G/x as it lets them pretty much auto win against some of the combo decks, I'll say that a opponent t1 IoK pitch your YP followed up by SE feels like a almost auto scoop. on the flip side it does make me want to try SE in our SB.
I find that tron is generally a bad match up for this deck no matter what how you build it, blood moon isn't really that great a plan since they run repeal and can repeal it EoT and drop some massive monster right away. its one of the match ups that Clique is great for since it can at least help keep them off of oblivion stone.
The quote button is your friend. It's hard to tell who you're responding to.
All 3 possible splashes have their own threads in completely different parts of the forum. It's worht discussing the option of merging them.
Temur Delver
Jeskai Delver
Grixis Delver
RUG Already has perfect mana. Grixis gains Polluted Delta and Jeskai gains Flooded Strand. Right now I think Jeskai with both pyromancer and geist is good, the geists really help out against the removal-heavy decks that I have trouble against with straight UR and I don't think UR has another threat on the same power level as what the splashes offer.
I don't think it changes what Delver does at all. The problem with Geist was never really the mana. Geist is a bit slow and forces you to do a lot of work to make sure the guy can keep getting through - he's better in a more controlling shell, like UWR Geist. Grixis has fantastic mana, but I'm not sure that changes much - the barrier has always been what do you gain from black? There's an argument for maybe running a Wooded Foothills in Temur (RUG), but I'm skeptical.
It does change the metagame though. Jund will have better mana that possibly deals them more damage but is also more blood moon proof. Grixis and Esper control strategies might see some play, and UBx Faeries as well. In addition, there might be a new BGx threat - Sultai (BUG). Imagine the BG shell that forms the base of both Jund and Junk, but with Snapcaster Mage and Cryptic Command backup. I don't know if it's good, but the mana was an issue in the past.
What implications does all of this have for Delver? Hard to say. Based on the stuff I just listed, it seems like we'll get a slower, more midrange / control metagame - which seems bad for Delver. But if that happens, combo and tron might just rise up and crush the new metagame, which is good for Delver. It's hard to say how it will settle down. But I'm glad we get a modern PT to let the pros do something with the new fetches!
Edit: backing off my stance on Grixis Delver a bit - Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant are both excellent cards, and so is frickin' Terminate. Kill your opponent's Goyf's dead. I'm still a little skeptical mainly because the creatures you get from black don't help the Lingering Souls or Electrolyze problems much, though you do get to play discard. Worth exploring.
Edit 2: one interesting implication in UR Delver is you can choose the second U/x fetchland to maximize your opponent's confusion. Are there a ton of people playing Flooded Strand? Use that instead of Misty Rainforest.
anyone here using Delay ? I'm thinking of using it in replacement for Remand
There's some discussion of it upthread, but I think the consensus is that remand is better. If you're looking to cut a remand or two, try Deprive. It has some fans (including me), but others don't like it. If you want to learn more, search the thread.
Modern
WUBRG
Modern
WUBRG
Essentially, stay aggressive and try to make them play into the tempo plan but if it becomes apparent that won't happen you need to settle in for a long game and go with the value plan.
SB matters a lot since you get to bring in haymakers like Batterskull, Keranos, Blood Moon etc.
I agree with all of this but I'll add that if the size of their threats is really a problem, this is a spot where adding Tarmogoyf to the deck can really help out. But honestly, UW/UWR control just seems like a bad matchup no matter what you do.
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
3 Vapor Snag
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Remand
2 Deprive
2 Spell Pierce
1 Perilous Research
1 Boomerang
1 Gut Shot
1 Electrickery
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Sulfur Falls
7 Island
1 Mountain
3 Blood Moon
2 Hibernation
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
1 Counterflux
1 Dispel
1 Electrickery
1 Magma Spray
1 Back to Nature
1 Shatterstorm.
I lost first round against affinity, won the second against slivers, lost the third vs mono R storm-aggro and won the last against living end. Living end seemed easy as long as I had some counterspells in hand. The loss round 3 I blame luck. He played a high varience deck, and got two good hands. GG. (Interesting deck though with Burning-Tree Emissary, red rituals, goblin bushwacker and goblin rabblemaster). Round 2 was an easy win. Not the best player, tier 3 (?) deck. First round I lost to affinity 2-0. He's a player that has played affinity each tournament the last year and plays it very well. It is a matchup I have serious trouble beating. I'll come back to this later. The loss round one meant I didn't got to test the deck against the best decks in the meta. Oh well...
I played Perilous Research and Deprive after reading a post in this thread. I thought it seemed allright and fun. All though Deprive didn't perform as I'd hope, I really liked the research. I tried 2 Electrickery in the 75 and think it's a good call. The Ninja should probably go. It's old tech. I thought of trying 2 Gut Shot, but could only find room for one. I wish I'd play 0. The Boomerang is a personal favourite. Sometimes it wins the game for you turn 2, (turn 1 delver, turn 2 boomerang his land).
It is important that I have a good affinity matchup. It seems to me that it is very hard to rase them. Most affinity opening 7 are just faster than yours. If not they have a lifelinker that I can't race. If not they have the removal for my one delver. Am I wrong? Should I be more aggresive? I boarded Elecktrickery, Shatterstorm, Ancient Grudges and the Magma spray. Please, any advise in this matchup is very welcome.
On a more general note how do you like my version? Any suggestions for change? I am not completely happy with serum visions, thinking of run a 2/2 maybe 3/2 split visions/sleight of hand. I hate drawing a card I don't need, having to wait for the one I want.