This is what I'm going to try next, before deciding if it isn't just better running Grixis.
Tarmogoyf was extremely underwhelming in too many matches. If we have to cast a cc2 threat, I found Young Pyromancer doing the job better at racing the opponent on an empty field AND it's better when we have to be on the defensive, thanks to the elemental tokens. The fact that Hexdrinker trades with Goblin Guide is definitely a compensation in the mu, and running a good amount of counterspells turns the matchup favorable anyway.
Went 2-2 last night for modern. Smashed Tron and Spirits, while loosing a close game to Phoenix and a not-so-close game to UW. Delivers did a lot of swinging for 1 and had lots of land issues. Gonna chalk it up to variance but will keep looking for more improvements.
Match 1 - Phoenix - 1/2 Loss:
- We basically both played with our knees cut off game one. He mulled to five, I kept a one lander with delver and shoals. Didn't find a second land until turn 2 and he turned over about 1/2 his deck and naturally drew 2 Phoenixes. I got that game eventually. Game 2 he had a nutty T2 double Phoenix start, which is always hard to follow on a Tempo plan. Game three, he shuffled in his ENTIRE sideboard by accident and beat me off of cards he never meant to side in. Karanos + Jace midrange strat seems surprisingly effective against me even though he never meant to side them in ahha.
Match 2 - Tron - 2/1 Win:
- This basically ended how I drew it up. Lose game one. Side in Commandeers. Win effortlessly games 2 and 3 by stealing Karns and Ugin's. GGWP OP. Why does this deck exist?
Match 3 - Spirits - 2/0 Win:
Had a nutty T1 with fetch, double bauble, delver. I ensure it flips by only cracking a single bauble, finding a spell on top of my deck, and then stacking triggers like Delver > Bauble. Flip delver, hold priority on the bauble draw trigger, crack the second bauble to check the top. Didn't like the card, so I Thoughtscoured it away. Drew a better card after. Played a fetch and a Mandrills T2 and beat for 3. He effectively lost by T2. Game two he hinged on Thalia to take the game but I shoaled it and he just died.
Match 4 - UW Control - 1/2 Loss:
New Teferi resolved on T3 and I just couldn't deal with it after it's on the table. Chalk that one up on the "MUST COUNTER OR DIE" list, boys. We can't beat it. Game 2 I smashed him with 3 delvers and enough countermagic to make blue mages squeal, game ended pretty quickly. Game 3 was weird, but he ended landing a very timely Settle the Wreckage with my hand full of shoals and simic charms. Womp Womp. He took over the game after that.
Pretty solid stuff. I can honestly say that the deck is in a pretty good place right now. I had land issues and Delver flipping issues all night, which really comes down to a bit of deck construction and luck. I've had lots of success before, so I'm chalking tonight up to variance in those departments.
Assessing current cards for new ones: Mandrills carried me through some aggro matches, but suffered against control; where Mongoose would've lacked in aggro matches but won me the game against control. I can actually say that Force of Negation is just straight better than Stubborn Denial tho, it just allows us to function on less and do exactly what we're designed to do. Can't wait for that card. Simic Charm and Remand were 50/50 similar to Mongoose and Mandrills.
I played lots of Snap Delver Thing (Mono Blue Delver) with 4 Disrupting Shoal maindeck + 3 Commandeer postboard. If you want to play more than four pitch counterspells, I definitely suggest to implement 4 Shoals or 4 Force of Negation + Commandeer instead of a sum of the first two cards. Cause you can always pitch additional copies of the first two to Commandeer.
I played lots of Snap Delver Thing (Mono Blue Delver) with 4 Disrupting Shoal maindeck + 3 Commandeer postboard. If you want to play more than four pitch counterspells, I definitely suggest to implement 4 Shoals or 4 Force of Negation + Commandeer instead of a sum of the first two cards. Cause you can always pitch additional copies of the first two to Commandeer.
Oh yeah, that'll be the the plan for sure. And that's exactly what I'm on right now as far as shoals and commandeers. The current sideboard plan Tron (only place where Commandeer comes in) is -4 Snag -4 Shoal +2 Pierce +1 Unravel +1 Dismember +1 Clique +3 Commandeer. So yeah, nothing much will change except I'll be adopting FoN in place of Denial, which effectively do the same thing in that matchup.
Agreed that little Teferi is busted. The big one is hard enough, but this new one might just be more important for us to keep off the table. Force should help with that.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Hi, I don't post on here very often but observe from the sidelines but question: Why is everyone getting so pumped for 'Force of Negation' for our deck? All our opponent has to do is cast a kill spell on our turn and we can no longer use the exile mode of Force. Our deck needs for us to be able counter at low mana cost (0-1) to keep our creatures alive. Force is basically just a "Cancel" on our turn.
Hi, I don't post on here very often but observe from the sidelines but question: Why is everyone getting so pumped for 'Force of Negation' for our deck? All our opponent has to do is cast a kill spell on our turn and we can no longer use the exile mode of Force. Our deck needs for us to be able counter at low mana cost (0-1) to keep our creatures alive. Force is basically just a "Cancel" on our turn.
FoN is not for kill spell (even if it's still capable of counter them), but for opponents' non creature threats (PW or some other menace). At least this is my opinion. Hence I'm playing a shoal FoN split (3-2) and a leak stubborn split (3-2 again) for any other purpose.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Honestly, I rarely used a Shoal to counter a Bolt or a Path directed to my creatures. Shoal was always meant for Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings, Cranial Plating, Goblin Guide, Slippery Boogle and the likes of them. So that’s definitely not the problem with Force. The issue is the inability to hit creatures.
Hi, I don't post on here very often but observe from the sidelines but question: Why is everyone getting so pumped for 'Force of Negation' for our deck? All our opponent has to do is cast a kill spell on our turn and we can no longer use the exile mode of Force. Our deck needs for us to be able counter at low mana cost (0-1) to keep our creatures alive. Force is basically just a "Cancel" on our turn.
Simply put, it's the thing that gives our deck a chance.
We're a tempo deck in a format without tempo tools. Our defining archetype characteristic is being proactive and reactive AT THE SAME TIME, and cards that support that type of strategy do not currently exist in modern, with the exception of very few cards. Force of Negation makes this happen and fits the criteria. That's why we're pumped.
Honestly, I rarely used a Shoal to counter a Bolt or a Path directed to my creatures. Shoal was always meant for Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings, Cranial Plating, Goblin Guide, Slippery Boogle and the likes of them. So that’s definitely not the problem with Force. The issue is the inability to hit creatures.
Not to be "that guy", but I think we approach this archetype in vastly different ways. I'll agree to disagree here. I use my shoals to protect my threats used to kill the opponent or speedbump them behind my tempo. I just can't get behind the comment "I rarely used a Shoal to counter a Bolt or a Path directed to my creatures" cuz that's literally part of the spells role in the deck.
Most commonly shoaled cards, not close:
- AEther Vial
- Noble Hirarch
- Lightning Bolt
- Fatal Push
- PTE
Looking at both Hooting Mandrils and Hexdrinker they are both bad in multiples. It would probably be best to try and and a 2-2 or a 2-1 split. That would also free some graveyard tension to run 1-2 Magmatic Sinkhole in the main/side.
Honestly, I rarely used a Shoal to counter a Bolt or a Path directed to my creatures. Shoal was always meant for Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings, Cranial Plating, Goblin Guide, Slippery Boogle and the likes of them. So that’s definitely not the problem with Force. The issue is the inability to hit creatures.
Not to be "that guy", but I think we approach this archetype in vastly different ways. I'll agree to disagree here. I use my shoals to protect my threats used to kill the opponent or speedbump them behind my tempo. I just can't get behind the comment "I rarely used a Shoal to counter a Bolt or a Path directed to my creatures" cuz that's literally part of the spells role in the deck.
Most commonly shoaled cards, not close:
- AEther Vial
- Noble Hirarch
- Lightning Bolt
- Fatal Push
- PTE
Everyone has its own approach. I'm not the bearer of truth, so it's fine.
That said, 99% of the time it's Stubborn Denial who has the "duty" of protecting our creatures. Disrupting Shoal, at least in my approach, is mostly used to stop the opponent from doing things. I mentioned some spells, there are also things such as Aether Vial (which you pointed out), combo pieces from opponents (examples: Baral, Chief of Compliance if we don't have Bolt, Faithless Looting from Dredge, and so on). Death's Shadow is definitely another juicy target. Against BGx I vastly prefer to hit a Thoughtseize that would strip our Mandrills rather than a Fatal Push on Tarmogoyf, just saying (and it comes out in g2).
Then, yeah, it's also used against removals. But it's pretty rare, in my experience, unless we're playing against some sort of UWx Control.
...........
Tolarian Community College just spoiled Magmatic Sinkhole
Magmatic SInkhole 5R
instant
Delve
Magmatic Sinkhole deals 5 damage to target creature or planeswalker.
I think our deck is too overtaxed with delve and graveyard matters cards already for this card to be effective.
It doesn't even let us point damage to players. Maybe it's a 1-2 of in Blue Moon strategies.
Tolarian Community College just spoiled Magmatic Sinkhole
Magmatic SInkhole 5R
instant
Delve
Magmatic Sinkhole deals 5 damage to target creature or planeswalker.
I think our deck is too overtaxed with delve and graveyard matters cards already for this card to be effective.
If Hexdrinker ends up being the way forward, and that's a big if, I think this card could replace the 1 of Dismember or Roast I've often run in the board. Hitting walkers is no joke, especially considering how much harder our control matchups have gotten in the last year, and especially considering the little Teferi, which wrecks us.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'm a little confused as to how/why Hexdrinker is good. It's great in an aggro plan as a 2/1 for 1 mana. But then, if i understand leveling correctly, we need to pump 3 more mana into it for it to become a 4/4 with protection from Fatal Push and Path to Exile. That would mean on turn 2 we would want to tap out to level it twice, and hope we're holding onto a Shoal or Force, with a pitchable card. Then turn 3 we tap 1 more mana and then it's swinging as a hard to remove 4/4... I guess this isn't too bad, but it seems like it really forces us to have Shoal and Force in our hands, and if they shoot off an instant in response to our leveling, then we need Shoal and probably a 1cmc blue spell - Force wouldn't even protect it here. I just feel like we'd be playing a very different deck if we wanted to rely on Hexdrinker.
Hexdrinker is definitely a card to consider. As well as the ever shroudy Nimble Mongoose.
Having a creature that we don't have waste our protection spells on got me thinking what our disruption shell should look like.
Another card that I think might be underrated is Delay. It doesn't draw us a card unlike Remand and isn't a hard counter like Mana Leak in the early game. But it does exactly what we want, we gain three turns to finish our opponent off. Another positive is that the spell is removed from the game, so the opponent can't gain advantage from it being in the graveyard via delve, flashback, and whatsoever.
By not getting an removal spell that we wished for (besides Magmatic Sinkhole, which has to be tested), I think I'll try a full set of Vapor Snag and Rending Volley or Combust split between MB and SB. Creature decks like Humans and Spirits give me the most trouble, which are exactly these colors. Bouncing a Gurmag Angler with Snag feels great too.
This is just my two cents after a midly disappointing spoiler season without Wasteland equivalent (which probably would have made Modern a disaster )
I'm a little confused as to how/why Hexdrinker is good. It's great in an aggro plan as a 2/1 for 1 mana. But then, if i understand leveling correctly, we need to pump 3 more mana into it for it to become a 4/4 with protection from Fatal Push and Path to Exile. That would mean on turn 2 we would want to tap out to level it twice, and hope we're holding onto a Shoal or Force, with a pitchable card. Then turn 3 we tap 1 more mana and then it's swinging as a hard to remove 4/4... I guess this isn't too bad, but it seems like it really forces us to have Shoal and Force in our hands, and if they shoot off an instant in response to our leveling, then we need Shoal and probably a 1cmc blue spell - Force wouldn't even protect it here. I just feel like we'd be playing a very different deck if we wanted to rely on Hexdrinker.
Playing Hexdrinker and trying to level him up right away probably won't be the best use of your Mana in most cases. It will probably be more of 1 Mana here and there to get him to lvl 2. He puts a lot of pressure on your opponent to not tap out gaining us tempo along with being a t1 threat. Compared to Mandrils coming down turn 2-3.
While I don't think this completely replaces mandrils a split between the two complement each other by not letting us not have awkward hands with multiples of each.
You just play normally with Hexdrinker and be opportunistic with your chances to level up.
I'm a little confused as to how/why Hexdrinker is good. It's great in an aggro plan as a 2/1 for 1 mana. But then, if i understand leveling correctly, we need to pump 3 more mana into it for it to become a 4/4 with protection from Fatal Push and Path to Exile. That would mean on turn 2 we would want to tap out to level it twice, and hope we're holding onto a Shoal or Force, with a pitchable card. Then turn 3 we tap 1 more mana and then it's swinging as a hard to remove 4/4... I guess this isn't too bad, but it seems like it really forces us to have Shoal and Force in our hands, and if they shoot off an instant in response to our leveling, then we need Shoal and probably a 1cmc blue spell - Force wouldn't even protect it here. I just feel like we'd be playing a very different deck if we wanted to rely on Hexdrinker.
Why, in the name of the Holy Grail, would you put mana on it on turn two?
If you play it on turn one, it's a 2/1 that is only worse than Delver of Secrets (IF it flips the turn after) against Combo of the sort. It trades with Goblin Guide against Burn. It's just an undercosted beater.
When you topdeck it on an empty board, it's basically half a Progenitus.
It's as simple as it gets.
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4x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest
2x Island
3x Spirebluff Canal
2x Steam Vents
2x Breeding Pool
Creatures (15)
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Hexdrinker
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Hooting Mandrills
4x Opt
4x Thought Scour
2x Faithless Looting
4x Spell Pierce
3x Deprive
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Flame Slash
2x Vapor Snag
1x Abrade
3x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Roast
2x Entrancing Melody
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Abrade
1x Disdainful Stroke
3x Force of Negation
This is what I'm going to try next, before deciding if it isn't just better running Grixis.
Tarmogoyf was extremely underwhelming in too many matches. If we have to cast a cc2 threat, I found Young Pyromancer doing the job better at racing the opponent on an empty field AND it's better when we have to be on the defensive, thanks to the elemental tokens. The fact that Hexdrinker trades with Goblin Guide is definitely a compensation in the mu, and running a good amount of counterspells turns the matchup favorable anyway.
Went 2-2 last night for modern. Smashed Tron and Spirits, while loosing a close game to Phoenix and a not-so-close game to UW. Delivers did a lot of swinging for 1 and had lots of land issues. Gonna chalk it up to variance but will keep looking for more improvements.
Match 1 - Phoenix - 1/2 Loss:
- We basically both played with our knees cut off game one. He mulled to five, I kept a one lander with delver and shoals. Didn't find a second land until turn 2 and he turned over about 1/2 his deck and naturally drew 2 Phoenixes. I got that game eventually. Game 2 he had a nutty T2 double Phoenix start, which is always hard to follow on a Tempo plan. Game three, he shuffled in his ENTIRE sideboard by accident and beat me off of cards he never meant to side in. Karanos + Jace midrange strat seems surprisingly effective against me even though he never meant to side them in ahha.
Match 2 - Tron - 2/1 Win:
- This basically ended how I drew it up. Lose game one. Side in Commandeers. Win effortlessly games 2 and 3 by stealing Karns and Ugin's. GGWP OP. Why does this deck exist?
Match 3 - Spirits - 2/0 Win:
Had a nutty T1 with fetch, double bauble, delver. I ensure it flips by only cracking a single bauble, finding a spell on top of my deck, and then stacking triggers like Delver > Bauble. Flip delver, hold priority on the bauble draw trigger, crack the second bauble to check the top. Didn't like the card, so I Thoughtscoured it away. Drew a better card after. Played a fetch and a Mandrills T2 and beat for 3. He effectively lost by T2. Game two he hinged on Thalia to take the game but I shoaled it and he just died.
Match 4 - UW Control - 1/2 Loss:
New Teferi resolved on T3 and I just couldn't deal with it after it's on the table. Chalk that one up on the "MUST COUNTER OR DIE" list, boys. We can't beat it. Game 2 I smashed him with 3 delvers and enough countermagic to make blue mages squeal, game ended pretty quickly. Game 3 was weird, but he ended landing a very timely Settle the Wreckage with my hand full of shoals and simic charms. Womp Womp. He took over the game after that.
Pretty solid stuff. I can honestly say that the deck is in a pretty good place right now. I had land issues and Delver flipping issues all night, which really comes down to a bit of deck construction and luck. I've had lots of success before, so I'm chalking tonight up to variance in those departments.
Assessing current cards for new ones: Mandrills carried me through some aggro matches, but suffered against control; where Mongoose would've lacked in aggro matches but won me the game against control. I can actually say that Force of Negation is just straight better than Stubborn Denial tho, it just allows us to function on less and do exactly what we're designed to do. Can't wait for that card. Simic Charm and Remand were 50/50 similar to Mongoose and Mandrills.
Decklist for reference... https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1289947#paper
Oh yeah, that'll be the the plan for sure. And that's exactly what I'm on right now as far as shoals and commandeers. The current sideboard plan Tron (only place where Commandeer comes in) is -4 Snag -4 Shoal +2 Pierce +1 Unravel +1 Dismember +1 Clique +3 Commandeer. So yeah, nothing much will change except I'll be adopting FoN in place of Denial, which effectively do the same thing in that matchup.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
FoN is not for kill spell (even if it's still capable of counter them), but for opponents' non creature threats (PW or some other menace). At least this is my opinion. Hence I'm playing a shoal FoN split (3-2) and a leak stubborn split (3-2 again) for any other purpose.
Modern:
Magmatic SInkhole 5R
instant
Delve
Magmatic Sinkhole deals 5 damage to target creature or planeswalker.
I think our deck is too overtaxed with delve and graveyard matters cards already for this card to be effective.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Simply put, it's the thing that gives our deck a chance.
We're a tempo deck in a format without tempo tools. Our defining archetype characteristic is being proactive and reactive AT THE SAME TIME, and cards that support that type of strategy do not currently exist in modern, with the exception of very few cards. Force of Negation makes this happen and fits the criteria. That's why we're pumped.
Not to be "that guy", but I think we approach this archetype in vastly different ways. I'll agree to disagree here. I use my shoals to protect my threats used to kill the opponent or speedbump them behind my tempo. I just can't get behind the comment "I rarely used a Shoal to counter a Bolt or a Path directed to my creatures" cuz that's literally part of the spells role in the deck.
Most commonly shoaled cards, not close:
- AEther Vial
- Noble Hirarch
- Lightning Bolt
- Fatal Push
- PTE
Everyone has its own approach. I'm not the bearer of truth, so it's fine.
That said, 99% of the time it's Stubborn Denial who has the "duty" of protecting our creatures. Disrupting Shoal, at least in my approach, is mostly used to stop the opponent from doing things. I mentioned some spells, there are also things such as Aether Vial (which you pointed out), combo pieces from opponents (examples: Baral, Chief of Compliance if we don't have Bolt, Faithless Looting from Dredge, and so on). Death's Shadow is definitely another juicy target. Against BGx I vastly prefer to hit a Thoughtseize that would strip our Mandrills rather than a Fatal Push on Tarmogoyf, just saying (and it comes out in g2).
Then, yeah, it's also used against removals. But it's pretty rare, in my experience, unless we're playing against some sort of UWx Control.
...........
It doesn't even let us point damage to players. Maybe it's a 1-2 of in Blue Moon strategies.
If Hexdrinker ends up being the way forward, and that's a big if, I think this card could replace the 1 of Dismember or Roast I've often run in the board. Hitting walkers is no joke, especially considering how much harder our control matchups have gotten in the last year, and especially considering the little Teferi, which wrecks us.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Having a creature that we don't have waste our protection spells on got me thinking what our disruption shell should look like.
Force of Negation will probably be an auto include. How many copies has to be debated. Disrupting Shoal might have its uses still, especially in a creature heavy meta.
What I'm having trouble with at the moment is figuring out the other counterspells. Every deck we play against has two drops that we definitely don't want on the board (Thing in the Ice, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Meddling Mage, Snapcaster Mage, Rest in Peace, Manamorphose, the list goes on...). Shouldn't Spell Snare be a four of MB? It is the definition of Tempo.
Another card that I think might be underrated is Delay. It doesn't draw us a card unlike Remand and isn't a hard counter like Mana Leak in the early game. But it does exactly what we want, we gain three turns to finish our opponent off. Another positive is that the spell is removed from the game, so the opponent can't gain advantage from it being in the graveyard via delve, flashback, and whatsoever.
By not getting an removal spell that we wished for (besides Magmatic Sinkhole, which has to be tested), I think I'll try a full set of Vapor Snag and Rending Volley or Combust split between MB and SB. Creature decks like Humans and Spirits give me the most trouble, which are exactly these colors. Bouncing a Gurmag Angler with Snag feels great too.
This is just my two cents after a midly disappointing spoiler season without Wasteland equivalent (which probably would have made Modern a disaster )
Playing Hexdrinker and trying to level him up right away probably won't be the best use of your Mana in most cases. It will probably be more of 1 Mana here and there to get him to lvl 2. He puts a lot of pressure on your opponent to not tap out gaining us tempo along with being a t1 threat. Compared to Mandrils coming down turn 2-3.
While I don't think this completely replaces mandrils a split between the two complement each other by not letting us not have awkward hands with multiples of each.
You just play normally with Hexdrinker and be opportunistic with your chances to level up.
Why, in the name of the Holy Grail, would you put mana on it on turn two?
If you play it on turn one, it's a 2/1 that is only worse than Delver of Secrets (IF it flips the turn after) against Combo of the sort. It trades with Goblin Guide against Burn. It's just an undercosted beater.
When you topdeck it on an empty board, it's basically half a Progenitus.
It's as simple as it gets.