Every time I played against a jeskai control deck, Wild Defiance made the game, once the spell targets they can't prevent the pump this card is a real pain for them, I'm considering adding one or two Simic Charm to get around the bouncing effect of Cryptic Command and Tech Edge.
They could technically just counter it, it is Remand fodder and you will rarely have 4 mana up when you cast wild defiance to defend it with a counter, but once in play I guess it can be good.
Thrun, the Last Troll in my opinion is way too expensive, reaching 4 mana may be ok, but you won't be able to regenerate it the same turn it arrives and still die to Supreme Verdict , if I had to play a 4 mana-can't be countered spell I would prefer Stonewood Invocation plus with Sphinx's Revelation going for life point's instead of poison may not be a real good idea
ForStonewood Invocation you'd need to have a creature stick around long enough,which vs jeskai control is hard especially mid game, they always have mana up and can either counter or remove it, or take care of it their turn. We just run 12 infect creatures and quickly run out. At least from my experience. I believe jeskai control decks just run 1 or 2 supreme verdicts, they can get to them with their cantrips but if you'd include 3/4 Thrun, the Last Troll instead of Invisible Stalker/Geist of Saint Traft you can easily draw it first or have multiples. Is it really that much slower than Stalker? It's a 1/1 and if you don't pump, which can get countered, it takes longer to kill than with a t4 Thrun. I get that it's very slow but it's for slower matchups, I've tried running Invisible Stalker but find it lacking in power, they can easily just manage around him by either counter him right away or just prevent the limited strong pumps you throw at him.
The times i've played Jeskai they actually sideboard sphynx out, one of them told me they believe it's too slow vs infect which is often true, it's only relevant at 6/7 mana, and even then they just gain 4 life, not that much .If they're on 7 lands , Thrun should be bashing in for 4 for a few turns already. The card advantage is more annoying but that's always hard to deal for infect whilst they have very few cards vs Thrun.
Wait until you have two mana ? one for the activation and the other one for the protection ? If it's your only creature you can bait them with playing the fourth land then pretend to read the Tech edge, it worked for me once
Too bad only vines and Ranger's Guile can protect Nexus that's why I think of the possibility of the Simic Charm but it would cost 4 to activate then protect then attack for only 1
How so 2 mana? If you have an inkmoth and 2 lands then you can't put in any other land. If you start slowly swinging for 1 while always keeping up protection then they can just build up and after 1,2 or 3 more turns it's gonna be really hard for you. Snapcaster + bolt and a path, etc, plus They can easily have 2 cheap disruption spells. This is in the case they got a Tectonic obviously. I love simic charm and have wanted to try it out but like you said it's sometimes hard to pay the 2cc.
Today I'm going to try Life's Legacy , if I can't go for the win or if a game go long (control matchups) I can pump then sac a Dryad Arbor or a Noble Hierarch for card advantage , I'm not sure it's a good idea since the slow route is almost impossible to win against counterspells but I'll give it a try. What do you guys think of it ?
I'm not sure it'll be very effective or worth it, you lose 3 cards (pump/creature/Life's Legacy) and usually draw 5, let us know how it works out though
Blue decks can't really afford to keep in their remands against infect, they're garbage against everything not BI. It's not a card you should worry about too much. Jeskai usually doesn't run wrath main and likely only has wrath+anger postboard (some run anger main, depends on the meta).
Blue decks can't really afford to keep in their remands against infect, they're garbage against everything not BI. It's not a card you should worry about too much. Jeskai usually doesn't run wrath main and likely only has wrath+anger postboard (some run anger main, depends on the meta).
They're good vs Wild Defiance and a turn 2 remand on a 2cc card of yours can be annoying, but I agree it's not good,I used the remand example since that's the worst case scenario in that situation, any counter will do just fine vs wild defiance. Even if they don't run it MB they have an incredibly low mana curve with their disruption spells, it drives me insane since all they have to do is sit there waiting to respond and never give you an opening.
I just realized that I almost never board out my Wild Defiances. Since I'm playing the BUG Infect, w/c has 16 infect dorks, is it a wise decision to board out the WildDef/Dryad Arbor package against decks that don't have burn-based removal? I figured they'd me more of a liability since they're dead cards if you're not holding your pump spells.
I found that with the extra creatures in bug you don't need WD main; for the ug versions it serves as a hedge against mulligans (ie fetching up dryad arbor). I've just recently switched to bug and have really enjoyed having the extra infect bros, but found myself needing to draw into more pump/cheap protection. This is what I've been running:
No probes and 1 pool is a little strange to some, but land destruction usually targets my inkmoths and my meta is very aggressive; probes cost me so many games! Gemstone mine is actually really amazing, saving me from taking 2-6 points of damage (when you normally would have to fetch untapped shocks for black and blue in consecutive turns)
i like your deck, looks similar too mine (i play a 1/1 split of path and spell pierce main)
aint got much time so just some thoughts:
- 4 Wild Defiance in the 75 do not sound like what i want right now. when do you like having all 4 when it is only good vs bolts but sucks against path, terminate, command etc..
- if playing bant and three drops, i prefer 20 real lands Maindeck (arbor excluded)
- i prefer SB Geist over Stalker a lot. we got enough pumps to make geist never die during attacks and i often board it in in matchups like twin, scapeshift, grixis control, grixis delver and even vs burn that play not too much creatures anyway that might potentially block geist.
Although I'm not playing wild defiance anymore, the following interaction has happened before with wild defiance in play:
Path my own blighted agent holding priority, apostle's blessing the blighted agent giving it protection from white. Still get two +3/+3 triggers, path gets countered, and attack for lethal.
Hey everyone! I have a question for this forum. I started playing Modern with Mono-Green Infect last year and then moved to U/R Treasure Delver till it was banned.
Here's my question. How do you think Infect stands in the current meta? Also, with this current meta, what do I need to watch out for? I have a mixture of all Tier 1 decks and a good majority of Tier 2 decks in my meta.
Anyway, I have chance to pick up a playset Noble Hierarch's this week and complete U/G Infect and just had these questions. Thanks!
So after I had trouble with a burn deck a few weeks ago, I wanted to play a bunch more matches with it just to see how it goes and maybe try and come up with a good sideboard strategy against it. So I proxied a Naya Burn deck and played like 12-13 games against it with my infect yesterday with a friend. Basically, I won 1 game. Just ONE game!! I'm wondering what I can do better against this deck? I played the first 3 games with no sideboarding just to see how that went, and then sideboarded for the rest of the 10 or so games. Here is what my deck looked like after sideboarding:
So what I noticed against Naya Burn was that Eidolon of the Great Revel is the card that almost always screwed me. There were times where I'd have all my cards to win in hand, but couldn't cast them because of the Eidolon as I would have to kill myself to cast the game winning cards. Even after bringing in 3 Nature's Claim, I was not able to do too much against Eidolon because either I didn't draw it in time, or didn't draw it at all. The counters were useful here and there, but not enough to help me win. And when he managed to get TWO Eidolons out on the field, forget about it!
Become Immense has also not been very useful for me unfortunately. Especially if I drew into it early on, it would just sit in my hand and I'd be unable to cast it. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't how how people are playing this as a 4 of in the maindeck. Also maybe Monastery Siege is something I should consider instead of Wild Defiance? But I feel like unless it is a 4 of, I'm not going to see it very often and it won't change things enough due to this.
My strategy going against this deck was to just play it slow and only drop an infect creature when I had protection for it and enough juice to win the game on the next turn. But this would generally end up not being quick enough. Should I be trying another strategy?
Also I know I currently only have 2 Noble Hierarch, but I'll eventually have the playset. Not sure what I'd remove to put these two in though. I'm just kind of stumped when it comes to beating this burn deck. Does anyone else have a good/decent record against it? Any ideas or advice would be appreciated!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
I think the full playset of In general, if you have a really slow Hand (like Blighted Agent plus pump/protection, just mulligan. You won't win the game by waiting until T3 to drop your first creature with protection, because your mana base is hurting a bit as well and you will already be at ~14 life or maybe facing an Eidolon.
I feel like I'd be doing a very risky thing mulliganing a hand with an Agent + pump/protection though? With such a low infect creature count, my next hand could be a giant dud, and I'd be a card behind. Plus if I drop a Glistener Elf turn 1 and have no protection, it's almost definitely going to be burned in the next turn or two I'd imagine. On top of this, the opponent has 8 1 drop creatures that can come down and chump the elf immediately.
If crazy speed is something I need against burn, maybe I need to drop all the counters and add more creatures in there. Maybe with more Rancors so I can get past blockers with whatever creature I have out.
What do you think your percentage of wins is against burn and do you happen to know around how many rounds you have played against it?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
Grixis Delver is beating me like 70-30 I would say.
For the Grixis matchups in general: Note that Kolaghan's Command can be redirected to Spellskite if they choose to Shock target other creature PLUS destroying an artifact (Spellskite most likely)
I also prefer to play grixis control/twin over delver, the early 3/2 flyings are annoying and the former are both a bit clunkier, you can either outpace them or take it slow by slowly attacking for 1 and then overwhelm their mana t4/5 by using more pumps/protection they can respond to, the line of play depend on both your and your opponents hand though, if you can probe him it'll help alot as well.
How is the MB twisted image holding up for you Manaflips ? I have considered including one MB since it can be such a good card, but haven't come around to trying it.
@Scharfestahl
Burn is always a close and hard matchup for us,you have to pay attention to the details, especially how you use your life, even using your fetches poorly (take 3 instead of 1 when not needed) can influence the outcome of the game. What's your entire SB/MB? The 2 additional noble hierarchs would actually help you out, it gives your opponent another target to kill, accelerates your game (t2 wild defiance is very scary for them) and you can even block if needed.
What makes this matchup so hard are their creatures, if they have a creature light hand we can often deal with it, Spellskites are very good here, allowing you to block and pull,the old block and then claim your own spellskite trick is very good here, you got to play smart though, never give him up too early, once they have few cards in hand and you have a spellskite in play it is going to be hard for them, especially with natures claim or counter backup. If you have multiple creatures in hand just play them out and hope he uses up his burn on them instead of your lifepoints. So I'd say a 3rd Spellskite would benefit you, instead of, for example, your 4th apostle's blessing.
Looking at your current list I'd say you have a worse than usual matchup against burn since you run 4 apostle's blessing and 4 mutagenic growth. I personally take out both my mutagenics when I play burn and leave 2 apostle's for lack of better options.
If they happen to play an eidolon t2 you better pray on having a response for it or next turn kill in hand (since he'll be tapped out mana wise) or else it'll be hard, you often have to hope for a topdeck solution but even then it's sometimes too late.
This matchup is almost always a race so I take out the 1/2 wild defiances if on the draw. I don't know your SB but if you run path to exile instead of dismember it is also a viable option helping you out vs all the creatures. Then include your counters/claims as you have been doing and that's how good it can get vs burn except if you have something specific like Feed the Clan/Dragon's Claw in your SB.
This is yet another matchup in which I personally prefer more Groundswell/MOOK over Mutagenics. It is the same vs any disruption/removal heavy deck. I always find myself thinking of it this way, if my opponent has let's say 1 counter mana up, what do I prefer to have in hand,a combination of mutagenic/become immense/mook or instead just +4+4 spells? And the answer is almost always +4+4. Even if they counter one, you still deal 5 instead of 3 from a mutagenic which is the least probable target of the counter obviously. If you used s mutagenic, you just lost 2 valuable cards in hand and are not even halfway, another mutagenic will not take you very far either, whilst a second groundswell/mook could go in for the kill next turn. We already have no way to get card advantage, so imo +2+2 often doesn't justify a card slot, especially vs decks running counters which are never an easy matchup for us.
Now don't get me wrong, 0cc mutagenics are very good in certain situations. I'd say it helps us most vs G/R Tron evading the Pyroclasms, and vs disruption/counter light decks in which you can just chain the mutagenics/probes into a become immense with no response, but those matchups are already the easier ones for us. It also "helps" you vs kolaghan's command/electrolyze, but you'll still be 2 for 1'd and vs those kinds of decks you should rarely tap all of your mana so a groundswell/mook can to the same job as mutagenic if you play carefully and just don't tap out mana wise.
If crazy speed is something I need against burn, maybe I need to drop all the counters and add more creatures in there. Maybe with more Rancors so I can get past blockers with whatever creature I have out.
Counters are always useful vs burn imo, either preventing damage or saving one of your creatures. If you have another protection in hand for your creature you should keep the counter for the nastier cards like Searing Blaze/Atarka's Command/Boros Charm.
More creatures do help since you can throw them away as bait wasting your opponents spells, so adding the 2 hierarchs and another spellskite is a good start. You can add another infect creature in ichorclaw myr as a 1 of for example, having a 13th infect creature can help out and it doesn't restringe your mana at all (also helps mulliganing less obviously).
Rancor isn't that great vs burn imo since they most probably will be attacking you with all their creatures anyways, and it gives them an opportunity to 2 for 1 you by going after your creature while the rancor is on the stack.
@Scharfestahl
Burn is always a close and hard matchup for us,you have to pay attention to the details, especially how you use your life, even using your fetches poorly (take 3 instead of 1 when not needed) can influence the outcome of the game. What's your entire SB/MB? The 2 additional noble hierarchs would actually help you out, it gives your opponent another target to kill, accelerates your game (t2 wild defiance is very scary for them) and you can even block if needed.
What makes this matchup so hard are their creatures, if they have a creature light hand we can often deal with it, Spellskites are very good here, allowing you to block and pull,the old block and then claim your own spellskite trick is very good here, you got to play smart though, never give him up too early, once they have few cards in hand and you have a spellskite in play it is going to be hard for them, especially with natures claim or counter backup. If you have multiple creatures in hand just play them out and hope he uses up his burn on them instead of your lifepoints. So I'd say a 3rd Spellskite would benefit you, instead of, for example, your 4th apostle's blessing.
Looking at your current list I'd say you have a worse than usual matchup against burn since you run 4 apostle's blessing and 4 mutagenic growth. I personally take out both my mutagenics when I play burn and leave 2 apostle's for lack of better options.
This matchup is almost always a race so I take out the 1/2 wild defiances if on the draw. I don't know your SB but if you run path to exile instead of dismember it is also a viable option helping you out vs all the creatures. Then include your counters/claims as you have been doing and that's how good it can get vs burn except if you have something specific like Feed the Clan/Dragon's Claw in your SB.
Thanks for all the tips! Bouncing my own kite after a block is a cool idea. I always thought Apostle's Blessing was a very important card to have because it allows me to attack through blockers even with an elf while also protecting it from bolts etc. Is there a reason as to why Apostle's blessing isn't good here? Is it due to the need to shock myself to cast it? Same with Mutagenic Growth?
I generally try to fetch for basics after I have one Breeding Pool to conserve life. And even when I fetch for the Breeding Pool on turn 1, I'll generally bring it in tapped unless I have an elf that I plan to play. But again dropping an elf turn 1 is probably asking for it to be bolted immediately which is why I tried to avoid it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
Thanks for all the tips! Bouncing my own kite after a block is a cool idea. I always thought Apostle's Blessing was a very important card to have because it allows me to attack through blockers even with an elf while also protecting it from bolts etc. Is there a reason as to why Apostle's blessing isn't good here? Is it due to the need to shock myself to cast it? Same with Mutagenic Growth?
I generally try to fetch for basics after I have one Breeding Pool to conserve life. And even when I fetch for the Breeding Pool on turn 1, I'll generally bring it in tapped unless I have an elf that I plan to play. But again dropping an elf turn 1 is probably asking for it to be bolted immediately which is why I tried to avoid it.
It's mainly because of the shock yourself, but it is still good for the reasons you mentioned even though they often will not have a creature to block. It is useful to have 1 apostle's blessing in hand, a second one is almost always worse than let's say, having a counter/vines in hand. Your only cards which you should have as a 4 of in your deck are either crucial pieces of your strategy or cards you don't mind having twice in your starting hand. In this particular matchup having 2 apostle's blessing can take a sometimes relevant toll on your life points.
And I didn't mean bounce your Spellskite, i meant destroy it with a nature's claim after blocking and after your opponent casts a bolt to kill the skite, basically saving you 1-3 dmg from the block, you gaining +4 from the nature's claim, and he wastes a bolt (best case scenario). But I guess using the unsummon in the same situation can be very good as well, even letting you keep the skite ^^. Unsummon is not that good in this matchup though.
Yes, if you only have a glistener elf in your hand and nothing else try to avoid dropping it on t1, if you have a second creature then play the glistener elf to see if your opponent kills it or leaves it be (which happens more often than expected, depends on their hand). They also don't have THAT many cards which target creatures, one of them being rift bolt, so it occasionally happens where they have creatures/things like lava spike and atarkas command in hand, or just a single spell which target creatures, and they feel hesitant about using it(more so if you have mana up).
It's mainly because of the shock yourself, but it is still good for the reasons you mentioned even though they often will not have a creature to block. It is useful to have 1 apostle's blessing in hand, a second one is almost always worse than let's say, having a counter/vines in hand. Your only cards which you should have as a 4 of in your deck are either crucial pieces of your strategy or cards you don't mind having twice in your starting hand. In this particular matchup having 2 apostle's blessing can take a sometimes relevant toll on your life points.
And I didn't mean bounce your Spellskite but destroy it with a nature's claim after blocking and your opponent casting a bolt to kill the skite, basically saving you 1-3 dmg from the block, +4 from the nature's claim, and he wastes a bolt (best case scenario). But i guess using the unsummon in the same situation can be very good as well, letting you keep the skite ^^.
Yes, if you only have a glistener elf in your hand and nothing else try to avoid dropping it on t1, if you have a second creature then play the glistener elf to see if your opponent kills it or leaves it be (which happens more often than expected, depends on their hand). They also don't have THAT many cards which target creatures, one of them being rift bolt, so it occasionally happens where they have creatures/things like lava spike and atarkas command in hand, or just a single spell which target creatures, and they feel hesitant about using it(more so if you have mana up).
Haha I don't know why I was thinking of Unsummon when you mentioned Nature's Claim. But yeah both those options would be useful!
Also I guess I need to get out of the mindset that Apostle's Blessing is one of the most important cards to have. I've never had less than 4 of these in my iterations of this deck simply because I've felt like it was my one sure way of being able to attack using any creature that was on my battlefield no matter what the opponent controls (for the most part). This was from back when I was playing mono-green infect and had barely any evasion. At that point Blesssing was definitely a crucial part of my strategy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
Haha I don't know why I was thinking of Unsummon when you mentioned Nature's Claim. But yeah both those options would be useful!
Also I guess I need to get out of the mindset that Apostle's Blessing is one of the most important cards to have. I've never had less than 4 of these in my iterations of this deck simply because I've felt like it was my one sure way of being able to attack using any creature that was on my battlefield no matter what the opponent controls (for the most part). This was from back when I was playing mono-green infect and had barely any evasion. At that point Blesssing was definitely a crucial part of my strategy.
I prefer 3, I absolutely love the card for being able to protect and give evasion but against creature light decks, which are fairly common, you don't need evasion so having 4 apostle's/4 blighted agent and 2 rancor is overkill. Evasion is not your first priority. And if you happen to have too much protection not named vines of vastwood in your hand, you will probably be lacking pumps. I hope we get something similar to vines of vastwood in the future, pumping and protecting is just so good ^-^.
I can see as to why you'd need more evasion in mono green, but in u/g I think having 4 blighted/4 inkmoth/3 apostle's blessing suffices vs most matchups. If you run rancors then it's even easier.
Edit: that said, your deck can often depend on your metagame, if you play alot of mono colored creature heavy decks then 4 apostle's blessing is definitely the way to go.
You are also running 2 distortion strike sideboard, i think you should either drop them or replace rancor with them maindeck(they do have better synergy with wild defiance) so you would have 2 SB slots freed. If you want to keep 3 then you can split them 1Mb /2SB or 2/1
I for example am being constantly harassed in my FNM's by grindy Jeskai Control/ W/R/x decks with both path and bolt, so I will be trying out 3 Thrun, the Last Troll SB to show them ^^.
I was just reading through the last posts, and might I ask why you take the gitaxian probe's out here? Imo gitaxian probe is very important vs decks which only run few cheap removal spells and more counters/things like kolaghans command/electrolyze. These matchups tempt you to go all in early hoping that he does not have more than 1 cheap response in hand (ex:lightning bolt) but if you run into a bolt + their only dispel, it can be game over easily for you.
Your life total also isn't really that relevant in this matchup, either you kill him before he has the board completely controlled or you lose.
I take them out because in my personal experience vs these decks life total is pretty relevant.
Especially G2/G3 when the pace of the game becomes much slower because of sideboarding. Often times I was facing a T2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang / Gurmag Angler plus Lightning Bolt as early removal.
The thing with their countermagic is, they (most likely) won't tap out for their fatties anyway so you can't really play around it when casting creatures.
I think Inkmoth Nexus is our best creature in this matchup for that reasons.
When you said "their only Dispel" I think you forgot that after boarding they will have at least 3x Dispel in their 60
Sometimes it's just hard to play around so many things but I don't see myself winning when boarding out more relevant Cards vs. Grixis. Looking at my list above what would you have boarded out in a matchup vs. Grixis instead?
Maybe that is just a personal preference and I am totally wrong about it but so far it has been working out pretty good for me.
Yeah, if you are trying to topdeck your solution for too long then the life total can get relevant I guess. I agree, inkmoth is definitely very good here letting us set the pace of the game.
It depends, I've seen lists which focus more on 2-3 spell snare and only run 1-2 dispels, but yes they can easily have 3 in the deck after SB, they do obviously go more all out disruption/removal after game 1.
I personally would take out a combination of mutagenics/wild defiance (plus the 2 DS obviously) depending if i'm on the play or on the draw. If my opponent goes first he will never allow me to put down wild defiance on my third turn except if he doesn't care about it and has terminates/other non damage based removals in hand. The mutagenics can give you a surprise kill but if you have lets say 2 in hand then he can just take the 5dmg with no problem, making you "lose" 2 cards ,letting the opponent keep the counters for more relevant things/stronger pumps(SBding out 1/2 mutagenics also spares you life points :P) . With gitaxian probe you'd be able to get to the more relevant things quicker whilst letting you know what you're up against/what you need to win. But hey, if the defiance/mutagenics are working out for you I'm glad ^^
Elf in the sideboard is more matchups like combo decks, where removal is slightly lighter, and I need a slightly faster clock. Considering the meta is full of jund, grixis, etc... a hexproof, normal damage MB wincon is not necessarily a bad idea. And at its core, its still an infect deck.
Well that's certainly a different approach lol, looks fun, idk if i'm too fond of taking out all of the glistener elves, it gives you a much harder matchup than needed vs things like tron. Since you're going full on 4 wild defiance+24 instants you could add dryad arbor MB, 1 more wincon? Vs jund and with all those pumps the stalker will be awesome I believe^^ the arbor would give you the needed liliana protection here i guess, which is the only thing capable of messing up your plan.
Edit: you could try swapping the elves with blighted agent MB, giving you a faster clock
vs combo and you would basically be exchanging a 1U cc unblockable for another. But i get why you'd want to mantain the agents MB ^^.
@Mana Flips
It might work, or you might get "time walk'ed" by a remand(g1)/deprive/mana leak, and having all mana tapped out and give another turn vs grixis is not where you want to be, but I get that once it's in play it can be very good vs certain things. It's just that it's too slow if you're on the draw imo, if grixis is already up to 4/5 lands they already have all of their 2 for 1 cards castable with snapcaster support which makes things very hard. Remand is also not THAT bad against us, especially early game vs blighted agent/spellskite/wild defiance,the slower we are the better for them, and late game vs become immense, or even when you're going for the kill and are short on mana. And even though cryptic command is 4 to cast all of the options are very good vs us and provide them with solutions they otherwise don't have(bouncing Wild defiance/skite EOT to take away the protection or bouncing a creature, tapping everything on crucial turn or after MOOK,a hard counter, and card adv) so they could just leave 1/2 on the play.
Well I am definately not planning on cutting the maindeck copies If they get countered then they get countered. It is not that our deck is centering around this card.
What I am trying to say is: of course it's hard to play around counterspells but you can not avoid runnning into some over the matches vs the (at my local meta) very popular Grixis decks. So you might as well keep cards in the 60 that NEED to be countered (Wild Defiance in our discussion)
The scenario you gave, if you're on the play you'd have a t2 wild defiance which they can't deal with with only 1 mana at their disposal so yeah, t2 wild defiance is great(i'd play it before agent even i believe, depends on your draws).
If you are on the draw your noble hierarch will most likely be either bolted or terminated or something, except if your opponent has a removal light hand, which means he should have more than 1 counter in hand (for both agent/defiance?) , if he instead has more removal than counters he can respond to the wild defiance by bolting your hierarch (if he hasnt done so before since he didnt know what youd do) and keeping another , lets say terminate, in case an actual threat comes out. Wild defiance gives your opponent the option to choose and adjust his hand to it, which can be bad, he might not even need to counter it, or he might feel like using his damage based cards in response, or he just lets it resolve since he has a cryptic just in case. This is considering he doesn't have a garbage hand of 3/4 lands +1/2 creatures xD.
You can definitely not avoid running into counters, but as a 3cc it is a target which, when countered, leaves you with no/1 mana up to defend, and slows the game down alot. Once you have a creature in play any decent pump spell can warrant a counter, and i just prefer to get my 1cc/rarely 2cc countered than my 3cc.
And we're not even taking into consideration that they sideboard in a full set of fulminator mages against us games 2/3, making the task to play wild defiance and protecting inkmoth at the same time harder, after SB i never tap my mana if i got my inkmoth down, it's too risky.this matchup is often a matter of pace, T3 is very important vs grixis imo, if you don't do anything useful they will have electrolyze/kolaghans command/snapcaster mage+spell mana available at EOT(or in resp to wild defiance if they dont want to counter it :D),all things we dislike.
I also run 2 wild defiance MB so i'm not trying to convince you of taking them out or anything like that. I mostly have 2 to bypass spellskite g1 and because I don't use thaaat many pumps,and I gotta say I love those moments you cast wild defiance and have 2 mutagenics in hand to give +10+10, or when you t2/3 wild defiance vs burn ^^
In the end it just depends on how compatible your hand is with your opponents, if he has the right answers and doesn't draw poorly he probably will win, if we have a good hand with enough protection/pumps/creatures the game should be ours.
@KeMT
I never noticed that besides the stalker both noble hierarch and blighted agent are humans as well, nice ^^
Burn and deliver are definitely coin flips; being on the draw is often the difference between a win or lose. I usually side out my mights and mutagenics for pierces and natures claims for life gain/removal against eidolon. Main deck rancor makes claim more viable. Dismember can be pretty strong against delve creatures, but without at least one overgrown tomb they can be painful. A card I've been considering is singing bell strike; it has been completely overlooked considering that infect rarely plays out a game where 6 mana becomes available to the opponent. Has anyone else considered this card? I've used it in blue aggro decks and have found it to be quite strong
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
They could technically just counter it, it is Remand fodder and you will rarely have 4 mana up when you cast wild defiance to defend it with a counter, but once in play I guess it can be good.
ForStonewood Invocation you'd need to have a creature stick around long enough,which vs jeskai control is hard especially mid game, they always have mana up and can either counter or remove it, or take care of it their turn. We just run 12 infect creatures and quickly run out. At least from my experience. I believe jeskai control decks just run 1 or 2 supreme verdicts, they can get to them with their cantrips but if you'd include 3/4 Thrun, the Last Troll instead of Invisible Stalker/Geist of Saint Traft you can easily draw it first or have multiples. Is it really that much slower than Stalker? It's a 1/1 and if you don't pump, which can get countered, it takes longer to kill than with a t4 Thrun. I get that it's very slow but it's for slower matchups, I've tried running Invisible Stalker but find it lacking in power, they can easily just manage around him by either counter him right away or just prevent the limited strong pumps you throw at him.
The times i've played Jeskai they actually sideboard sphynx out, one of them told me they believe it's too slow vs infect which is often true, it's only relevant at 6/7 mana, and even then they just gain 4 life, not that much .If they're on 7 lands , Thrun should be bashing in for 4 for a few turns already. The card advantage is more annoying but that's always hard to deal for infect whilst they have very few cards vs Thrun.
How so 2 mana? If you have an inkmoth and 2 lands then you can't put in any other land. If you start slowly swinging for 1 while always keeping up protection then they can just build up and after 1,2 or 3 more turns it's gonna be really hard for you. Snapcaster + bolt and a path, etc, plus They can easily have 2 cheap disruption spells. This is in the case they got a Tectonic obviously. I love simic charm and have wanted to try it out but like you said it's sometimes hard to pay the 2cc.
I'm not sure it'll be very effective or worth it, you lose 3 cards (pump/creature/Life's Legacy) and usually draw 5, let us know how it works out though
They're good vs Wild Defiance and a turn 2 remand on a 2cc card of yours can be annoying, but I agree it's not good,I used the remand example since that's the worst case scenario in that situation, any counter will do just fine vs wild defiance. Even if they don't run it MB they have an incredibly low mana curve with their disruption spells, it drives me insane since all they have to do is sit there waiting to respond and never give you an opening.
4 glistened elf
4 hierarch
4 blighted agent
4 plague stinger
3 apostles blessing
2 rancor
3 become immense
4 groundswell
4 might
3 mutagenic
4 vines
1 spell pierce
9 fetches
1 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
1 gemstone mine
2 forest
2 pendelhaven
4 nexus
SB:
1 spellskite
3 spell Pierce
4 natures claim
2 dismember
2 twisted image
3 wild defiance
No probes and 1 pool is a little strange to some, but land destruction usually targets my inkmoths and my meta is very aggressive; probes cost me so many games! Gemstone mine is actually really amazing, saving me from taking 2-6 points of damage (when you normally would have to fetch untapped shocks for black and blue in consecutive turns)
aint got much time so just some thoughts:
- 4 Wild Defiance in the 75 do not sound like what i want right now. when do you like having all 4 when it is only good vs bolts but sucks against path, terminate, command etc..
- if playing bant and three drops, i prefer 20 real lands Maindeck (arbor excluded)
- i prefer SB Geist over Stalker a lot. we got enough pumps to make geist never die during attacks and i often board it in in matchups like twin, scapeshift, grixis control, grixis delver and even vs burn that play not too much creatures anyway that might potentially block geist.
Path my own blighted agent holding priority, apostle's blessing the blighted agent giving it protection from white. Still get two +3/+3 triggers, path gets countered, and attack for lethal.
Here's my question. How do you think Infect stands in the current meta? Also, with this current meta, what do I need to watch out for? I have a mixture of all Tier 1 decks and a good majority of Tier 2 decks in my meta.
Anyway, I have chance to pick up a playset Noble Hierarch's this week and complete U/G Infect and just had these questions. Thanks!
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
2 Noble Hirearch
2 Spellskite
Instant
4 Apostle's Blessing
2 Become Immense
1 Groundswell
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Mutagenic Growth
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dispel
3 Nature's Claim
2x Wild Defiance
Land
4 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
So what I noticed against Naya Burn was that Eidolon of the Great Revel is the card that almost always screwed me. There were times where I'd have all my cards to win in hand, but couldn't cast them because of the Eidolon as I would have to kill myself to cast the game winning cards. Even after bringing in 3 Nature's Claim, I was not able to do too much against Eidolon because either I didn't draw it in time, or didn't draw it at all. The counters were useful here and there, but not enough to help me win. And when he managed to get TWO Eidolons out on the field, forget about it!
Become Immense has also not been very useful for me unfortunately. Especially if I drew into it early on, it would just sit in my hand and I'd be unable to cast it. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't how how people are playing this as a 4 of in the maindeck. Also maybe Monastery Siege is something I should consider instead of Wild Defiance? But I feel like unless it is a 4 of, I'm not going to see it very often and it won't change things enough due to this.
My strategy going against this deck was to just play it slow and only drop an infect creature when I had protection for it and enough juice to win the game on the next turn. But this would generally end up not being quick enough. Should I be trying another strategy?
Also I know I currently only have 2 Noble Hierarch, but I'll eventually have the playset. Not sure what I'd remove to put these two in though. I'm just kind of stumped when it comes to beating this burn deck. Does anyone else have a good/decent record against it? Any ideas or advice would be appreciated!
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
I feel like I'd be doing a very risky thing mulliganing a hand with an Agent + pump/protection though? With such a low infect creature count, my next hand could be a giant dud, and I'd be a card behind. Plus if I drop a Glistener Elf turn 1 and have no protection, it's almost definitely going to be burned in the next turn or two I'd imagine. On top of this, the opponent has 8 1 drop creatures that can come down and chump the elf immediately.
If crazy speed is something I need against burn, maybe I need to drop all the counters and add more creatures in there. Maybe with more Rancors so I can get past blockers with whatever creature I have out.
What do you think your percentage of wins is against burn and do you happen to know around how many rounds you have played against it?
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
I also prefer to play grixis control/twin over delver, the early 3/2 flyings are annoying and the former are both a bit clunkier, you can either outpace them or take it slow by slowly attacking for 1 and then overwhelm their mana t4/5 by using more pumps/protection they can respond to, the line of play depend on both your and your opponents hand though, if you can probe him it'll help alot as well.
How is the MB twisted image holding up for you Manaflips ? I have considered including one MB since it can be such a good card, but haven't come around to trying it.
@Scharfestahl
Burn is always a close and hard matchup for us,you have to pay attention to the details, especially how you use your life, even using your fetches poorly (take 3 instead of 1 when not needed) can influence the outcome of the game. What's your entire SB/MB? The 2 additional noble hierarchs would actually help you out, it gives your opponent another target to kill, accelerates your game (t2 wild defiance is very scary for them) and you can even block if needed.
What makes this matchup so hard are their creatures, if they have a creature light hand we can often deal with it, Spellskites are very good here, allowing you to block and pull,the old block and then claim your own spellskite trick is very good here, you got to play smart though, never give him up too early, once they have few cards in hand and you have a spellskite in play it is going to be hard for them, especially with natures claim or counter backup. If you have multiple creatures in hand just play them out and hope he uses up his burn on them instead of your lifepoints. So I'd say a 3rd Spellskite would benefit you, instead of, for example, your 4th apostle's blessing.
Looking at your current list I'd say you have a worse than usual matchup against burn since you run 4 apostle's blessing and 4 mutagenic growth. I personally take out both my mutagenics when I play burn and leave 2 apostle's for lack of better options.
If they happen to play an eidolon t2 you better pray on having a response for it or next turn kill in hand (since he'll be tapped out mana wise) or else it'll be hard, you often have to hope for a topdeck solution but even then it's sometimes too late.
This matchup is almost always a race so I take out the 1/2 wild defiances if on the draw. I don't know your SB but if you run path to exile instead of dismember it is also a viable option helping you out vs all the creatures. Then include your counters/claims as you have been doing and that's how good it can get vs burn except if you have something specific like Feed the Clan/Dragon's Claw in your SB.
This is yet another matchup in which I personally prefer more Groundswell/MOOK over Mutagenics. It is the same vs any disruption/removal heavy deck. I always find myself thinking of it this way, if my opponent has let's say 1 counter mana up, what do I prefer to have in hand,a combination of mutagenic/become immense/mook or instead just +4+4 spells? And the answer is almost always +4+4. Even if they counter one, you still deal 5 instead of 3 from a mutagenic which is the least probable target of the counter obviously. If you used s mutagenic, you just lost 2 valuable cards in hand and are not even halfway, another mutagenic will not take you very far either, whilst a second groundswell/mook could go in for the kill next turn. We already have no way to get card advantage, so imo +2+2 often doesn't justify a card slot, especially vs decks running counters which are never an easy matchup for us.
Now don't get me wrong, 0cc mutagenics are very good in certain situations. I'd say it helps us most vs G/R Tron evading the Pyroclasms, and vs disruption/counter light decks in which you can just chain the mutagenics/probes into a become immense with no response, but those matchups are already the easier ones for us. It also "helps" you vs kolaghan's command/electrolyze, but you'll still be 2 for 1'd and vs those kinds of decks you should rarely tap all of your mana so a groundswell/mook can to the same job as mutagenic if you play carefully and just don't tap out mana wise.
Edit:
Counters are always useful vs burn imo, either preventing damage or saving one of your creatures. If you have another protection in hand for your creature you should keep the counter for the nastier cards like Searing Blaze/Atarka's Command/Boros Charm.
More creatures do help since you can throw them away as bait wasting your opponents spells, so adding the 2 hierarchs and another spellskite is a good start. You can add another infect creature in ichorclaw myr as a 1 of for example, having a 13th infect creature can help out and it doesn't restringe your mana at all (also helps mulliganing less obviously).
Rancor isn't that great vs burn imo since they most probably will be attacking you with all their creatures anyways, and it gives them an opportunity to 2 for 1 you by going after your creature while the rancor is on the stack.
Here is my current deck + Sideboard
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
2 Noble Hirearch
2 Spellskite
Instant
4 Apostle's Blessing
2 Become Immense
2 Groundswell
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Gitaxian Probe
Enchantment
2 Rancor
2 Wild Defiance
Land
4 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Dismember
2 Dispel
3 Nature's Claim
2 Spell Pierce
2 Unsummon
2 Distortion Strike
2 Monastery Siege
Thanks for all the tips! Bouncing my own kite after a block is a cool idea. I always thought Apostle's Blessing was a very important card to have because it allows me to attack through blockers even with an elf while also protecting it from bolts etc. Is there a reason as to why Apostle's blessing isn't good here? Is it due to the need to shock myself to cast it? Same with Mutagenic Growth?
I generally try to fetch for basics after I have one Breeding Pool to conserve life. And even when I fetch for the Breeding Pool on turn 1, I'll generally bring it in tapped unless I have an elf that I plan to play. But again dropping an elf turn 1 is probably asking for it to be bolted immediately which is why I tried to avoid it.
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
It's mainly because of the shock yourself, but it is still good for the reasons you mentioned even though they often will not have a creature to block. It is useful to have 1 apostle's blessing in hand, a second one is almost always worse than let's say, having a counter/vines in hand. Your only cards which you should have as a 4 of in your deck are either crucial pieces of your strategy or cards you don't mind having twice in your starting hand. In this particular matchup having 2 apostle's blessing can take a sometimes relevant toll on your life points.
And I didn't mean bounce your Spellskite, i meant destroy it with a nature's claim after blocking and after your opponent casts a bolt to kill the skite, basically saving you 1-3 dmg from the block, you gaining +4 from the nature's claim, and he wastes a bolt (best case scenario). But I guess using the unsummon in the same situation can be very good as well, even letting you keep the skite ^^. Unsummon is not that good in this matchup though.
Yes, if you only have a glistener elf in your hand and nothing else try to avoid dropping it on t1, if you have a second creature then play the glistener elf to see if your opponent kills it or leaves it be (which happens more often than expected, depends on their hand). They also don't have THAT many cards which target creatures, one of them being rift bolt, so it occasionally happens where they have creatures/things like lava spike and atarkas command in hand, or just a single spell which target creatures, and they feel hesitant about using it(more so if you have mana up).
Haha I don't know why I was thinking of Unsummon when you mentioned Nature's Claim. But yeah both those options would be useful!
Also I guess I need to get out of the mindset that Apostle's Blessing is one of the most important cards to have. I've never had less than 4 of these in my iterations of this deck simply because I've felt like it was my one sure way of being able to attack using any creature that was on my battlefield no matter what the opponent controls (for the most part). This was from back when I was playing mono-green infect and had barely any evasion. At that point Blesssing was definitely a crucial part of my strategy.
Infect
Affinity
Grixis Shadow
Jekai Nahiri
Naya Burn
8-Whack
I prefer 3, I absolutely love the card for being able to protect and give evasion but against creature light decks, which are fairly common, you don't need evasion so having 4 apostle's/4 blighted agent and 2 rancor is overkill. Evasion is not your first priority. And if you happen to have too much protection not named vines of vastwood in your hand, you will probably be lacking pumps. I hope we get something similar to vines of vastwood in the future, pumping and protecting is just so good ^-^.
I can see as to why you'd need more evasion in mono green, but in u/g I think having 4 blighted/4 inkmoth/3 apostle's blessing suffices vs most matchups. If you run rancors then it's even easier.
Edit: that said, your deck can often depend on your metagame, if you play alot of mono colored creature heavy decks then 4 apostle's blessing is definitely the way to go.
You are also running 2 distortion strike sideboard, i think you should either drop them or replace rancor with them maindeck(they do have better synergy with wild defiance) so you would have 2 SB slots freed. If you want to keep 3 then you can split them 1Mb /2SB or 2/1
I for example am being constantly harassed in my FNM's by grindy Jeskai Control/ W/R/x decks with both path and bolt, so I will be trying out 3 Thrun, the Last Troll SB to show them ^^.
Edit 2:
I was just reading through the last posts, and might I ask why you take the gitaxian probe's out here? Imo gitaxian probe is very important vs decks which only run few cheap removal spells and more counters/things like kolaghans command/electrolyze. These matchups tempt you to go all in early hoping that he does not have more than 1 cheap response in hand (ex:lightning bolt) but if you run into a bolt + their only dispel, it can be game over easily for you.
Your life total also isn't really that relevant in this matchup, either you kill him before he has the board completely controlled or you lose.
Yeah, if you are trying to topdeck your solution for too long then the life total can get relevant I guess. I agree, inkmoth is definitely very good here letting us set the pace of the game.
It depends, I've seen lists which focus more on 2-3 spell snare and only run 1-2 dispels, but yes they can easily have 3 in the deck after SB, they do obviously go more all out disruption/removal after game 1.
I personally would take out a combination of mutagenics/wild defiance (plus the 2 DS obviously) depending if i'm on the play or on the draw. If my opponent goes first he will never allow me to put down wild defiance on my third turn except if he doesn't care about it and has terminates/other non damage based removals in hand. The mutagenics can give you a surprise kill but if you have lets say 2 in hand then he can just take the 5dmg with no problem, making you "lose" 2 cards ,letting the opponent keep the counters for more relevant things/stronger pumps(SBding out 1/2 mutagenics also spares you life points :P) . With gitaxian probe you'd be able to get to the more relevant things quicker whilst letting you know what you're up against/what you need to win. But hey, if the defiance/mutagenics are working out for you I'm glad ^^
2x Breeding Pool
2x Forest
4x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Pendelhaven
1x Temple Garden
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Apostle's Blessing
4x Become Immense
4x Groundswell
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Mutagenic Growth
4x Vines of Vastwood
Creature (12)
4x Blighted Agent
4x Invisible Stalker
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wild Defiance
4x Glistener Elf
2x Nature's Claim
3x Path to Exile
2x Spell Pierce
1x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
Elf in the sideboard is more matchups like combo decks, where removal is slightly lighter, and I need a slightly faster clock. Considering the meta is full of jund, grixis, etc... a hexproof, normal damage MB wincon is not necessarily a bad idea. And at its core, its still an infect deck.
Thoughts?
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Well that's certainly a different approach lol, looks fun, idk if i'm too fond of taking out all of the glistener elves, it gives you a much harder matchup than needed vs things like tron. Since you're going full on 4 wild defiance+24 instants you could add dryad arbor MB, 1 more wincon? Vs jund and with all those pumps the stalker will be awesome I believe^^ the arbor would give you the needed liliana protection here i guess, which is the only thing capable of messing up your plan.
Edit: you could try swapping the elves with blighted agent MB, giving you a faster clock
vs combo and you would basically be exchanging a 1U cc unblockable for another. But i get why you'd want to mantain the agents MB ^^.
@Mana Flips
It might work, or you might get "time walk'ed" by a remand(g1)/deprive/mana leak, and having all mana tapped out and give another turn vs grixis is not where you want to be, but I get that once it's in play it can be very good vs certain things. It's just that it's too slow if you're on the draw imo, if grixis is already up to 4/5 lands they already have all of their 2 for 1 cards castable with snapcaster support which makes things very hard. Remand is also not THAT bad against us, especially early game vs blighted agent/spellskite/wild defiance,the slower we are the better for them, and late game vs become immense, or even when you're going for the kill and are short on mana. And even though cryptic command is 4 to cast all of the options are very good vs us and provide them with solutions they otherwise don't have(bouncing Wild defiance/skite EOT to take away the protection or bouncing a creature, tapping everything on crucial turn or after MOOK,a hard counter, and card adv) so they could just leave 1/2 on the play.
The scenario you gave, if you're on the play you'd have a t2 wild defiance which they can't deal with with only 1 mana at their disposal so yeah, t2 wild defiance is great(i'd play it before agent even i believe, depends on your draws).
If you are on the draw your noble hierarch will most likely be either bolted or terminated or something, except if your opponent has a removal light hand, which means he should have more than 1 counter in hand (for both agent/defiance?) , if he instead has more removal than counters he can respond to the wild defiance by bolting your hierarch (if he hasnt done so before since he didnt know what youd do) and keeping another , lets say terminate, in case an actual threat comes out. Wild defiance gives your opponent the option to choose and adjust his hand to it, which can be bad, he might not even need to counter it, or he might feel like using his damage based cards in response, or he just lets it resolve since he has a cryptic just in case. This is considering he doesn't have a garbage hand of 3/4 lands +1/2 creatures xD.
You can definitely not avoid running into counters, but as a 3cc it is a target which, when countered, leaves you with no/1 mana up to defend, and slows the game down alot. Once you have a creature in play any decent pump spell can warrant a counter, and i just prefer to get my 1cc/rarely 2cc countered than my 3cc.
And we're not even taking into consideration that they sideboard in a full set of fulminator mages against us games 2/3, making the task to play wild defiance and protecting inkmoth at the same time harder, after SB i never tap my mana if i got my inkmoth down, it's too risky.this matchup is often a matter of pace, T3 is very important vs grixis imo, if you don't do anything useful they will have electrolyze/kolaghans command/snapcaster mage+spell mana available at EOT(or in resp to wild defiance if they dont want to counter it :D),all things we dislike.
I also run 2 wild defiance MB so i'm not trying to convince you of taking them out or anything like that. I mostly have 2 to bypass spellskite g1 and because I don't use thaaat many pumps,and I gotta say I love those moments you cast wild defiance and have 2 mutagenics in hand to give +10+10, or when you t2/3 wild defiance vs burn ^^
In the end it just depends on how compatible your hand is with your opponents, if he has the right answers and doesn't draw poorly he probably will win, if we have a good hand with enough protection/pumps/creatures the game should be ours.
@KeMT
I never noticed that besides the stalker both noble hierarch and blighted agent are humans as well, nice ^^