Couple questions in light of some of the newer lists that are popping up:
How are people feeling about lists running no Wild Defiance whatsoever?
How has it been running fewer Mutagenic Growth? It used to be an auto 4-of, now I see lists running it only as a 1-of. At that point is it even worth putting in the list? I almost feel like you have to commit to playing it as a 3 to 4-of or not at all.
Does the increase in Groundswell play necessitate playing a 20th (or 21st, if you include Dryad Arbor) land?
Right now I am debating between having a 1/1 split of Spell Pierce and Dismember mainboard instead of 2 Wild Defiance. Does anyone have experience playing a singleton Spell Pierce and Dismember mainboard, and if so how effective is it?
With the success of Grixis and Jund and with Burn still being very relevant in the metagame, I've decided to put 2x Monastery Siege in my SB. It seems very promising against direct removal (Terminate, Abrupt Decay) as well as targeted discard (Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek). I've also playtested it against Burn and when it hits the board basically becomes an auto-win. Anyone else been playtesting Monastery Siege?
Yes you are correct in your scenario (and most scenarios).
The only situation where you can't tap inkmoth nexus for mana is if you're animating a freshly played inkmoth nexus (to block for example) and your opponent lets the ability resolve and then taps it down with a deceiver exarch. You cannot then tap it for mana because it is now a creature with summoning sickness.
Couple questions in light of some of the newer lists that are popping up:
How are people feeling about lists running no Wild Defiance whatsoever?
How has it been running fewer Mutagenic Growth? It used to be an auto 4-of, now I see lists running it only as a 1-of. At that point is it even worth putting in the list? I almost feel like you have to commit to playing it as a 3 to 4-of or not at all.
Does the increase in Groundswell play necessitate playing a 20th (or 21st, if you include Dryad Arbor) land?
Right now I am debating between having a 1/1 split of Spell Pierce and Dismember mainboard instead of 2 Wild Defiance. Does anyone have experience playing a singleton Spell Pierce and Dismember mainboard, and if so how effective is it?
With the success of Grixis and Jund and with Burn still being very relevant in the metagame, I've decided to put 2x Monastery Siege in my SB. It seems very promising against direct removal (Terminate, Abrupt Decay) as well as targeted discard (Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek). I've also playtested it against Burn and when it hits the board basically becomes an auto-win. Anyone else been playtesting Monastery Siege?
I'm considering pulling the Wild Defiance. It's really strong but I'm starting to feel like it's a little too slow specifically because it rarely affects your board state the turn you cast it. Best turn 3 scenario, you cast and they don't bolt/path/terminate, swing and then pump with Mutagenic.
I like Mutagenic Growth because it allows you to go from 9 poison to 11 poison on no mana. Double Might/Groundswell doesn't get you there without a Noble or Pendelhaven, but you can't do that on turn 2 anyways. Also, Mutagenic Growth is a hedge against Pyroclasm. I've been running into a lot (an abormal amount) of Tron both IRL and on MTGO, so if you bait out their Pyro you can usually blow them out. Generally, if they know you have it, they will attempt to play around it (at least that's what I'm hoping for). Mutagenic Growth is just too good for catching people off guard, but you have to weigh it against the life loss effects in your meta.
I keep a Dryad Arbor in the sideboard because it's not something you ever want to draw into when you're gunning for a win. I've run 19 lands with little issue w/3x Groundswell. I use 4x Mutagenic, 4x Might, 3x Groundswell, 3x Become Immense. I think 3x Might, 4x Groundswell is better because Might can never pump out of a bolt outside of your main phase. Still too close to call it either way.
I was running 1x Spell Pierce for a while, cut it and a Sleight Of Hand for 2x Serum Visions and I'm much happier with it now. I had a Dismember in my sideboard for a while, I've boarded it in once out of countless games for that one match where I saw a Melira. It's a meta call.
Monastery Siege looks too slow on paper but I've never tested it.
The core of the deck is more or less Mono Green, the only blue is for Blighted Agent. You'll most likely have that 1 blue source, but you usually don't have the right mana to protect an Agent with a counterspell the turn after you cast it.
Infect doesn't have the same inevitability as other decks. The longer the games go, the more likely it is that you'll lose. Tom Ross's list looks like it hedges slightly against mid games with a little extra protection/utility with the extra Apostle's Blessing and the Piracy Charm in place of the Wild Defiance. Both of those cards also count as evasion.
I'm shifting decks for a while, but if I was going to play infect, I think I'd run something like this:
Do you think infect is a good deck for an fnm with
2-3 burn
1 living end
1-2 merfolk
1 restore balance
2-3 twin
1-2 junk
1 junk gift
2-3 grixis delver
1 tron
thanks
Similar to my meta here. Infect is fine in it, depending on how prepared you are....
So where does everyone stand with Wild Defiance? I played the Todd Anderson list last night and went 3-1 first time playing the deck. Forgot to mention, my meta has about 3-4 Naya Burn players in it (about 14 players total).
I still keep a couple wild defiance in my SB just because they are so good against burn, but with so much removal not being damage based I don't like it main any longer...if you run 4 mutagenic growth however the synergy with WD is really nice. Speaking of Anderson's list, did you like serum visions? I've been liking them in testing but can't decide what to take out for them...looks like MooK is what he opted to remove.
Building this deck right now cause it looks fun and I have played everything else except tron and merfolk.
Is wild defiance really that good for a speed deck? At best turn 2 looks crappy. I have played against infect before and generally win every time if it goes long game. Not putting it in my deck as it is slow. The winning Cinn. deck looks way better than anything I have seen before.
I still keep a couple wild defiance in my SB just because they are so good against burn, but with so much removal not being damage based I don't like it main any longer...if you run 4 mutagenic growth however the synergy with WD is really nice. Speaking of Anderson's list, did you like serum visions? I've been liking them in testing but can't decide what to take out for them...looks like MooK is what he opted to remove.
With the prevalence of Burn in my meta I think I'll try one in the main and possibly two in the side. I really like Serum Visions because we often just need one more card to set up a win. I believe my list cuts Mutagenic Growth for them? I'm only running 1. I'm also only running 2 Might. Two Spellskite main may be a bit excessive but seemed ok.
Does it matter if I use verdant catacombs instead of windswept Heath?
Nope, since your fetching for a green source or G/x shock and the GU or BUG version don't run any other basics than forest, your fine on Windswept Heaths
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard : What is Stand-tart
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
there was three rounds so we each got a bye and versed each other. I versed a goyf-less Abzan list and won 2-1, nothing interesting really and then I versed Jund and lost 1-2, this is where the interesting decision that lost me the match came in. It was game 3 I knew two of the 4 cards in his hand, I had an apostle's Blessing and a become immense in hand, and just enough mana and cards in the graveyard to become immmense for the win, was the correct response to apostle's blessing, calling red, expecting a bolt/terminate in response, hope for a bolt or nothing then become immense if there are only two cards that i don't know in his hand?
Yes you are correct in your scenario (and most scenarios).
The only situation where you can't tap inkmoth nexus for mana is if you're animating a freshly played inkmoth nexus (to block for example) and your opponent lets the ability resolve and then taps it down with a deceiver exarch. You cannot then tap it for mana because it is now a creature with summoning sickness.
Awesome, that's what I thought. Thanks for confirming!
Also is there a place to see GP results as they happen? I'm interested in following the Infect decks to see how they do and perhaps even watch them live/recorded. I haven't done so before and don't know the best way to do this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
there was three rounds so we each got a bye and versed each other. I versed a goyf-less Abzan list and won 2-1, nothing interesting really and then I versed Jund and lost 1-2, this is where the interesting decision that lost me the match came in. It was game 3 I knew two of the 4 cards in his hand, I had an apostle's Blessing and a become immense in hand, and just enough mana and cards in the graveyard to become immmense for the win, was the correct response to apostle's blessing, calling red, expecting a bolt/terminate in response, hope for a bolt or nothing then become immense if there are only two cards that i don't know in his hand?
If you cast Become Immense first, you forced his hand to show you if he had any removal at all and if he had he'd cast it, that way you'd be able to use Apostle's Blessing for a color of that removal spell and have it resolve before the removal spell.
I totally agree, thr Blessing is totally a defensive card. But well, we learn of our mistaked. I love infect and have learned the hard way how to dodge some of these.
Against Burn, how do you feel about Feed the Clan as a sideboard card?
I realise this, I must of phrased my question wrong then. In the scenario I had only 2 mana up and 4 cards in the graveyard, therefore if I was to play Become immense I would be tapped out. However if I play apostle's blessing for 1, upon casting it I also add one more card to my graveyard so I will have 1 mana open and 5 cards in the graveyard, so I can cast both in that scenario. Either way upon checking the rules I've come to the conclusion that my purposed game plan would not of worked. As if I were to cast apostle's blessing, it wouldn't enter the graveyard until the stack had ended, therefore I would not have it in the graveyard to delve for Become Immense. So the scenario is this, if you see your that you can tap out to kill your opponent with Inkmoth Nexus and Become Immense, and you know your opponent has a Tarmogoyf and a Verdant Catacombs in hand, but not the other two cards, with a Dark Confidant in play, do you go for the win knowing that if the game streches for a turn or two longer you're likely to lose.
So the scenario is this, if you see your that you can tap out to kill your opponent with Inkmoth Nexus and Become Immense, and you know your opponent has a Tarmogoyf and a Verdant Catacombs in hand, but not the other two cards, with a Dark Confidant in play, do you go for the win knowing that if the game streches for a turn or two longer you're likely to lose.
I think there's no correct answer until you know what are the two other cards in your opponent's hand, another play would be casting Apostle's Blessing main phase naming black for Abrupt Decay or Terminate and then decide after his response, but once again since you don't know what he have in hand, you want to keep Blessing as a defensive card.
vs Jund I tend to go all in more than with other matchups, they want to trade their cards with ours, and we can't afford that card disadvantage, going all-in for the win will depend if you're a plunger or not
If you have a nexus in play a pump and a protection spell in hand, you can wait a turn , if you draw anything but a creature you would be able to go for a less risky win.
That was my train of thought, but then he was able to get a Night of the Soul's betray which lead to game. I think you're right though, and just passing the turn was the correct response, because more often than not that will lead to a safe win the following turn, just in this scenario he has an "I win card" which killed me.
Has anyone tried Spirit en-Dal in place of Apostle's Blessing?. If the end game is getting through quickly, this might be viable? If not replace, in addition to?
The problem with the spirit en-dal is that it actually requires you white mana. The Blessing is used usually with 1 and 2 life for flexibility, for the only white source we have is the hierarch. Also, the blessing save lifes, it is usually not used as a evasive card, except you're paying against elfs, and even they have Beast Within. I usually run 2 wild defiances in the main deck and when I'm able to play them against burn in tourn 2-3 they usually give the game but sometimes we don't hit the 3rd mana.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dredge still good enough. Good enough.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
How are people feeling about lists running no Wild Defiance whatsoever?
How has it been running fewer Mutagenic Growth? It used to be an auto 4-of, now I see lists running it only as a 1-of. At that point is it even worth putting in the list? I almost feel like you have to commit to playing it as a 3 to 4-of or not at all.
Does the increase in Groundswell play necessitate playing a 20th (or 21st, if you include Dryad Arbor) land?
Right now I am debating between having a 1/1 split of Spell Pierce and Dismember mainboard instead of 2 Wild Defiance. Does anyone have experience playing a singleton Spell Pierce and Dismember mainboard, and if so how effective is it?
With the success of Grixis and Jund and with Burn still being very relevant in the metagame, I've decided to put 2x Monastery Siege in my SB. It seems very promising against direct removal (Terminate, Abrupt Decay) as well as targeted discard (Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek). I've also playtested it against Burn and when it hits the board basically becomes an auto-win. Anyone else been playtesting Monastery Siege?
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
The only situation where you can't tap inkmoth nexus for mana is if you're animating a freshly played inkmoth nexus (to block for example) and your opponent lets the ability resolve and then taps it down with a deceiver exarch. You cannot then tap it for mana because it is now a creature with summoning sickness.
I'm considering pulling the Wild Defiance. It's really strong but I'm starting to feel like it's a little too slow specifically because it rarely affects your board state the turn you cast it. Best turn 3 scenario, you cast and they don't bolt/path/terminate, swing and then pump with Mutagenic.
I like Mutagenic Growth because it allows you to go from 9 poison to 11 poison on no mana. Double Might/Groundswell doesn't get you there without a Noble or Pendelhaven, but you can't do that on turn 2 anyways. Also, Mutagenic Growth is a hedge against Pyroclasm. I've been running into a lot (an abormal amount) of Tron both IRL and on MTGO, so if you bait out their Pyro you can usually blow them out. Generally, if they know you have it, they will attempt to play around it (at least that's what I'm hoping for). Mutagenic Growth is just too good for catching people off guard, but you have to weigh it against the life loss effects in your meta.
I keep a Dryad Arbor in the sideboard because it's not something you ever want to draw into when you're gunning for a win. I've run 19 lands with little issue w/3x Groundswell. I use 4x Mutagenic, 4x Might, 3x Groundswell, 3x Become Immense. I think 3x Might, 4x Groundswell is better because Might can never pump out of a bolt outside of your main phase. Still too close to call it either way.
I was running 1x Spell Pierce for a while, cut it and a Sleight Of Hand for 2x Serum Visions and I'm much happier with it now. I had a Dismember in my sideboard for a while, I've boarded it in once out of countless games for that one match where I saw a Melira. It's a meta call.
Monastery Siege looks too slow on paper but I've never tested it.
The core of the deck is more or less Mono Green, the only blue is for Blighted Agent. You'll most likely have that 1 blue source, but you usually don't have the right mana to protect an Agent with a counterspell the turn after you cast it.
Infect doesn't have the same inevitability as other decks. The longer the games go, the more likely it is that you'll lose. Tom Ross's list looks like it hedges slightly against mid games with a little extra protection/utility with the extra Apostle's Blessing and the Piracy Charm in place of the Wild Defiance. Both of those cards also count as evasion.
I'm shifting decks for a while, but if I was going to play infect, I think I'd run something like this:
4 Blighted Agent
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Spellskite
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Groundswell
3 Might of Old Krosa
3 Become Immense
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Apostle's Blessing
2 Piracy Charm
2 Serum Visions
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Forest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Pendelhaven
4 Nature's Claim
3 Twisted Image
2 Wild Defiance
2 Dispel
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spellskite
1 Dryad Arbor
Similar to my meta here. Infect is fine in it, depending on how prepared you are....
Is wild defiance really that good for a speed deck? At best turn 2 looks crappy. I have played against infect before and generally win every time if it goes long game. Not putting it in my deck as it is slow. The winning Cinn. deck looks way better than anything I have seen before.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
With the prevalence of Burn in my meta I think I'll try one in the main and possibly two in the side. I really like Serum Visions because we often just need one more card to set up a win. I believe my list cuts Mutagenic Growth for them? I'm only running 1. I'm also only running 2 Might. Two Spellskite main may be a bit excessive but seemed ok.
Nope, since your fetching for a green source or G/x shock and the GU or BUG version don't run any other basics than forest, your fine on Windswept Heaths
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
3 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Spellskite
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Become Immense
4 Groundswell
3 Apostle's Blessing
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Serum Visions
1 Sylvan Scrying
3 Nature's Claim
1 Spellskite
3 Dismember
3 Dispel
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Viridian Corrupter
2 Twisted Image
there was three rounds so we each got a bye and versed each other. I versed a goyf-less Abzan list and won 2-1, nothing interesting really and then I versed Jund and lost 1-2, this is where the interesting decision that lost me the match came in. It was game 3 I knew two of the 4 cards in his hand, I had an apostle's Blessing and a become immense in hand, and just enough mana and cards in the graveyard to become immmense for the win, was the correct response to apostle's blessing, calling red, expecting a bolt/terminate in response, hope for a bolt or nothing then become immense if there are only two cards that i don't know in his hand?
Awesome, that's what I thought. Thanks for confirming!
Also is there a place to see GP results as they happen? I'm interested in following the Infect decks to see how they do and perhaps even watch them live/recorded. I haven't done so before and don't know the best way to do this.
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
I totally agree, thr Blessing is totally a defensive card. But well, we learn of our mistaked. I love infect and have learned the hard way how to dodge some of these.
Against Burn, how do you feel about Feed the Clan as a sideboard card?
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
My meta is so thick with Burn and B/G/x I'm putting a Leyline in the side and trying out Wild Defiances.
That was my train of thought, but then he was able to get a Night of the Soul's betray which lead to game. I think you're right though, and just passing the turn was the correct response, because more often than not that will lead to a safe win the following turn, just in this scenario he has an "I win card" which killed me.