I still haven't bought into a deck. BG or UG better? I was looking into BG because the shocks/fetches are cheaper. And Duty-Bound Dead
GU is better, with Blighted Agent being unblockable, if u couldn't affort the noble hierarch is way better to replace with 1 or 2 catherdral of war.
Also blue gives some cantrips, spell pierce and bounces
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I've done some playtesting tonight with MonoGreen Infect (Necropedes MD and SB from UltraMagnus's list.); and I've found that I have fair and winnable match-ups against Affinity and even better post-boarding.
the black discard versions your refering too are usually mono black and use artifacts to pump there creatures to a lethal size. such as lashwrithe and runechanter's pike.
the argument for crusader though is that he has built in answers to decks that are dependent on burn effects in order to stabalize against you, he makes such match ups easier if he lands, and first strike makes him a beast against non white non red creatures. (plus theres several nich situations that are bad for infect and he isn't stopped by.)
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I just played a pretty awesome game against UW Tron. I was slow playing my Ichorclaw Myr until turn three because I saw he had white mana open for Path to Exile and I wanted to leave mana up for Vines of Vastwood. I thought that he was playing control at this point. Turn 4, he played Gifts Ungiven to place Unburial Rites and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in his graveyard. Little did he know that I had my only two maindeck Dismembers in hand. What luck! I promptly killed his Elesh Norn after he reanimated it. Later, he tried to slow me down by casting a Detention Sphere on my Ichorclaw Myr without letting me respond. But I stopped him, played my Vines of Vastwood, and won 2 turns later.
The UWR matchup is favorable for the Infect player. I have some trouble against the Geist lists, but because they are all so slow to win, you can accumulate a critical mass of protection in hand and build up mana. Let them Electrolyze and Helix/Bolt you a couple of times before laying down your win condition and letting them have it. That's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it, but it works for me.
He is unlikely to miss land drops, and if you both go to high land count he can find tectonic edge for your nexus. His spells are simply more mana-efficient - on the turn you decide to go all in you need 2 mana to activate nexus and attack, then one to pump, and one to give protection from bolt - and then he could have mana leak or spell pierce or even dispel postboard. I'm not even talking about spellskite here. If you dont have perfect hand of, like, groundswell plus 2 mutagenic plus 2 guttural response with nexus and cathedral on board - you will lose the counter war. And if you plan to let them counter your spells and just play another - sometimes you are low on green sources - you will need, like, four, and 3 colorless lands is not that unusual for this deck.
The UWR matchup is favorable for the Infect player. I have some trouble against the Geist lists, but because they are all so slow to win, you can accumulate a critical mass of protection in hand and build up mana. Let them Electrolyze and Helix/Bolt you a couple of times before laying down your win condition and letting them have it. That's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it, but it works for me.
He is unlikely to miss land drops, and if you both go to high land count he can find tectonic edge for your nexus. His spells are simply more mana-efficient - on the turn you decide to go all in you need 2 mana to activate nexus and attack, then one to pump, and one to give protection from bolt - and then he could have mana leak or spell pierce or even dispel postboard. I'm not even talking about spellskite here. If you dont have perfect hand of, like, groundswell plus 2 mutagenic plus 2 guttural response with nexus and cathedral on board - you will lose the counter war. And if you plan to let them counter your spells and just play another - sometimes you are low on green sources - you will need, like, four, and 3 colorless lands is not that unusual for this deck.
Hi my name is experience, and your paragraph is theory-crafting, combining ideal situations for the opponent and unfortunate situations for us. I'm undefeated against UWR control in dailies and queues. I lost once in a queue to a list with Geist, but I've also beaten the lists many times as well. I don't know what ungodly stack you have in mind for the requirements to go off, but really the only spell that matters is the final Vines of Vastwood after lethal has been established. Yeah, I've been blown out before, but only when I calculated that I had to win because I was going to lose next turn, and never more than once in a match.
American control in the hands of someone at a PTQ is a different animal than online sallies. Many online only players compare online dailies to Grand Prix or pro tour level play but it is closer to noviepce level Friday night magic level play. I'd you don't belive me take a look at pros taking theory decks through daily events.
One video I saw a guy playing a mox opal-less affinity list, another time I saw an America control deck not running cryptic command, and ran a lightning strike in place of a lightning bolt.
And even at small store levels. Paper is generally more competitive becuase people run their spare full power tournament decks at them. Not really the case with mtgo especially with the v4 nonsense
Question, how are you guys fairing against UR delver as mono green? UB seems pretty well positioned post board, but mono Green I am still struggling with. Any advice? Unlike with UWR control I can't afford to slow my pace down to sculpt a nice hand.
Well, maybe he just got lucky and always had it all..
Can you tell me your sideboard for this matchup?
Well if you're playing America control and the guy has zero fetch lands, is playing against infect and electrolytes or bolts YOU then you know you're in a favorable matchup becuase it's like racing a 13 year old girl who is burning the clutch and grinding gears.
Uwr control is a bad matchup, vendillion, snap asters, bolts, Helix, cryptic command and mana leak are all a thorn.
If they don't board out remand, or sphinx then they don't know what they're doing.
And there are a lot of bad America control players on mtgo. I've played them before. Running the theros god and running less than optimal colonnades, in a PTQ nobody is going to helix you for 3 when you have 5 mana and 5 cards in hand playing infect unless it's for lethal
Boarding out remand is a tricky move. It is totally OK for a control player to remand a 2-mana infect creature (which i side out, but maybe some players do not..) or Wild Defiance, which is quite nice against them. And even dismember.
I've got some playtesting against Zoo and GW Hatebears. the GW Hatebears match-ups are fine; Necropede pulling some weight to help deal with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. The (Naya) Zoo match-up however... I feel it's 50/50 but I feel I may be playing it wrong. Should I be tapping out to cast my infect creatures, or do I cast them with protection mana open for Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, and Lightning Helix? :/
Well, maybe he just got lucky and always had it all..
Can you tell me your sideboard for this matchup?
Well if you're playing America control and the guy has zero fetch lands, is playing against infect and electrolytes or bolts YOU then you know you're in a favorable matchup becuase it's like racing a 13 year old girl who is burning the clutch and grinding gears.
Uwr control is a bad matchup, vendillion, snap asters, bolts, Helix, cryptic command and mana leak are all a thorn.
If they don't board out remand, or sphinx then they don't know what they're doing.
And there are a lot of bad America control players on mtgo. I've played them before. Running the theros god and running less than optimal colonnades, in a PTQ nobody is going to helix you for 3 when you have 5 mana and 5 cards in hand playing infect unless it's for lethal
You repeatedly make bold claims in this thread (infect is a glass cannon, infect is weak to uwr control, etc), that many experienced infect players disagree with. You claim dailies are soft. Im curious as to exactly what experience you are basing your assertion that UWR is a bad matchup off of. Do you regularly play against Pro Tour/GP top 8 caliber players, and have significant testing experience against them?
So, youve seen people online make budget choices in a daily. Thus, you discount daily results? This is pretty flawed reasoning. The majority of online players are more skilled than the majority of paper players, because playing more makes you better at this game and online players have that opportunity. All this is coming from a paper player.
drinkard claims significant testing experience shows UWR is not a bad matchup. This does not sway you.
My personal experience. At 5-1 at my last PTQ, I played vs UWR control and won. I drew into top 8, then played UWR again (this time winning 2-0). At my local store, I regularly play against Kyle Boggemes who plays UWR control, and we agree the matchup is very close to even, possibly slightly favoring infect. Kyle has won a recent GP playing a control deck (albeit in standard) and made the finals of a Pro Tour, so hopefully that is sufficient proof he knows what he is talking about. I think my match record vs Kyle infect vs uwr is either even or im up a match lifetime.
So, Ill admit, if your opponent is very skilled, its tough. The thing is, Kyle has played me a bunch of times, and knows my deck. Even very good uwr pilots probably arent used to playing such a fringe matchup. However, even if your opponent is very skilled and knows the matchup, I think its a coinflip matchup at worst.
Overall, my record vs UWR is probably closer to 70% win. Obviously the matchup is not so lopsided, but I think an equally skilled infect player vs an equally skilled UWR control player should favor infect, given that UWR is the more popular deck, so the infect player is presumably more experienced in that matchup.
Note: all this applies for my particular list. Different infect lists may have very different UWR control matchups.
It has been long established infect is a glass cannon, it was a glass cannon when it was a tier 1 deck in modern ( little bit of history with blazing shoal, please google it before you comment on it seriously...guys google it...blazing shoal was banned becuase of infect, read before you comment. Google it..)
And now that it is tier 3 " deck creation" under this forums sticky post for what defines tier 2 is not met. But that is a technicality. Is even more so.
Manaless dredge is more reliable for god sakes.
But i digress, there are so many games I see where uwr remands mutagenic growth....or they do weird stuff like try to burn deck race infect...when a control player knows how to take down infect it's easy.
I don't discount your friends efforts, but he is doing something very wrong if he can't beat a tier 3 fringe budget deck with a protour level control deck. That doesn't even run fetchlands. Does he not know then to lightning helix, how tap down the creatures that you're swinging with as a result of pump spells being played? Is he not playing path to exile, i think it is best to examine what your friend is doing wrong rather than what you're doing right. What is he boarding in? Let's examine his play not yours.
There are 3 serious control players at my store, who do participate in the pro tour qualifiers ( across state lines) that I put up zero resistance against most of the time. Inkmoth nexus is the only pest for control but path to exile turns it into a bad version of evolving wilds.
I have been placing first place locally when the control and twin players fail to show up. However, any serious deck is a tough match up for infect. I take the posts about how America control is junk and easy for infect, with a grain of salt. The deck is largely considered a great deck to play so you see where these doubts emerge. Especially if it is an mtgo event
So the only thing we can gather from this argument is that horrible_at_magic is appropriately named and can't win a good match-up.
Here are some assertions he's making:
1) Infect players don't know how to play around Cryptic Command.
-False. In fact, from this quote:
Does he not know then to lightning helix, how tap down the creatures that you're swinging with as a result of pump spells being played?
He doesn't even recognize that Might of Old Krosa has been dropped from most lists, and Cryptic Command tap->Draw is a pretty bad play after attackers are being declared, when pump spells are being played (during declare blockers step).
2) Fetchlands are required for a high-level deck.
he is doing something very wrong if he can't beat a tier 3 fringe budget deck with a protour level control deck. That doesn't even run fetchlands.
Take that, Tron, Affinity, and Burn.
3) He can't win a match-up, therefore the match-up is bad.
Let's nevermind the fact that he continuously trolls Infect threads, acknowledging that he plays and has played the deck, and continued to say how bad it is.
Ok so here's what I think happened: he cashed out of the deck before it blew up, and he's regretting it. And if he can't have any fun, no one can.
Terrible at reading, horrendous at logic, horrible at Magic. No Googling required. It's all here.
How is this deck budget, and why are you assuming I am playing the monogreen version without fetches?? The deck is probably at least $400-$500, in line with decks like affinity.
I specifically mentioned in my post: "Note: all this applies for my particular list. Different infect lists may have very different UWR control matchups."
Lines like "It has been long established infect is a glass cannon, it was a glass cannon when it was a tier 1 deck in modern ( little bit of history with blazing shoal, please google it before you comment on it seriously...guys google it...blazing shoal was banned becuase of infect, read before you comment. Google it..)" are just insulting everyone's intelligence, and makes me think you are simply a troll. Why would we google it, I would guess a large fraction of players know why blazing shoal got banned. The definition of 'glass cannon' is subjective, but I would contend that if a deck like UWR control is a fair matchup, that directly implies infect is NOT a glass cannon.
"I don't discount your friends efforts, but he is doing something very wrong if he can't beat a tier 3 fringe budget deck with a protour level control deck."
Ok. So, you think someone who took 1st place at a 1000+ player grand prix piloting control, who has won several tens of thousands playing magic, is not a reasonable player, or you simply didnt read my post.
Your experience is playing against PTQ level players. Ok, not unreasonable. But if you accept that people who travel for PTQ's are good, it doesnt make sense that you discount the fact that I beat UWR control in the top8 of a PTQ, and won my win-and-in against UWR control at the same PTQ.
"However, any serious deck is a tough match up for infect."
I just started playing PTQ's (only played 2 so far), and am by no means the best player ever. My record in the swiss portion of PTQ's discounting intentional draws with infect vs tier decks is 12-3. My record at the FNM level is 58-12.
Now, you mention twin as a challenging match-up for infect. There I agree. I dont think twin is a terrible matchup, but they are probably favored.
"I take the posts about how America control is junk and easy for infect, with a grain of salt."
America control is fine. I dont think its amazing but its a solid real deck. I dont think its 'easy' for infect. I think its a very close matchup for pilots of equal skill/experience playing the matchup.
The Twin match-up is so much harder than the UWR control match-up because they actually have some inevitability and clock. UWR simply takes too long to win.
And if you don't get ELectrolyzed or Lightning Helixed, then I can only assume you're playing like an idiot or your opponent is playing like an idiot and instead of targeting your dome with these spells, he is discarding them. There is a period for a lot of decks against UWR where you let them get to 8 cards and discard or use resources on you before proceeding with the game plan.
And now that it is tier 3 " deck creation" under this forums sticky post for what defines tier 2 is not met. But that is a technicality. Is even more so.
Mtgo-stats it. Google it. Look it up. Read something. This forum requires 17 dailies at 4-0 or 3-1 in the past three months to be established. http://www.mtgo-stats.com/cards/Cathedral of War
Look it up. Read. Google it. Google it.
These are only the Cathedral lists.. There are many more UG and BUG. There are 20 results in June and July.
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GU is better, with Blighted Agent being unblockable, if u couldn't affort the noble hierarch is way better to replace with 1 or 2 catherdral of war.
Also blue gives some cantrips, spell pierce and bounces
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Also, since most GU lists only run Breeding Pools as blue sources, any green coloured fetch will do. Verdant Catacombs are fine as fetches.
However, I played against Blue Moon and the match-up was just terrible o.0 Spell Snare, Mana Leak, Lightning Bolt, Electrolyze... then Snapcaster Mage all those... plus Spreading Seas and Blood Moon for the Inkmoth Nexii.... how do we board and play against this?? I'm thinking: -4 Mutagenic Growth, -2 Groundswell, -2 Dismember, +2 Guttural Response, +2 Spellskite, +4 Nature's Claim but I could be wrong... and IDK how I should play against it. :/ Help please?
my black green list doesn't run with discard, its got all of the pumps that blue green does. only trade off is phyrexian crusader v blighted agent (or even blighted agent v plague stinger)
the black discard versions your refering too are usually mono black and use artifacts to pump there creatures to a lethal size. such as lashwrithe and runechanter's pike.
the argument for crusader though is that he has built in answers to decks that are dependent on burn effects in order to stabalize against you, he makes such match ups easier if he lands, and first strike makes him a beast against non white non red creatures. (plus theres several nich situations that are bad for infect and he isn't stopped by.)
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UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
He is unlikely to miss land drops, and if you both go to high land count he can find tectonic edge for your nexus. His spells are simply more mana-efficient - on the turn you decide to go all in you need 2 mana to activate nexus and attack, then one to pump, and one to give protection from bolt - and then he could have mana leak or spell pierce or even dispel postboard. I'm not even talking about spellskite here. If you dont have perfect hand of, like, groundswell plus 2 mutagenic plus 2 guttural response with nexus and cathedral on board - you will lose the counter war. And if you plan to let them counter your spells and just play another - sometimes you are low on green sources - you will need, like, four, and 3 colorless lands is not that unusual for this deck.
Can you tell me your sideboard for this matchup?
One video I saw a guy playing a mox opal-less affinity list, another time I saw an America control deck not running cryptic command, and ran a lightning strike in place of a lightning bolt.
And even at small store levels. Paper is generally more competitive becuase people run their spare full power tournament decks at them. Not really the case with mtgo especially with the v4 nonsense
Well if you're playing America control and the guy has zero fetch lands, is playing against infect and electrolytes or bolts YOU then you know you're in a favorable matchup becuase it's like racing a 13 year old girl who is burning the clutch and grinding gears.
Uwr control is a bad matchup, vendillion, snap asters, bolts, Helix, cryptic command and mana leak are all a thorn.
If they don't board out remand, or sphinx then they don't know what they're doing.
And there are a lot of bad America control players on mtgo. I've played them before. Running the theros god and running less than optimal colonnades, in a PTQ nobody is going to helix you for 3 when you have 5 mana and 5 cards in hand playing infect unless it's for lethal
You repeatedly make bold claims in this thread (infect is a glass cannon, infect is weak to uwr control, etc), that many experienced infect players disagree with. You claim dailies are soft. Im curious as to exactly what experience you are basing your assertion that UWR is a bad matchup off of. Do you regularly play against Pro Tour/GP top 8 caliber players, and have significant testing experience against them?
So, youve seen people online make budget choices in a daily. Thus, you discount daily results? This is pretty flawed reasoning. The majority of online players are more skilled than the majority of paper players, because playing more makes you better at this game and online players have that opportunity. All this is coming from a paper player.
drinkard claims significant testing experience shows UWR is not a bad matchup. This does not sway you.
My personal experience. At 5-1 at my last PTQ, I played vs UWR control and won. I drew into top 8, then played UWR again (this time winning 2-0). At my local store, I regularly play against Kyle Boggemes who plays UWR control, and we agree the matchup is very close to even, possibly slightly favoring infect. Kyle has won a recent GP playing a control deck (albeit in standard) and made the finals of a Pro Tour, so hopefully that is sufficient proof he knows what he is talking about. I think my match record vs Kyle infect vs uwr is either even or im up a match lifetime.
So, Ill admit, if your opponent is very skilled, its tough. The thing is, Kyle has played me a bunch of times, and knows my deck. Even very good uwr pilots probably arent used to playing such a fringe matchup. However, even if your opponent is very skilled and knows the matchup, I think its a coinflip matchup at worst.
Overall, my record vs UWR is probably closer to 70% win. Obviously the matchup is not so lopsided, but I think an equally skilled infect player vs an equally skilled UWR control player should favor infect, given that UWR is the more popular deck, so the infect player is presumably more experienced in that matchup.
Note: all this applies for my particular list. Different infect lists may have very different UWR control matchups.
And now that it is tier 3 " deck creation" under this forums sticky post for what defines tier 2 is not met. But that is a technicality. Is even more so.
Manaless dredge is more reliable for god sakes.
But i digress, there are so many games I see where uwr remands mutagenic growth....or they do weird stuff like try to burn deck race infect...when a control player knows how to take down infect it's easy.
I don't discount your friends efforts, but he is doing something very wrong if he can't beat a tier 3 fringe budget deck with a protour level control deck. That doesn't even run fetchlands. Does he not know then to lightning helix, how tap down the creatures that you're swinging with as a result of pump spells being played? Is he not playing path to exile, i think it is best to examine what your friend is doing wrong rather than what you're doing right. What is he boarding in? Let's examine his play not yours.
There are 3 serious control players at my store, who do participate in the pro tour qualifiers ( across state lines) that I put up zero resistance against most of the time. Inkmoth nexus is the only pest for control but path to exile turns it into a bad version of evolving wilds.
I have been placing first place locally when the control and twin players fail to show up. However, any serious deck is a tough match up for infect. I take the posts about how America control is junk and easy for infect, with a grain of salt. The deck is largely considered a great deck to play so you see where these doubts emerge. Especially if it is an mtgo event
Here are some assertions he's making:
1) Infect players don't know how to play around Cryptic Command.
-False. In fact, from this quote:
He doesn't even recognize that Might of Old Krosa has been dropped from most lists, and Cryptic Command tap->Draw is a pretty bad play after attackers are being declared, when pump spells are being played (during declare blockers step).
2) Fetchlands are required for a high-level deck.
Take that, Tron, Affinity, and Burn.
3) He can't win a match-up, therefore the match-up is bad.
Let's nevermind the fact that he continuously trolls Infect threads, acknowledging that he plays and has played the deck, and continued to say how bad it is.
Ok so here's what I think happened: he cashed out of the deck before it blew up, and he's regretting it. And if he can't have any fun, no one can.
Terrible at reading, horrendous at logic, horrible at Magic. No Googling required. It's all here.
"tier 3 fringe budget deck"
How is this deck budget, and why are you assuming I am playing the monogreen version without fetches?? The deck is probably at least $400-$500, in line with decks like affinity.
For clarification, my list is at: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=7862&d=245273&f=MO
I specifically mentioned in my post: "Note: all this applies for my particular list. Different infect lists may have very different UWR control matchups."
Lines like "It has been long established infect is a glass cannon, it was a glass cannon when it was a tier 1 deck in modern ( little bit of history with blazing shoal, please google it before you comment on it seriously...guys google it...blazing shoal was banned becuase of infect, read before you comment. Google it..)" are just insulting everyone's intelligence, and makes me think you are simply a troll. Why would we google it, I would guess a large fraction of players know why blazing shoal got banned. The definition of 'glass cannon' is subjective, but I would contend that if a deck like UWR control is a fair matchup, that directly implies infect is NOT a glass cannon.
"I don't discount your friends efforts, but he is doing something very wrong if he can't beat a tier 3 fringe budget deck with a protour level control deck."
Ok. So, you think someone who took 1st place at a 1000+ player grand prix piloting control, who has won several tens of thousands playing magic, is not a reasonable player, or you simply didnt read my post.
Your experience is playing against PTQ level players. Ok, not unreasonable. But if you accept that people who travel for PTQ's are good, it doesnt make sense that you discount the fact that I beat UWR control in the top8 of a PTQ, and won my win-and-in against UWR control at the same PTQ.
"However, any serious deck is a tough match up for infect."
I just started playing PTQ's (only played 2 so far), and am by no means the best player ever. My record in the swiss portion of PTQ's discounting intentional draws with infect vs tier decks is 12-3. My record at the FNM level is 58-12.
Now, you mention twin as a challenging match-up for infect. There I agree. I dont think twin is a terrible matchup, but they are probably favored.
"I take the posts about how America control is junk and easy for infect, with a grain of salt."
America control is fine. I dont think its amazing but its a solid real deck. I dont think its 'easy' for infect. I think its a very close matchup for pilots of equal skill/experience playing the matchup.
And if you don't get ELectrolyzed or Lightning Helixed, then I can only assume you're playing like an idiot or your opponent is playing like an idiot and instead of targeting your dome with these spells, he is discarding them. There is a period for a lot of decks against UWR where you let them get to 8 cards and discard or use resources on you before proceeding with the game plan.
Mtgo-stats it. Google it. Look it up. Read something. This forum requires 17 dailies at 4-0 or 3-1 in the past three months to be established.
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/cards/Cathedral of War
Look it up. Read. Google it. Google it.
These are only the Cathedral lists.. There are many more UG and BUG. There are 20 results in June and July.