MTG Salvation

Quote from ObnixilisNate »

Drop sized charm and a vapor snag. Add 2 more mandrills
Our best sorcerys are sleight of hand and traverse.
Your shock lands can interchange depending on your sideboard requirements
3 islands
1 forest
2 steam vents 1 breeding pool (if your side board has a lot of red)
1 stomping ground
1 wooded foothills
4 Tarns
4 mistys

You can drop baubles as needed to make room.

Looks like I"m at 4 snag already so I got it covered! I'm okay with dropping charms, but I need more 2cmc blue things to replace them. Having Shoal on 1cmc is the most important, but I do want to have it somewhat consistently on 2cmc as well. Hence the 2 snaps and 2 charms.

I'd like to avoid adopting monkeys without cutting other creatures and that's because the current distribution of spells vs non spells at the moment is poised for flipping delver. The Baubles are important for giant goyfs, easy mandrills, and better percentage points on flipping delver. So I'd like to avoid cutting those.

(EDIT: Maybe cutting a bauble for a third Monkeys wouldn't be so bad? Keeps the spell vs non-spell distribution the same. Cuts down on redundancy, but maybe that's alright. Thoughts on this?)

Maybe snap just isn't right. It's absent in my UG for a reason. Maybe it doesn't belong in here as well... ugh. Tough to say.

I'd rather play a tarfire over a bauble. It grows goyf and flips delver and it's a removal.
Overall id cut 2 baubles and izzet for tarfire and 2 mandrills. Then I'd like to have an echoing truth over a snag, but that's me. Another 2 drop I love is chart a course.

Quote from Mikefon »

I'd rather play a tarfire over a bauble. It grows goyf and flips delver and it's a removal.
Overall id cut 2 baubles and izzet for tarfire and 2 mandrills. Then I'd like to have an echoing truth over a snag, but that's me. Another 2 drop I love is chart a course.

So I guess the question between tarfire and bauble is that do they fill the same role? They both grow Goyf, but one creates redundancy by getting us to our important cards faster and filling the grave for Mandrills, and the other provides reach/removal while being a spell for Delver. Pros and cons to both, but I think on 16 lands, I'd keep the bauble out of necessity. But maybe more reform could make room for Tarfire decisions decisions.

I would never go below 8 big creatures if you're trying to play Stubborn Denial. The most busted opening this deck has is fetch->Thought Scour, fetch->Mandrills, holding up Bolt and Stubborn Denial. So I think maxing out on the things that make that happen makes sense. Mandrills is also the best creature in the deck, and I think maxing out on them is more important than growing giant Goyfs.

Izzet Charm never much impressed me. I've been loving Chart a Course for a 2-drop that helps make up the card disadvantage of Shoal in matchups where that makes a difference. I've played as many as 3 Simic Charms before, and if you need another 2 drop, that's a good consideration. The card does everything in interactive matchups.

I struggle enough on 18 lands that, tempted though I've been, 17 scares me. And 16 seems bonkers to me. Maybe part of this is due to the 4-drops I've always run out of the board. But if the new mulligan rule sticks, and I do end up cutting my 4-drops in favor os Saheeli out of the board, maybe I'll go to 17. But 16 seems bonkers to me.

Tarfire is great, especially in metas with little critters. Grows Goyfs, snipes walkers, and burns Birds. I'm in no hurry to cut my single copy, and would play 2 if Flame Slash wasn't necessary right now.

Okay, so max out Hooting Mandrills, check! That's -2 Snapcaster Mage for that.

I'm not sold on the Tarfire/Flameslash idea yet. I think I'm propbably pushing my non-blue cards enough. With the 4 Vapor Snag and 4 Lightning Bolt, I think it'll be good enough to start testing.

Next, we gotta deal with the loss of the blue 2cmc wizard, and I dig the chart a course Idea. So -2 Sleight of Hand, and +2 Chart a Course.

AAAAAAND adopting the kind land base suggestion from @Mikefon with a few personal tweaks...

Looks like we come so something like this! https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1793560#paper

Yeah, the enthusiasm in this thread has really gotten to me. Definitely going to sleeve up my Italian Disrupting Shoals.

There's just nothing quite like casting a "Branco Smembrante" on someone.

Quote from LeoTzu »

Yeah, the enthusiasm in this thread has really gotten to me. Definitely going to sleeve up my Italian Disrupting Shoals.

There's just nothing quite like casting a "Branco Smembrante" on someone.

Shoal is VERY good right now. Can't recommend it enough. I think if you sleeve delver you gotta sleeve this card.

We got a Naturalize with a 3rd option with Return to nature
Has anyone talked about this yet?

It definitely caught my eye. It's way easier to cast than Destructive Revelry, although the 2 damage isn't nothing. The gravehate is pretty incidental and isn't taking over spots you'd reserve for Surgical or whatever, but might be worth running in a meta where you want just a little more incidental gravehate.

Card seems solid against Phoenix, since you can hit the Bird in the yard or the Pyromancer Ascension. I'll probably test it out in place of a Revelry, or maybe both.

Quote from Grindor11 »

Okay, so max out Hooting Mandrills, check! That's -2 Snapcaster Mage for that.

I'm not sold on the Tarfire/Flameslash idea yet. I think I'm propbably pushing my non-blue cards enough. With the 4 Vapor Snag and 4 Lightning Bolt, I think it'll be good enough to start testing.

Next, we gotta deal with the loss of the blue 2cmc wizard, and I dig the chart a course Idea. So -2 Sleight of Hand, and +2 Chart a Course.

AAAAAAND adopting the kind land base suggestion from @Mikefon with a few personal tweaks...

Looks like we come so something like this! https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1793560#paper

If you want to play Blood Moon post side (and you definetly should since it's one of the main reason to switch to Temur) I think you need 3 islands. Then I'd play 1-2 snapcaster over 1-2 bauble. 4 are definetly too many I think. You should try tarfire. You'll never leave it at home any more if you do.

OOOOOOH good call on the Blood Moon with basics. Although, with 16 land and 3 colors, I think playing more than 2 island is pretty dangerous. Thoughts? I should dig into some lists for reference and see how crazy people get with it...

EDIT: I'm thinking something like the following. Would love to discuss!



4 copies of Bauble is definitely right. That card is essential to the deck, in my opinion. My issue with adopting Snap over Bauble is that it's they're completely different cards that do different things for the deck. Like, one smooths draws for literally nothing and grows Goyf, helps cast Mandrills, and helps flip Delver. On the flip side we have a 2/1 value boi that recasts the best spell in my yard for 3 or 4 mana at instant speed, often ending the game with bolts or giving us protection with extra Stubborn Denials.

So, I'd be comfy taking out other creatures for Snap, but that's about it. And Since I gotta max on Delver, Goyf, and Mandrills; there just seems to be no place for this card, right? Snapcaster is very very very good, don't get me wrong. But I don't think it's for this deck in particular.

I forgot you were on 16 lands. That changes a bit my considerations. 2 snaps are unaffordable with so few lands (but keep thinking on tarfire ).
Will you play another land in side? I think you'll need some 4 CMC card such as Hazoret or Huntmaster for midrnage match-ups and with 16 lands they are uncastable (it's sometimes difficult with 18 in countercats).

I'm not sure I'll be playing any four cmc cards in the side I really do think we have the tools in our main 60 to beat the midrange matchups already. It's not exactly a slaughter. Just don't let LoTV resolve haha.

I'll probably get on Tarfire at some point but with the initial list, I am concerned about having enough blue cards to give my opponent a consistent Shoaling, and that's probably why It'll stay out until I find out more/less blue cards can be afforded. Definitely on the "TODO list" for the deck!

I think the first Stomping Ground is better than the second Breeding Pool.

Breeding Pool isn't a land I find myself fetching often. Sometimes you have a one lander with cantrips and Mandrills, and then you get it, but my usual first lands are Island, Stomping Ground, Steam Vents. Some matchups where the life total is less of a concern, you can go Steam Vents into Breeding Pool, but I like basic Island a lot.

And while I share some of your apprehension about cutting too many blue cards, I've been running 14 nonblue cards main and have been okay with it. I may end up cutting the Flame Slash and adding another Simic Charm for meta considerations, giving me an extra blue card, but the 8 green creatures, 4 Bolts, and 1 Tarfire have been around since the beginning of the deck. I've never cut Tarfire and I doubt I ever will.

What is the current fetchland amount you guys are playing? I'm considering the following:
2 x Islands
1x Forest
1x Mountain
one of each: Breeding Pool, Stomping Ground and Steam Vents.
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand

But I'm not sure about the Flooded Strand yet. Should I rather play with the Kaladesh fast lands Botanical Sanctum or Spirebluff Canal or get another shockland? and if so which one?

For the most part, the manabase looks something like this



You can go down a Scalding Tarn for a second Wooded Foothills, or you could play ten fetches with 4 Misty 4 Tarn 2 Foothills. I'd say the 4th Tarn is better than the 1st Flooded Strand, if you have access to 4 Tarns. If not, I might even say the 3rd Foothills is better than the 1st Strand, as it is on color and fetches a basic forest, is pretty important if you play with Blood Moon in the sideboard. I would not recommend playing less than 4 shocks, and really not less than 2 Steam Vents.

I use the exact same mana base listed above.... it's pretty much perfect. Don't be skewed by mana destruction decks though. Just hope you dodge that match up.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Island
1 Forest

18 lands. My paper list has 3 Tarns and 3 Foothills because I didn't get the 4th Tarn before it went through the roof again, and I've not noticed a difference. Misty is by far the best fetch. I would only run basic Mountain if I was also playing Traverse, and I haven't for a while now. Occasionally it comes up that I Blood Moon myself off blue if the situation is right, and with 3 Islands, I'm pretty sure to see one eventually.

I agree, basic mountain was MUCH better with traverse...

Woot woot! Just got back from Modern night where I went 2-1. There were five people playing Izzet Poenix or a variation, but I didn't get matched with any of them. I was playing this deck:



Match 1 vs. GriShoalbrand (2-0)
Meme City!
Game 1 I had a Delver flipped on turn two. Countered everything and just hacked away in the air.
Game 2 I brought in Surgical Extractions and extracted a Griselbrand, opponent cast a Pact of Negation and they lost to the Pact cost.

Match2 vs. Colorless Eldrazi (1-2)
Ouch! This is a tough deck to beat!
Game 1 There was very little I could do as opponent dropped eldrazi after eldrazi, disrupting my hand, and and got in with the beat down.
Game 2 I brought in Dismember, Basilisk Collar, Blood Moon (all 3...), Destructive Revelry, and Hazoret the Fervent. Blood Moons were of course a huge mistake, they do nothing significant against Eldrazi. Unfortunately I didn't realize this until Game 3. I DR'd opponent's [card]Chalice of the Void[/c]s on 1s, Dismembered a Reality Smasher, and got there with creatures and burn.
Game 3 was very close. Had I removed the Blood Moons and replaced them with Surgicals or Echoing Truth (Opponent had 3 Matter Reshapers on the board at once!), I may have won. I just drew into Blood Moon at the wrong moment when it did nothing on the board besides lock me out of green. Hazoret did a great job holding off attacks, though I never got around to activating her ability, since I kept drawing delvers and needed them to chump block by that point. I never felt like I had a real chance against this deck, our spells just don't go enough against disruptive creatures; Thought-Knot Seer is a powerhouse against us. Here's hoping Horizons gives us something like Counterspell that can let us deal with creatures on the stack more reliably. If I keep seeing Eldrazi, I might start running some Essence Scatters in the sideboard.

Match 3 vs BG Elves (2-0)
VERY easy games!
Game 1 was very easy. Countered the Stampedes and CoCos, Shoaled a Scavenging Ooze with another Shoal, bolted the dorks, got in with goyfs and mandrills.
Game 2 I brought in Engineered Explosives, Anger of the Gods, and Hazoret. Only drew the Hazoret. Kept up the creature pressure, countered their card advantage spells, got there pretty easy.

The Basilisk Collar inclusion in the sideboard was inspired by Mnes MTG on youtube. It's quite versatile and allows us to get through 3+dmg and lifelink when equipped to Mandrills.

All in all another great night with this deck! What fun! This deck really bamboozles a lot of players. They just don't know what they're up against!