This is my current take on UR Delver. It's tinkered to beat small creature decks and big and greedy manabase decks. The midrange matchup needs to be tested more, but it's definitely weaker than the Grixis version against that.
I have tried this deck for the first time yesterday at my local FNM and got a 4-0 out of it, so I am pretty happy. (Even if I had one "automatic win" because we were an uneven number of players...)
This is a nice, suicidal version of this deck, that goes "all in".
Current questions I have:
1.) Maybe more Young Pyromancer / other creatures in the main board?
2.) Maybe Lava Spikes in the main board?
3.) What do I do vs. Kitchen Finks? More Torpor Orb?
4.) Have you tried Pillar of Flame or Searing Blood in the sideboard?
I play a similar list, but instead of Young Pyromancer I play 2 copies of Blistercoil Weird wich has the same prowess mechanic and gives you 10 creatures total that you can play on turn one, It can dodge creature tapping spells and can be played both offensive and deffensive. Also has synergy with Clout of the Dominus wich I find useful as sideboard card since my worse matchups are the ones with lots of removal. Have you consider mutagenic growth in the main?
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"The sparkmage shrieked, calling on the rage of the storms of his youth. To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again."
So has anyone seen this card? It's called Chaos Reveler. I think it may have some potential here. It's basically Treasure Cruise on a stick. I'm going to start by testing these as a 3 of.
Been testing Reveler as a three of, and it seems absurd. You fetch a little differently as you sometimes need triple red to cast this and another red spell in the same turn. Sometimes it feels like a RR treasure cruise that you can replay with Vapor Snag.
Not sure about the counter suite, number of forked bolts, and whether to try twisted image atm. Cantrips are very important. Izzet Charm or similar seems necessary to filter multiple Revelers. Sometimes feel like I want four Revelers, but worry about multiples in hand. Thoughts?
Been testing Reveler as a three of, and it seems absurd. You fetch a little differently as you sometimes need triple red to cast this and another red spell in the same turn. Sometimes it feels like a RR treasure cruise that you can replay with Vapor Snag.
Not sure about the counter suite, number of forked bolts, and whether to try twisted image atm. Cantrips are very important. Izzet Charm or similar seems necessary to filter multiple Revelers. Sometimes feel like I want four Revelers, but worry about multiples in hand. Thoughts?
Personally i think the biggest debate people will have if swiftspear is worth running, or that SCM is the better option.
Because Reveler is such a big threat when it is on the board, I think a better approach would be going for a more controlling version and gaining card advantage through SCM.
Revelers discard clause also helps with this, since you will be less hesitant of discarding a hand with usefull spells, if you know you can buy them back with SCM.
Also i think it is not necesary to use other cards to prevent having multiple Revelers in your hand. Card selection with sleight and serum should be sufficient, and even then discarding a second copy of reveler is not a big deal. Think of brainstorming and fetching, theoretically it only draws you 1 card, but in practice due to the power of card selection it is more like 2-3.
This all being said, i would replace the swiftspear with SCM, probe with sleight, and charm with mana leak.
Also I am not a big fan of running 4 copies of vapor snag. It can be a dead card against certain matchups, even if you have the option of bouncing your own creatures.
Also going up to 20 lands seems prudent since this deck wants to run with 4 lands in play.
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Give credit, where credit is due. Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found. The whip is kept for special occasions
The Internet was a revelation to me, I never imagined there are so many idiots on this planet.
It seems to me that Reveler is at its best in a deck that quickly dumps its hand to fill the board with cheap, aggresive threats, and the graveyard with cheap, efficient instants and sorceries. Because of the discard clause, it just doesn't seem as good in a deck that wants to hold onto a grip of reactive spells. I want to be low to the ground, aggresive and full of cheap spells that support prowess when I play this card, and I want Swiftspear because the only downside to that card is running out of gas after a few turns and that is no longer such a problem.
I did consider Snapcaster, and it could well be worth it, but it didn't seem such a great play before the first Reveler as it competes for the same resource and six instant/sorcery is no small feat. Discarding good cards with Reveler on the grounds that you can snap them back seems to defeat the purpose for me. The value of both Snap and Reveler comes from casting the cards in your hand before flashback or discard-draw 3. That said it's an awesome card and may deserve a spot or two anyway.
It could be variance on my side (I haven't done the math) but 18 lands feels fine with this many cantrips, and hitting the first four has been pretty consistent. I would increase the count if playing Snapcaster, of course.
Izzet Charm is possibly unecessary. two is certainly overkill, but I like it as a one of here. It helps fill the yard, filter excess lands and Revelers, and the other modes are pretty useful. But yeah, it's inefficient and costing two isn't so great when you're trying to fire off quick Revelers.
Haha, well Brainstorm pretty much singlehandly solves selection for legacy. Drew too many Revelers? Just shuffle 'em away. We don't get that in Modern, hence the Charm.
Sleight of Hand just falls short of the mark for me. Probes play so well with Pyromancer and Swiftspear, and when your objective is to fill the yard quickly, a zero mana cantrip that gives perfect information trumps one mana scry one and draw.
Shaving a Vapor Snag could be correct but we've so few ways of tackling big creatures in UR and bouncing a Reveler is pure value. Still, maybe Mana Leak could take a spot.
My objective here is to be low to the ground and agressive in order maximise the potential of Reveler. I hope that this helps explain my initial card choices here and the direction I envisioned the deck taking.
For now, -1 Vapor Snag, -1 Izzet charm, +2 Mana Leak is what I'll test.
However, I can definitely see a more controlling version of UR with Snapcaster, Delver, Pyro, and 2-of Reveler. One that looks to play a typical protect the queen game, trading one for one and sneaking in damage until both players are out of gas then dropping Reveler to take over. It's just that I think UR's strength lies in the aggressive tempo plan, and it's weakness is running out of gas. I see this card as a way to bolster that weakness.
TL;DR: Reveler's discard clause and prowess lends itself to a more aggressive, proactive plan, and its etb supports Swiftspear and Pyromancer more than anything else.
It doesn't make sense to me to discard good cards to Reveler on the grounds that you can flashback them with Snapcaster. Both cards want you to actually play your spells first for maximum value. So playing both together leads to slower Revelers and more chances of drawing multiples, and thus the Snapcaster version of the deck probably only wants a couple of Revelers maindeck.
Personally i think the biggest debate people will have if swiftspear is worth running, or that SCM is the better option.
Because Reveler is such a big threat when it is on the board, I think a better approach would be going for a more controlling version and gaining card advantage through SCM.
Revelers discard clause also helps with this, since you will be less hesitant of discarding a hand with usefull spells, if you know you can buy them back with SCM.
Also i think it is not necesary to use other cards to prevent having multiple Revelers in your hand. Card selection with sleight and serum should be sufficient, and even then discarding a second copy of reveler is not a big deal. Think of brainstorming and fetching, theoretically it only draws you 1 card, but in practice due to the power of card selection it is more like 2-3.
This all being said, i would replace the swiftspear with SCM, probe with sleight, and charm with mana leak.
Also I am not a big fan of running 4 copies of vapor snag. It can be a dead card against certain matchups, even if you have the option of bouncing your own creatures.
Also going up to 20 lands seems prudent since this deck wants to run with 4 lands in play.
Check out this article for a build featuring Snapcaster and another build with Swiftspears. Pretty silly not to run 4 of these guys in the aggro shell IMO.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
TL;DR: Reveler's discard clause and prowess lends itself to a more aggressive, proactive plan, and its etb supports Swiftspear and Pyromancer more than anything else.
It doesn't make sense to me to discard good cards to Reveler on the grounds that you can flashback them with Snapcaster. Both cards want you to actually play your spells first for maximum value. So playing both together leads to slower Revelers and more chances of drawing multiples, and thus the Snapcaster version of the deck probably only wants a couple of Revelers maindeck.
I've been looking into the archetype with Reveler being spoiled, is Disrupting Shoal something worth running, or does the exile clause make the reveler harder to cast?
This is something I wondered too. When you look at the instant/sorcery count and the number of cantrips, the mean average cards drawn by turn four will be 13-14, just under half of which will be instants and sorceries, and not accounting for variance. So it's already tight to get enough in your yard to make this cheap by then and I think Shoal would push is too far. On the other hand, it's another free spell and great in a deck that can draw three reliably, so perhaps it's worth testing. My gut tells me the deck can't support it though.
Edit: Wow, I like the look of Jordan's decks there. The Traverse The Ulvenwlad list looks sweet and since I've been brewing the card, I definitely want to check that out. His UR delver burn looks nice too, more aggressive than where I was but perhaps that's correct. I might miss counterspells though. Lots to test here
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'd rather have 4 Serum Visions and 4 Gitaxian Probe. Thought scour is not so good early on in this UR sell. When you just want to hit your next card, having to spend U just for a cantrip is a bad tempo play. I also think the information from probe is more relevant than milling myself most of the time.
I mean, Reveler will be playable in the mid game just from playing our usual game. There's no need to rush this guy on turn 2 or 3, since we have to discard our hand. If we're gonna change our game just to slam this guy early on, it's much better to just play grixis.
I find that Reveler can be put to it's best use by playing in a more tempo-focused style, using snags and efficient red removal to come ahead in the early game, then dropping Reveler to refill our hand later.
After testing Bedlam Reveler I moved it to the side. Even then, I am not sure if I just want Ancestral or Curious Homunculus over it. It operates on a different axis than we do.
1. Drawing another copy while holding another one is a dead card. We can never cast it unless we had a way to put cards back on our library.
2. It does not work well with holding up permission, as it both delays casting Reveler and it makes us discard whatever we were holding.
3. It can be bounced back to our hand with the trigger on the stack, which can come up vs Cryptic Command decks.
I think the card belongs in dedicated proactive strategies. I am going down to one copy in my 75.
Hey I took a peek at this thread since I'm trying an izzet build but more tempo/control oriented and wanted to know opinions about some new cards (bedlam mostly)
1. Drawing another [Bedlam Reveler] copy while holding another one is a dead card. We can never cast it unless we had a way to put cards back on our library.
I feel that in this sense a black splash or going full grixis would be better just for Kolaghan's command alone.
Yeah I know it's a bad play. Just saying that bounce can become permanent removal with the trigger on the stack. It's not a huge thing but you see Vapor Snag in Merfolk and mirrors.
Yeah I know it's a bad play. Just saying that bounce can become permanent removal with the trigger on the stack. It's not a huge thing but you see Vapor Snag in Merfolk and mirrors.
Doesn't matter, you're still drawing 3 cards in a Bolt deck with multiple ways to refill.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I don't think Stormchaser is good enough in Modern. We want to be as low-to-the-ground as possible in these colors. My initial testing went pretty well but I'm mostly trying RUG builds now because I just like it better.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I've tested a little with a similar controling/tempo version (with counter magic) and wasn't fond of Bedlam Reveler, even as a 2-of. Was playing with Grim Lavamancers as proxies for Bedlam Revelers and wished they were real Lavamancers every time.
Really? What have you played against? In my testing (not so extensive) I won every game that I played him. That included jund, abzan company and other stuff I can't remember.
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4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Blood Moon
3 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
4 Island
(11 Sorceries):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Forked Bolt
1 Flame Slash
(15 Instants):
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Vapor Snag
1 Electrolyze
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
1 Remand
1 Deprive
2 Dismember
2 Molten Rain
3 Firespout
1 Spell Snare
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Electrolyze
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Negate
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
I play a similar list, but instead of Young Pyromancer I play 2 copies of Blistercoil Weird wich has the same prowess mechanic and gives you 10 creatures total that you can play on turn one, It can dodge creature tapping spells and can be played both offensive and deffensive. Also has synergy with Clout of the Dominus wich I find useful as sideboard card since my worse matchups are the ones with lots of removal. Have you consider mutagenic growth in the main?
http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/chaosreveler.html
I'm gonna play this deck until he gets banned, just like Cruise was
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Bedlam Reveler
3 Young Pyromancer
Instants (18)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
4 Vapor Snag
2 Izzet Charm
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Forked Bolt
Land (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstaind Mire
4 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
2 Mountain
Not sure about the counter suite, number of forked bolts, and whether to try twisted image atm. Cantrips are very important. Izzet Charm or similar seems necessary to filter multiple Revelers. Sometimes feel like I want four Revelers, but worry about multiples in hand. Thoughts?
Personally i think the biggest debate people will have if swiftspear is worth running, or that SCM is the better option.
Because Reveler is such a big threat when it is on the board, I think a better approach would be going for a more controlling version and gaining card advantage through SCM.
Revelers discard clause also helps with this, since you will be less hesitant of discarding a hand with usefull spells, if you know you can buy them back with SCM.
Also i think it is not necesary to use other cards to prevent having multiple Revelers in your hand. Card selection with sleight and serum should be sufficient, and even then discarding a second copy of reveler is not a big deal. Think of brainstorming and fetching, theoretically it only draws you 1 card, but in practice due to the power of card selection it is more like 2-3.
This all being said, i would replace the swiftspear with SCM, probe with sleight, and charm with mana leak.
Also I am not a big fan of running 4 copies of vapor snag. It can be a dead card against certain matchups, even if you have the option of bouncing your own creatures.
Also going up to 20 lands seems prudent since this deck wants to run with 4 lands in play.
Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found.
The whip is kept for special occasions
I did consider Snapcaster, and it could well be worth it, but it didn't seem such a great play before the first Reveler as it competes for the same resource and six instant/sorcery is no small feat. Discarding good cards with Reveler on the grounds that you can snap them back seems to defeat the purpose for me. The value of both Snap and Reveler comes from casting the cards in your hand before flashback or discard-draw 3. That said it's an awesome card and may deserve a spot or two anyway.
It could be variance on my side (I haven't done the math) but 18 lands feels fine with this many cantrips, and hitting the first four has been pretty consistent. I would increase the count if playing Snapcaster, of course.
Izzet Charm is possibly unecessary. two is certainly overkill, but I like it as a one of here. It helps fill the yard, filter excess lands and Revelers, and the other modes are pretty useful. But yeah, it's inefficient and costing two isn't so great when you're trying to fire off quick Revelers.
Haha, well Brainstorm pretty much singlehandly solves selection for legacy. Drew too many Revelers? Just shuffle 'em away. We don't get that in Modern, hence the Charm.
Sleight of Hand just falls short of the mark for me. Probes play so well with Pyromancer and Swiftspear, and when your objective is to fill the yard quickly, a zero mana cantrip that gives perfect information trumps one mana scry one and draw.
Shaving a Vapor Snag could be correct but we've so few ways of tackling big creatures in UR and bouncing a Reveler is pure value. Still, maybe Mana Leak could take a spot.
My objective here is to be low to the ground and agressive in order maximise the potential of Reveler. I hope that this helps explain my initial card choices here and the direction I envisioned the deck taking.
For now, -1 Vapor Snag, -1 Izzet charm, +2 Mana Leak is what I'll test.
However, I can definitely see a more controlling version of UR with Snapcaster, Delver, Pyro, and 2-of Reveler. One that looks to play a typical protect the queen game, trading one for one and sneaking in damage until both players are out of gas then dropping Reveler to take over. It's just that I think UR's strength lies in the aggressive tempo plan, and it's weakness is running out of gas. I see this card as a way to bolster that weakness.
TL;DR: Reveler's discard clause and prowess lends itself to a more aggressive, proactive plan, and its etb supports Swiftspear and Pyromancer more than anything else.
It doesn't make sense to me to discard good cards to Reveler on the grounds that you can flashback them with Snapcaster. Both cards want you to actually play your spells first for maximum value. So playing both together leads to slower Revelers and more chances of drawing multiples, and thus the Snapcaster version of the deck probably only wants a couple of Revelers maindeck.
http://modernnexus.com/goyfing-cruising-grim-flayer-chaos-reveler-modern/
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
This is something I wondered too. When you look at the instant/sorcery count and the number of cantrips, the mean average cards drawn by turn four will be 13-14, just under half of which will be instants and sorceries, and not accounting for variance. So it's already tight to get enough in your yard to make this cheap by then and I think Shoal would push is too far. On the other hand, it's another free spell and great in a deck that can draw three reliably, so perhaps it's worth testing. My gut tells me the deck can't support it though.
Edit: Wow, I like the look of Jordan's decks there. The Traverse The Ulvenwlad list looks sweet and since I've been brewing the card, I definitely want to check that out. His UR delver burn looks nice too, more aggressive than where I was but perhaps that's correct. I might miss counterspells though. Lots to test here
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning bolt
3 Spell Snare
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Deprive
1 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
2 Electrolyze
1 Flame Slash
1 Forked Bolt
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I mean, Reveler will be playable in the mid game just from playing our usual game. There's no need to rush this guy on turn 2 or 3, since we have to discard our hand. If we're gonna change our game just to slam this guy early on, it's much better to just play grixis.
I find that Reveler can be put to it's best use by playing in a more tempo-focused style, using snags and efficient red removal to come ahead in the early game, then dropping Reveler to refill our hand later.
1. Drawing another copy while holding another one is a dead card. We can never cast it unless we had a way to put cards back on our library.
2. It does not work well with holding up permission, as it both delays casting Reveler and it makes us discard whatever we were holding.
3. It can be bounced back to our hand with the trigger on the stack, which can come up vs Cryptic Command decks.
I think the card belongs in dedicated proactive strategies. I am going down to one copy in my 75.
with counterspells
You don't want conditional effects - just burn, dudes, and cantrips.
Counters should be in sideboard, when you absolutely need them
I feel that in this sense a black splash or going full grixis would be better just for Kolaghan's command alone.
Yeah Ancestral Vision is a better card for permission decks, but I wonder if it would be the same for tempo based decks.
This is a bad play IMO, since you (the cryptic player) would still be giving away 3 cards, it would be better to hard counter it.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I've tested a little with a similar controling/tempo version (with counter magic) and wasn't fond of Bedlam Reveler, even as a 2-of. Was playing with Grim Lavamancers as proxies for Bedlam Revelers and wished they were real Lavamancers every time.