I don't think Jordan is currently on this list. He's developing colorless Eldrazi with greater results at the moment.
I'm toying with his last list (more or less) and I think a shoal version is quite viable at the moment but I still have to find out the best sideboard configuration though.
I suggest you to start from that list if you want to get back to this archetype.
Otherwise, Mnesci is streaming once a week with a Traverse build. I don't know if next league will still feature that list or he will get back to chart and shoal though.
I'd love to hear from other players (if there are any) what they are currently playing and how they feel the deck.
By the shoal list - do you mean the one from Jordan's article?
After much fiddling with Jace I decided that, while powerful, the number of matchups where I actually wanted to bring him in was abysmally small. It seems fighting off BBE and Humans will take priority in the sideboard for some time to come.
After spending a lot of time thinking about which cantrip I wanted to add as the 60th card (3rd scour, 4th bauble, something else entirely) it sort of hit me like a brick, Censor is the perfect one mana cantrip for this deck. It gives me an extra counterspell against decks that I desperately need to interact with on the stack while filtering away against Cavern of Souls or heavy discard. If you get caught holding it up and your opponent plays under it, you can just cycle it and still have a mana available for any interaction you draw. I actually have been keeping it in against Jund over mana leak to fight off Lilliana early and cycle for threats late and I have been seriously impressed. I wouldn't run it over a counterspell, but over a cantrip it's a really solid choice. Paired with Curator and Traverse I feel the deck finally has ways to mitigate the problems that tempo decks have always had without brainstorm, having the right card at the wrong time. They can seem like they have a minor impact as I cycle them frequently but when you want to play the card at face value it feels awesome.
I've been really happy with Roast in the main. It has certainly had its bad moments but no more than players with path/push have against creatureless decks so really almost isn't worth mentioning.
Dropping my single Bojuka Bog and swapping my Firespouts for Anger has definitely seemed correct. Double red hasn't been an issue and if I draw it against Dredge I have yet to lose. Flipping that matchup on its own is worth it.
Huntmaster is probably the singular best card we have against Humans. They absolutely struggle to answer it and rarely hold cards to stop it from flipping. If you kill something like Meddling Mage or Freebooter to turn removal spells back on its pretty much over. I may consider bringing him back up to 2 copies in the future.
I feel the need to reiterate how insane it is to tutor for Magus of the Moon. That ***** is genuinely unfair and I love it.
I don't know if it would be better than other threat options, but after seeing it in action in the format I really believe Dire Fleet Daredevil could be a sideboard piece for us against Jund and decks like it. For starters, 2 power and first strike is the perfect roadblock for a dumb 3/2 elf I know. Against that same deck we struggle to answer their primary threat in Tarmogoyf and Daredevil opens up plenty of opportunities to take down a goyf for 3-4 mana with extra value. We don't have many cards that can do that. Turn three tapping out for a Daredevil and a thoughtseize to rip a threat we can't kill sounds pretty good too. Not to mention the late game shenanigans involving k command or collective brutality.
Other places it's useful:
Against burn, lightning helix would obviously be amazing but any burn is solid when paired with a way to wall guide.
Against Dredge, you can tutor him up to exile a loam, conflagrate, gnaw to bone, or looting as a piece of grave hate. It's niche but solid.
I don't think Jordan is currently on this list. He's developing colorless Eldrazi with greater results at the moment.
I'm toying with his last list (more or less) and I think a shoal version is quite viable at the moment but I still have to find out the best sideboard configuration though.
I suggest you to start from that list if you want to get back to this archetype.
Otherwise, Mnesci is streaming once a week with a Traverse build. I don't know if next league will still feature that list or he will get back to chart and shoal though.
I'd love to hear from other players (if there are any) what they are currently playing and how they feel the deck.
By the shoal list - do you mean the one from Jordan's article?
After much fiddling with Jace I decided that, while powerful, the number of matchups where I actually wanted to bring him in was abysmally small. It seems fighting off BBE and Humans will take priority in the sideboard for some time to come.
After spending a lot of time thinking about which cantrip I wanted to add as the 60th card (3rd scour, 4th bauble, something else entirely) it sort of hit me like a brick, Censor is the perfect one mana cantrip for this deck. It gives me an extra counterspell against decks that I desperately need to interact with on the stack while filtering away against Cavern of Souls or heavy discard. If you get caught holding it up and your opponent plays under it, you can just cycle it and still have a mana available for any interaction you draw. I actually have been keeping it in against Jund over mana leak to fight off Lilliana early and cycle for threats late and I have been seriously impressed. I wouldn't run it over a counterspell, but over a cantrip it's a really solid choice. Paired with Curator and Traverse I feel the deck finally has ways to mitigate the problems that tempo decks have always had without brainstorm, having the right card at the wrong time. They can seem like they have a minor impact as I cycle them frequently but when you want to play the card at face value it feels awesome.
I've been really happy with Roast in the main. It has certainly had its bad moments but no more than players with path/push have against creatureless decks so really almost isn't worth mentioning.
Dropping my single Bojuka Bog and swapping my Firespouts for Anger has definitely seemed correct. Double red hasn't been an issue and if I draw it against Dredge I have yet to lose. Flipping that matchup on its own is worth it.
Huntmaster is probably the singular best card we have against Humans. They absolutely struggle to answer it and rarely hold cards to stop it from flipping. If you kill something like meddling Mage or Freebooter to turn removal spells back on its pretty much over. I may consider bringing him back up to 2 copies in the future.
I feel the need to reiterate how insane it is to tutor for Magus of the Moon. That ***** is genuinely unfair and I love it.
I don't know if it would be better than other threat options, but after seeing it in action in the format I really believe Dire Fleet Daredevil could be a sideboard piece for us against Jund and decks like it. For starters, 2 power and first strike is the perfect roadblock for a dumb 3/2 elf I know. Against that same deck we struggle to answer their primary threat in Tarmogoyf and Daredevil opens up plenty of opportunities to take down a goyf for 3-4 mana with extra value. We don't have many cards that can do that. Turn three tapping out for a Daredevil and a thoughtseize to rip a threat we can't kill sounds pretty good too. Not to mention the late game shenanigans involving k command or collective brutality.
Other places it's useful:
Against burn, lightning helix would obviously be amazing but any burn is solid when paired with a way to wall guide.
Against Dredge, you can tutor him up to exile a loam, conflagrate, gnaw to bone, or looting as a piece of grave hate. It's niche but solid.
Thoughts?
Which is your sideboard plan against jund and in general other midrange/control (blue moon, UWx Control, etc.)?
How do you feel your combo matchups?
Daredevil could be an interesting option. I could give it a try.
Abut Jace: I found him underwhelming too. It may be worth against slow decks like lantern and maybe UW control, otherwhise I think it's a bit too clunky. Chandra is surely better in our deck.
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URGW Countercats
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Censor sounds almost like the perfect card against GBx to deal with Lili. That seems like a great idea! That is the kind of counter I wouldn't hate having postboard against them.
Direfleet Daredevil sounds hilarious against Midrange (I would love to Push someone else's threats), but I'm worried about giving it a whole sideboard slot. It might come in against Control as well, and some combo decks (we can use Storm's spells, so that is neat), but it seems not great against most aggro decks. I like it against Burn, but it does nothing against Humans. Maybe I am underestimating how many aggro decks pack spells we want to cast.
In addition to the archetypes Mikefon mentioned, how do you board against Humans? I think we need all the points we can get against them postboard. Preboard can be rough with a lot of cards that end up dead.
Pretty simple as far as which cards are bad here, and the goal is just to improve topdecks/add removal.
For control matchups generally it's the same in that I bring all my threats in, but usually dropping burn spells, but the power level of moon varies greatly between the different control shells so I sometimes forgo them for more burn. Bring in deprive as well.
Against humans I've actually been taking out delver to fully play the control role and not lead to awkward situations with Anger.
In: 2 blood moon, 1 Magus of the moon, 1 roast, 2 Anger, 1 EE, 1 huntmaster, 1 knuckleblade, 1 ancient grudge, 2 destructive revelry
The moon plan is seriously underrated here. You plan on killing their mana dorks and vials anyways, and they're basically playing city of brass.deck. Generally if you can get them topdecking and you tutor up huntmaster, that's game.
Pretty simple as far as which cards are bad here, and the goal is just to improve topdecks/add removal.
For control matchups generally it's the same in that I bring all my threats in, but usually dropping burn spells, but the power level of moon varies greatly between the different control shells so I sometimes forgo them for more burn. Bring in deprive as well.
Against humans I've actually been taking out delver to fully play the control role and not lead to awkward situations with Anger.
In: 2 blood moon, 1 Magus of the moon, 1 roast, 2 Anger, 1 EE, 1 huntmaster, 1 knuckleblade, 1 ancient grudge, 2 destructive revelry
The moon plan is seriously underrated here. You plan on killing their mana dorks and vials anyways, and they're basically playing city of brass.deck. Generally if you can get them topdecking and you tutor up huntmaster, that's game.
You don't bring collar against humans? I've always felt it as one of the best card against them! I agree with you about the moon plan against them.
I ususally bring collar in against jund too: I need to take out all counters for supporting the BBE plan. I usually don't bring out any burn spell against them since I found them the best way to fight planeswalkers, far better than counterspells which usually get discarded.
Sorry, I absolutely do bring in collar against Humans, I was just posting on mobile from memory.
I skip collar against jund because of k command and generally drawing the game out any longer than we have to isn't ideal there as their card quality is so much better. Against decks like grixis/shadow variants I actually have a chance to counter k command but not against jund, and I think that's a big difference. It is miles better than a counterspell with BBE of course.
I also take out tarfire because it quickly makes opposing goyfs unroastable and instantly invalidates mandrills against goyf. That and confidant is the only surefire creature it kills and I personally wouldn't keep that in against us if I was on Jund.
I like deprive pre side, since we can support it pretty well. In this list I had to go up to 18 lands since I don't have traverse. I choose Island since I'm heavy blue and it helps against field of ruin and with deprive itself. It's also useful against opponents blood moon (if unexpected or cast before turn 3). If I have any problem I'll swap it with another fetch.
I don't like deprive played alongside moon (even if with this lands configuration I think it's acceptable); I must say that post side configurations with both counterspells and moon are rare.
I have it main also in my traverse list too and like it.
I agree that against jund we have to keep goyfs as smaller as possible. That's why I don't cut any mandrill.
My plan is: out 10 counters, 1 truth and 2 scours -> in everything except revelry and grudge. BBE definetly helps against them even if theirs are obviously stronger.
Kolaghan's command can kill our collar but if they do they either don't get back another threat or don't let us discard or don't kill our delver. I think it's worth. They only play 1 or 2 commands in any case. It's true they can kill it with decay and pulse too, but they could also kill whatever else we played.
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I suppose you're right in that k command is a two for one no matter what mode they choose, maybe I'm looking at collar wrong in that matchup.
Oh and definitely agree on not cutting mandrills. I actually never do that in any matchup I don't think. Being able to burn goyf and then shrink it with delve is actually our most reliable/efficient way to do it, honestly. So often I'll spend three mana to bolt goyf, tutor for mandrills, and then cast it to send goyf to the yard. It's a great play.
The matchups where deprive and moon are in together for me are: scapeshift variants, tron, ad nauseum, and U/x/x control. In those matchups Having that extra counterspell is so essential because they can essentially beat you with one card (except control) so an occasional stumble to get UU with moon in play I think is worth it to have a hard two mana answer to anything they put on the stack. Particularly because if moon is in play you may not even need to counter spells with any urgency.
It's actually about the same as before in post #4331. Firespout and Anger come in against the same decks for the most part to that change doesn't matter, and the sideboard threats are different but you basically bring them all in or none. Censor you kinda have to determine case by case, usually if counterspells are bad you can cut it as long as you have something better to bring in. Against jund I don't think I do, for example.
If there's a specific question or matchup you want to know is be happy to cover it but last time I typed that up it took a long time haha
I'm a recent convert from UR Delver and will be playing my first FNM with RUG Delver shortly. I'm on the Disrupting Shoal plan for now, and am just looking for some chatter about the Shoal plan versus the Traverse plan.
Shoal seems better in more linear metas, yes? The last few times I've been to my local, it's been a few Jund decks, Traverse Shadow, Humans, Skred, a few Bogles lists, KCI, Tron or Eldrazi Tron, Naya Zoo, Grixis Control, and a few brews. That list seems like the Traverse plan would be better.
Will report back, but in the meantime, for those of you who lean hard one way or the other, why do you prefer Traverse or Shoal?
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Shoal shines against aggro (except maybe humans, but shoaling vial and maybe some champions/hierarch is good), combo and especially with all decks that have a lot of low cmc counterable spells and gaining tempo can lead you to victory. Traverse adds more threats to the decks. I think that you need at least a couple of traverse in the 75 since it helps against midrange and control where the card disadvatage of shoal is greatly punished.
Looking at your MUs list I think that shoals is stronger only against bogles and maybe zoo (but it depends a lot on the list). I usually feel shoal version better against brews too but that's me. Jund and controls call for traverse. The others seem pretty close.
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My opinion is that the linear decks are already gold matchups, so why slant the deck in a way that focuses on those matchups instead of trying to even out our inherently bad matchups? Not to mention when you have traverse and bauble you can run less lands while having greater access to Snapcaster Mage, meaning you draw interaction at highter rates. That's where I want to be against linear decks, anyways.
My opinion is that the linear decks are already gold matchups, so why slant the deck in a way that focuses on those matchups instead of trying to even out our inherently bad matchups? Not to mention when you have traverse and bauble you can run less lands while having greater access to Snapcaster Mage, meaning you draw interaction at highter rates. That's where I want to be against linear decks, anyways.
I'm testing both version to see the differences i.e. how much I lose or gain with a version or the other. Until now I think they're really close since both have slightly better or slightly worse match-ups. As far as I'm concerned, I think that Traverse build will prevail in the end thanks to its better midrange match-up. They do play and win differently though, and this could be a reason to prefer one or another.
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Friday, my LGS decided to do an event with the new standard event decks, so those of us who don't check the schedule on the reg were standing around with our Modern decks. I snuck a few games in with my Disrupting Shoal Delver list, which is the same list Jordan's been on.
Played against my pal's BR aggro list that's been the rogue menace of the store lately with Goblin Guides, Bloodghasts, Rabblemaster, topping out with an Olivia Voldaren. Went 2-0 on the back of the big threats and timely burn. Seems like that's how the deck is supposed to run.
Then I played against a guy playing UB Faeries. Game 1 I got a key Spellstutter Sprite with Shoal pitching Simic Charm and won the game shortly thereafter. Game 2 I boarded in a few Destructive Revelries, figuring he had to be running Bitterblossom. Sure enough, he played it turn 2, which I promptly Revelried, then played a 6/7 Goofus and won shortly thereafter.
I played one game against Humans and boy, that was brutal. I Shoaled the first Vial on the draw, but he played another next turn and I was way, way on the back foot.
Next Friday, I'm going to try a hybrid list with 3 Shoal and also the Traverse plan. It has 17 blue 1cmc cards to pitch still, but it's a little light on 2s. That said, most of what I want to be countering while tapped out is stuff like Bolt, Push, Path, etc, so maybe it's okay. Here's what I'll be bringing: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/04-03-18-rug-delver/
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Friday, my LGS decided to do an event with the new standard event decks, so those of us who don't check the schedule on the reg were standing around with our Modern decks. I snuck a few games in with my Disrupting Shoal Delver list, which is the same list Jordan's been on.
Played against my pal's BR aggro list that's been the rogue menace of the store lately with Goblin Guides, Bloodghasts, Rabblemaster, topping out with an Olivia Voldaren. Went 2-0 on the back of the big threats and timely burn. Seems like that's how the deck is supposed to run.
Then I played against a guy playing UB Faeries. Game 1 I got a key Spellstutter Sprite with Shoal pitching Simic Charm and won the game shortly thereafter. Game 2 I boarded in a few Destructive Revelries, figuring he had to be running Bitterblossom. Sure enough, he played it turn 2, which I promptly Revelried, then played a 6/7 Goofus and won shortly thereafter.
I played one game against Humans and boy, that was brutal. I Shoaled the first Vial on the draw, but he played another next turn and I was way, way on the back foot.
Next Friday, I'm going to try a hybrid list with 3 Shoal and also the Traverse plan. It has 17 blue 1cmc cards to pitch still, but it's a little light on 2s. That said, most of what I want to be countering while tapped out is stuff like Bolt, Push, Path, etc, so maybe it's okay. Here's what I'll be bringing: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/04-03-18-rug-delver/
I've always felt hybrid versions quite inconsistent in both plans. I must admit that I haven't tested them in the current meta though, rather trying to transform from shoal to traverse version pre and post side.
I don't like having so few blue spells with shoal. I'd rather play a normal traverse build since shoal aren't at their best in your build. 2 cmc spells are very important in this meta (well almost in any meta to be honest) and with only 7 pitchable 2 cmc spells you are a bit to low imho (I play 9 and they're already a bit to few sometimes). Why don't you just switch from a shoal to a traverse version? They're very similar in global MW%. Otherwhise, if you like how shoal version plays, just put traverse in side. I think you can gain some points doing so.
Then why don't you play anger of the gods and/or Engineered Explosives post side? They give you edge against bigger creatures.
Thanks for the response! I'll probably swap one Pyroclasm for an Anger of the Gods. I don't run an Engineered Explosives because I don't own one and refuse to pay out the nose for a sideboard card that could go from $60 to $15 with a reprint.
I'll keep an eye on the 2cmc blue cards. That was a concern when I was putting the list together. You may be right that the Traverse plan is best kept in the board. We'll see.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Went 2-1 with RUG Delver tonight on my first spin with the deck.
Lost 0-2 to Jund in close games, including a really tough game 2 where I had a Basilisk Collar on a Hooting Mandrills against a Bloodbraid and Bob. He had one card, I was hellbent. He was at 7, I was at 2. Felt I had to hold it up to block, but I probably should've attacked. Basically I'd be dead to topdecked Lili's -2, a Kolaghan's Command, a bolt, Collective Brutality, Bloodbraid, etc. So I held up as a blocker, when I probably should've attacked. I didn't consider that he was super likely to block with the Bob. He drew the Brutality for turn and killed me, and after said that he was for sure going to block with Bob so he didn't die to the trigger. Not sure what I ought've done there. He would've been dead to a topdecked Snapcaster, bolt, or Traverse the Ulvenwald, which gets Mage to flashback a bolt. That's the sort of thing that I think I'll get better at once I get more Modern under my belt, and once I get more reps with this deck.
Round 2 was against my pal's Rakdos aggro brew that's been a terror of the store for a while. Lost game 1 to hasty threats. Won games 2 and 3 on the back of timely Goyfs, Pyroclasm, and a backbreaking Stubborn Denial.
Round 3 was against Elves. Got run over on turn 5 in the first game, and games 2 and 3 had my one-of Grafdiffer's Cage in the opener to shut off Collected Company, and also had a sweeper by turn 3 both games. Game 3 he kept a one-lander with a few Elvish Mystics, but I was able to bolt one and Tarfire the other, then Pyroclasmed him out of the game by turn 5 right before he died to big Goyfs and a bolt.
I think I'm ditching the Shoals and playing more removal. Way too many creature decks at my local, and almost no linear combo.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Went 2-1 with RUG Delver tonight on my first spin with the deck.
Lost 0-2 to Jund in close games, including a really tough game 2 where I had a Basilisk Collar on a Hooting Mandrills against a Bloodbraid and Bob. He had one card, I was hellbent. He was at 7, I was at 2. Felt I had to hold it up to block, but I probably should've attacked. Basically I'd be dead to topdecked Lili's -2, a Kolaghan's Command, a bolt, Collective Brutality, Bloodbraid, etc. So I held up as a blocker, when I probably should've attacked. I didn't consider that he was super likely to block with the Bob. He drew the Brutality for turn and killed me, and after said that he was for sure going to block with Bob so he didn't die to the trigger. Not sure what I ought've done there. He would've been dead to a topdecked Snapcaster, bolt, or Traverse the Ulvenwald, which gets Mage to flashback a bolt. That's the sort of thing that I think I'll get better at once I get more Modern under my belt, and once I get more reps with this deck.
I think you should have attacked since you would have reduced the way of dying.
By the shoal list - do you mean the one from Jordan's article?
cheers,,
Ezi.
After much fiddling with Jace I decided that, while powerful, the number of matchups where I actually wanted to bring him in was abysmally small. It seems fighting off BBE and Humans will take priority in the sideboard for some time to come.
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrills
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Curator of Mysteries
Spells:29
4 Serum Visions
3 Mishra's Bauble
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Thought Scour
1 Censor
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
1 Roast
2 Vapor Snag
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Feed the Clan
1 Deprive
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Roast
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Blood Moon
After spending a lot of time thinking about which cantrip I wanted to add as the 60th card (3rd scour, 4th bauble, something else entirely) it sort of hit me like a brick, Censor is the perfect one mana cantrip for this deck. It gives me an extra counterspell against decks that I desperately need to interact with on the stack while filtering away against Cavern of Souls or heavy discard. If you get caught holding it up and your opponent plays under it, you can just cycle it and still have a mana available for any interaction you draw. I actually have been keeping it in against Jund over mana leak to fight off Lilliana early and cycle for threats late and I have been seriously impressed. I wouldn't run it over a counterspell, but over a cantrip it's a really solid choice. Paired with Curator and Traverse I feel the deck finally has ways to mitigate the problems that tempo decks have always had without brainstorm, having the right card at the wrong time. They can seem like they have a minor impact as I cycle them frequently but when you want to play the card at face value it feels awesome.
I've been really happy with Roast in the main. It has certainly had its bad moments but no more than players with path/push have against creatureless decks so really almost isn't worth mentioning.
Dropping my single Bojuka Bog and swapping my Firespouts for Anger has definitely seemed correct. Double red hasn't been an issue and if I draw it against Dredge I have yet to lose. Flipping that matchup on its own is worth it.
Huntmaster is probably the singular best card we have against Humans. They absolutely struggle to answer it and rarely hold cards to stop it from flipping. If you kill something like Meddling Mage or Freebooter to turn removal spells back on its pretty much over. I may consider bringing him back up to 2 copies in the future.
I feel the need to reiterate how insane it is to tutor for Magus of the Moon. That ***** is genuinely unfair and I love it.
I don't know if it would be better than other threat options, but after seeing it in action in the format I really believe Dire Fleet Daredevil could be a sideboard piece for us against Jund and decks like it. For starters, 2 power and first strike is the perfect roadblock for a dumb 3/2 elf I know. Against that same deck we struggle to answer their primary threat in Tarmogoyf and Daredevil opens up plenty of opportunities to take down a goyf for 3-4 mana with extra value. We don't have many cards that can do that. Turn three tapping out for a Daredevil and a thoughtseize to rip a threat we can't kill sounds pretty good too. Not to mention the late game shenanigans involving k command or collective brutality.
Other places it's useful:
Against burn, lightning helix would obviously be amazing but any burn is solid when paired with a way to wall guide.
Against Dredge, you can tutor him up to exile a loam, conflagrate, gnaw to bone, or looting as a piece of grave hate. It's niche but solid.
Thoughts?
Yes I was referring to that list.
Which is your sideboard plan against jund and in general other midrange/control (blue moon, UWx Control, etc.)?
How do you feel your combo matchups?
Daredevil could be an interesting option. I could give it a try.
Abut Jace: I found him underwhelming too. It may be worth against slow decks like lantern and maybe UW control, otherwhise I think it's a bit too clunky. Chandra is surely better in our deck.
Modern:
Direfleet Daredevil sounds hilarious against Midrange (I would love to Push someone else's threats), but I'm worried about giving it a whole sideboard slot. It might come in against Control as well, and some combo decks (we can use Storm's spells, so that is neat), but it seems not great against most aggro decks. I like it against Burn, but it does nothing against Humans. Maybe I am underestimating how many aggro decks pack spells we want to cast.
In addition to the archetypes Mikefon mentioned, how do you board against Humans? I think we need all the points we can get against them postboard. Preboard can be rough with a lot of cards that end up dead.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
In: 2 Blood Moon, 1 Huntmaster, 1 knuckleblade, 1 roast, 1 EE
Out: 2 tarfire, 3 stubborn denial, 1 mana leak
Pretty simple as far as which cards are bad here, and the goal is just to improve topdecks/add removal.
For control matchups generally it's the same in that I bring all my threats in, but usually dropping burn spells, but the power level of moon varies greatly between the different control shells so I sometimes forgo them for more burn. Bring in deprive as well.
Against humans I've actually been taking out delver to fully play the control role and not lead to awkward situations with Anger.
Out: 4 delver, 3 stubborn denial, 2 mana leak, 1 censor, 2 spell snare
In: 2 blood moon, 1 Magus of the moon, 1 roast, 2 Anger, 1 EE, 1 huntmaster, 1 knuckleblade, 1 ancient grudge, 2 destructive revelry
The moon plan is seriously underrated here. You plan on killing their mana dorks and vials anyways, and they're basically playing city of brass.deck. Generally if you can get them topdecking and you tutor up huntmaster, that's game.
You don't bring collar against humans? I've always felt it as one of the best card against them! I agree with you about the moon plan against them.
I ususally bring collar in against jund too: I need to take out all counters for supporting the BBE plan. I usually don't bring out any burn spell against them since I found them the best way to fight planeswalkers, far better than counterspells which usually get discarded.
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Mishra's Bauble
1 Curious Obsession
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
1 Echoing Truth
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Mana Leak
1 Deprive
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Chart a Course
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Blood Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Dismember
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Modern:
I skip collar against jund because of k command and generally drawing the game out any longer than we have to isn't ideal there as their card quality is so much better. Against decks like grixis/shadow variants I actually have a chance to counter k command but not against jund, and I think that's a big difference. It is miles better than a counterspell with BBE of course.
I also take out tarfire because it quickly makes opposing goyfs unroastable and instantly invalidates mandrills against goyf. That and confidant is the only surefire creature it kills and I personally wouldn't keep that in against us if I was on Jund.
How has deprive worked for you?
I don't like deprive played alongside moon (even if with this lands configuration I think it's acceptable); I must say that post side configurations with both counterspells and moon are rare.
I have it main also in my traverse list too and like it.
I agree that against jund we have to keep goyfs as smaller as possible. That's why I don't cut any mandrill.
My plan is: out 10 counters, 1 truth and 2 scours -> in everything except revelry and grudge. BBE definetly helps against them even if theirs are obviously stronger.
Kolaghan's command can kill our collar but if they do they either don't get back another threat or don't let us discard or don't kill our delver. I think it's worth. They only play 1 or 2 commands in any case. It's true they can kill it with decay and pulse too, but they could also kill whatever else we played.
Modern:
Oh and definitely agree on not cutting mandrills. I actually never do that in any matchup I don't think. Being able to burn goyf and then shrink it with delve is actually our most reliable/efficient way to do it, honestly. So often I'll spend three mana to bolt goyf, tutor for mandrills, and then cast it to send goyf to the yard. It's a great play.
The matchups where deprive and moon are in together for me are: scapeshift variants, tron, ad nauseum, and U/x/x control. In those matchups Having that extra counterspell is so essential because they can essentially beat you with one card (except control) so an occasional stumble to get UU with moon in play I think is worth it to have a hard two mana answer to anything they put on the stack. Particularly because if moon is in play you may not even need to counter spells with any urgency.
Would you be able to do a in - out sb list for the common match ups with your latest list?
I wanna give your list a whirl I think.
Thanks mate you rule!
Ezi.
If there's a specific question or matchup you want to know is be happy to cover it but last time I typed that up it took a long time haha
Shoal seems better in more linear metas, yes? The last few times I've been to my local, it's been a few Jund decks, Traverse Shadow, Humans, Skred, a few Bogles lists, KCI, Tron or Eldrazi Tron, Naya Zoo, Grixis Control, and a few brews. That list seems like the Traverse plan would be better.
Will report back, but in the meantime, for those of you who lean hard one way or the other, why do you prefer Traverse or Shoal?
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Looking at your MUs list I think that shoals is stronger only against bogles and maybe zoo (but it depends a lot on the list). I usually feel shoal version better against brews too but that's me. Jund and controls call for traverse. The others seem pretty close.
Modern:
I'm testing both version to see the differences i.e. how much I lose or gain with a version or the other. Until now I think they're really close since both have slightly better or slightly worse match-ups. As far as I'm concerned, I think that Traverse build will prevail in the end thanks to its better midrange match-up. They do play and win differently though, and this could be a reason to prefer one or another.
Modern:
Played against my pal's BR aggro list that's been the rogue menace of the store lately with Goblin Guides, Bloodghasts, Rabblemaster, topping out with an Olivia Voldaren. Went 2-0 on the back of the big threats and timely burn. Seems like that's how the deck is supposed to run.
Then I played against a guy playing UB Faeries. Game 1 I got a key Spellstutter Sprite with Shoal pitching Simic Charm and won the game shortly thereafter. Game 2 I boarded in a few Destructive Revelries, figuring he had to be running Bitterblossom. Sure enough, he played it turn 2, which I promptly Revelried, then played a 6/7 Goofus and won shortly thereafter.
I played one game against Humans and boy, that was brutal. I Shoaled the first Vial on the draw, but he played another next turn and I was way, way on the back foot.
Next Friday, I'm going to try a hybrid list with 3 Shoal and also the Traverse plan. It has 17 blue 1cmc cards to pitch still, but it's a little light on 2s. That said, most of what I want to be countering while tapped out is stuff like Bolt, Push, Path, etc, so maybe it's okay. Here's what I'll be bringing: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/04-03-18-rug-delver/
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I don't like having so few blue spells with shoal. I'd rather play a normal traverse build since shoal aren't at their best in your build. 2 cmc spells are very important in this meta (well almost in any meta to be honest) and with only 7 pitchable 2 cmc spells you are a bit to low imho (I play 9 and they're already a bit to few sometimes). Why don't you just switch from a shoal to a traverse version? They're very similar in global MW%. Otherwhise, if you like how shoal version plays, just put traverse in side. I think you can gain some points doing so.
Then why don't you play anger of the gods and/or Engineered Explosives post side? They give you edge against bigger creatures.
In any case tell us how your tournaments go.
Modern:
I'll keep an eye on the 2cmc blue cards. That was a concern when I was putting the list together. You may be right that the Traverse plan is best kept in the board. We'll see.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Lost 0-2 to Jund in close games, including a really tough game 2 where I had a Basilisk Collar on a Hooting Mandrills against a Bloodbraid and Bob. He had one card, I was hellbent. He was at 7, I was at 2. Felt I had to hold it up to block, but I probably should've attacked. Basically I'd be dead to topdecked Lili's -2, a Kolaghan's Command, a bolt, Collective Brutality, Bloodbraid, etc. So I held up as a blocker, when I probably should've attacked. I didn't consider that he was super likely to block with the Bob. He drew the Brutality for turn and killed me, and after said that he was for sure going to block with Bob so he didn't die to the trigger. Not sure what I ought've done there. He would've been dead to a topdecked Snapcaster, bolt, or Traverse the Ulvenwald, which gets Mage to flashback a bolt. That's the sort of thing that I think I'll get better at once I get more Modern under my belt, and once I get more reps with this deck.
Round 2 was against my pal's Rakdos aggro brew that's been a terror of the store for a while. Lost game 1 to hasty threats. Won games 2 and 3 on the back of timely Goyfs, Pyroclasm, and a backbreaking Stubborn Denial.
Round 3 was against Elves. Got run over on turn 5 in the first game, and games 2 and 3 had my one-of Grafdiffer's Cage in the opener to shut off Collected Company, and also had a sweeper by turn 3 both games. Game 3 he kept a one-lander with a few Elvish Mystics, but I was able to bolt one and Tarfire the other, then Pyroclasmed him out of the game by turn 5 right before he died to big Goyfs and a bolt.
I think I'm ditching the Shoals and playing more removal. Way too many creature decks at my local, and almost no linear combo.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I think you should have attacked since you would have reduced the way of dying.
If that's your meta, it definitely could be worth.
Modern: