How is Deprive good in the first few turns when you need as many lands on the board as possible? And what did you side out for the 2 Counterflux in the UWR match?
Deprive is often mediocre in the first few turns, but to echo everyone else, the trade-off for getting a hard counter is the mid to late game is worth it. You can't counter Scapeshift with Mana Leak for example, and Tron causes similar problems by casting Wurmcoil Engine or something else with leak mana available. I like 2 of them in the MD, but any more and the lands start becoming a real problem. Vs. UWR, I'm not sure what the best SB strategy is for UR Delver. The matchup is pretty atrocious since all of your creatures die to their removal, so it's hard to stick a threat and protect it. On the other hand, you don't really have much late game staying power either. It's a catch-22 that I never figured out when I was on UR. FWIW, in RUG Delver I like to take a couple of Mana Leaks out along with Spell Pierce and any removal that can't kill a Restoration Angel or Celestial Colonnade - except maybe 1-2 bolts. Counterflux and Combust are decent upgrades, and you should have a couple of haymakers or at least troublesome cards to bring in for the matchup - Batterskull, Keranos, God of Storms, Huntmaster of the Fells, or Thrun, the Last Troll are common options I've seen in UR and RUG. Of course, Blood Moon comes in as well - you need to steal free wins that way. Your opponents will likely board in a Keranos or Batterskull in against you as well, so be prepared.
I'm also pretty new to UR Delver, and one of the challenges I have is making my creatures stick. If I were to delay casting them to have mana up for counterspells, eg. turn 2 delver with spell pierce in hand, won't it slow down the game and be counter-intuitive to the aggressive nature of this deck?
That's one strategy that is often effective - especially against midrange decks that don't put you on a clock before they just win (combo, scapeshift, tron, etc.). A complementary strategy is to play more resilient creatures - namely Tarmogoyf instead of Young Pyromancer. This pushes the convo out of the UR thread and into the RUG thread, but the resilience of Goyf to most of the commonly played removal makes it well worth the splash IMO. Of course, Goyfs are expensive and Pyromancers aren't, so I can certainly understand if you want to avoid that route
Thanks for the replies! I initially thought that this strategy was more for spot removal decks such as BG/x, burn and UWR since we don't have many creatures. Against combo decks, shouldn't we try to land threats as early as possible to finish the game fast?
I do have 3 goyfs, but have been delaying getting the last one haha! I did consider RUG delver, but with blood moons, fulminator mages and tectonic edges running around, I was unsure of the mana base
in Modern i think the best third color for delver decks right now is white. Goyf is strong, but green doesnt offer too much else in the way of cheap utility. white would offer your Giest, path, and helix as well as a number of great sideboard options if you wanted to consider a third color.
that being said a 2 color mana base is not only good because it protects you from land hate, but because it allows you to run land hate (blood moon) efficiently (with 8 cantrips and 10 way to get an island, you can rely on having one by t3)
Thanks for the replies! I initially thought that this strategy was more for spot removal decks such as BG/x, burn and UWR since we don't have many creatures. Against combo decks, shouldn't we try to land threats as early as possible to finish the game fast?
I do have 3 goyfs, but have been delaying getting the last one haha! I did consider RUG delver, but with blood moons, fulminator mages and tectonic edges running around, I was unsure of the mana base
Tectonic Edge is the only real threat to the manabase, and it's not a major one since we can just neglect to play a 4th land without too much cost. I'd be surprised if anyone attacked your manabase in any other way, outside of the occasional Blood Moon out of things like storm or blue moon. There is a cost to the 3rd color, but it's mostly paid in lost life rather than mana inconsistency.
in Modern i think the best third color for delver decks right now is white. Goyf is strong, but green doesnt offer too much else in the way of cheap utility. white would offer your Giest, path, and helix as well as a number of great sideboard options if you wanted to consider a third color.
that being said a 2 color mana base is not only good because it protects you from land hate, but because it allows you to run land hate (blood moon) efficiently (with 8 cantrips and 10 way to get an island, you can rely on having one by t3)
Incoming brain dump about UWR Geist:
I've tried white and I don't really like it. Geist of Saint Traft is a three drop, and that turns out to be a really big deal in modern. You can't cast Geist early then hold up countermagic to prevent your opponent from doing anything, you have to tap low and let your opponent free reign for a turn. Against Storm, Scapeshift, and Tron dropping a turn 3 Geist on the draw may just allow your opponent to kill you or do something that you won't ever be able to come back from. Even on the play vs. Tron and Storm it seems pretty risky. It's also harder to sneak Geist under your opponent's countermagic. In addition, Geist trades with so much of the format that it takes a fair bit of work just to keep the damage flowing, which again has a tendency to make you tap lower on your turn. It's fairly close, but I think Goyf is better because it comes down a turn earlier and can power through most blockers without any problems. In addition, you often are forced to go into plan-B mode where you're playing a midrange game until you can deal with their Goyf or some other PITA blocker. Your own Goyf does a great job of brick walling their attacks while you find a way to deal with their stuff while Geist is only good for racing.
I don't like Lightning Helix at all. It's another bolt, and we have infinite ways to efficiently deal with things that die to bolt. After bolt, the removal needs to be as diverse as possible to kill lots of other things. Pillar of Flame against Pod, Flame Slash for Restoration Angel, Deceiver Exarch and occasionally Goyf. Dismember for bigger Goyfs. Vapor Snag as a catch all. Helix doesn't give you the ability to kill anything that you can't already kill. The life gain is nice, but not really worth it vs most of the field.
Path to Exile is a worthwhile consideration though since it answers so many things that bolt doesn't normally answer. It does make your Mana Leaks and Spell Pierces worse, but it deals with most problematic creatures. The nombo with Blood Moon is annoying as well, and that may be one of the biggest problems with path. Geist + Path may be better than Goyf + nothing, but I'm honestly not sure. White does give you some good SB options, but so does green. Huntmaster of the Fells does exactly what you want in grindy matchups (a lot of them), and Ancient Grudge is the best SB card vs affinity that you can still play against other decks. I'm not entirely sure what white SB cards we really want to play. Suppression Field and Rest in Peace look decent and I suppose Kataki, War's Wage is a decent Ancient Grudge replacement. But it's not huge or anything.
If I was confident that URx Delver could be on the tempo plan for most of the games it plays, I think white for Geist would be better. But the reality is that the format kills your early pressure and forces you into the middle/late game where you often want to topdeck Goyf, not Geist, just to get through their blockers and potentially block yourself without putting in any extra work.
To address your last point, you can run blood moon in RUG Delver. I've had a ton of success with it out of the board against Jund/Junk, UWR, 4 color Gifts, etc. Sure, it's less good than in UR Delver, but it's still really good. Just don't make the same mistake I did at my last PTQ and put Thrun in your SB.
EDIT: I should say that while I have tried UWR Delver, I haven't tried it enough to think that it isn't worth testing. I'm just brain dumping so that anyone else who takes a stab at it understands where the problems seem to be, at least from my perspective, so that they can try to fix them.
i agree with a lot of your points. i wasnt trying to say UWR was better the UR, i was just saying its probably better then RUG or esper delver. whenever i start brainstorming UWR delver i inadvertently move toward cutting delvers for the higher curve #teamgiest tempo deck
i agree with a lot of your points. i wasnt trying to say UWR was better the UR, i was just saying its probably better then RUG or esper delver. whenever i start brainstorming UWR delver i inadvertently move toward cutting delvers for the higher curve #teamgiest tempo deck
I disagree about UWR Delver being better than RUG - I think RUG is the best Delver option, short of testing stuff like BUG or Grixis which I haven't played with so I don't really know much about them. I agree about what UWR Geist has to look like though - no Delvers and a higher curve.
my issues with green.... what are you really getting outside of goyf? delver doesnt really need mana accelerators, so im scratching my head to think of other good cards.
i agree with a lot of your points. i wasnt trying to say UWR was better the UR, i was just saying its probably better then RUG or esper delver. whenever i start brainstorming UWR delver i inadvertently move toward cutting delvers for the higher curve #teamgiest tempo deck
I disagree about UWR Delver being better than RUG - I think RUG is the best Delver option, short of testing stuff like BUG or Grixis which I haven't played with so I don't really know much about them. I agree about what UWR Geist has to look like though - no Delvers and a higher curve.
my issues with green.... what are you really getting outside of goyf? delver doesnt really need mana accelerators, so im scratching my head to think of other good cards.
is that really much better then shatterstorm or replicated shattering spree?
It is, at the very least, marginally more utility. Neither Shatterstorm nor Shattering Spree deal with Inkmoth Nexus. Neither spell can deal with a cast-equip-swing Cranial Plating without allowing them to get in damage. I personally just cut an Island for a Breeding Pool and play Shatterstorm + Grudge as my Affinity hate. I am, however, considering moving toward Hurkyl's Recall with the advent of more Affinity decks playing Ensoul Artifact.
my issues with green.... what are you really getting outside of goyf? delver doesnt really need mana accelerators, so im scratching my head to think of other good cards.
Others mentioned Ancient Grudge. Yes, it's the best anti-affinity option. The problem with Shatterstorm is that it's slow. It's good, but 4 mana is a lot. The first grudge is better against affinity than the first shatterstorm for sure, and I'm pretty sure that the second grudge is also better than the first shatterstorm, but the first shatterstorm is definitely better than the third grudge. That being said, grudge can come in against a bunch of decks that shatterstorm will never come in against. Pod, Infect, anyone you expect to bring batterskull in against you, etc. As far as grudge vs Shattering Spree and/or Vandalblast, the guaranteed 2 for 1 and instant speed of grudge wins out. Truth be told, if I were playing UR Delver, I'd put a Breeding Pool in my MD and play grudge in the SB because it's so good. I made the mistake of not playing grudge in UR Delver at GP Minneapolis and went 1-4 vs affinity between day 1 and day 2 because of it.
You get a couple more options from green. Scavenging Ooze is a card that some have mentioned, and I've had success with 2 in my SB - probably moving 1-2 MD. Huntmaster of the Fells and Thrun, the Last Troll are also good options against midrange and control decks (I'm on the Huntmaster bandwagon right now). But honestly, it's all about Tarmogoyf. The other cards are marginal upgrades but Goyf is the big one. So is grudge, but like I said, I'd play that in UR Delver anyway. Some people like Simic Charm. I haven't tried it, but it is a reasonable way to "counter" Abrupt Decay. Destructive Revelry is another card that seems reasonable in some spots that you could play.
(Sidenote about grudge vs. affinity: now that they're playing Ensoul Artifact, things are a little different. I'm not sure if we need to change our SB plan or not, but I can certainly understand why some people are moving toward stuff like Hurkyl's Recall.)
the only thing i like about UWR delver with geist is it's the best variant against control, which is the weakest matchup by far. i've tried both UR and UWR and the biggest problem with UWR is the lack of basics and the fact that it is much slower than straight UR.
i get that RUG gets access to goyf and flashback on ancient grudge, but i've never felt like the deck really needed it compared to UR. all of the 3 colour variants shut off access to blood moon in the board and the card is still so good against too many decks. sure, some can kill your blood moon, and maybe draw into basics to play around it, but there are too many decks in the format that see a much higher percentage of play that just get slowed to a halt because of a blood moon effect, and by the time they draw out of it, they're dead.
i've also felt that the deck strongly needs spells that replace themselves, so i opt for more electrolyze and remands than a lot of the lists i've seen here.
i've also found that sulfur falls is freaking abysmal in UR delver. there's far too often where my t1 land is sulfur falls and it drives me mad. i'm going to be experimenting with 1-2 of shivan reef and 1-2 of cascade bluffs in replacement of sulfur falls. if i'm ok paying 3 life to fetch and shock myself for a t1 serum visions, i'm certainly fine with paying 2-4 life over the course of a game tapping shivan reefs for coloured mana. i would rather have zero tapped lands and run hotter at the risk of maybe 1-2 points of extra damage on average than have those awful t1 sulfur falls, t2 sulfur falls games.
for the person that asked about getting their creatures to stick, yeah waiting a couple turns in some match ups is perfectly fine. turn 1 serum visions or G-probe is just as good as turn 1 delver most games. also, utilize vapor snag. it's one of your best tools in the deck. i've considered going up from 2 to 3, but i'm just not sure where to make the replacement.
also, as much as it's a 3 cmc spell, Clique has been fantastic for me. i've opted for 1 less young pyromancer and 1 less other spell to run 2 cliques. been very happy with that config.
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Standard:
Nothing Modern:
Cruel Control, UR Delver, RUG midrange, Akroma's Elfmorial EDH:
Animar, Chainer, Derevi the Stonehewer Mystic, Nekusar
Joined so I could share some of my thoughts and experiences with the deck. I began running U/R Delver just over a year ago. As a Chef I work lots of evenings and will come home after my S/O has gone to sleep. So needless to say I jam lots of games throughout any given week. I found my odds about 50/50 in most matches running a fairly stock U/R pyro list. I began experimenting with splashing white or black to try to shift the odds a little bit in my favor (I don't own goyfs so I didn't try green). I still felt like the deck was under performing and I came to these conclusions:
1 - I want a turn 1 Delver every game on the play
2 - I win with burn a high percentage of the time
3 - Splashing a 3rd colour makes Blood Moon worse
4 - Splashing a 3rd colour also makes racing more difficult if you are taking damage off your lands
5 - This may be controversial but I also felt after playing lots of matches that Young Pyro made me take worse lines of play.
I made the decision to try a list without Young Pyro, along with that I took out the Gitaxian Probe. IMHO Probe exists in the deck primarily to play alongside Pyro. Looking at Delver in Legacy (and despite all my reading) I made the decision to run Goblin Guide. I am currently experimenting with 2 Molten Rain in the maindeck as well as additional counters in place of the Probes. This deck is by no means complete (the sideboard in particular I'm aware would benefit greatly by the inclusion of a few key cards) but my overall experience in the past 3 weeks playing this deck has been extremely positive. I'm winning more matches.
The general consensus in my research seemed to suggest that Goblin Guide was poorly positioned. Against large threats I don't find he's any more or less effective than Pyro. Sure Pyro can generate you tokens to block goyfs, but your still durdling until you can find the right combination of burn or blocks to take one down. Against control (Colonnade decks in particular) there seems to be a concern about GG smoothing your opponents draw and ultimately helping them gas out of the early game. Molten Rain and Tec Edge help out tremendously here as they kill Colonnade. Molten Rain in particular takes opponents by surprise and can buy you loads of tempo and time to smash in with delvers or goblins. As long as you don't over extend into a wrath you generally have access to good plays (turn 2 guide next to a flipped delver holding snare or pierce against a lightning helix for example).
Right now in the 2 mans my record is 9-3 including wins against multiple pod variations, affinity, tron (both u and g versions) twin and UWR control. My losses were to Scapeshift, ANT and affinity. Both the scapeshift and affinity match ups I feel I could have played better and against ANT I bemoaned my sideboard. I don't record my results in the tournament practice room but I'm positive I'm at more than 51% to say the least. I hope to have the opportunity to improve the sideboard and then move into some 8 mans over the coming weeks and report back with my results.
In regards to feedback please consider my goal with this list is to gather information about how goblin guide plays in a U/R alongside delver in the current modern meta-game, so he's staying in the deck. Any other feedback or questions are 100% welcome please and thank you.
the only thing i like about UWR delver with geist is it's the best variant against control, which is the weakest matchup by far. i've tried both UR and UWR and the biggest problem with UWR is the lack of basics and the fact that it is much slower than straight UR.
i get that RUG gets access to goyf and flashback on ancient grudge, but i've never felt like the deck really needed it compared to UR. all of the 3 colour variants shut off access to blood moon in the board and the card is still so good against too many decks. sure, some can kill your blood moon, and maybe draw into basics to play around it, but there are too many decks in the format that see a much higher percentage of play that just get slowed to a halt because of a blood moon effect, and by the time they draw out of it, they're dead.
i've also felt that the deck strongly needs spells that replace themselves, so i opt for more electrolyze and remands than a lot of the lists i've seen here.
i've also found that sulfur falls is freaking abysmal in UR delver. there's far too often where my t1 land is sulfur falls and it drives me mad. i'm going to be experimenting with 1-2 of shivan reef and 1-2 of cascade bluffs in replacement of sulfur falls. if i'm ok paying 3 life to fetch and shock myself for a t1 serum visions, i'm certainly fine with paying 2-4 life over the course of a game tapping shivan reefs for coloured mana. i would rather have zero tapped lands and run hotter at the risk of maybe 1-2 points of extra damage on average than have those awful t1 sulfur falls, t2 sulfur falls games.
for the person that asked about getting their creatures to stick, yeah waiting a couple turns in some match ups is perfectly fine. turn 1 serum visions or G-probe is just as good as turn 1 delver most games. also, utilize vapor snag. it's one of your best tools in the deck. i've considered going up from 2 to 3, but i'm just not sure where to make the replacement.
also, as much as it's a 3 cmc spell, Clique has been fantastic for me. i've opted for 1 less young pyromancer and 1 less other spell to run 2 cliques. been very happy with that config.
What I personally like about WUR is what you mentioned. It is stronger against Control and Geist doesn't die to Abrupt Decay like every other threat in the Delver decks do. Also, Path to Exile is much better than Vapor Snag.
Joined so I could share some of my thoughts and experiences with the deck. I began running U/R Delver just over a year ago. As a Chef I work lots of evenings and will come home after my S/O has gone to sleep. So needless to say I jam lots of games throughout any given week. I found my odds about 50/50 in most matches running a fairly stock U/R pyro list. I began experimenting with splashing white or black to try to shift the odds a little bit in my favor (I don't own goyfs so I didn't try green). I still felt like the deck was under performing and I came to these conclusions:
1 - I want a turn 1 Delver every game on the play
2 - I win with burn a high percentage of the time
3 - Splashing a 3rd colour makes Blood Moon worse
4 - Splashing a 3rd colour also makes racing more difficult if you are taking damage off your lands
5 - This may be controversial but I also felt after playing lots of matches that Young Pyro made me take worse lines of play.
I made the decision to try a list without Young Pyro, along with that I took out the Gitaxian Probe. IMHO Probe exists in the deck primarily to play alongside Pyro. Looking at Delver in Legacy (and despite all my reading) I made the decision to run Goblin Guide. I am currently experimenting with 2 Molten Rain in the maindeck as well as additional counters in place of the Probes. This deck is by no means complete (the sideboard in particular I'm aware would benefit greatly by the inclusion of a few key cards) but my overall experience in the past 3 weeks playing this deck has been extremely positive. I'm winning more matches.
The general consensus in my research seemed to suggest that Goblin Guide was poorly positioned. Against large threats I don't find he's any more or less effective than Pyro. Sure Pyro can generate you tokens to block goyfs, but your still durdling until you can find the right combination of burn or blocks to take one down. Against control (Colonnade decks in particular) there seems to be a concern about GG smoothing your opponents draw and ultimately helping them gas out of the early game. Molten Rain and Tec Edge help out tremendously here as they kill Colonnade. Molten Rain in particular takes opponents by surprise and can buy you loads of tempo and time to smash in with delvers or goblins. As long as you don't over extend into a wrath you generally have access to good plays (turn 2 guide next to a flipped delver holding snare or pierce against a lightning helix for example).
Right now in the 2 mans my record is 9-3 including wins against multiple pod variations, affinity, tron (both u and g versions) twin and UWR control. My losses were to Scapeshift, ANT and affinity. Both the scapeshift and affinity match ups I feel I could have played better and against ANT I bemoaned my sideboard. I don't record my results in the tournament practice room but I'm positive I'm at more than 51% to say the least. I hope to have the opportunity to improve the sideboard and then move into some 8 mans over the coming weeks and report back with my results.
In regards to feedback please consider my goal with this list is to gather information about how goblin guide plays in a U/R alongside delver in the current modern meta-game, Smile so he's staying in the deck. Any other feedback or questions are 100% welcome please and thank you.
Thanks for sharing your list with us. By my count, you have 21 instants/sorceries for the delver flip - what is the general consensus for the sweet spot to get delver flips? I thought it was a bit higher
Would you mind explaining the 4 vapor snags? What are the matchups you find them the best - what was your thinking in reaching the different numbers of instants and sorceries?
Re: Blood Moon in 3 color Delver. I've been running it out of RUG Delver and it still works very well. Your opponents are also less likely to play around it in the dark since you're 3 color, so I'm not actually sure if 3 color makes it worse - there's a tradeoff between it hurting you a little bit more and your opponents being less likely to play around it. The key is to not commit heavily to the third color, at least post board.
Re: Goblin Guide in UR (or RUG) Delver in the current modern metagame: I've been doing it for a few months and here's what I've found: you need hard removal to make sure GG keeps getting through, especially since you can no longer overwhelm them with tokens. Try a Dismember and a Flame Slash in your MD over some of those Vapor Snags. Since you're UR and not RUG you might try 2 Dismembers, but I suspect that's still too much life loss. You also still want 15-16 creatures. There's a lot of removal in this format, so you need to make sure you can find another threat in a timely fashion once threat 1 dies. I suspect this means that you want to play GG *alongside* Young Pyromancer, but maybe you want to try Cliques and/or Lavamancers there instead.
Also, be prepared to side GG out a bunch. Vs: BGx Rock, UWR Control (though maybe not vs. UWR Geist) and BW Deadguy Ale (the Craig Wescoe special) for example, the matchup is so grindy that your GGs are a liability and almost any threat would be better - Grim Lavamancer, Vendillion Clique, and Scavenging Ooze are all cards that I could see having the the SB for one reason or another and bring in for GG in these matchups. He's great vs combo and tron though. I also tend to board him out against Affinity and Pod variants to make space for higher impact cards, but I play RUG these days so I have Ooze in the board. I'm not sure about both fronts w/ UR, but cutting GGs for however many Lavamancers you have in the board seems correct in those matchups.
FWIW in the last PTQ I played (w/ RUG) in I sided out GG in every single match I played - but I never played against Scapeshift, Tron, Storm, etc. In testing GG has been absolutely fantastic vs. Scapeshift, especially the GerryT Prismatic Omen version which is better against us AFAICT. Here's what I played against in the PTQ for reference (report in the RUG thread): Junk Rock, BR Rock (Rogue), Melira Pod, Kiki Pod, Affinity x2, Infect, 4 color Gifts. (To come back to Blood Moon, it won me games vs. Gifts and Junk.)
Hi there, I'm new to the deck and just testing it out. I'm curious how the matchup is against mono red burn? Lots of those in local tournaments because it's cheap to make.
Here is the commentary on the deck:
"Cavaglieri made Top 8 of the World Championships in 2009 and is known as a strong deck builder, so I took note of this deck. This is a UR Pyromancer build tuned with a little bit of spice. Illusory Angel is an undercosted, evasive threat that combines well with the cheap spells of this deck, particularly Gitaxian Probe. Talrand, Sky Summoner is essentially a high-powered Young Pyromancer: it costs twice as much and creates tokens twice as large, with flying tacked on for the effort. It's a very natural fit into the deck and allows it to further push spell synergies with the addition of two Gut Shot. Cavaglieri's changes to the deck serve to make it considerably more powerful and capable of generating more board presence. Given that this archetype is high on interaction and speed but sometimes low on threats, these changes are welcome and I am eager to see if the movement towards a more proactive philosophy catches on with other players."
The illusory angel seems pretty sweet, depending on your inclination to tap out. What are the thoughts on these inclusions? Worth spending a heap of time testing?
Hmm but having to tap out to cast either Illusory Angel or Talrand is pretty risky, and Illusory Angel is still a magnet for many spot removals apart from lightning bolt. With Lingering Souls becoming more popular again, I wonder if they are a good addition at this point of time. I think Vendilion Clique is still better than Illusory Angel
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Deprive is often mediocre in the first few turns, but to echo everyone else, the trade-off for getting a hard counter is the mid to late game is worth it. You can't counter Scapeshift with Mana Leak for example, and Tron causes similar problems by casting Wurmcoil Engine or something else with leak mana available. I like 2 of them in the MD, but any more and the lands start becoming a real problem. Vs. UWR, I'm not sure what the best SB strategy is for UR Delver. The matchup is pretty atrocious since all of your creatures die to their removal, so it's hard to stick a threat and protect it. On the other hand, you don't really have much late game staying power either. It's a catch-22 that I never figured out when I was on UR. FWIW, in RUG Delver I like to take a couple of Mana Leaks out along with Spell Pierce and any removal that can't kill a Restoration Angel or Celestial Colonnade - except maybe 1-2 bolts. Counterflux and Combust are decent upgrades, and you should have a couple of haymakers or at least troublesome cards to bring in for the matchup - Batterskull, Keranos, God of Storms, Huntmaster of the Fells, or Thrun, the Last Troll are common options I've seen in UR and RUG. Of course, Blood Moon comes in as well - you need to steal free wins that way. Your opponents will likely board in a Keranos or Batterskull in against you as well, so be prepared.
That's one strategy that is often effective - especially against midrange decks that don't put you on a clock before they just win (combo, scapeshift, tron, etc.). A complementary strategy is to play more resilient creatures - namely Tarmogoyf instead of Young Pyromancer. This pushes the convo out of the UR thread and into the RUG thread, but the resilience of Goyf to most of the commonly played removal makes it well worth the splash IMO. Of course, Goyfs are expensive and Pyromancers aren't, so I can certainly understand if you want to avoid that route
I do have 3 goyfs, but have been delaying getting the last one haha! I did consider RUG delver, but with blood moons, fulminator mages and tectonic edges running around, I was unsure of the mana base
that being said a 2 color mana base is not only good because it protects you from land hate, but because it allows you to run land hate (blood moon) efficiently (with 8 cantrips and 10 way to get an island, you can rely on having one by t3)
Tectonic Edge is the only real threat to the manabase, and it's not a major one since we can just neglect to play a 4th land without too much cost. I'd be surprised if anyone attacked your manabase in any other way, outside of the occasional Blood Moon out of things like storm or blue moon. There is a cost to the 3rd color, but it's mostly paid in lost life rather than mana inconsistency.
Incoming brain dump about UWR Geist:
I've tried white and I don't really like it. Geist of Saint Traft is a three drop, and that turns out to be a really big deal in modern. You can't cast Geist early then hold up countermagic to prevent your opponent from doing anything, you have to tap low and let your opponent free reign for a turn. Against Storm, Scapeshift, and Tron dropping a turn 3 Geist on the draw may just allow your opponent to kill you or do something that you won't ever be able to come back from. Even on the play vs. Tron and Storm it seems pretty risky. It's also harder to sneak Geist under your opponent's countermagic. In addition, Geist trades with so much of the format that it takes a fair bit of work just to keep the damage flowing, which again has a tendency to make you tap lower on your turn. It's fairly close, but I think Goyf is better because it comes down a turn earlier and can power through most blockers without any problems. In addition, you often are forced to go into plan-B mode where you're playing a midrange game until you can deal with their Goyf or some other PITA blocker. Your own Goyf does a great job of brick walling their attacks while you find a way to deal with their stuff while Geist is only good for racing.
I don't like Lightning Helix at all. It's another bolt, and we have infinite ways to efficiently deal with things that die to bolt. After bolt, the removal needs to be as diverse as possible to kill lots of other things. Pillar of Flame against Pod, Flame Slash for Restoration Angel, Deceiver Exarch and occasionally Goyf. Dismember for bigger Goyfs. Vapor Snag as a catch all. Helix doesn't give you the ability to kill anything that you can't already kill. The life gain is nice, but not really worth it vs most of the field.
Path to Exile is a worthwhile consideration though since it answers so many things that bolt doesn't normally answer. It does make your Mana Leaks and Spell Pierces worse, but it deals with most problematic creatures. The nombo with Blood Moon is annoying as well, and that may be one of the biggest problems with path. Geist + Path may be better than Goyf + nothing, but I'm honestly not sure. White does give you some good SB options, but so does green. Huntmaster of the Fells does exactly what you want in grindy matchups (a lot of them), and Ancient Grudge is the best SB card vs affinity that you can still play against other decks. I'm not entirely sure what white SB cards we really want to play. Suppression Field and Rest in Peace look decent and I suppose Kataki, War's Wage is a decent Ancient Grudge replacement. But it's not huge or anything.
If I was confident that URx Delver could be on the tempo plan for most of the games it plays, I think white for Geist would be better. But the reality is that the format kills your early pressure and forces you into the middle/late game where you often want to topdeck Goyf, not Geist, just to get through their blockers and potentially block yourself without putting in any extra work.
To address your last point, you can run blood moon in RUG Delver. I've had a ton of success with it out of the board against Jund/Junk, UWR, 4 color Gifts, etc. Sure, it's less good than in UR Delver, but it's still really good. Just don't make the same mistake I did at my last PTQ and put Thrun in your SB.
EDIT: I should say that while I have tried UWR Delver, I haven't tried it enough to think that it isn't worth testing. I'm just brain dumping so that anyone else who takes a stab at it understands where the problems seem to be, at least from my perspective, so that they can try to fix them.
I disagree about UWR Delver being better than RUG - I think RUG is the best Delver option, short of testing stuff like BUG or Grixis which I haven't played with so I don't really know much about them. I agree about what UWR Geist has to look like though - no Delvers and a higher curve.
Flashback on Ancient Grudge.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
It is, at the very least, marginally more utility. Neither Shatterstorm nor Shattering Spree deal with Inkmoth Nexus. Neither spell can deal with a cast-equip-swing Cranial Plating without allowing them to get in damage. I personally just cut an Island for a Breeding Pool and play Shatterstorm + Grudge as my Affinity hate. I am, however, considering moving toward Hurkyl's Recall with the advent of more Affinity decks playing Ensoul Artifact.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Others mentioned Ancient Grudge. Yes, it's the best anti-affinity option. The problem with Shatterstorm is that it's slow. It's good, but 4 mana is a lot. The first grudge is better against affinity than the first shatterstorm for sure, and I'm pretty sure that the second grudge is also better than the first shatterstorm, but the first shatterstorm is definitely better than the third grudge. That being said, grudge can come in against a bunch of decks that shatterstorm will never come in against. Pod, Infect, anyone you expect to bring batterskull in against you, etc. As far as grudge vs Shattering Spree and/or Vandalblast, the guaranteed 2 for 1 and instant speed of grudge wins out. Truth be told, if I were playing UR Delver, I'd put a Breeding Pool in my MD and play grudge in the SB because it's so good. I made the mistake of not playing grudge in UR Delver at GP Minneapolis and went 1-4 vs affinity between day 1 and day 2 because of it.
You get a couple more options from green. Scavenging Ooze is a card that some have mentioned, and I've had success with 2 in my SB - probably moving 1-2 MD. Huntmaster of the Fells and Thrun, the Last Troll are also good options against midrange and control decks (I'm on the Huntmaster bandwagon right now). But honestly, it's all about Tarmogoyf. The other cards are marginal upgrades but Goyf is the big one. So is grudge, but like I said, I'd play that in UR Delver anyway. Some people like Simic Charm. I haven't tried it, but it is a reasonable way to "counter" Abrupt Decay. Destructive Revelry is another card that seems reasonable in some spots that you could play.
(Sidenote about grudge vs. affinity: now that they're playing Ensoul Artifact, things are a little different. I'm not sure if we need to change our SB plan or not, but I can certainly understand why some people are moving toward stuff like Hurkyl's Recall.)
i get that RUG gets access to goyf and flashback on ancient grudge, but i've never felt like the deck really needed it compared to UR. all of the 3 colour variants shut off access to blood moon in the board and the card is still so good against too many decks. sure, some can kill your blood moon, and maybe draw into basics to play around it, but there are too many decks in the format that see a much higher percentage of play that just get slowed to a halt because of a blood moon effect, and by the time they draw out of it, they're dead.
i've also felt that the deck strongly needs spells that replace themselves, so i opt for more electrolyze and remands than a lot of the lists i've seen here.
i've also found that sulfur falls is freaking abysmal in UR delver. there's far too often where my t1 land is sulfur falls and it drives me mad. i'm going to be experimenting with 1-2 of shivan reef and 1-2 of cascade bluffs in replacement of sulfur falls. if i'm ok paying 3 life to fetch and shock myself for a t1 serum visions, i'm certainly fine with paying 2-4 life over the course of a game tapping shivan reefs for coloured mana. i would rather have zero tapped lands and run hotter at the risk of maybe 1-2 points of extra damage on average than have those awful t1 sulfur falls, t2 sulfur falls games.
for the person that asked about getting their creatures to stick, yeah waiting a couple turns in some match ups is perfectly fine. turn 1 serum visions or G-probe is just as good as turn 1 delver most games. also, utilize vapor snag. it's one of your best tools in the deck. i've considered going up from 2 to 3, but i'm just not sure where to make the replacement.
also, as much as it's a 3 cmc spell, Clique has been fantastic for me. i've opted for 1 less young pyromancer and 1 less other spell to run 2 cliques. been very happy with that config.
Nothing
Modern:
Cruel Control, UR Delver, RUG midrange, Akroma's Elfmorial
EDH:
Animar, Chainer, Derevi the Stonehewer Mystic, Nekusar
a single bluffs can't fall victim to that. i won't run more than 2 reefs.
Nothing
Modern:
Cruel Control, UR Delver, RUG midrange, Akroma's Elfmorial
EDH:
Animar, Chainer, Derevi the Stonehewer Mystic, Nekusar
Joined so I could share some of my thoughts and experiences with the deck. I began running U/R Delver just over a year ago. As a Chef I work lots of evenings and will come home after my S/O has gone to sleep. So needless to say I jam lots of games throughout any given week. I found my odds about 50/50 in most matches running a fairly stock U/R pyro list. I began experimenting with splashing white or black to try to shift the odds a little bit in my favor (I don't own goyfs so I didn't try green). I still felt like the deck was under performing and I came to these conclusions:
1 - I want a turn 1 Delver every game on the play
2 - I win with burn a high percentage of the time
3 - Splashing a 3rd colour makes Blood Moon worse
4 - Splashing a 3rd colour also makes racing more difficult if you are taking damage off your lands
5 - This may be controversial but I also felt after playing lots of matches that Young Pyro made me take worse lines of play.
I made the decision to try a list without Young Pyro, along with that I took out the Gitaxian Probe. IMHO Probe exists in the deck primarily to play alongside Pyro. Looking at Delver in Legacy (and despite all my reading) I made the decision to run Goblin Guide. I am currently experimenting with 2 Molten Rain in the maindeck as well as additional counters in place of the Probes. This deck is by no means complete (the sideboard in particular I'm aware would benefit greatly by the inclusion of a few key cards) but my overall experience in the past 3 weeks playing this deck has been extremely positive. I'm winning more matches.
The general consensus in my research seemed to suggest that Goblin Guide was poorly positioned. Against large threats I don't find he's any more or less effective than Pyro. Sure Pyro can generate you tokens to block goyfs, but your still durdling until you can find the right combination of burn or blocks to take one down. Against control (Colonnade decks in particular) there seems to be a concern about GG smoothing your opponents draw and ultimately helping them gas out of the early game. Molten Rain and Tec Edge help out tremendously here as they kill Colonnade. Molten Rain in particular takes opponents by surprise and can buy you loads of tempo and time to smash in with delvers or goblins. As long as you don't over extend into a wrath you generally have access to good plays (turn 2 guide next to a flipped delver holding snare or pierce against a lightning helix for example).
Right now in the 2 mans my record is 9-3 including wins against multiple pod variations, affinity, tron (both u and g versions) twin and UWR control. My losses were to Scapeshift, ANT and affinity. Both the scapeshift and affinity match ups I feel I could have played better and against ANT I bemoaned my sideboard. I don't record my results in the tournament practice room but I'm positive I'm at more than 51% to say the least. I hope to have the opportunity to improve the sideboard and then move into some 8 mans over the coming weeks and report back with my results.
In regards to feedback please consider my goal with this list is to gather information about how goblin guide plays in a U/R alongside delver in the current modern meta-game, so he's staying in the deck. Any other feedback or questions are 100% welcome please and thank you.
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
4 Serum Visions
3 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Vapor Snag
2 Spell Pierce
4 Island
3 Mountain
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Goblin Guide
2 Spell Snare
2 Molten Rain
3 Arid Mesa
2 Blood Moon
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Dispel
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Snare
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Magma Spray
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Izzet Staticaster
What I personally like about WUR is what you mentioned. It is stronger against Control and Geist doesn't die to Abrupt Decay like every other threat in the Delver decks do. Also, Path to Exile is much better than Vapor Snag.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Thanks for sharing your list with us. By my count, you have 21 instants/sorceries for the delver flip - what is the general consensus for the sweet spot to get delver flips? I thought it was a bit higher
Would you mind explaining the 4 vapor snags? What are the matchups you find them the best - what was your thinking in reaching the different numbers of instants and sorceries?
Have you been missing young pyro at all?
Re: Goblin Guide in UR (or RUG) Delver in the current modern metagame: I've been doing it for a few months and here's what I've found: you need hard removal to make sure GG keeps getting through, especially since you can no longer overwhelm them with tokens. Try a Dismember and a Flame Slash in your MD over some of those Vapor Snags. Since you're UR and not RUG you might try 2 Dismembers, but I suspect that's still too much life loss. You also still want 15-16 creatures. There's a lot of removal in this format, so you need to make sure you can find another threat in a timely fashion once threat 1 dies. I suspect this means that you want to play GG *alongside* Young Pyromancer, but maybe you want to try Cliques and/or Lavamancers there instead.
Also, be prepared to side GG out a bunch. Vs: BGx Rock, UWR Control (though maybe not vs. UWR Geist) and BW Deadguy Ale (the Craig Wescoe special) for example, the matchup is so grindy that your GGs are a liability and almost any threat would be better - Grim Lavamancer, Vendillion Clique, and Scavenging Ooze are all cards that I could see having the the SB for one reason or another and bring in for GG in these matchups. He's great vs combo and tron though. I also tend to board him out against Affinity and Pod variants to make space for higher impact cards, but I play RUG these days so I have Ooze in the board. I'm not sure about both fronts w/ UR, but cutting GGs for however many Lavamancers you have in the board seems correct in those matchups.
FWIW in the last PTQ I played (w/ RUG) in I sided out GG in every single match I played - but I never played against Scapeshift, Tron, Storm, etc. In testing GG has been absolutely fantastic vs. Scapeshift, especially the GerryT Prismatic Omen version which is better against us AFAICT. Here's what I played against in the PTQ for reference (report in the RUG thread): Junk Rock, BR Rock (Rogue), Melira Pod, Kiki Pod, Affinity x2, Infect, 4 color Gifts. (To come back to Blood Moon, it won me games vs. Gifts and Junk.)
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Illusory Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Talrand, Sky Summoner
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
1 Spell Pierce
3 Vapor Snag
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Blood Moon
2 Combust
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Shattering Spree
1 Spell Pierce
Here is the commentary on the deck:
"Cavaglieri made Top 8 of the World Championships in 2009 and is known as a strong deck builder, so I took note of this deck. This is a UR Pyromancer build tuned with a little bit of spice. Illusory Angel is an undercosted, evasive threat that combines well with the cheap spells of this deck, particularly Gitaxian Probe. Talrand, Sky Summoner is essentially a high-powered Young Pyromancer: it costs twice as much and creates tokens twice as large, with flying tacked on for the effort. It's a very natural fit into the deck and allows it to further push spell synergies with the addition of two Gut Shot. Cavaglieri's changes to the deck serve to make it considerably more powerful and capable of generating more board presence. Given that this archetype is high on interaction and speed but sometimes low on threats, these changes are welcome and I am eager to see if the movement towards a more proactive philosophy catches on with other players."
The illusory angel seems pretty sweet, depending on your inclination to tap out. What are the thoughts on these inclusions? Worth spending a heap of time testing?