Running a split of Deprive/Leak probably leads to having games where you fetched for one, drew the other and either lost life or can't cast your counter.
I can't understand what you mean here: you usually fetch according to what you have in hand. In any case by turn three you should have UU anyway often with a basic available for bounce. Can you make an example of a wrong way of fetching?
Loosing life in many matches (either due to fetching for shock or to bounce a shock) is more than acceptable if you manage to get rid of a menace imho.
I can see instead the moon-deprive clash.
I keep plenty of hands with just two lands, or one land plus Serum Visions/Traverse. There are many games where you find your third land drop quite late, or not at all. With these, you either lose out on UU, or you have to fetch Steam Vents and Breeding Pool, which can really hurt against aggressive decks.
I will make up a super contrived scenario to demonstrate what I am thinking of. I have no idea how often this kind of thing happens in games, and it absolutely doesn't prove my point due to how rare it could be.
Let's say our opening seven is two fetches, Mandrills, Scour, Bolt, Leak, and Denial. You play a fetch and pass. The opponent plays a Goblin Guide that you Bolt, getting a Steam Vents.
What do you fetch now? You can Scour, get a Green source and play Mandrills, or hold up Leak. Either way, you should probably get an untapped land. So, do you get a Basic Forest or a Breeding Pool? You don't really need UU or UR yet, so you could save yourself some life. But if you draw Deprive later, you might not be able to cast it.
Also, if we are playing Deprive over Leak entirely, Deprive is in our hand instead. You probably get the Breeding Pool, taking some extra damage. That may very well cost you the game.
In a certain percentage of games, you will lose due to having to shock due to running Deprive (or just not being able to cast it, or some other U spell because your mana was spoken for that turn). In a certain percentage of games, you will lose due to Mana Leak not countering something late. My worry with Deprive is whether or not people have considered losing due to shocking because you could lose the game (due to running Deprive over Leak) even if you don't see the card.
I never fetch in anticipation for Deprive. And Ill fetch for Deprive when it is in my hand, if circumstances allow (if there is a better play, I will fetch for the better play). It is rare that I get stuck on 2 lands forever, and if I do, Im losing anyways (most likely), Deprive or not.
Let's say our opening seven is two fetches, Mandrills, Scour, Bolt, Leak, and Denial. You play a fetch and pass. The opponent plays a Goblin Guide that you Bolt, getting a Steam Vents.
What do you fetch now? You can Scour, get a Green source and play Mandrills, or hold up Leak. Either way, you should probably get an untapped land. So, do you get a Basic Forest or a Breeding Pool? You don't really need UU or UR yet, so you could save yourself some life. But if you draw Deprive later, you might not be able to cast it.
I never fetch in anticipation for Deprive. And Ill fetch for Deprive when it is in my hand, if circumstances allow (if there is a better play, I will fetch for the better play). It is rare that I get stuck on 2 lands forever, and if I do, Im losing anyways (most likely), Deprive or not.
That is very interesting (and helpful for when I get around to actually trying Deprive). So, if you don't have a Deprive in hand, you fetch more conservatively (say, Island Stomping Ground instead of Steam Vents Breeding Pool)?
In the above scenario, if Leak was a Deprive, what would you get with the second fetch? Do you take the extra damage to be able to use the Deprive before your third land comes? I think it is still possible that if you get the Breeding Pool, you could lose due to running Deprive over Leak (with Leak, I would be conservative and grab a Basic Forest).
Stalling on two lands forever is usually bad, but it isn't that uncommon to hit your third land drop on turns 4, 5, or 6. You still need to decide whether or not to shock, and it could hurt. If you do have the third land, you probably happily get Steam Vents, Forest, and Island. But if we are missing land drops, I think the decision is very relevant.
And Ill circle back to inst/sorc cut-offs. What are your cut-offs for inst/sorc in the main? (asking everyone). I think 27 is bare minimum.
I missed this while typing up a storm.
I agree with 27. I don't have any hard numbers on my Delver flips, but I don't think I have ever gone below 27, and I have been at it. I also implicitly (maybe irrationally) don't like the idea of going to 26, so I have to go with 27 being my cutoff.
Let's say our opening seven is two fetches, Mandrills, Scour, Bolt, Leak, and Denial. You play a fetch and pass. The opponent plays a Goblin Guide that you Bolt, getting a Steam Vents.
What do you fetch now? You can Scour, get a Green source and play Mandrills, or hold up Leak. Either way, you should probably get an untapped land. So, do you get a Basic Forest or a Breeding Pool? You don't really need UU or UR yet, so you could save yourself some life. But if you draw Deprive later, you might not be able to cast it.
I never fetch in anticipation for Deprive. And Ill fetch for Deprive when it is in my hand, if circumstances allow (if there is a better play, I will fetch for the better play). It is rare that I get stuck on 2 lands forever, and if I do, Im losing anyways (most likely), Deprive or not.
That is very interesting (and helpful for when I get around to actually trying Deprive). So, if you don't have a Deprive in hand, you fetch more conservatively (say, Island Stomping Ground instead of Steam Vents Breeding Pool)?
In the above scenario, if Leak was a Deprive, what would you get with the second fetch? Do you take the extra damage to be able to use the Deprive before your third land comes? I think it is still possible that if you get the Breeding Pool, you could lose due to running Deprive over Leak (with Leak, I would be conservative and grab a Basic Forest).
Stalling on two lands forever is usually bad, but it isn't that uncommon to hit your third land drop on turns 4, 5, or 6. You still need to decide whether or not to shock, and it could hurt. If you do have the third land, you probably happily get Steam Vents, Forest, and Island. But if we are missing land drops, I think the decision is very relevant.
Thanks for this conversational thread. You perfectly articulated on the last page the mana woes I've encountered with Deprive. I want to add that if you do fetch shocks for Deprive, you're likely to have to play them untapped again. When we're on two lands (which like you said, is quite common in Game 1s), we tend to use all our mana each turn cycle. In this particular example against Burn, we'll probably play the land tapped the second time to save on damage, but that will likely come at the cost of not casting an extra Serum or something, which can also be brutal.
Ad Nauseam is also the main matchup I had in mind when it comes to Moon and Deprive tension, but Bogles is another good one (I legit paired with this deck at a Modern tournament this week).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Landing blood moon vs bogles or ad nausem usually is a death blow, anyways. If Moon and Deprive are in my opening hand, I got for Moon, first. But like I said, I usually side-out some or all of my deprives in Moon matchups anyways.
As for the issues with fetching for shock lands, I agree, it is a knock against Deprive. Not enough to dissuade me from using it completely, though. Dont forget I also run 1x pierce and an extra Denial compared to you two, so I am not completely out of answers in the two matchups you just brought up.
As for the issues with fetching for shock lands, I agree, it is a knock against Deprive. Not enough to dissuade me from using it completely, though. Dont forget I also run 1x pierce and an extra Denial compared to you two, so I am not completely out of answers in the two matchups you just brought up.
I have no idea if people should play Deprive. I'm not really even trying to dissuade its use. I just don't think I have ever seen people consider the extra damage you take from having to fetch less conservatively if you play it (although, replaying shocks has been mentioned). I wanted to know if you guys have considered this in your games/testing (like I said, losing due to taking the extra damage, whereas, if it was a Leak, being able to be conservative and save some life that could get you a win).
So you know, I always look at how I lost, and ask myself if 2 extra life (or X extra life) would have made a difference. Thus far, I cant remember a match like that in the case of deprive, apart from obvious game 1's vs burn. But that doesn't mean anything.
That is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to know. Thanks!
If you guys are cognisant of that and have liked Deprive, I will gladly try it out.
Great. Like I mentioned a few times before, like with Traverse, it takes a bit to get used to it. It definitely alters plays and sequencing. And Ive learned a lot since Ive started playing with it (that means I made a lot of boo-boos )
Like Traverse doesn't work for me, Deprive might not work for you. In general, though, it has been a great card to have access to. I have definitely won games where I would have lost with Mana Leak.
Landing blood moon vs bogles or ad nausem usually is a death blow, anyways. If Moon and Deprive are in my opening hand, I got for Moon, first. But like I said, I usually side-out some or all of my deprives in Moon matchups anyways.
As for the issues with fetching for shock lands, I agree, it is a knock against Deprive. Not enough to dissuade me from using it completely, though. Dont forget I also run 1x pierce and an extra Denial compared to you two, so I am not completely out of answers in the two matchups you just brought up.
That's true, Denial and Pierce definitely pull the weight lost in the AN matchup. But what about other decks, like Scapeshift? Pierce and Denial won't stop Primeval Titan, which can still beat us through a Moon. So can Wurmcoil Engine out of Tron. I disagree with the notion that Leak and Moon never play nice together; against big mana decks, they're best buds.
To be clear, I don't mean to knock the card either. Just want to fully wrap my head around its use.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Landing blood moon vs bogles or ad nausem usually is a death blow, anyways. If Moon and Deprive are in my opening hand, I got for Moon, first. But like I said, I usually side-out some or all of my deprives in Moon matchups anyways.
As for the issues with fetching for shock lands, I agree, it is a knock against Deprive. Not enough to dissuade me from using it completely, though. Dont forget I also run 1x pierce and an extra Denial compared to you two, so I am not completely out of answers in the two matchups you just brought up.
That's true, Denial and Pierce definitely pull the weight lost in the AN matchup. But what about other decks, like Scapeshift? Pierce and Denial won't stop Primeval Titan, which can still beat us through a Moon. So can Wurmcoil Engine out of Tron. I disagree with the notion that Leak and Moon never play nice together; against big mana decks, they're best buds.
To be clear, I don't mean to knock the card either. Just want to fully wrap my head around its use.
I didnt want my comment about Moon and Leak to sound like I was dismissing Leak altogether. I played with Leak far longer than I played with Deprive. So Im trying to compare my experiences with the older version, and this version. 1U is easier to cast than UU. Lets just be clear I am on board with this notion (Im not an idiot :)).
I concede that I am giving up a potential hard counter using Deprive and Moon in the same deck in certain match-ups.
In regards to your PT and WCE comments. I have actually played an abnormal amount of matches against Primetime decks, and my win rate is actually above 75%. Denial plays a big role to stop scapeshift, and moon turns off valakut. Simic charm helps me beat titan (or bounce it), and pongify just kills it outright. And so long as I cut them off double green for a turn or two, I win anyways (especially in the air). Narnam plays a nice role here as well.
Tron is just a horrible matchup in general. I am not sure how much my winrates will change swapping back to Leak. I can say my win rates vs Eldrazi Tron are a bit better than regular Tron. I attribute that in part to being able to Deprive Smashers against opponents with leak protection.
Tron is just a horrible matchup in general. I am not sure how much my winrates will change swapping back to Leak. I can say my win rates vs Eldrazi Tron are a bit better than regular Tron. I attribute that in part to being able to Deprive Smashers against opponents with leak protection.
That's interesting. I have always found the Tron matchup to be quite good. It gets a little worse without Probe, but I was still posting favorable results against the deck in my testing post-ban. IMO the Tron matchup has always been one of the main reasons to play Temur Delver over Grixis.
I can see Eldrazi improving with Deprive, though. When they have a Cavern, Leak is just dead, whereas Deprive still hits important cards like Stirrings and EE.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
What do you all think of a one of Spreading Seas in the board to supplement Moon? Riku had a list with 3 recently, but I don't want to give up Huntmaster. The meta looks soft to mana disruption, but a good few decks (Affinity, Dredge, Burn) actually resist Moon, so I don't want to main board any of those (that was my first thought). I was even thinking maybe the Seas in the main. Could grow Goyf and help with Delirium, cantrip, and helps out a little bit against land based decks while not being dead often (cantrips and can pitch to Shoal for two).
While I think that our Tron and Eldrazi matchups are good (I'd say even at worst) I don't mind making them better. Hitting them and greedy Shadow decks (and midrange decks that prey on them) is my incentive for wanting some extra mana denial.
What do you all think of a one of Spreading Seas in the board to supplement Moon? Riku had a list with 3 recently, but I don't want to give up Huntmaster. The meta looks soft to mana disruption, but a good few decks (Affinity, Dredge, Burn) actually resist Moon, so I don't want to main board any of those (that was my first thought). I was even thinking maybe the Seas in the main. Could grow Goyf and help with Delirium, cantrip, and helps out a little bit against land based decks while not being dead often (cantrips and can pitch to Shoal for two).
While I think that our Tron and Eldrazi matchups are good (I'd say even at worst) I don't mind making them better. Hitting them and greedy Shadow decks (and midrange decks that prey on them) is my incentive for wanting some extra mana denial.
Seems fine. Kelsey is playing a pair in the Counter-Cat side and loving them. It's a great card right now and the easiest of the land disruption cards to support (next to Moon, Fulminator, and Quarter).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
My plan is a Seas in addition to the 3 Blood Moons in the board, but if you are asking Ashton, I don't think Counter Cat plays Moon. I do agree that 3 pieces is probably where you want to be (having never played Cat), though. Especially if it is only Seas.
I'm going to try the Spreading Seas in the main because I'd like to get a feel for it, and I think it would be a nice bonus in G1 against a good few decks. I think I will start by cutting the Vapor Snag. Other options I'm considering are Dismember, Traverse #2, Tarfire #2, Snap #2/Renegade (but not until I finish getting a feel for Renegade), and Curiosity. I think Vapor Snag is slightly worse than Dismember in the matchups in which you don't want the effect, so I am starting there. I'm also going to take a long look at my board to see if I can drop the sideboard Dismember to put Vapor Snag there (and if Snag deserves the spot).
Alright, I see there's quite a bit of confusion concerning Deprive here so I'll try to clarify why the card is better than leak once and for all.
The additional U of deprive is not a real cost since most of the times you just want to go breeding pool, steam vents and island anyway (the more blue mana the merrier, since it's pretty common to chain cantrips and needing to keep denial up).
the returning of a land is not a cost, it's a perk!!! so many times deprive has let me play an additional land post-combat that I couldn't have played otherwise. Also relevant, it frees our land from spreading seas.
it doesn't play badly with blood moon since 90% of the matches where blood moon comes in, you side deprives out. Notable exceptions are classic tron, UWx and Valakut decks, where if you are able to stick a blood moon you couldn't care less about a dead deprive in hand anyway, and half of the times I have the 2 islands out too.
We don't care about the extra shock damage from lands anyway since our deck is structured to be ahead and stay ahead on board. when our life total starts to matter, it's usually too late. Plus, against aggressive decks, deprive's the first card to go.
deprive's NEVER a dead card, while mana leak loses value faster than a drag racer.
Once, I was torn just like you. So I kept actual track (excel sheet, 100ish matches) of all the cases where I'd rather have drawn leak instead of deprive and deprive won the comparison hands down.
Essentially this is what I was saying, but in a long, laborious, and fragmented way.
After reading some of the responses here to the list I posted last and ending up a frustrating 3-2 six leagues in a row, ive made some tweaks and ended up going 4-1, 5-0, 4-1, 3-2 over the last four leagues losing to merfolk, bushwhacker zoo, gw tron, an 'as foretold control deck' that caught me by surprise.
Soul-scar ended up being painfully slow compared to swiftspear and while the ability was quite useful and baited removal, the haste from a swiftspear to hit walkers would have been more valuable, and swiftspear isn't good enough without probe. I tried curator in this spot and while I really liked it as delirium/goyf fuel I ended up only searching for it with traverse once in almost 50 games and was boarding it out frequently. While I would like to include a copy somehow this seemed like a wasted slot that was forcing me to relegate renegade to the sideboard.
Renegade was something that I was trying out in the sideboard but, wow, that card has impressed. So much so that I dropped spirebluff canal to better facilitate him. With bauble and 9 fetches that's 13 ways to trigger him turn one. Having one main adds much more utility to traverse than curator does, at least where the format is right now.
Additionally, while remand is a card I still think is a great fit for this strategy and this deck, mana leak is the more appropriate complement to the singleton deprive which I've grown to view as a staple.
Finally, lavamancer just seemed worse than renegade in the format (although I stand by it's incredible ability to flip the Merfolk matchup completely) and was overall was perhaps too taxing on the graveyard to Be brought it when it wasn't a complete allstar. Of course this left my sideboard without any way to handle creature decks going wide, so pyroclasm was the obvious include. Especially now that we have a one drop that can survive it.
I want to address a few of these points. I apologize in advance if my ability to separate quotes from a single post does not shine through. I omitted the points that I don't really have much to say about because I don't want to hog all the page space (I do enough of that already). Also, sorting through the points, this is some very nice formatting. I might steal this in the future. Really, nice job.
The additional U of deprive is not a real cost since most of the times you just want to go breeding pool, steam vents and island anyway (the more blue mana the merrier, since it's pretty common to chain cantrips and needing to keep denial up).
I am exceedingly glad that you joined the conversation and led with this point. Really missed you while talking about fetching yesterday. So, you do fetch shocks aggressively? Even when you don't have Deprive in hand? This is extremely relevant to me because Kovo is more conservative than what you describe, and I want all the opinions available for when I try Deprive.
I strongly disagree with fetching U shocks this aggressively. I almost never go for three U sources in my first three land drops, especially in the dark. I am probably a bit too conservative in my fetching, but I think you are taking unnecessary damage doing this. I almost never find myself actually wanting to use more than two U in a single untap cycle, even with Snapcaster. And by then, it is usually for a late game counterfest. Cantrip chaining I will admit is a solid point, but I don't think that comes up often due to the tempo loss of spending 2-3 mana and not affecting the board. Also, I find that usually occurs later in the game when you are out of gas.
the returning of a land is not a cost, it's a perk!!! so many times deprive has let me play an additional land post-combat that I couldn't have played otherwise. Also relevant, it frees our land from spreading seas.
Since I haven't tried it yet, I can completely believe it playing out like this, but do you find you Deprive more on your own turn than on the opponent's? I usually use Leak on sorcery speed spells. You also run more Denial-style counters than most, and those help with countering removal that would be cast on your turn.
We don't care about the extra shock damage from lands anyway since our deck is structured to be ahead and stay ahead on board. when our life total starts to matter, it's usually too late. Plus, against aggressive decks, deprive's the first card to go.
I think this is wrong. This relates back to the first point in which I mentioned aggressive fetching. I do agree completely if you are talking about our life total not being very relevant against midrange and control decks. Once I have reason to believe that the opponent is on a deck that won't apply pressure, I probably fetch just as aggressively as you do. In the dark though, I almost always fetch more conservatively. Our life total is definitely relevant against the likes of Burn, Affinity, Dredge, and even to a degree against Death's Shadow (at least, a greater degree than against traditional midrange). Your life total matters even while you are at 20 against these decks. Not dying immediately doesn't mean that extra damage could kill you. I have won plenty of games at 1 or 2 life, and have lost against opponents at 1 and 2.
This is exactly the point that I wanted to discuss when I first mentioned Deprive on the last page. Because I play Leak, I fetch relatively conservatively, believing that it is unlikely that I will need the colours, and will probably be better served by having an extra couple of life. If I win against Burn (example aggressive deck) with two life to spare because I fetched less aggressively than I would if Deprive were in the deck (or hand), playing Leak won me that game. If I just barely lost (their last spell/attack took me to 0 or -1 just before I would have stabilized or killed them), and I had fetched aggressively but didn't need the colours, and am running Leak, I would consider that a misplay that cost me a game. I am 100% comfortable with fetching aggressively being the right play while running Deprive, and absolutely am not saying that you are playing wrong. I am saying that if Deprive causes you to fetch more aggressively, you will lose a percentage of games (even if they are only Game Ones most of the time) that you would win if you had Leak. This is a real downside, and a real cost to playing the card. This is what I wanted to bring up because I had previously not seen it discussed.
Also, more curiosity about running Deprive, which aggressive decks do you side it out against? I like (at least 1) Leak against Burn, Dredge, and at least a few others.
deprive's NEVER a dead card, while mana leak loses value faster than a drag racer.
I honestly think that Leak's downside is overstated most of the time. People in the State of Modern thread complain about Leak being bad because they want a Blue Control deck to be amazing. We don't play control! The only times I can specifically think of not liking Leak's downside are against Burn (dying to topdecks that I can't counter), and control decks that will actually wear through your other counters and get you late enough that you need Leak to still work. In my obviously anecdotal experience, Mana Leak almost always does its job, not because it is specifically long-lasting, but because we or the opponent ends the game quickly enough, or the opponent just doesn't have enough mana to stop it (Leak is usually used for big spells that the opponent often plays as soon as they can).
Once, I was torn just like you. So I kept actual track (excel sheet, 100ish matches) of all the cases where I'd rather have drawn leak instead of deprive and deprive won the comparison hands down.
I remember when you told me about your data. I think it was 150ish castings of Leak/Deprive. You liked Deprive for something like 100 (maybe more) of them, liked Leak for a very small proportion (I think 6), and didn't care for the remaining balance. That data is why I am interested in Deprive in the first place!
In terms of aggressive fetching, Im probably between you and Blaze. What's in my hand really does dictate a lot of my fetching. I remove Deprive against decks like Burn, Merfolk, X Zoo, Elves, and the like.
I never fetch in anticipation for Deprive. And Ill fetch for Deprive when it is in my hand, if circumstances allow (if there is a better play, I will fetch for the better play). It is rare that I get stuck on 2 lands forever, and if I do, Im losing anyways (most likely), Deprive or not.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
That is very interesting (and helpful for when I get around to actually trying Deprive). So, if you don't have a Deprive in hand, you fetch more conservatively (say, Island Stomping Ground instead of Steam Vents Breeding Pool)?
In the above scenario, if Leak was a Deprive, what would you get with the second fetch? Do you take the extra damage to be able to use the Deprive before your third land comes? I think it is still possible that if you get the Breeding Pool, you could lose due to running Deprive over Leak (with Leak, I would be conservative and grab a Basic Forest).
Stalling on two lands forever is usually bad, but it isn't that uncommon to hit your third land drop on turns 4, 5, or 6. You still need to decide whether or not to shock, and it could hurt. If you do have the third land, you probably happily get Steam Vents, Forest, and Island. But if we are missing land drops, I think the decision is very relevant.
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I missed this while typing up a storm.
I agree with 27. I don't have any hard numbers on my Delver flips, but I don't think I have ever gone below 27, and I have been at it. I also implicitly (maybe irrationally) don't like the idea of going to 26, so I have to go with 27 being my cutoff.
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Ad Nauseam is also the main matchup I had in mind when it comes to Moon and Deprive tension, but Bogles is another good one (I legit paired with this deck at a Modern tournament this week).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
As for the issues with fetching for shock lands, I agree, it is a knock against Deprive. Not enough to dissuade me from using it completely, though. Dont forget I also run 1x pierce and an extra Denial compared to you two, so I am not completely out of answers in the two matchups you just brought up.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I have no idea if people should play Deprive. I'm not really even trying to dissuade its use. I just don't think I have ever seen people consider the extra damage you take from having to fetch less conservatively if you play it (although, replaying shocks has been mentioned). I wanted to know if you guys have considered this in your games/testing (like I said, losing due to taking the extra damage, whereas, if it was a Leak, being able to be conservative and save some life that could get you a win).
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RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
If you guys are cognisant of that and have liked Deprive, I will gladly try it out.
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Great. Like I mentioned a few times before, like with Traverse, it takes a bit to get used to it. It definitely alters plays and sequencing. And Ive learned a lot since Ive started playing with it (that means I made a lot of boo-boos )
Like Traverse doesn't work for me, Deprive might not work for you. In general, though, it has been a great card to have access to. I have definitely won games where I would have lost with Mana Leak.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
To be clear, I don't mean to knock the card either. Just want to fully wrap my head around its use.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I didnt want my comment about Moon and Leak to sound like I was dismissing Leak altogether. I played with Leak far longer than I played with Deprive. So Im trying to compare my experiences with the older version, and this version. 1U is easier to cast than UU. Lets just be clear I am on board with this notion (Im not an idiot :)).
I concede that I am giving up a potential hard counter using Deprive and Moon in the same deck in certain match-ups.
In regards to your PT and WCE comments. I have actually played an abnormal amount of matches against Primetime decks, and my win rate is actually above 75%. Denial plays a big role to stop scapeshift, and moon turns off valakut. Simic charm helps me beat titan (or bounce it), and pongify just kills it outright. And so long as I cut them off double green for a turn or two, I win anyways (especially in the air). Narnam plays a nice role here as well.
Tron is just a horrible matchup in general. I am not sure how much my winrates will change swapping back to Leak. I can say my win rates vs Eldrazi Tron are a bit better than regular Tron. I attribute that in part to being able to Deprive Smashers against opponents with leak protection.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I can see Eldrazi improving with Deprive, though. When they have a Cavern, Leak is just dead, whereas Deprive still hits important cards like Stirrings and EE.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
While I think that our Tron and Eldrazi matchups are good (I'd say even at worst) I don't mind making them better. Hitting them and greedy Shadow decks (and midrange decks that prey on them) is my incentive for wanting some extra mana denial.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I'm going to try the Spreading Seas in the main because I'd like to get a feel for it, and I think it would be a nice bonus in G1 against a good few decks. I think I will start by cutting the Vapor Snag. Other options I'm considering are Dismember, Traverse #2, Tarfire #2, Snap #2/Renegade (but not until I finish getting a feel for Renegade), and Curiosity. I think Vapor Snag is slightly worse than Dismember in the matchups in which you don't want the effect, so I am starting there. I'm also going to take a long look at my board to see if I can drop the sideboard Dismember to put Vapor Snag there (and if Snag deserves the spot).
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Essentially this is what I was saying, but in a long, laborious, and fragmented way.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Narnam Renegade
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrills
Spells:30
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Tarfire
2 Thought Scour
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Vapor Snag
1 Deprive
2 Mana Leak
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Narnam Renegade
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Bedlam Reveler
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Flame Slash
1 Vapor Snag
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
Soul-scar ended up being painfully slow compared to swiftspear and while the ability was quite useful and baited removal, the haste from a swiftspear to hit walkers would have been more valuable, and swiftspear isn't good enough without probe. I tried curator in this spot and while I really liked it as delirium/goyf fuel I ended up only searching for it with traverse once in almost 50 games and was boarding it out frequently. While I would like to include a copy somehow this seemed like a wasted slot that was forcing me to relegate renegade to the sideboard.
Renegade was something that I was trying out in the sideboard but, wow, that card has impressed. So much so that I dropped spirebluff canal to better facilitate him. With bauble and 9 fetches that's 13 ways to trigger him turn one. Having one main adds much more utility to traverse than curator does, at least where the format is right now.
Additionally, while remand is a card I still think is a great fit for this strategy and this deck, mana leak is the more appropriate complement to the singleton deprive which I've grown to view as a staple.
Finally, lavamancer just seemed worse than renegade in the format (although I stand by it's incredible ability to flip the Merfolk matchup completely) and was overall was perhaps too taxing on the graveyard to Be brought it when it wasn't a complete allstar. Of course this left my sideboard without any way to handle creature decks going wide, so pyroclasm was the obvious include. Especially now that we have a one drop that can survive it.
I am exceedingly glad that you joined the conversation and led with this point. Really missed you while talking about fetching yesterday. So, you do fetch shocks aggressively? Even when you don't have Deprive in hand? This is extremely relevant to me because Kovo is more conservative than what you describe, and I want all the opinions available for when I try Deprive.
I strongly disagree with fetching U shocks this aggressively. I almost never go for three U sources in my first three land drops, especially in the dark. I am probably a bit too conservative in my fetching, but I think you are taking unnecessary damage doing this. I almost never find myself actually wanting to use more than two U in a single untap cycle, even with Snapcaster. And by then, it is usually for a late game counterfest. Cantrip chaining I will admit is a solid point, but I don't think that comes up often due to the tempo loss of spending 2-3 mana and not affecting the board. Also, I find that usually occurs later in the game when you are out of gas.
Since I haven't tried it yet, I can completely believe it playing out like this, but do you find you Deprive more on your own turn than on the opponent's? I usually use Leak on sorcery speed spells. You also run more Denial-style counters than most, and those help with countering removal that would be cast on your turn.
I think this is wrong. This relates back to the first point in which I mentioned aggressive fetching. I do agree completely if you are talking about our life total not being very relevant against midrange and control decks. Once I have reason to believe that the opponent is on a deck that won't apply pressure, I probably fetch just as aggressively as you do. In the dark though, I almost always fetch more conservatively. Our life total is definitely relevant against the likes of Burn, Affinity, Dredge, and even to a degree against Death's Shadow (at least, a greater degree than against traditional midrange). Your life total matters even while you are at 20 against these decks. Not dying immediately doesn't mean that extra damage could kill you. I have won plenty of games at 1 or 2 life, and have lost against opponents at 1 and 2.
This is exactly the point that I wanted to discuss when I first mentioned Deprive on the last page. Because I play Leak, I fetch relatively conservatively, believing that it is unlikely that I will need the colours, and will probably be better served by having an extra couple of life. If I win against Burn (example aggressive deck) with two life to spare because I fetched less aggressively than I would if Deprive were in the deck (or hand), playing Leak won me that game. If I just barely lost (their last spell/attack took me to 0 or -1 just before I would have stabilized or killed them), and I had fetched aggressively but didn't need the colours, and am running Leak, I would consider that a misplay that cost me a game. I am 100% comfortable with fetching aggressively being the right play while running Deprive, and absolutely am not saying that you are playing wrong. I am saying that if Deprive causes you to fetch more aggressively, you will lose a percentage of games (even if they are only Game Ones most of the time) that you would win if you had Leak. This is a real downside, and a real cost to playing the card. This is what I wanted to bring up because I had previously not seen it discussed.
Also, more curiosity about running Deprive, which aggressive decks do you side it out against? I like (at least 1) Leak against Burn, Dredge, and at least a few others.
I honestly think that Leak's downside is overstated most of the time. People in the State of Modern thread complain about Leak being bad because they want a Blue Control deck to be amazing. We don't play control! The only times I can specifically think of not liking Leak's downside are against Burn (dying to topdecks that I can't counter), and control decks that will actually wear through your other counters and get you late enough that you need Leak to still work. In my obviously anecdotal experience, Mana Leak almost always does its job, not because it is specifically long-lasting, but because we or the opponent ends the game quickly enough, or the opponent just doesn't have enough mana to stop it (Leak is usually used for big spells that the opponent often plays as soon as they can).
I remember when you told me about your data. I think it was 150ish castings of Leak/Deprive. You liked Deprive for something like 100 (maybe more) of them, liked Leak for a very small proportion (I think 6), and didn't care for the remaining balance. That data is why I am interested in Deprive in the first place!
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver