I disagree, this card is much more consistent than shoal even if your deck can support shoal. Allowing you to pitch anything and not having to match the CMC to counter is a huge upside.
Sure force cannot counter creatures, but it is mostly to stop combo and removal that we would want a free counterspell.
Only for decks that cannot support Stubborn Denial
I intend to play both cards, Force of Negation offers lines of play that denial doesn't, they are different cards. Force allows you to tap out being aggressive and keep the combo under control.
I am excited about this, and I think it might be the missing part that makes modern rug delver a good deck in the right hands. Sure we would love a better cantrip and still miss nimble mongoose a lot, but for modern right now this is a better designed force of will in my opinion.
I'm looking at Chart a Course right now and wondering, as an enthusiastic caster of blue spells in cube, EDH, and Pauper, whether Fact or Fiction could replace Chart as a one-of card advantage piece. Four mana is a lot and it's useless in the fast matchups, but it pitches to Force there.
I think Force is going to be swell partially because it eases the careful deckbuilding constraints of Shoal. Now we still have to take into account spells to flip Delver and raw numbers of blue cards, but easing the cmc requirement, as well as having to play fewer blue cards overall, opens us up a lot.
Right now I'm thinking 4x Force and 2-3x Stubb, cutting Spell Pierce and playing removal in its place.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'm going to wait until we see what else there is for us in this set. All I know right now is that with Force of Negation, we'll need a little more creature removal, and we'll also have more room for nonblue spells in the main. I play 29 blue spells right now, and reading around, it sounds like people recommend 16 blue cards as an absolute minimum with Force of Will in Legacy, with 22 being a better number if you want more consistency. So let's say we do that, and we buy ourselves seven extra spots for nonblue cards. I mean, in comes the second Tarfire for sure, and probably 2-3 more right off the bat. So I've got no idea what we'll do, but I think it'll be better than the Shoal list . . .
. . . which I went 3-1 with tonight.
Round 1: 0-2 to GW Hatebears. Pilot said he hadn't played Modern in 2 years, and came in and Ghost Quarter / Leonin Arbitered me. I was not prepared at all.
Round 2: 2-1 against UR Thing. Won G3 on a mull to 5 and the opponent's T3 Blood Moon into my 2x Vents / Forest. I had 2 Goyfs out and beat face with them, Bolting for the W.
Round 3: 2-0 against UR Moon. Not particularly close. Opponent was scared of Goyf and 2-1ed himself to get rid of it twice, and I just Simic Charmed to save it after the second spell. Easy.
Round 4: 2-0 against Abzan. Finally beat this guy. Game 1, I had a T2 Mandrills, T3 Leak your Liliana, T4 Snapcaster-Leak your Goyf. Game 2 I had Vents, Pool, Misty, Island, Blood Moon, Serum Visions, and Mandrills. Played Vents and Pool to disguise the Moon a bit, planning to fetch Forest T3 and play the Island T4. Opponent played new Ashiok, though, turning off my fetch, so I just played the Island T3, cut myself off green, and Mooned him into the shadow realm. Eventually found a Delver, had an EE blow up his tiny Goyf. It was probably turn 10 before he found Swamp to Push the Delver, but by then I had Snapcaster ready with a Bolt in the yard and another in hand. Two attacks later and he was dunzo.
Ended up in 4th out of 9 because my round 1 opponent didn't win another game all night, but whatever. A 3-1 night felt great. I dodged GDS, 2x Dredge, and 5c Niv-Mizzit pile.
Shoal notes: the only things I Shoaled tonight were a Pyromancer's Ascension and a Lightning Bolt. No creatures. This is something I'm going to watch closely, because the noncreature clause on Force of Negation is real. But I suspect much of what we're countering are noncreatures anyway.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
And boy, if we get an actual removal spell like a 2cmc, unrestricted Roast . . . watch out.
The red removal in this set will most likely be the red “force” card like force of negation where it will require pitching a red card. I’m guessing something similar to Pyrokinesis though maybe dealing 5 damage to any target rather than 4 to only creatures.
Match 1 vs. Abzan Counters Combo(2-1)
Lost Game 1 because I didn't really know what I was playing against. Opponent combo'd off into infinite life, I scooped to sideboard.
Game 2 Blood Moon won.
Game 3 Was just about keeping his little creatures off the board, got off an Anger of the Gods, felt good.
Match2 vs. Red Prison(2-0)
Game 1 was a non game with Opponent having a Turn 0 Gemstone Caverns but then no other mana. Luckily I had creature fat and onboard quickly to end the game fast.
Game 2 I faced a Turn 2 Chalice on 1. Luckily I drew into my Engineered Explosives early and was able to take out Chalice along with 2 goblin tokens, them bolt his Legion Warboss and kept his board clean after that.
Match 3 vs Spirits (UW, G not confirmed) (0-2)
I sided in Blood Moons, Anger of the Gods, Destructive Revelry, Engineered Explosives, Dismember, and I think Hazoret?
Just didn't have enough to keep those Spirits off the board and Opponent had the upper hand the whole time. Spirits is just crazy with all their counterspells with legs. I'd love any advice people have on beating this deck.
I'm thinking about Pyroclasm for the sideboard, and I still want to test out a single copy of Lazotep Plating in the main to see how it plays generally.
First of all: I'm back on RUG train. I think I'll drop for now paths and nacatls for good old Blood Moon.
I want to make an experiment: since recently I saw that the most played graveyard hate is Surgical, I want to try traverse the ulvenwald sideboard. It may just be a fiasco, but I'm playing online for free so why don't try?
Shoal notes: the only things I Shoaled tonight were a Pyromancer's Ascension and a Lightning Bolt. No creatures. This is something I'm going to watch closely, because the noncreature clause on Force of Negation is real. But I suspect much of what we're countering are noncreatures anyway.
I'm doing it it too.
Being able to play more non blue cards such as baubles and/or Tarfires and/or Lootings (waiting for a new cantrip if it ever will be printed) would be a very good thing.
The other thing to take note of is how many times we shoal in our turn. A problem could be a removal on our goyf we committed for at end of our turn.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Yeah, I'd love to play Canadian Threshold in Modern, but I feel like Mandrills might just be better in this format? Stubborn Denial is an amazing card, and it would be less reliable if we swapped out Mandrills. Also Mongoose and Goyf would make us rely very heavily on our grave, which faces a lot of sideboard hate in the current meta.
Not sure about the Goose. My inclination is that it's just not big enough. Of course, we could run more removal and bounce effects to keep the ground clear.
Goose over Mandrills means we lose Stubborn Denial and Simic Charm. So we play Spell Pierce instead, and Vapor Snag or real removal to keep the ground clear?
And speaking of the new land, I'll probably play the UR one ad a 1-of over the second Steam Vents. Could also see cutting a fetch to play a second. But if we want Goose, we want all the early graveyard stuff.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I agree that Bauble is going to be good if Goose is playable. I think it's a big if at this point, and really depends on what we get for removal in this set.
I think running 4 Shoal 4 Force is too much, personally.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'm not so sure on Mongoose. He gets hurt by the random grave hate in the format worse than Mandrills and he doesn't turn on ferocious. Even his powered up state is only a 3/3 Shroud, which loses combat to about half of the threats on the ground.
He's worth testing for sure, but I'm not hopeful. On a personal not, the fact that you can't boost him with Simic Charm also makes a little sad inside.
I disagree, this card is much more consistent than shoal even if your deck can support shoal. Allowing you to pitch anything and not having to match the CMC to counter is a huge upside.
Sure force cannot counter creatures, but it is mostly to stop combo and removal that we would want a free counterspell.
I intend to play both cards, Force of Negation offers lines of play that denial doesn't, they are different cards. Force allows you to tap out being aggressive and keep the combo under control.
I am excited about this, and I think it might be the missing part that makes modern rug delver a good deck in the right hands. Sure we would love a better cantrip and still miss nimble mongoose a lot, but for modern right now this is a better designed force of will in my opinion.
I think Force is going to be swell partially because it eases the careful deckbuilding constraints of Shoal. Now we still have to take into account spells to flip Delver and raw numbers of blue cards, but easing the cmc requirement, as well as having to play fewer blue cards overall, opens us up a lot.
Right now I'm thinking 4x Force and 2-3x Stubb, cutting Spell Pierce and playing removal in its place.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'm going to wait until we see what else there is for us in this set. All I know right now is that with Force of Negation, we'll need a little more creature removal, and we'll also have more room for nonblue spells in the main. I play 29 blue spells right now, and reading around, it sounds like people recommend 16 blue cards as an absolute minimum with Force of Will in Legacy, with 22 being a better number if you want more consistency. So let's say we do that, and we buy ourselves seven extra spots for nonblue cards. I mean, in comes the second Tarfire for sure, and probably 2-3 more right off the bat. So I've got no idea what we'll do, but I think it'll be better than the Shoal list . . .
. . . which I went 3-1 with tonight.
Round 1: 0-2 to GW Hatebears. Pilot said he hadn't played Modern in 2 years, and came in and Ghost Quarter / Leonin Arbitered me. I was not prepared at all.
Round 2: 2-1 against UR Thing. Won G3 on a mull to 5 and the opponent's T3 Blood Moon into my 2x Vents / Forest. I had 2 Goyfs out and beat face with them, Bolting for the W.
Round 3: 2-0 against UR Moon. Not particularly close. Opponent was scared of Goyf and 2-1ed himself to get rid of it twice, and I just Simic Charmed to save it after the second spell. Easy.
Round 4: 2-0 against Abzan. Finally beat this guy. Game 1, I had a T2 Mandrills, T3 Leak your Liliana, T4 Snapcaster-Leak your Goyf. Game 2 I had Vents, Pool, Misty, Island, Blood Moon, Serum Visions, and Mandrills. Played Vents and Pool to disguise the Moon a bit, planning to fetch Forest T3 and play the Island T4. Opponent played new Ashiok, though, turning off my fetch, so I just played the Island T3, cut myself off green, and Mooned him into the shadow realm. Eventually found a Delver, had an EE blow up his tiny Goyf. It was probably turn 10 before he found Swamp to Push the Delver, but by then I had Snapcaster ready with a Bolt in the yard and another in hand. Two attacks later and he was dunzo.
Ended up in 4th out of 9 because my round 1 opponent didn't win another game all night, but whatever. A 3-1 night felt great. I dodged GDS, 2x Dredge, and 5c Niv-Mizzit pile.
Shoal notes: the only things I Shoaled tonight were a Pyromancer's Ascension and a Lightning Bolt. No creatures. This is something I'm going to watch closely, because the noncreature clause on Force of Negation is real. But I suspect much of what we're countering are noncreatures anyway.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
The red removal in this set will most likely be the red “force” card like force of negation where it will require pitching a red card. I’m guessing something similar to Pyrokinesis though maybe dealing 5 damage to any target rather than 4 to only creatures.
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
2 mana leak
2 sleight of hand
1 spell pierce
1 chart a course
1 simic charm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hooting Mandrills
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
4 Scalding Tarn
3 misty rainforest
3 Wooded foothills
2 island
1 mountain
1 forest
3 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Feed the Clan
1 Echoing Truth
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Dismember
Match 1 vs. Abzan Counters Combo(2-1)
Lost Game 1 because I didn't really know what I was playing against. Opponent combo'd off into infinite life, I scooped to sideboard.
Game 2 Blood Moon won.
Game 3 Was just about keeping his little creatures off the board, got off an Anger of the Gods, felt good.
Match2 vs. Red Prison(2-0)
Game 1 was a non game with Opponent having a Turn 0 Gemstone Caverns but then no other mana. Luckily I had creature fat and onboard quickly to end the game fast.
Game 2 I faced a Turn 2 Chalice on 1. Luckily I drew into my Engineered Explosives early and was able to take out Chalice along with 2 goblin tokens, them bolt his Legion Warboss and kept his board clean after that.
Match 3 vs Spirits (UW, G not confirmed) (0-2)
I sided in Blood Moons, Anger of the Gods, Destructive Revelry, Engineered Explosives, Dismember, and I think Hazoret?
Just didn't have enough to keep those Spirits off the board and Opponent had the upper hand the whole time. Spirits is just crazy with all their counterspells with legs. I'd love any advice people have on beating this deck.
I'm thinking about Pyroclasm for the sideboard, and I still want to test out a single copy of Lazotep Plating in the main to see how it plays generally.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
I want to make an experiment: since recently I saw that the most played graveyard hate is Surgical, I want to try traverse the ulvenwald sideboard. It may just be a fiasco, but I'm playing online for free so why don't try?
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hooting Mandrills
Removal
2 Tarfire
2 Vapor Snag
4 Lightning Bolt
Cantrips
2 Mishra's Bauble
1 Faithless Looting
2 Sleight of Hand
3 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Mana Leak
1 Lazotep Plating
4 Disrupting Shoal
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Bedlam Reveler
3 Blood Moon
2 Return to Nature
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Flame Slash
2 Anger of the Gods
I'm trying Lazotep Plating, but it may just be leak number 3. I still have to cast it once so I'll see.
I'm doing it it too.
Being able to play more non blue cards such as baubles and/or Tarfires and/or Lootings (waiting for a new cantrip if it ever will be printed) would be a very good thing.
The other thing to take note of is how many times we shoal in our turn. A problem could be a removal on our goyf we committed for at end of our turn.
Modern:
Time to bench Mandrills for testing purposes.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
That's what I'm afraid of. But it definitely warrants a round of testing nonetheless.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Agree. A 3/3 turn 3-4 is outclassed by almost every other creature in modern.
Modern:
Goose over Mandrills means we lose Stubborn Denial and Simic Charm. So we play Spell Pierce instead, and Vapor Snag or real removal to keep the ground clear?
And speaking of the new land, I'll probably play the UR one ad a 1-of over the second Steam Vents. Could also see cutting a fetch to play a second. But if we want Goose, we want all the early graveyard stuff.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1914256#paper
I think running 4 Shoal 4 Force is too much, personally.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
He's worth testing for sure, but I'm not hopeful. On a personal not, the fact that you can't boost him with Simic Charm also makes a little sad inside.
Love this maindeck.
Sideboard feels very wrong, though. Commandeer in a 8-pitchcards maindeck is a NO. It needs some kind of hosers against grindy decks (Talrand's Invocation, which feels like a Pia and Kiran Nalaar substitute and it still flips Delver of Secrets?)
I'd agree. It's leftover from the previous iteration of the deck