Can we get a full on discussion of Dig Through Time in this deck specifically though? I think it could have been good except for the fact that it feels like it requires you to already have been in a good position mana-cost wise. To cast it you need anywhere from 8 mana sources or 6 cards in your graveyard, adding and subtracting from each as necessary. Which means most likely you are not slipping up with a constant stream of mana and cards (and sometimes that just doesn't happen). I feel like this card is easily fueled by a liliana on either side of the board, so maybe it helps in the rock/rack matchups when we need specific cards?
This realistically seems like the only new card worth talking about it, so I thought Id try to kick a real discussion about it. It seems like one of those cards that should help fix our necessity of a "drawing the right card at the right time" structure of the faeries deck...but it makes you jump through too many hoops to be an auto-include
With a huge ignore everything I'm saying caveat of not having played it, I suspect the card for us is winmore. We're not a deck that wants to stick two specific cards together in order to justwin. And we lack anything that quickly throws a lot of cards into our grave (Darkblast is in SB so discounted). So when will we cast it? T6? T7? We paid a card to have it in our hand. So we're up exactly one card after casting. That would be good if we were pairing up cards and justwinning.
That leaves me looking at this as a card for the long game. But if you think about it, in the long game we ought to be casting Cryptic for value: I feel like we'd rather maindeck our fourth Cryptic than run Dig Through Time.
Can we get a full on discussion of Dig Through Time in this deck specifically though? I think it could have been good except for the fact that it feels like it requires you to already have been in a good position mana-cost wise. To cast it you need anywhere from 8 mana sources or 6 cards in your graveyard, adding and subtracting from each as necessary. Which means most likely you are not slipping up with a constant stream of mana and cards (and sometimes that just doesn't happen). I feel like this card is easily fueled by a liliana on either side of the board, so maybe it helps in the rock/rack matchups when we need specific cards?
I tested some against U-Tron and they felt terrible, but that may depend on that matchup. I played a pretty standard list with Pack Rat, Snapcaster and fetches added, so no cantrips which might have been another factor. I often had one or even both of them (played 2) in my hand without being able to cast them effectively.
I did not play many games though the test isn't that expressive but that again they simply felt terrible. I have a feeling that Fae might not be able to support them easily, although Liliana would have helped a huge deal (but I really don't like her either :)) I think the card needs to much setup for us to shine and decks like Scapeshift and UWR probably could use it way better.
We should pray that Ancestral Visions will be unbanned some day
@Briangrp: First of all congrats on your finishes. I don't really get your explanation for Scion though. The described Board state probably had 3 Living tokens + Tar Pit. You played the Scion and attacked for 10 with Tar pit (so 3 token *2 damage + 1 from Scion + 3 from Tar Pit). The question here is: Would you have lost the game if it was 1 turn longer? Exactly that would have happened without Scion (3 damage from token + 3 tar pit, then 4 from tokens +3 from Tar Pit) where even a Spellstutter would have sealed the deal. I don't think that example was really impressive to be honest but then again, I don't know the exact board state and if it had mattered its fine.
The thing I see with Scion is: He is often a 1/1 dude without impact (no blossom, only 1 spellstutter and such) where Snapcaster (-2 Scion) or the additional Vendilion Clique (-1 Scion) probably would have had way more impact. Of course this depends on so much factors that it's hard to really tell but I probably gained more value from Turn 2 Snapcasters than I would have had from Scion of Oona so far.
Without early counter magic I think your Tron matchup is even worse? Probably trading this one for the sake of Pod and co, so that may be fine. I think you underestimate the role of Spell Snare though, as it often helps to force your spells through rather than being used to defensively
One last question I'm really interested in: Did you test with Pack Rats? Can't remember if you ever said something and I think they have way more impact than Scion of Oona (and help playing proactive as well).
On my phone so I can't go into too much detail but my example for scion was against pod. Idk bout your experience but every extra turn you give pod is a turn that pod can just take the game from you. Their topdecks are that damn powerful. Also, a point I skipped, running 4 scion makes running 3 mistbinds safe. And mistbinds closes games out very very easily I've found. When I ran without scions I had a very significant amount of dead mistbinds draws, now it happens but way way less often.
I'm fine with a meh tron matchup, personally. Its not super popular in paper, and mostly mono u tron online that I see anyways. You beat tron by stopping their wurmcoils or karns, and kill em before emmy shows up. Countering their ramp doesn't work for us like it does for the ur Fae variants, we don't have burn for reach once they get tronny. I just usually play it very aggro and try to race.
Lately, online, there hasn't been lots of countetmagic to worry about, making spell snare a lot worse IMO. Sure its good against bgx...but so is having the extra maindeck kill spells. Less dead draws is good. We are a late game, midrange/control deck. I don't want to draw things mid/late that are narrow like spell snare. That's why I cut remands and leaks, I want the majority of my draws to be gas. So I had to sacrifice some "early" disruption. If ya watch my stream ever you'll see I even board out discard in a lot of matches for that very reason. Its been working for me, as I said, pretend we are a bgx deck and not a U based control deck. That's the mental switch that changed my entire outlook and has since helped my record IMO.
I ran a 2 of pack rat in the past. I didn't like it, sure it takes over a few games, but idk. I think I take PVDs old playing faeries a to z article to heart and really looked at maintaining the synergies of the deck(hence my endorsing of scions lately). I feel the synergies that playing Fae tribal gives us are worth the occasional disruption tribal sometimes faces. Curving bb into sss/scion into mistbinds is just too damn good. Any game you hit that curve, you generally can't lose. Playing up those synergies I think is the route to legitimacy for the deck. Diluting that strategy I think makes me rather wanna swap to a BUg good stuff shell instead of a "faeries" shell. I don't want to play a ub control deck with bitterblossom. I want to play faeries. That sounds very unspike, I guess...but I mean it as I'm trying to build the best faeries competitive list, not just a generic UB control list(as I think straight control isn't viable in modern, durdle does NOT work. And there are better shells for a pure control deck in modern, like uwr or esper even. Or hell, actual jund.)
I failed at this post/quote thing. Like I said, posting from phone and the curse forums suck on mobile lol *edit*
Pod taking over the game with a topdeck really depends on the boardstate imho (as I can't really imagine a time with an empty board that anything they drew would have made a huge difference... but then again those vacuum discussions are quite worthless as Magic is a hell of a complex game and one would have to take number of cards in hands, life totals etc. into account).
I guess I just jump over my shadow and give Scion another shot in this deck and just see how it goes. I mean I was kind of satified with Pack Rat, but optimizing never hurts.
I don't really see how swapping dead cards in one matchup for dead cards in another helps though. I get you often want to draw something relevant (so removal in creature heavy matchups) than a counterspell that comes one turn to late... but by skipping all remands/snares your UWR/scapeshift/storm matchup WILL get worse... but I guess we can agree that it comes down to metagaming here, so that's rather fine with me.
I never saw one of your streams, but I might do if there are some recorded somewhere. I too often board out Discard when I feel it's rather irrelevant and I have to get quite some sideboard pieces, so I can understand your thoughts on that so far at least.
My vod stay up on twitch.TV/brianbgrp for two weeks, and I export most of them to YouTube(same username BTW) feel free
I was the same way with scion at first, felt very men about him until I just started jamming him for testing purposes and watched em overachieve. I think a pile of early counter magic doesnt help the uwr matchup, you win that by resolving blossom. Leaks and remands get you nowhere special, extra kill spells to stop them from any board presence(every kill spell in my deck kills a colonnade, BTW) . scapeshift is rough, but it was rough IMO when I was on remands as well. You do NOT win counter wars with scapeshift. Frankly, I've won more scapeshift games off the back of scions giving me an actual clock than I ever did trying to play the counter game against em. Scion stopping electrolyzes is insane in that match.
Storm I won't even go into. If I lose to storm, its cause they had a very good hand. Between discard and spell stutters, early game is usually covered. Then I can kill em before they go off. It helps that I love storm and play a lot of it as well, so its usually fairly simple to know when/what to disrupt. Storm isn't something a spell stutter deck really needs to fret about I think.
I'm not saying pack rats are incorrect BTW. I see them as a perfectly viable game plan, especially in certain met as....I just don't like them. Simple as that, the card ruined limited, ruined standard, and its not fun to play or to lose against. Another unspike mindset, but I do like the deck better without them even away from my personal bias. The bias just ensures I stay away I play to win and be competitive, but I also play to enjoy myself. I don't think rats significantly increase our win% to warrant inclusion despite my bias, so I don't touch the ugly little *****s. /endrant
Good to see you doing so well! If you can pour 2 additional thoughseizes and/or 2 spreadings seas/ghost quarters around in the 75, this must give you a slightly better edge against Tron decks. Also, what decks do you plan to use Flashfreeze against? (apart from Burn and Scapeshift)
Flashfreeze comes in against pod, the nyxwave decks if you stumble into em. Amulet of vigor combo. It's just really very versatile sideboard combo I recently started testing after seeing Jeff Hoogland really get a lot out of it, and I haven't looked back. It actually hits a lot of cards.
I used to run tec edge, but I don't think we have room for utility lands beyond our manlands. I could run one or two if I cut liliana(then I could cut the sunken ruins) but I think that's too much tradeoff for a small chance of seeing a partial answer. I have however been able to use memoricide out of the board against tron(usually name karn, or wurmcoil if I have board presence and just need to kill them. Its narrow, but the memoricide has been a fun one of for me(in paper, that slot is a hurkyls recall. They are 55$ online tho, so not bothering there yet)
@Brian: I did not think you said the rat was bad, simply thought I might give Scion another shot.
The fun thing is: We all know that Fae is a highly customizeable deck, which is one of the reasons the discussion can be "hostile" in here, as different persons have a hard time overcoming their views to adapt what others say. I can see some of this (well, without being hostile of course ... don't really know how I should explain this clearly, so I hope everyone gets it) in our discussion. For instance I think the Scapeshift matchup at least can be completely different, as I won several counterwars against them and never lost because I haven't had enough pressure and I think it's one of our best matchups
Part of me thinks it's really nice that everyone can has his/her cup of tea with the deck (and this shows how powerful the core can be) but it's really hard to compare things when lists can differ quite a bit. For instance I may not be the best in the Storm matchup (as this deck CAN go nuts quite easily) but the matches I've won probably included some more countermagic than SSS.
Just tried to watch something and I like your beard! :X
Haha ya I agree. There are probably closer to like 2/3 variations of faeries all in this one archetype and that causes some of the issues I've noticed between posters here. So I agree completely on that
And yeah, I haven't shaved since my wedding on may 8th. Wife hasn't complained yet, so I'm going for the yeard unless she says no more I've noticed, and will warn you now, when I start thinking hard I play with my beard a lot. I didn't realize it until I started rewatching my own streams for note taking g lol
I've noticed, and will warn you now, when I start thinking hard I play with my beard a lot. I didn't realize it until I started rewatching my own streams for note taking g lol
I've got a beard myself and I know that habit Just wanted to compliment you on that fullbeard, as I have a style most of the metalheads seem to wear (so no hair on the side of the face... you know?)... but I think that starts another topic that doesn't have much in common with Fae.
To say something on topic: I will give some feedback after testing with Scion... but that could take some time as the next Modern event is in two and a half weeks :X
Feel free to hit me up with thoughts on scion fair warning, it'll take a bit of adjusting. Scions require you to play more aggressively, but once you get the feel of em down, I think its worth the occasional situation of having nothing but a 1/1 for 3. Countering an electrolyze, or surprise buffing tokens to make blocks in your favor are insane, ntm the extra clock. And 3/3 or better mutavaults are pretty good ;). I've committed to the scion list, and if lacking testing, can always join my stream to see em in action
So I went 3 wins and 1 draw in my last modern FNM getting first place. I played against 8rack (2-1), UG infect (2-1), UR Faeries (2-0) and Melira Pod in the final (1-1). It is a more control version of the deck.
Some comments I have to make. I didn't see much of my swords so I am not sure how to evaluate them but I do know that there were more cases where I was hoping to draw something else rather than the swords.
3 Thoughtseize was quite good although I though it would be bad. I like have 5 discards main deck and they have been stellar. Before the FNM I was going to play 3 IoK and 2 TS but changed it at the last min and it ended up to be the right call.
Not running snapcasters is not that bad after all. I used to run 2 of them, went down to 1 and now 0 and I don't really miss them. Our spells make value for themselves or they have the bonus of being on a body.
Chalice of the Void is simply a great choice in the SB. Has won me games against a ton of MUs and I wouldn't even consider dropping it ever, especially with the rise of Burn. I board it in against Burn, sometimes zoo (depending on the variant), 8rack, any form of infect, UR delver and sometimes storm.
I can't see why anyone would ever run Negate over Countersquall in this deck with such a consistent mana base and I would really love if someone who is running them to justify the choice. Countersquall dealing 2 damage is highly relevant.
For the future, based on the discussion which is going on, I will drop 2 swords and one Vendillion Clique to try out 3 Scions again and see how I feel about em. They all replace 3 drops anyway so it is worth a try.
Briangrp grats for your results. I watched some of your videos and I have a hard time understanding the lack of counters in favor of so many removals. It obviously works, but I have yet to be convinced that it will work in a very large tournament. There are so many threats that are non creatures and IoK or spellstutter can't hit. I know that it has already been discussed to an extent, but would you run so many removals in a GP for example?
PS: Yeah beards and Fae! Go my Bearded fae brethren
How did you play against 8rack? What did you board in/out? Ive ran a similar list* to an FNM (25 peeps) and rolled out 3-1-0....if you cant that last RG-tron match as a win (time). I can even see Chalice as an option for X = 1 against Trondecks, as that will seriously hamper their speed spells.
EDIT: *It is almost identical, I ran Lilianas over the Swords and Doom blades over Throats.
First off, great job on doing well with your Faerie List. I've been meaning to watch you stream, but I keep getting busy. On that note, I went to watch one of your recordings, and just to make you aware there are parts that are getting censored (probably due to any music you may be playing). So if you are saying anything during portions of some of your video, no one can hear it.
Anyway I have a few questions to ask about a few cards choices you have in your list, and forgive me if you've already answered for some of these:
Absence of Pack Rat:
I clearly can't say not running the Rat is wrong sicne you've been doing well, but what made you decide to not include them in your list? With the exception of Rats I run a Faerie list that has a creature base identical to your own, so I understand it can feel awkward to have them in hand with say a Scion. But then you realize that it isn't a Scion, rather another Rat your opponent can't deal with, and suddenly you're having a hay day lol.
All the removal 1-ofs (Far//Away, Go for the Throat, Slaughter Pact, Vendetta):
First off, why so many one ofs? When you have this many singletons for removal I feel like your deck would be so much better running some Snapcaster Mages. Do you find having such a large number of removal spells is better than say running counter spells such as Remand or Mana Leak? Speaking of which....
Low number of counterspells (Only 7? Really?):
Between Cryptic Command and Spellstutter Sprite you only have 7 counterspells in the deck. Have you ever felt like you wanted more in your list (and maybe didn't know what to cut for them)? I know I feel my list would be a lot worse off if I took out all my Remands and my fourth Cryptic.
Dem Sorcery Speed Spells (Lilianna of the Veil & Batterskull):
So first off I am wondering how well both of these have fared for you basically on their own. Then I am wondering how they work with the rest of your deck. Lilianna is a list without flashback spells, or Snapcaster seems like a really awkward sorcery speed sac effect that won't get us much value out of +1-ing. And Batterskull has super negative synergy with Scion of Oona. Yes you can equip the Scion, but that'll be it, everything else has Shroud.
That's about all I can think to ask about for now, again, good job on doing so well
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#PayThePros
liliana and batterskull win games. it's as simple as that, you have to keep in mind, when i rebuilt my list to include scions a few weeks ago, i decided to go about it not as a counterspell style control list, but as more of a bg/x STYLE list. don't look at my list and see blue and expect it to be your generic blue control deck, it's not. the entire gameplan is to trade 1 for 1 early as often as possible, then let cards like blossom, cryptic, mistbind give us "2 for 1" situations that pull us ahead and end the game over a few turns after stabilizing. similar to say jund, just doing trades till midgame, then landing an uncontested goyf and finishing the opponent off. or same thing, but with ravines, etc.
with less maindeck countermagic, it makes tapping out for things like lili and bskull alot less scary, and the raw power of those cards are worth it, imo. between discard, spellstutters, and kill spells, early games are usually full anyways even without remands/leaks. and those of you saying there are tons of scary non creature threats out there you need to counter....i'd like to know what meta's your playing in, 'cause in a pod/bgx/twin meta like mtgo is, my removal is all live 90% of the time. and generally easier to resolve than fighting counter wars over the creature itself. and if one sneaks through, that counterspell in your hand is useless.
There's always someone on Jeskai Control (I'm using the Khan names damn it!)
There's always 1-2 people playing RG Tron
Never played without someone on Affinity
Always at least 2-4 Pod players
Rest of the room is on a mix of BGx decks, with most of them being Jund.
We'll occasionally have a random brew, or Tier 2 list, but that is what my meta looks like.
Anyway...
Are there any cards in Khans you think would add to your deck? I've heard some people talk about Dig Through Time and honestly, it seems like it would be best in decks that are running Pack Rat or Lilianna as they let you fill up your graveyard and then Delve it for value.
Just in your opinion, what would you do with my list? I want to try adding more consistency by putting in Serum Visions, but I also like how tempo oriented my current list can be. I can Remand a huge threat, then Vendilion Clique it away on the next turn. I am able to turn Pack Rat into a threat that just dominates my opponents and makes every draw live. Tamiyo has honestly done great work for me against Tron lists, where if I can keep them off their tutor effects it helps me lock down a Tron land which really slows them down. But at the same time, I can say I haven't had as much success with my list as you have had with yours. It could all be a meta issue, but I feel that using that excuse is just a bit of a cop-out.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
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#PayThePros
I knew the guy who was playing, so from G1 I knew I was going against 8rack (which gave me an edge). Game one I decided to go with the manlands plan. I was always keeping manlands and discarding removals and mistbinds. At some point I landed a BB but he was playing abrupt decay. In any case, he was low on his rack count (cause I countered one) and kept pressing with manlands. In the end I lost G1 by a turn, he was at 1 life, and I had 1 card in hand with a rack in play.
G2 I boarded in: Chalice of the Void, 2x Countersquall, 2x Hurkyl's Recail. Out: 1x Disfigure, 2x Dismember, 1x Vendilion Clique, 1x Cryptic Command
I kept a 2 lander with 3 SSS which I basically rode to victory. They kept countering and attacking while I countered the rest of his stuff. Countersquall was amazing and helped me win the race after he resolved Rack. He discarded my Chalice T1 unfortunately.
G3 I went T2 Chalice into BB. At some point he played the bridge which I recalled into counter.
Overall for the MU (cause I have played with that friend a couple of times) I would say: SSS is great, try to keep manlands cause they are the threat that sticks, and always keep mana for countering the bridge. Ensnaring bridge G1 is autoloss. The MU is not amazing but with the right timings it can be great. Counter their TS or IoK if you have something to protect in your hand, otherwise try to keep it (as long as it is possible to keep something in your hand against 8rack)for larger threats like lili, bridge and rack (in that order).
@RyO37 : Recall is pretty narrow, in that it really does only work against Affinity. On the bright side you only need 2 (3 is your meta has a TON of affinity) to really hose them with it (particularly if you run Snapcaster). Most of the kill spells will already be good against them, and we are obviously not weak to the flying aspect. It is the best way to keep their godly draws in check to allow us to get to Cryptic Command or Mistbind clique which will turn the games in our favor big time.
- There might be some small value to Recall if there is a lot of blue tron in your meta, they tend to run mana rocks (for color fixing) and more artifacts in general. Being able to bounce a Platinum Angel to swing for lethal is huge (bigger than cryptic because its 2 mana which means we can do more countering after or more easily thoughtseize before casting). If Tezzeret becomes a thing from GP Kobe its useful there too, it resets all their animated Tezz artifacts.
about half of those cards can easily time walk your opponent (one literally does!), and have appeared in different lists across whatever time. The instant speed is right up our alley and it shouldn't be that hard to fill a graveyard by turn 5-6 between :
Discard (for those that run it)
Liliana (+1 is feed)
Pack Rat (pitch for feed)
Kill Spells
Probably 1 fetch land if you run it (unless you run 7+ then likely 2 fetches)
Counterspells (for those who run it)
creatures that died to bolts (SSS Im lookin at you)
Other than lists that run Snapcaster Mage we don't use our graveyard for anything else (random Raven's Crimes aside), this card also lets us definently run Grafdigger's Cage over Relic of Progenitus since this is just another outlet to shrink Goyfs (not reliably, but we shouldn't "need" that reliaby... just a bonus). Living End has never been a problem for us anyway.. Cascade, sure, Living End, resp SSS... oh dead on the stack? Still countered
I'm not a fan of Rune Snag. While it is better than Mana Leak in the late game, it is worse than it in the early-mid game when it matters. Other than that your list seems good.
I'm not a fan of Rune Snag. While it is better than Mana Leak in the late game, it is worse than it in the early-mid game when it matters. Other than that your list seems good.
Agreed on these points here, there are enough decks playing discard and/or Gitaxian Probe that Rune Snag or Mana Leak seem bad right now. I would rather have Remand just for the sake of drawing a card off of it.
With a huge ignore everything I'm saying caveat of not having played it, I suspect the card for us is winmore. We're not a deck that wants to stick two specific cards together in order to justwin. And we lack anything that quickly throws a lot of cards into our grave (Darkblast is in SB so discounted). So when will we cast it? T6? T7? We paid a card to have it in our hand. So we're up exactly one card after casting. That would be good if we were pairing up cards and justwinning.
That leaves me looking at this as a card for the long game. But if you think about it, in the long game we ought to be casting Cryptic for value: I feel like we'd rather maindeck our fourth Cryptic than run Dig Through Time.
On my phone so I can't go into too much detail but my example for scion was against pod. Idk bout your experience but every extra turn you give pod is a turn that pod can just take the game from you. Their topdecks are that damn powerful. Also, a point I skipped, running 4 scion makes running 3 mistbinds safe. And mistbinds closes games out very very easily I've found. When I ran without scions I had a very significant amount of dead mistbinds draws, now it happens but way way less often.
I'm fine with a meh tron matchup, personally. Its not super popular in paper, and mostly mono u tron online that I see anyways. You beat tron by stopping their wurmcoils or karns, and kill em before emmy shows up. Countering their ramp doesn't work for us like it does for the ur Fae variants, we don't have burn for reach once they get tronny. I just usually play it very aggro and try to race.
Lately, online, there hasn't been lots of countetmagic to worry about, making spell snare a lot worse IMO. Sure its good against bgx...but so is having the extra maindeck kill spells. Less dead draws is good. We are a late game, midrange/control deck. I don't want to draw things mid/late that are narrow like spell snare. That's why I cut remands and leaks, I want the majority of my draws to be gas. So I had to sacrifice some "early" disruption. If ya watch my stream ever you'll see I even board out discard in a lot of matches for that very reason. Its been working for me, as I said, pretend we are a bgx deck and not a U based control deck. That's the mental switch that changed my entire outlook and has since helped my record IMO.
I ran a 2 of pack rat in the past. I didn't like it, sure it takes over a few games, but idk. I think I take PVDs old playing faeries a to z article to heart and really looked at maintaining the synergies of the deck(hence my endorsing of scions lately). I feel the synergies that playing Fae tribal gives us are worth the occasional disruption tribal sometimes faces. Curving bb into sss/scion into mistbinds is just too damn good. Any game you hit that curve, you generally can't lose. Playing up those synergies I think is the route to legitimacy for the deck. Diluting that strategy I think makes me rather wanna swap to a BUg good stuff shell instead of a "faeries" shell. I don't want to play a ub control deck with bitterblossom. I want to play faeries. That sounds very unspike, I guess...but I mean it as I'm trying to build the best faeries competitive list, not just a generic UB control list(as I think straight control isn't viable in modern, durdle does NOT work. And there are better shells for a pure control deck in modern, like uwr or esper even. Or hell, actual jund.)
I failed at this post/quote thing. Like I said, posting from phone and the curse forums suck on mobile lol *edit*
Pod taking over the game with a topdeck really depends on the boardstate imho (as I can't really imagine a time with an empty board that anything they drew would have made a huge difference... but then again those vacuum discussions are quite worthless as Magic is a hell of a complex game and one would have to take number of cards in hands, life totals etc. into account).
I guess I just jump over my shadow and give Scion another shot in this deck and just see how it goes. I mean I was kind of satified with Pack Rat, but optimizing never hurts.
I don't really see how swapping dead cards in one matchup for dead cards in another helps though. I get you often want to draw something relevant (so removal in creature heavy matchups) than a counterspell that comes one turn to late... but by skipping all remands/snares your UWR/scapeshift/storm matchup WILL get worse... but I guess we can agree that it comes down to metagaming here, so that's rather fine with me.
I never saw one of your streams, but I might do if there are some recorded somewhere. I too often board out Discard when I feel it's rather irrelevant and I have to get quite some sideboard pieces, so I can understand your thoughts on that so far at least.
I was the same way with scion at first, felt very men about him until I just started jamming him for testing purposes and watched em overachieve. I think a pile of early counter magic doesnt help the uwr matchup, you win that by resolving blossom. Leaks and remands get you nowhere special, extra kill spells to stop them from any board presence(every kill spell in my deck kills a colonnade, BTW) . scapeshift is rough, but it was rough IMO when I was on remands as well. You do NOT win counter wars with scapeshift. Frankly, I've won more scapeshift games off the back of scions giving me an actual clock than I ever did trying to play the counter game against em. Scion stopping electrolyzes is insane in that match.
Storm I won't even go into. If I lose to storm, its cause they had a very good hand. Between discard and spell stutters, early game is usually covered. Then I can kill em before they go off. It helps that I love storm and play a lot of it as well, so its usually fairly simple to know when/what to disrupt. Storm isn't something a spell stutter deck really needs to fret about I think.
I'm not saying pack rats are incorrect BTW. I see them as a perfectly viable game plan, especially in certain met as....I just don't like them. Simple as that, the card ruined limited, ruined standard, and its not fun to play or to lose against. Another unspike mindset, but I do like the deck better without them even away from my personal bias. The bias just ensures I stay away I play to win and be competitive, but I also play to enjoy myself. I don't think rats significantly increase our win% to warrant inclusion despite my bias, so I don't touch the ugly little *****s. /endrant
Good to see you doing so well! If you can pour 2 additional thoughseizes and/or 2 spreadings seas/ghost quarters around in the 75, this must give you a slightly better edge against Tron decks. Also, what decks do you plan to use Flashfreeze against? (apart from Burn and Scapeshift)
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678I used to run tec edge, but I don't think we have room for utility lands beyond our manlands. I could run one or two if I cut liliana(then I could cut the sunken ruins) but I think that's too much tradeoff for a small chance of seeing a partial answer. I have however been able to use memoricide out of the board against tron(usually name karn, or wurmcoil if I have board presence and just need to kill them. Its narrow, but the memoricide has been a fun one of for me(in paper, that slot is a hurkyls recall. They are 55$ online tho, so not bothering there yet)
The fun thing is: We all know that Fae is a highly customizeable deck, which is one of the reasons the discussion can be "hostile" in here, as different persons have a hard time overcoming their views to adapt what others say. I can see some of this (well, without being hostile of course ... don't really know how I should explain this clearly, so I hope everyone gets it) in our discussion. For instance I think the Scapeshift matchup at least can be completely different, as I won several counterwars against them and never lost because I haven't had enough pressure and I think it's one of our best matchups
Part of me thinks it's really nice that everyone can has his/her cup of tea with the deck (and this shows how powerful the core can be) but it's really hard to compare things when lists can differ quite a bit. For instance I may not be the best in the Storm matchup (as this deck CAN go nuts quite easily) but the matches I've won probably included some more countermagic than SSS.
Just tried to watch something and I like your beard! :X
Edit: WTF 55$ for Hurkyl's Recall sounds nuts oO
And yeah, I haven't shaved since my wedding on may 8th. Wife hasn't complained yet, so I'm going for the yeard unless she says no more I've noticed, and will warn you now, when I start thinking hard I play with my beard a lot. I didn't realize it until I started rewatching my own streams for note taking g lol
I've got a beard myself and I know that habit Just wanted to compliment you on that fullbeard, as I have a style most of the metalheads seem to wear (so no hair on the side of the face... you know?)... but I think that starts another topic that doesn't have much in common with Fae.
To say something on topic: I will give some feedback after testing with Scion... but that could take some time as the next Modern event is in two and a half weeks :X
Feel free to hit me up with thoughts on scion fair warning, it'll take a bit of adjusting. Scions require you to play more aggressively, but once you get the feel of em down, I think its worth the occasional situation of having nothing but a 1/1 for 3. Countering an electrolyze, or surprise buffing tokens to make blocks in your favor are insane, ntm the extra clock. And 3/3 or better mutavaults are pretty good ;). I've committed to the scion list, and if lacking testing, can always join my stream to see em in action
3 Mistbind Clique
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
2 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
1 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
4 Mutavault
4 River of Tears
4 Secluded Glen
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Swamp
1 Batterskull
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Deathmark
2 Counterquall
1 Dismember
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Spellskite
3 Thoughtseize was quite good although I though it would be bad. I like have 5 discards main deck and they have been stellar. Before the FNM I was going to play 3 IoK and 2 TS but changed it at the last min and it ended up to be the right call.
Not running snapcasters is not that bad after all. I used to run 2 of them, went down to 1 and now 0 and I don't really miss them. Our spells make value for themselves or they have the bonus of being on a body.
Chalice of the Void is simply a great choice in the SB. Has won me games against a ton of MUs and I wouldn't even consider dropping it ever, especially with the rise of Burn. I board it in against Burn, sometimes zoo (depending on the variant), 8rack, any form of infect, UR delver and sometimes storm.
I can't see why anyone would ever run Negate over Countersquall in this deck with such a consistent mana base and I would really love if someone who is running them to justify the choice. Countersquall dealing 2 damage is highly relevant.
For the future, based on the discussion which is going on, I will drop 2 swords and one Vendillion Clique to try out 3 Scions again and see how I feel about em. They all replace 3 drops anyway so it is worth a try.
Briangrp grats for your results. I watched some of your videos and I have a hard time understanding the lack of counters in favor of so many removals. It obviously works, but I have yet to be convinced that it will work in a very large tournament. There are so many threats that are non creatures and IoK or spellstutter can't hit. I know that it has already been discussed to an extent, but would you run so many removals in a GP for example?
PS: Yeah beards and Fae! Go my Bearded fae brethren
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
EDIT: *It is almost identical, I ran Lilianas over the Swords and Doom blades over Throats.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678First off, great job on doing well with your Faerie List. I've been meaning to watch you stream, but I keep getting busy. On that note, I went to watch one of your recordings, and just to make you aware there are parts that are getting censored (probably due to any music you may be playing). So if you are saying anything during portions of some of your video, no one can hear it.
Anyway I have a few questions to ask about a few cards choices you have in your list, and forgive me if you've already answered for some of these:
Absence of Pack Rat:
I clearly can't say not running the Rat is wrong sicne you've been doing well, but what made you decide to not include them in your list? With the exception of Rats I run a Faerie list that has a creature base identical to your own, so I understand it can feel awkward to have them in hand with say a Scion. But then you realize that it isn't a Scion, rather another Rat your opponent can't deal with, and suddenly you're having a hay day lol.
All the removal 1-ofs (Far//Away, Go for the Throat, Slaughter Pact, Vendetta):
First off, why so many one ofs? When you have this many singletons for removal I feel like your deck would be so much better running some Snapcaster Mages. Do you find having such a large number of removal spells is better than say running counter spells such as Remand or Mana Leak? Speaking of which....
Low number of counterspells (Only 7? Really?):
Between Cryptic Command and Spellstutter Sprite you only have 7 counterspells in the deck. Have you ever felt like you wanted more in your list (and maybe didn't know what to cut for them)? I know I feel my list would be a lot worse off if I took out all my Remands and my fourth Cryptic.
Dem Sorcery Speed Spells (Lilianna of the Veil & Batterskull):
So first off I am wondering how well both of these have fared for you basically on their own. Then I am wondering how they work with the rest of your deck. Lilianna is a list without flashback spells, or Snapcaster seems like a really awkward sorcery speed sac effect that won't get us much value out of +1-ing. And Batterskull has super negative synergy with Scion of Oona. Yes you can equip the Scion, but that'll be it, everything else has Shroud.
That's about all I can think to ask about for now, again, good job on doing so well
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
with less maindeck countermagic, it makes tapping out for things like lili and bskull alot less scary, and the raw power of those cards are worth it, imo. between discard, spellstutters, and kill spells, early games are usually full anyways even without remands/leaks. and those of you saying there are tons of scary non creature threats out there you need to counter....i'd like to know what meta's your playing in, 'cause in a pod/bgx/twin meta like mtgo is, my removal is all live 90% of the time. and generally easier to resolve than fighting counter wars over the creature itself. and if one sneaks through, that counterspell in your hand is useless.
Here is what my meta usually looks like:
There's always someone on Jeskai Control (I'm using the Khan names damn it!)
There's always 1-2 people playing RG Tron
Never played without someone on Affinity
Always at least 2-4 Pod players
Rest of the room is on a mix of BGx decks, with most of them being Jund.
We'll occasionally have a random brew, or Tier 2 list, but that is what my meta looks like.
Anyway...
Are there any cards in Khans you think would add to your deck? I've heard some people talk about Dig Through Time and honestly, it seems like it would be best in decks that are running Pack Rat or Lilianna as they let you fill up your graveyard and then Delve it for value.
Here is the list I have been running
4 Mutavault
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Secluded Glen
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Temple of Deceit
2 River of Tears
1 Pendelhaven
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Scion of Oona
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Mistbind Clique
3 Pack Rat
2 Vendilion Clique
Other Cards (18)
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cryptic Command
4 Remand
3 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Smother
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Just in your opinion, what would you do with my list? I want to try adding more consistency by putting in Serum Visions, but I also like how tempo oriented my current list can be. I can Remand a huge threat, then Vendilion Clique it away on the next turn. I am able to turn Pack Rat into a threat that just dominates my opponents and makes every draw live. Tamiyo has honestly done great work for me against Tron lists, where if I can keep them off their tutor effects it helps me lock down a Tron land which really slows them down. But at the same time, I can say I haven't had as much success with my list as you have had with yours. It could all be a meta issue, but I feel that using that excuse is just a bit of a cop-out.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
G2 I boarded in: Chalice of the Void, 2x Countersquall, 2x Hurkyl's Recail. Out: 1x Disfigure, 2x Dismember, 1x Vendilion Clique, 1x Cryptic Command
I kept a 2 lander with 3 SSS which I basically rode to victory. They kept countering and attacking while I countered the rest of his stuff. Countersquall was amazing and helped me win the race after he resolved Rack. He discarded my Chalice T1 unfortunately.
G3 I went T2 Chalice into BB. At some point he played the bridge which I recalled into counter.
Overall for the MU (cause I have played with that friend a couple of times) I would say: SSS is great, try to keep manlands cause they are the threat that sticks, and always keep mana for countering the bridge. Ensnaring bridge G1 is autoloss. The MU is not amazing but with the right timings it can be great. Counter their TS or IoK if you have something to protect in your hand, otherwise try to keep it (as long as it is possible to keep something in your hand against 8rack)for larger threats like lili, bridge and rack (in that order).
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
- There might be some small value to Recall if there is a lot of blue tron in your meta, they tend to run mana rocks (for color fixing) and more artifacts in general. Being able to bounce a Platinum Angel to swing for lethal is huge (bigger than cryptic because its 2 mana which means we can do more countering after or more easily thoughtseize before casting). If Tezzeret becomes a thing from GP Kobe its useful there too, it resets all their animated Tezz artifacts.
@Dig Through Time I still think this will work just fine in faeries. There are tons of great targets to pull between the different style's of decks :
Time Warp
Sword of Feast and Famine
Batterskull
Cryptic Command
Mistbind Clique
Snapcaster Mage
Vedalken Shackles
about half of those cards can easily time walk your opponent (one literally does!), and have appeared in different lists across whatever time. The instant speed is right up our alley and it shouldn't be that hard to fill a graveyard by turn 5-6 between :
Discard (for those that run it)
Liliana (+1 is feed)
Pack Rat (pitch for feed)
Kill Spells
Probably 1 fetch land if you run it (unless you run 7+ then likely 2 fetches)
Counterspells (for those who run it)
creatures that died to bolts (SSS Im lookin at you)
Other than lists that run Snapcaster Mage we don't use our graveyard for anything else (random Raven's Crimes aside), this card also lets us definently run Grafdigger's Cage over Relic of Progenitus since this is just another outlet to shrink Goyfs (not reliably, but we shouldn't "need" that reliaby... just a bonus). Living End has never been a problem for us anyway.. Cascade, sure, Living End, resp SSS... oh dead on the stack? Still countered
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Scion of Oona
3 Mistbind Clique
Enchantments
4 Bitterblossom
Instants
2 Spell Snare
1 Agony Warp
1 Smother
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
4 Rune Snag
4 Cryptic Command
4 Thoughtseize
Lands
2 Creeping Tarpit
4 Mutavault
4 Secluded Glenn
4 River of Tears
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Pendelhaven
4 Island
1 Swamp
Thoughts?
I'm not a fan of Rune Snag. While it is better than Mana Leak in the late game, it is worse than it in the early-mid game when it matters. Other than that your list seems good.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Agreed on these points here, there are enough decks playing discard and/or Gitaxian Probe that Rune Snag or Mana Leak seem bad right now. I would rather have Remand just for the sake of drawing a card off of it.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact