As suggested earlier in this thread, I've been playing with 4 Serum Visions with 23 lands and I like it a lot. Also dropped a discard and a Spell Snare to the sideboard to make room.
I've been able to scry away so many cards that would have been pretty terrible to draw or search for specific answers.
I also feel like cutting lands in favour of more draw might be the way to go. The deck floods so often in the lategame it isn't even funny. Serum Visions and less lands would prevent that issue.
What does everyone here think of Murderous Cut? Since this is the only black deck in Modern that wants removal, has too much lifeloss to play dismember, and doesn't run Bob, I think that it might fit here.
You can easily play dismember in Fae without a problem.. but leaving that aside I think it would be a one-off at max. simply because delve is "expensive" and it won't work early in a game
What does everyone here think of Murderous Cut? Since this is the only black deck in Modern that wants removal, has too much lifeloss to play dismember, and doesn't run Bob, I think that it might fit here.
On the plus side, it empties some cards from our grave which potentially shrinks 'goyf, and hits anything. On the downside there's the Snapcaster asynergy, and it will be hard to play in early turns. Also, what do you cut for it? I think five spot removal is right for us. I play 2x Dismember and 2x Disfigure (which can be Peppersmoke or Slip) with very much in mind bolting the dork T1. Then I play a GftT (which can be Doomblade or Smother) with in mind removing something of any size.
Net, I don't think it fits. Caveat: I haven't tried it.
@vonklaude: Your points are valid, but you are missing the main reason for the colourfix: Immunity to Blood Moon. The real question might be: Is Blood Moon dangerous enough to pay the life for your manabase or simply try to dodge it. I would say try to dodge it, as you mostly will be able to counter it OR still be able to win with some board presence (and a normal Island) but I think we should at least find an optimal Blood Moon save Manabase to really judge it.
The Immunity to Blood Moon would be the point that invalidates Sunken Ruins, as it would be a mountain as well.
One might cut say 1x Secluded Glen, 2x River of Tears, and 1x Sunken Ruins to that ends. Not playing any Watery Grave. Any Delta that comes into play after the Moon lands is still a Mountain. But the plan might help. Something like -
One might cut say 1x Secluded Glen, 2x River of Tears, and 1x Sunken Ruins to that ends. Not playing any Watery Grave. Any Delta that comes into play after the Moon lands is still a Mountain. But the plan might help. Something like -
Albeit I think this is slightly worse at producing UUU in T4. Perhaps?
I feel that the mana base you provided isn't too bad. I feel an argument can be made however for a different mana base, based on whether people want to run Vedalken Shackles or not
I don't think you'll need more than 6 Islands for Shackles with Fetches in the deck (giving you 10 lands to draw that can be Islands) as most things you'll be taking aren't super big. I haven;t played with Shackles at all, so my numbers could be completely off though. IF you feel you need more Islands I would honestly start by cutting a Tar Pit for every other Watery Grave you want, then other stuff for more Islands. Additionally, with a manabase that has more Islands and Swamps, Drowned Catacombs can just be strictly better than Secluded Glen, since it can come into play untapped with the same frequency, but without giving our opponents information on cards in our hand in order to use it the turn we play it.
I don't think you'll need more than 6 Islands for Shackles with Fetches in the deck (giving you 10 lands to draw that can be Islands) as most things you'll be taking aren't super big. I haven;t played with Shackles at all, so my numbers could be completely off though. IF you feel you need more Islands I would honestly start by cutting a Tar Pit for every other Watery Grave you want, then other stuff for more Islands. Additionally, with a manabase that has more Islands and Swamps, Drowned Catacombs can just be strictly better than Secluded Glen, since it can come into play untapped with the same frequency, but without giving our opponents information on cards in our hand in order to use it the turn we play it.
I'm extremely skeptical of those numbers. I can't imagine being able to reliably steal a creature with power greater than about 2 with access to so few islands. On the play you'll be 25% to have fewer than 3 islands in play by turn 5, assuming that you always fetch for islands. Given the number of 3-4 power creatures that we would want to be stealing in the format, I can't support running so few in a list planning to make use of shackles.
As I said, I don't play with Shackles, so my numbers are probably way off lol. I was just trying to throw some thought out there for what a Shackles mana base using fetches might look like
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
As I said, I don't play with Shackles, so my numbers are probably way off lol. I was just trying to throw some thought out there for what a Shackles mana base using fetches might look like
A literal boatload of islands.
Something like 10 strict islands (not fetch) would make it consistent you can steal what you need.
Crazy idea...what do we think of Quiet Contemplation as a card in the 75? I actually dont know how to view the card fully yet, but it definitely has potential to me
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I'm extremely skeptical of those numbers. I can't imagine being able to reliably steal a creature with power greater than about 2 with access to so few islands. On the play you'll be 25% to have fewer than 3 islands in play by turn 5, assuming that you always fetch for islands. Given the number of 3-4 power creatures that we would want to be stealing in the format, I can't support running so few in a list planning to make use of shackles.
Just to add that my proposed list wasn't aimed at supporting Shackles. If I did want to support Shackles I might suggest -
Producing 16 B (14 untapped), 19 U (17 untapped); and with 12 islands. Although I really see Shackles synergising best in a three-colour deck, so that all those harmlands become doubly justified. We've already seen lists for BUG Shackles and I see no reason why Esper Shackles wouldn't also look quite feasible.
As suggested earlier in this thread, I've been playing with 4 Serum Visions with 23 lands and I like it a lot. Also dropped a discard and a Spell Snare to the sideboard to make room.
I've been able to scry away so many cards that would have been pretty terrible to draw or search for specific answers.
I also feel like cutting lands in favour of more draw might be the way to go. The deck floods so often in the lategame it isn't even funny. Serum Visions and less lands would prevent that issue.
I agree with this statement, and also want to scold myself for not having thought of this sooner. I play 2 other decks in modern, both using visions.
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There is no reason being friendly and being competitive can't be synonymous.
Thats what Im testing right now for a Shackles base... Drowned Catacombs were more of a test than anything else. Likely worth it to trade Catacombs for Darkslick, Glens, or River of Tears.
Has anyone considered playing a Logic Knot somewhere in the deck? It looks like a good fit on paper, and with the fetchlands sliding into the decks, it could be a sweet turn 2 or 3 counterspell. I think it'd catch quite a few people off guard. Some of these builds have a flex slot or two, it might be worth a shot to try.
Countermagic is the smell before rain, the sun on the horizon and the chocolate chips in my mint chocolate chip ice cream. It's the first time I saw a woman naked and the first time I smelled perfume. It's that feeling you get when you know you're right.
But most of all; it's the feeling of playing Magic
Has anyone considered playing a Logic Knot somewhere in the deck? It looks like a good fit on paper, and with the fetchlands sliding into the decks, it could be a sweet turn 2 or 3 counterspell. I think it'd catch quite a few people off guard. Some of these builds have a flex slot or two, it might be worth a shot to try.
I see it as a sideboard card mostly, Delving out your yard in a game 1 against blue and getting it Spell Snared is pretty bad. In matchups where we need more counters (Tron??, IDK) you would think it could be good... Tron generates a ton of mana already though.
Against BGx it might be alright to just be able to add more counters to the deck.
Has anyone considered playing a Logic Knot somewhere in the deck? It looks like a good fit on paper, and with the fetchlands sliding into the decks, it could be a sweet turn 2 or 3 counterspell. I think it'd catch quite a few people off guard. Some of these builds have a flex slot or two, it might be worth a shot to try.
I see it as a sideboard card mostly, Delving out your yard in a game 1 against blue and getting it Spell Snared is pretty bad. In matchups where we need more counters (Tron??, IDK) you would think it could be good... Tron generates a ton of mana already though.
I bet you don't cast Logic Knot with X being 0. X is calculated to the casting cost, so Snare is really bad card against Logic Knot.
For example, if you set X = 3, then Logic Knot CMC would be 5, not 2.
I don't like Logic Knot since if you ever have more than 1 it can just be strictly worse than Condescend.
Logic Knot can really catch someone by surprise if you only have UU open. If they try to play around Mana Leak, you can easily exile 4 cards and catch them off guard. But the problem with Logic Knot is two-fold.
1. The more you use Logic Knot, the worse it is. You may exile 5 cards in your graveyard to counter a spell, but now you have only 3 cards less, which makes the next Knot a more color restrictive Mana Leak
2. Early game this cards can just be a worse Condescend. The argument can be made that the extra U you have to put into casting Knot is made up for with the fact that you can exile cards in your graveyard, but what are the chances you have a card there to use for say turn 2? Turn 3? At least Condescend can always be a live counter once you hit 2 mana. And the fact that Condescend scry's should not be overlooked.
If you want an X mana counterspell, I think Condescend is your best bet.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I assume all the same factors can be said about Dig through time? I was thinking that there was not enough delve fodder created by our general game progress and that normally it was too slow. But someone was saying that any blue midrange/control deck would be happy to test it, so I was thinking about it with displeasing results on the card's inclusion (Id like it if it werent 8 mana personally)
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I also feel like cutting lands in favour of more draw might be the way to go. The deck floods so often in the lategame it isn't even funny. Serum Visions and less lands would prevent that issue.
You can easily play dismember in Fae without a problem.. but leaving that aside I think it would be a one-off at max. simply because delve is "expensive" and it won't work early in a game
On the plus side, it empties some cards from our grave which potentially shrinks 'goyf, and hits anything. On the downside there's the Snapcaster asynergy, and it will be hard to play in early turns. Also, what do you cut for it? I think five spot removal is right for us. I play 2x Dismember and 2x Disfigure (which can be Peppersmoke or Slip) with very much in mind bolting the dork T1. Then I play a GftT (which can be Doomblade or Smother) with in mind removing something of any size.
Net, I don't think it fits. Caveat: I haven't tried it.
One might cut say 1x Secluded Glen, 2x River of Tears, and 1x Sunken Ruins to that ends. Not playing any Watery Grave. Any Delta that comes into play after the Moon lands is still a Mountain. But the plan might help. Something like -
---------------
3x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Island
4x Mutavault
4x Polluted Delta
2x River of Tears
3x Secluded Glen
1x Swamp
1x Tectonic Edge
Albeit I think this is slightly worse at producing UUU in T4. Perhaps?
I feel that the mana base you provided isn't too bad. I feel an argument can be made however for a different mana base, based on whether people want to run Vedalken Shackles or not
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Mutavault
4x Polluted Delta
3x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Watery Grave
1x Tectonic Edge
4x Island
1x Swamp
2x Drowned Catacomb
I don't think you'll need more than 6 Islands for Shackles with Fetches in the deck (giving you 10 lands to draw that can be Islands) as most things you'll be taking aren't super big. I haven;t played with Shackles at all, so my numbers could be completely off though. IF you feel you need more Islands I would honestly start by cutting a Tar Pit for every other Watery Grave you want, then other stuff for more Islands. Additionally, with a manabase that has more Islands and Swamps, Drowned Catacombs can just be strictly better than Secluded Glen, since it can come into play untapped with the same frequency, but without giving our opponents information on cards in our hand in order to use it the turn we play it.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I'm extremely skeptical of those numbers. I can't imagine being able to reliably steal a creature with power greater than about 2 with access to so few islands. On the play you'll be 25% to have fewer than 3 islands in play by turn 5, assuming that you always fetch for islands. Given the number of 3-4 power creatures that we would want to be stealing in the format, I can't support running so few in a list planning to make use of shackles.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
A literal boatload of islands.
Something like 10 strict islands (not fetch) would make it consistent you can steal what you need.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Still haven't gotten around to my MI test... maybe soon.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
Just to add that my proposed list wasn't aimed at supporting Shackles. If I did want to support Shackles I might suggest -
--------
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Darkslick Shores
5 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
2 Secluded Glen
2 Swamp
3 Watery Grave
Producing 16 B (14 untapped), 19 U (17 untapped); and with 12 islands. Although I really see Shackles synergising best in a three-colour deck, so that all those harmlands become doubly justified. We've already seen lists for BUG Shackles and I see no reason why Esper Shackles wouldn't also look quite feasible.
2 Drowned Catacomb
4 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mutavault
1 Swamp
6 Island
Thats what Im testing right now for a Shackles base... Drowned Catacombs were more of a test than anything else. Likely worth it to trade Catacombs for Darkslick, Glens, or River of Tears.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
I see it as a sideboard card mostly, Delving out your yard in a game 1 against blue and getting it Spell Snared is pretty bad. In matchups where we need more counters (Tron??, IDK) you would think it could be good... Tron generates a ton of mana already though.
Against BGx it might be alright to just be able to add more counters to the deck.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
I bet you don't cast Logic Knot with X being 0. X is calculated to the casting cost, so Snare is really bad card against Logic Knot.
For example, if you set X = 3, then Logic Knot CMC would be 5, not 2.
Logic Knot can really catch someone by surprise if you only have UU open. If they try to play around Mana Leak, you can easily exile 4 cards and catch them off guard. But the problem with Logic Knot is two-fold.
1. The more you use Logic Knot, the worse it is. You may exile 5 cards in your graveyard to counter a spell, but now you have only 3 cards less, which makes the next Knot a more color restrictive Mana Leak
2. Early game this cards can just be a worse Condescend. The argument can be made that the extra U you have to put into casting Knot is made up for with the fact that you can exile cards in your graveyard, but what are the chances you have a card there to use for say turn 2? Turn 3? At least Condescend can always be a live counter once you hit 2 mana. And the fact that Condescend scry's should not be overlooked.
If you want an X mana counterspell, I think Condescend is your best bet.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Cryptic Command
4 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Shadow of Doubt (currently Testing)
23 Land
4 Polluted Delta
6 Island
2 Watery Grave
3 Mutavault
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Pendelhaven
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Batterskull
4 Bitterblossom
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Serum Visions
7 Kill Spells
1 Dismember
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Doom Blade
3 Disfigure