Rob likes the looks of Todd's list quite a bit more than that list posted. Mutagenic Growths are fine, but he doesn't like the feel of 4 of them. Distortion Strike seems like a card that might be really good depending on the meta. We actually just put up another video of infect last night, it's against lantern because Orson is positive he'll be playing it at the next tournament we go to. Link to video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ_TgCYcU-8
Wild Defiance looks pretty interesting. Are there decks besides jund and burn where you really want the card?
If you're new to the deck, it's hard to appreciate the actual impact specific card choices will have. It's hard to any a reasonable idea about what he 'likes' if he just picked up the deck. Starting with a stock list allows you to evaluate the strength of the standard choices and gives you a reference for whatever cards you decide to check out. Going with a highly metagamed list as a starting point gives a warped feeling for the deck.
Different card choices that fit a players playstyle can go a very long way on whether someone will "like" a deck. A list of cards that could go into the deck is great resource, for sure. A "stock" list is fine, but without context such as the metagame, that deck will always feel lacking.
Although Rob had never played infect before, he had played against it. Watching opponents play can go a long way to teaching you which cards seem to work or not, as long as you are looking to learn. That warped feeling you talk about applies more to looking at a metagamed deck well after it's metagame decisions were relevant.
Thought exercise: If a format stays stagnant for a long time, does the metagamed deck eventually become the "stock list"?
Distortion Strike is a meta call at best. It's good at making Glistener Elf slighty better vs decks. However, neither Tom Ross or Todd Anderson are playing any, and I have to agree that having more cantrips maindeck is better than distortion strike. Both of them have moved at least one Twisted Image main, and their more recent lists (9/18) on Starcity show neither of them playing Mutagenic Growth either.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Hello all! I am here to introduce a couple new ideas that may or may not work... (They have been working for me though).
The first of these is to change the focus from a combo, spell-based glass-cannon build into a more general aggro, creature-based build. This would involve the introduction of more creatures, like Ichorclaw Myr, to make the general strategy more proactive with more creatures and less reactive with protection spells. This new strategy would make use of the persistance of creatures and spell flexibility with cards like Rancor, and make less use of cantrips and single-shot, single-effect cards like Become Immense.
The second strategy (which is not my original idea) is to capitalize on a backup beatdown strategy exemplified with a few Geist of Saint Traft in the sideboard, in order to punish opponents who either bring in removal against us and/or lower their own life totals quicker than normal by fetching and shocking more liberally in an attempt to match our blistering pace. This straregy allows us to play our Glistener Elfes into their Dismembers, then unleash our six power hexproof beater.
I have devised a (somewhat rogue) build that effectively combines these two new strategies. It also introduces a sideboard and mainboard tempo strategy, to dismantle combo decks by countering their finisher and throw off aggro builds by nullifying their alpha strike. This kind of deck is extremely difficult to face, and has fared very well against T1 decks like Jund 'Em Out and Grixis Control, since it has both a solid G1 and G2 strategy. It is adjusted for a meta heavy in creatures and removal.
I encourage you all to playtest this deck and see how it works. I personally have had great amounts of success with it, and fully intend on building it in paper and taking it on some local tournaments.
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I can't get on board with this. The reasons to play Infect are to be explosive and constantly "make them have it". The middling aggro plan is really flat because Infect is not a strong enough mechanic to support what you're attempting. Trying to play like Zoo w/pumps instead of burn opens you up to all their problems while not improving on any of Infect's problems. Especially once you consider that Infect creatures on the whole are pretty crap. Wild Nacatls and Tarmogoyfs they aren't.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
At first I was hesitant of Monastery Siege but then i read the "YOU" clause so that REALLY slows them down. 2 copies will suffice? :/ But I already have 3 Wild Defiance total. What should i take out and against what other match-ups do you bring Monastery Siege in? Thanks so much!
placed the removal package in of PTEs because there aren't a lot of Affinity or mirror matches here; and the deck just sometimes really dies if I can't get rid of certain dorks.
Ohyeah; another thing. I'm pretty sure I haven't been using my Gitaxian Probes optimally, even though they have been helpful. Usually if I have it in my opening hand, I pay 2 life right away so I can plan out my plays as early as Turn 1 or sometimes draw into my Turn1 play. Is this right? Also, when should I use my extra copies that I draw? Advice from the masters here would be nice; thanks in advance!
@KeMT: Ohhh thanks so much! I guess I've been okay with my Turn1 Probes then. :)) Alrighty will try out those guidelines for Monastery Siege. Thanks again!
How's your Jund matchup and what's your sideboard plan against it? I personally would prefer a blacker version if i'd to go in the midrange field, however i'll be curious to see how yours work, let us know about your results and your sideboard plans, something like Dawn Charm is pretty confusing for me.
I side out a lot of my protection and i side in my Geist of Saint Traft, Vapor Snag, Dryad Arbor if i smell a Liliana of the Veil, possibly Dawn Charm to fight against untargeted removal and Tarmogoyf swings. Jund is more than happy to shock their lands and Dismember my infect creatures, and i am more than happy to let them. I watch and play the field long enough to where they have lowered their own life quite a bit; then i open a can of Geist of Saint Traft when they are at 12 life.
I include Dawn Charm as insurance against many things. It saves my creatures from mass destruction, saves my face from a Boros Charm or Inquisition of Kozilek, or can embarrass a Splinter Twin player who thinks they just won. It is a bit expensive as far as mana goes, but i like it a lot.
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How does Geist help against Jund? He can be discarded or easily blocked by Goyf/Confidant. Doesnt seem like a good choice to me, maybe a cute trick that will work once
Does anyone still play the BUG version of infect? I'm new to modern and was wanting to play BUG, mostly for semi-competitive recreational play and once in a blue moon FNM play, but I've noticed everything BUG is a year old. Is it no longer viable? Or is U/G just that much better?
Does anyone still play the BUG version of infect? I'm new to modern and was wanting to play BUG, mostly for semi-competitive recreational play and once in a blue moon FNM play, but I've noticed everything BUG is a year old. Is it no longer viable? Or is U/G just that much better?
UG is more consistent and has a much less painful manabase. Splashing black is almost always for an extra infect creature (plague stinger), which has more cons than pros when you can just throw in ichorclaw myr if you want more creatures in UG.
What do you guys think about a playset of Gitaxian Probes in a monogreen list? I feel like the life we keep from our manabase can help offset the mandatory burn from phyrexian mana. This is what I'm currently playing as a sort of explosive combo version of monogreen infect
2nd place without Apostle's Blessing. Interesting.
Looking for a little insight on going up to 3 Breeding Pools from 2 and swapping out the 3rd Forest for it. Sideboarding into at least 2x Spell Pierce/Dispel is a little demanding on blue mana. I was usually taking out Gitaxian Probes, but they're color neutral so relying on 4x Nobles and 2x Breeding Pools feels strained to me. Any input?
So after going 3-1 at my locals with Infect, I have almost had a Change of Heart about Distortion Strike. I miraculously survived an Emrakul, and the only card that would have got me out of the situation was Strike. Instead, I had a Twisted Image. Strike would have won me that game, and it felt like that particular choice was mocking me.
On the other hand, my only match loss was to Twin and I went 1-2. The best part was that I won game 1 and I did it by Hierarch Beatdown. It was great.
Anyways, back to Strike. I am thinking about running only 1 in the main. I can't bring myself to run it in the side because it is just kinda dumb in the side. If anyone wants to know what my matches were and how they went, I'll do a tourny report on here for you. Here is my current list, and what I used for the tourny:
4x Vines of Vastwood
3x Apostle's Blessing
3x Mutagenic Growth
2x Groundswell
4x Might of Old Krosa
1x Twisted Image
3x Become Immense
1x Dismember (Never saw play. May try something different, but I like the removal in the main.)
Sorcery/Enchantment: 6
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Wild Defiance (Love this card. So good when you are running low on pump spells, but have protection. Won me a game against a Chalice of the Void. I played a bunch of spells, targeting my guy and instead of Chalice negating them, Wild Defiance made them pump anyways. If this is illegal, please tell me. We had to get the judge to confirm that it was okay, but I am still not sure.
Lands: 19
4x Windsweapt Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Breeding Pool
4x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Pendelhaven
2x Forest
1x Island (Wish it was Fetch number 9. It did absolutely nothing significant. I am investing in a Verdant Catacombs.)
Anyways, please give me some ideas and opinions. I was thinking that if I replaced the Island with an overgrown Tomb, I could either maindeck 1 or 2 Black cards that are good. Or I could side them. Either way, it's an idea. Again, tell me if you want a report. Thanks
Twisted image is a sideboard card. I would bring in an extra groundswell in it's spot. Aside from that everything else seems fine; My infect deck is in my sig for reference
Twisted image is a sideboard card. I would bring in an extra groundswell in it's spot. Aside from that everything else seems fine; My infect deck is in my sig for reference
I like having 1 Twisted Image maindeck: It's removal for a lot of creatures, most important of which is Spellskite. I think this is a bit of a meta call, but Spellskite is problematic enough for Infect that I always want a maindeck answer for it.
Would you rather have a card and not need it, or need a card and not have it? If you have a TI and there's no Spellskite, you can always use it EoT to cycle. If there's a Spellskite and you have no answer... What do you do?
2x Wild Defiance (Love this card. So good when you are running low on pump spells, but have protection. Won me a game against a Chalice of the Void. I played a bunch of spells, targeting my guy and instead of Chalice negating them, Wild Defiance made them pump anyways. If this is illegal, please tell me. We had to get the judge to confirm that it was okay, but I am still not sure.
Assuming that your creature is already on the field, you can target it and still get the trigger. That's how I get around a late chalice.
Twisted image is a sideboard card. I would bring in an extra groundswell in it's spot. Aside from that everything else seems fine; My infect deck is in my sig for reference
I like having 1 Twisted Image maindeck: It's removal for a lot of creatures, most important of which is Spellskite. I think this is a bit of a meta call, but Spellskite is problematic enough for Infect that I always want a maindeck answer for it.
Would you rather have a card and not need it, or need a card and not have it? If you have a TI and there's no Spellskite, you can always use it EoT to cycle. If there's a Spellskite and you have no answer... What do you do?
Fair enough. I would definitely say it's a meta call though. I dont think I would run 1 main if I was going to a grand prix or pro tour.
Check out Martin Juza's 9th place list from GP Singapore. It has more affordable losses snce you have 16 infect dorks so that the Spellskites and Wild Defiance is just in the SB. Access to black also reduces damage from the 4 Dismembers he has in the sideboard. It's still viable; I feel it has a more proactive game plan than UG but w/ a more painful manabase.
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Distortion Strike is a meta call at best. It's good at making Glistener Elf slighty better vs decks. However, neither Tom Ross or Todd Anderson are playing any, and I have to agree that having more cantrips maindeck is better than distortion strike. Both of them have moved at least one Twisted Image main, and their more recent lists (9/18) on Starcity show neither of them playing Mutagenic Growth either.
Edit: For reference Tom Ross - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=92084
Todd Anderson - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90936
Hello all! I am here to introduce a couple new ideas that may or may not work... (They have been working for me though).
The first of these is to change the focus from a combo, spell-based glass-cannon build into a more general aggro, creature-based build. This would involve the introduction of more creatures, like Ichorclaw Myr, to make the general strategy more proactive with more creatures and less reactive with protection spells. This new strategy would make use of the persistance of creatures and spell flexibility with cards like Rancor, and make less use of cantrips and single-shot, single-effect cards like Become Immense.
The second strategy (which is not my original idea) is to capitalize on a backup beatdown strategy exemplified with a few Geist of Saint Traft in the sideboard, in order to punish opponents who either bring in removal against us and/or lower their own life totals quicker than normal by fetching and shocking more liberally in an attempt to match our blistering pace. This straregy allows us to play our Glistener Elfes into their Dismembers, then unleash our six power hexproof beater.
I have devised a (somewhat rogue) build that effectively combines these two new strategies. It also introduces a sideboard and mainboard tempo strategy, to dismantle combo decks by countering their finisher and throw off aggro builds by nullifying their alpha strike. This kind of deck is extremely difficult to face, and has fared very well against T1 decks like Jund 'Em Out and Grixis Control, since it has both a solid G1 and G2 strategy. It is adjusted for a meta heavy in creatures and removal.
3 Breeding Pool
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
2 Forest
1 Island
Crearure (15)
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
3 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Spell Pierce
4 Apostle's Blessing
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Groundswell
2 Mutagenic Growth
Sorcery (6)
3 Distortion Strike
3 Gitaxian Probe
Enchantment (3)
3 Rancor
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Nature's Claim
3 Dawn Charm
3 Vapor Snag
1 Ajani's Presence
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Temple Garden
I encourage you all to playtest this deck and see how it works. I personally have had great amounts of success with it, and fully intend on building it in paper and taking it on some local tournaments.
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I can't get on board with this. The reasons to play Infect are to be explosive and constantly "make them have it". The middling aggro plan is really flat because Infect is not a strong enough mechanic to support what you're attempting. Trying to play like Zoo w/pumps instead of burn opens you up to all their problems while not improving on any of Infect's problems. Especially once you consider that Infect creatures on the whole are pretty crap. Wild Nacatls and Tarmogoyfs they aren't.
This my SB btw:
1x Temple Garden (Piracy Charm in GP Singapore)
3x Path to Exile (Twisted Image in GP Singapore)
2x Dispel
2x Spell Pierce
4x Nature's Claim
1x Wild Defiance (2 maindeck)
2x Spellskite (2 maindeck)
placed the removal package in of PTEs because there aren't a lot of Affinity or mirror matches here; and the deck just sometimes really dies if I can't get rid of certain dorks.
I side out a lot of my protection and i side in my Geist of Saint Traft, Vapor Snag, Dryad Arbor if i smell a Liliana of the Veil, possibly Dawn Charm to fight against untargeted removal and Tarmogoyf swings. Jund is more than happy to shock their lands and Dismember my infect creatures, and i am more than happy to let them. I watch and play the field long enough to where they have lowered their own life quite a bit; then i open a can of Geist of Saint Traft when they are at 12 life.
I include Dawn Charm as insurance against many things. It saves my creatures from mass destruction, saves my face from a Boros Charm or Inquisition of Kozilek, or can embarrass a Splinter Twin player who thinks they just won. It is a bit expensive as far as mana goes, but i like it a lot.
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@KeMT -- Against Jund, i sideboard in Geist of Saint Traft, Vapor Snag to get rid of Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant, maybe Dawn Charm as additional insurance against Tarmogoyf, possibly Dryad Arbor if i smell a Liliana of the Veil, and Temple Garden. I side out much of my protection, my Ichorclaw Myrs Breeding Pool. My plan on G2 is to let them use their shocklands liberally in an attempt to outrace my deck, and not stop them from using their Lightning Bolts and Dismembers on my infect creatures. I then punish them for trying to outrace me by using Vapor Snag against their beaters, Dawn Charm against their alpha strike, and of course Geist of Saint Traft to beat them to death. Basically, i only use infect as a distraction in G2; life loss from Dark Confidant and the beatdown from Geist of Saint Traft seal the win for me.
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
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RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
UG is more consistent and has a much less painful manabase. Splashing black is almost always for an extra infect creature (plague stinger), which has more cons than pros when you can just throw in ichorclaw myr if you want more creatures in UG.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
4 Cathedral of War
2 Pendelhaven
12 Forest
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
1 Spellskite
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Groundswell
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Mutagenic Growth
2 Become Immense
3 Apostle's Blessing
The idea is to explode from gate so hard that the amount of life you pay for phyrexian mana doesn't even matter.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
2nd place without Apostle's Blessing. Interesting.
Looking for a little insight on going up to 3 Breeding Pools from 2 and swapping out the 3rd Forest for it. Sideboarding into at least 2x Spell Pierce/Dispel is a little demanding on blue mana. I was usually taking out Gitaxian Probes, but they're color neutral so relying on 4x Nobles and 2x Breeding Pools feels strained to me. Any input?
This is the current list I have with my sideboard. Any advice would be very much appreciated. Thank you!
4 Cathedral of War
2 Pendelhaven
12 Forest
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Rancor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Groundswell
4 Mutagenic Growth
2 Become Immense
4 Apostle's Blessing
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Nature's Claim
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Dismember
2 Spellskite
2 Wild Defiance
2 Sylvan Scrying
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
On the other hand, my only match loss was to Twin and I went 1-2. The best part was that I won game 1 and I did it by Hierarch Beatdown. It was great.
Anyways, back to Strike. I am thinking about running only 1 in the main. I can't bring myself to run it in the side because it is just kinda dumb in the side. If anyone wants to know what my matches were and how they went, I'll do a tourny report on here for you. Here is my current list, and what I used for the tourny:
Creatures: 14
4x Blighted Agent
4x Glistener Elf
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Spellskite (So worth the money)
Instants: 21
4x Vines of Vastwood
3x Apostle's Blessing
3x Mutagenic Growth
2x Groundswell
4x Might of Old Krosa
1x Twisted Image
3x Become Immense
1x Dismember (Never saw play. May try something different, but I like the removal in the main.)
Sorcery/Enchantment: 6
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Wild Defiance (Love this card. So good when you are running low on pump spells, but have protection. Won me a game against a Chalice of the Void. I played a bunch of spells, targeting my guy and instead of Chalice negating them, Wild Defiance made them pump anyways. If this is illegal, please tell me. We had to get the judge to confirm that it was okay, but I am still not sure.
Lands: 19
4x Windsweapt Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Breeding Pool
4x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Pendelhaven
2x Forest
1x Island (Wish it was Fetch number 9. It did absolutely nothing significant. I am investing in a Verdant Catacombs.)
Anyways, please give me some ideas and opinions. I was thinking that if I replaced the Island with an overgrown Tomb, I could either maindeck 1 or 2 Black cards that are good. Or I could side them. Either way, it's an idea. Again, tell me if you want a report. Thanks
BRG Living End
G Elves
UB Zombie Hunt
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
I like having 1 Twisted Image maindeck: It's removal for a lot of creatures, most important of which is Spellskite. I think this is a bit of a meta call, but Spellskite is problematic enough for Infect that I always want a maindeck answer for it.
Would you rather have a card and not need it, or need a card and not have it? If you have a TI and there's no Spellskite, you can always use it EoT to cycle. If there's a Spellskite and you have no answer... What do you do?
Assuming that your creature is already on the field, you can target it and still get the trigger. That's how I get around a late chalice.
Fair enough. I would definitely say it's a meta call though. I dont think I would run 1 main if I was going to a grand prix or pro tour.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company