I ran 2 Aven Mindcensor in the mainboard for a while, whenever I played it in response to a fetch or search effect it was good, in all other situations it was mediocre. It almost always just ate removal. I switched over to Suppression Fields with Mindcensor in the sideboard. They also hinder fetches and stop or slow most combos. I felt it had a wider reach than Mindcensor. Though it won't trigger the Sisters and doesn't have flash, it costs 1 mana less than Mindcensor and as an enchantment is much harder to remove.
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The Primer for this thread mentions that the deck is "bad" and has a link to a blog on why it is "bad", but the link doesn't go to a blog about Soul Sisters.
Why do people consider it a bad deck? Is it because it can be hated out easily? i.e. Rain of Gore
The forum Change messed the blog up, the link was fixed but here's the blog:
Every time I lose with soul sisters it is not from misplays, it is from my inability to interact with my opponent. Because the deck is so reliant on it's game plan there is basically no room to seriously shift things around. It has to contain all the core cards in order for the deck to work. Four Path to Exile is not enough, although the card is good we look at the top tier decks such as UWR and Jund. These both play a plethora the formats best removal spells, counter spells, and profit cards. Because we have such a strict game plan our resources are limited to just 4 measly removal spells. When soul sisters wins, it wins from gaining life to try to make the absence of removal irrelevant. To put enough early pressure and go ahead for the win. We play cards like Ranger of Eos and Squadron Hawk to fill our hand with creatures and to keep putting down threats even after we get board wiped. We try to ignore what our opponent is doing and stick to what we do best. Gaining life and beating down. When we run into the predicament where attacking with any of our creatures is no longer relevant is where we struggle. Our opponent drops down a huge creature and our attacks would just die is where we need that Path to Exile, if we don't get it we are pretty much screwed. Trying to avoid or fix this problem is where the deck really struggles. We can't deviate from our main game plan, because it will seriously hurt the decks tempo. The decks is so unreliable when it comes to dealing with our opponents threats that those threats soon outclass ours. The problem grows as the game reaches turns 3-4. If you can get enough early pressure on the board to overcome their plays, good for you. It isn't necessarily hard for the deck to do. However, That certain fact of uncertainly is the glaring weakness of the deck.
This is why I splashed black for Orzhov Charm. If you compare the Charm to Dismember it offers additional utility and is roughly the same life cost to remove something like a Tarmo though it does cost 1 more mana. I have seen lists run Dismember in the board. I'll be honest I love having the additional removal option to help push through lethal. Its kind of a security blanket sure but making a 6/6 Flying Lifelink instant speed blocker really screws with peoples combat math too. They nuke your Ascendant thinking they have shut you down and can swing in to drop your life total to deactivate future Ascendants and you turn their plan against them. Sure you trade a card but your board position is better for it. Not to mention the fact that you have your Ascendent sans-summoning sickness ready to swing again on your turn.
The problem is....Modern format doesn't change. the decks we see now are the decks we will face in the near future.....and looking at their lists there are very few "huge creatures" we can't handle.
If we're talking about Eldrazi & Iona, they are the finishing line of the deck they belong to...meaning when they touch the ground you have lost...no matter the deck you are playing.
Every other creature in the format is usually......small, and our deck packs a lot of 1/1 with honor of the pure, and Serra Ascendant + Ajani's Pridemate can handle things like Tarmo, restoration Angel and so on.
Maindeck we can easily handle:
Splinter Twin (2 Sisters out and they cannot combo, 1 path and you block them)
Storm (1 Martyr is usually enough, but you can play more)
Scapeshift (1 Martyr is usually enough, but you can play more)
To a certain extent Pod (3 sisters for angel-kiki combo, 2 Auriok champion for redcap-melira combo, 2 sisters for finks-melira combo, a path for all of the above).
As for Aggro decks, we have to play aggro (Ascendant, Pridemate, Honor of the Pure)
And UWx control simply kill us on the spot.
I really don't see how the deck can be bad considering the top Tier decks.
As for the control MU, i went for a green splash. MD is still the usual Soul Sister, with 2 Ranger of Eos (kinda need my martyr out asap if i'm against combo or scapeshift and they didn't kill me by the time i play the ranger, something that Brimaz won't help on). I added 2 Thrun and 4 Loxodon Smiter in the side. Thrun is GG for any Control deck. And Smither can be killed only by Path, Wrath or 2+ removals. They both cannot be countered, so every one of them is a problem. Simply Mono-W Soul Sister has 0 chances against UWx control, and i cannot play the deck at big events (PTQ, GPT, Big tourneys) knowing that if i face one of the top tier i simply lose....
The last time I suggested a splash I was nearly crucifide. I like your strategy though. I splashed black for additional removal. A lot of the cases you mentioned need or benefit from having removal in hand. I run seven pieces and while that's not exactly control heavy it let's me be more liberal with them when I need to. Orzhov Charm costs life, but so does Dismember most of the time, and I'd rather lose 1-4 life than lose the game.
I opted for Lingering Souls and an additional anthem main board for the control matchup. I've seen people run Chalice of Life/Death in the board for control. I've considered it to bring in over Ajani's Pridemate. A turn 2 Martyr, pop it on their endstep, then drop a Chalice and flip it immediately on turn 3 means they need to find a way to remove it or win on by turn 6. That seems pretty good. Though I suppose running black means I could also side in Thoughtsieze or probably even Duress to keep my life total in check. I just loathe running non-white cards because of Martyr but I suppose Chalice isn't white. It does however gain us life in some capacity and represents a very threatening clock.
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So I played a few rounds last night with this deck. Just kind of want to let you guys know about experiences. For reference my decklist is in the spoiler.
I own this deck both online and in paper. The main deck is the same on and off except the lands. Online is a much more budget version simply because its so expensive to pay for two copies of everything. I mostly just use the online environment to practice for paper FNMs. This will be relevant in my report.
As for the number of black sources, Honestly it is almost too many. The Isolated Chapels are perfect because I can't even use a black source until turn 2 and normally don't want it until at least 4 which is the earliest I would using the flashback on Lingering Souls. Fortunately the deck is not terribly color hungry so Caves of Kolios usually isn't a liability. Having the basic swamps is for matchups where the opponent is running Path to Exile. Its an opportunity to fix my mana.
I played several matches but only two are of any real interest (read as: the opponent didn't quit after the first two rounds). The first was against some kind of Junk list. It actually reminded me of Jund but swap red out in favor of white. The second was against WUR Control. This was actually a really fun match.
Junk 1-1
So against the Junk deck, I didn't take notes so this is from memory. I remember the hand I took game 1 was pretty okay. It was something like plains, plains, Soul Warden, Ajani's Pridemate, Path to Exile, Martyr of Sands, Orzhov Charm. I started with a Plains and Warden into his fetch for a G/B Shock. Turn 2 I dropped an Ajani's Pridemate which immediately became a 3/3 and met a Path. It was at this point that I realized I had not added any black sources to the deck other than the 4 guildgates I just happened to have. During this game I never saw a black source despite the fact that he used 3 Paths on my guys so the charm was dead in my hand. Anyway, this match went to turn 5 with him Pathing nearly everything I dropped. I drew an Honor of the Pure, a Spear, Lingering Souls, and a bunch of land despite only running 20 in the deck. I eventually ended with a Lingering Souls on board with an Honor of the Pure and a Spear of Heliod to his field of Courser of Kruphix, a bob, and something else. He top decked an abrupt decay to nuke my Spear and I ran out of gas unable to flashback Lingering Souls. A few short turns later it was over.
Game 2 he mulliganed to 5 against my nut draw of turn 1 Serra to turn 2 Martyr. He conceeded on turn 3.
We didn't get to play a game 3 because he quit after that =\.
WUR Control 1-1-1 (He D/C with a precarious position on field. I think I would have one but I hate to assume)
Against American control I had fixed my land base and added 4 Swamps. This helped, needless to say. Having a set of basics, even as a 1 of for each color, is so useful against any deck that runs Path or Ghost Quarter. I don't care how many colors you run, you are making your opponent's cards better by not running at least 1 basic of each color.
I don't remember a ton of details about this match but a couple things that were relevant. Early in game 1 I had a sister and an ascendant on the field and a Squak and Charm in hand. I was having a shockingly hard time getting above that 30 life mark. I had played a Martyr turn 1 to have it immediately Path'd too which I grabbed a free black source. Eventually it became a super grindy war between him Helix, Bolt, and Snap helixing pretty much anything I lay down. He blew all of his removal trying to remove my "engine" before I landed by Serra. He Cryptic Command bounced it twice but couldn't find a hard answer for it and didn't play any sweepers in all three games. I'm not sure if he even had them. We traded swings back and forth with an Honor of the Pure on the field. Eventually he managed to nuke the Serra and swing in with some kind of blue flying creature, I want to say a token from Hour of Need but I could be wrong. Anyway I Charmed back the Serra on his turn to block the token. On my turn I turned in with a Squak and Serra buffed by Honor. Next turn he was dead.
Its hard for me to recall the details (I had a couple of beers and it was late) but I remember loving the Charm. Basically I always had 1 removal in hand at all times between Charm and Path. Having that removal made quite the difference. I didn't always have to use it but I always had a way to push damage through. At one Point I even Charmed a Celestial Colonade against the WUR control which shut him down for the game. The life loss sucks and while I didn't know for sure that taking out his manland would shut him down I knew that it would open up for me to swing. I went from 35 to 31 life from it but he could have easiliy bolted, helixed, or snapped either to turn of my ascendant but conversly he could have outright killed my ascendant the same way if I blocked with it in order to kill it that way. Having the answer guaranteed me a few games even if I never actually had to use it I knew that even if the opponent did try and drop a chump or stabalize I could shut that down.
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Why does it seem like so few decklists run Brave the Elements? I couldn't imagine playing either of my WW decks without it.
It used to. I've seen it in old sideboard lists. The problem with it is not that it is bad but that it doesn't do enough. It doesn't make any of our weaker matchups better. It doesn't improve the matchup against Combo, Tron, or Affinity. It might help a little against control or Jund but we already do pretty well against those matchups.
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i built this red white black deck and i'm sure if it counts as soul sisters or not, but i am wondering what the benefits of using bitterblossom of norin the wary are? maybe i should use both?
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Interesting, interesting build, TheRogue. Way more grindy control than pure aggro, but I love some of your interactions. I think Norin makes a lot more sense than Brain Maggot, and I would imagine he makes Purphoros a monster. I think 8 blood moon effects are a lot, but they could be solid depending on meta. I worry about your lands falling victim to your own hate though, since a lot your cards require specific mana symbols to get on the board and you'll probably be using a lot of non-basics for a three-color deck.
Once you start testing, I'd love to hear your results.
I'm a UB Tezzeret player and as often as I've heard about this deck, I've never really played against it nor with it. My question is this:
1) What are the differences between Soul Sisters and Martyr Proc? I understand the decks are very similar, but one runs Proclamation of Rebirth main? Is that the only thing?
2) If the 2 decks are different, what are your reasons for running Soul Sisters over Martyr Proc?
3) Also, is there a good list of WB Soul Sisters? I want to use Athreos, Orzhov Charm, and such. I think maybe 6-8 removal spells is necessary for a lot of the match ups.
1: MarytrProc is a life gain central combo deck that utilizes Proclamation of Rebirth to gain massive amounts of life with Martyr of Sands. This is to ensure that its Serra Ascendants are always 6/6s. Most MartyrProc lists splash black for Vizkopa Guildmage and Orzhov Charm. At its heart, MartyrProc is a combo deck using lifegain to stay alive long enough to kill with Ascendants or Vizkopa Guildmages.
Soul Sisters is a synergy based white weenies aggro deck with a lifegain subtheme. It prefers incremental lifegain multiple times a turn as opposed to simply massive amounts of lifegain. Soul Sister's plan is to play a bunch of threats that either grow because of lifegain or are mana efficient while using its large amount of life as a buffer rather than blocking. Soul Sisters is an aggro-midrange deck.
2: Soul Sisters is far more consistent and faster than MartyrProc. It uses the card advantage generated from Ranger of Eos and Squadron Hawk more efficiently. Its much easier to disrupt MartyrProc's game plan than it is Soul Sisters as it has a lot more redundancy.
3: If you search through the thread there are people testing out Orzhov Sisters. Splashing black takes away from the consistency of the deck which is one of its main draws but it does allow for more removal and the use of discard.
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Interesting, interesting build, TheRogue. Way more grindy control than pure aggro, but I love some of your interactions. I think Norin makes a lot more sense than Brain Maggot, and I would imagine he makes Purphoros a monster. I think 8 blood moon effects are a lot, but they could be solid depending on meta. I worry about your lands falling victim to your own hate though, since a lot your cards require specific mana symbols to get on the board and you'll probably be using a lot of non-basics for a three-color deck.
Once you start testing, I'd love to hear your results.
I run 4 marsh flat so I hit moon effects once i've secured a basic swamp and plains, my regret is I don't have anything that takes advantage of all of the sacred foundrygodless shrineblood crypt that have been turned into solid mountains. be nice if one of these creatures had fire breathing. champion could be switched over to souls attendant for ease of mana base.
maybe I should cut 2 magus for 4th orzhov charm and lightning helix?
my other major concern is what to use for card draw?
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I run 4 marsh flat so I hit moon effects once i've secured a basic swamp and plains, my regret is I don't have anything that takes advantage of all of the sacred foundrygodless shrineblood crypt that have been turned into solid mountains. be nice if one of these creatures had fire breathing. champion could be switched over to souls attendant for ease of mana base.
maybe I should cut 2 magus for 4th orzhov charm and lightning helix?
my other major concern is what to use for card draw?
I don't think 8 removal is totally necessary in the deck, but I think 5-6 moon effects might be a little smoother for sure.
I always want to run Dark Confidant in a sisters build, though there is a ton of dangerous stuff that you could flip in your build. Maybe Mentor of the Meek, since you don't have the anthems, so most of your creatures will hit it? (Mentor and Norin could be a delicious combo, as well.)
What do people think about a few Cloudshift in this deck? Retriggering search effects and sister triggers while dodging targeting removal seems more interesting than Brave The Elements, if nothing else.
3: If you search through the thread there are people testing out Orzhov Sisters. Splashing black takes away from the consistency of the deck which is one of its main draws but it does allow for more removal and the use of discard.
So I'd like to address this point, or maybe clarify possibly. The version I typically run is a B/W version splashing black for only Orzhov Charm and Lingering Souls. Other than that the deck is fairly stock with one other minor change. Because I do not run Ranger of Eos (Charm replaces Ranger) I also have a lower curve topping out at 3 cmc for Lingering Souls. I removed 1 land and added 1 Spear of Heliod. I typically don't talk about my results or experiences because running anything other than mono-W sisters is pretty taboo. That being said I'd like to talk a little bit about the differences.
First off I'd like to say that the mono-W version is probably the best in any unknown meta. It is consistent, strong, and has awesome sideboard options for pretty much any deck. It takes some of the best things about B/W Tokens (Anthems + effecient threats) and mixes in some of the explovness of RDW (T1: Serra into T2: Martyr) but adds in reliable lifegain that makes it very resilient. The major disadvantage of the deck is the quality of card advantage engines it has. Planeswalkers like Liliana of the Veil produce far more card advantage than Squadron Hawks or Ranger of Eos.
Technically if you are going to splash an off color in a deck it should fix some kind of otherwise inherint disadvantage the deck has. Black could supply that but then you start taking away from Martyr. It does open up options such as Bob, Liliana of the Viel, Thoughtsize, and so forth which are some of the most powerful cards in the format. Personally, I wanted to focus on just running things that were white so I kept it to Orzhov Charm and Lingering Souls and not Bob. Orzhov Charm adds removal to a deck that otherwise runs the bare minimum. I found that I often needed more ways to interact with my opponent. Orzhov Charm hurts our life total but its something we can handle better than most decks and other than Tarmogoyf there really isn't much that hurts that bad anyway. Orzhov charm also does a mediocre Ranger of Eos impersonation by letting us grab a 1 drop out of the yard, and at instant speed. Where Ranger costs 5 to put a new Ascendant on the field (4 for eos, 1 for the Ascendant), Charm only takes 2. I have won games because I was able to flash a dead Ascendant out of the yard to block and then swing for lethal on my turn. On the other hand Eos provides 3 bodies and is big enough to be a threat himself. There are circumstances with the Charm that you hit 4 mana and have not had an Ascendant die or you lost it to a Path or Scavenger Ooze in which Eos is nearly always better (except it can't remove the Ooze so you better hope you can go over the top so yet another trade off). Orzhov Charm makes the game 1 better against Merfolk, Robots, and other similar decks, becuase of the amount of removal we have.
Lingering Souls is good against Jund or other decks that run Thoughtsieze or Liliana of the Veil. It is an aweful discard target but because it can produce so many guys it helps make up for the fact that it encourages them to grab something else. Splitting the tokens up over multiple turns does hurt Windbrisk Heights so I do not run that in the B/W build. However splitting them up over multiple turns also makes sweepers less effective which is relevant against control and some burn decks depending on whats in their board. Spectral Procession gets a LOT better though when you have a couple Sisters and an unactive Serra. Procession is 6 life and Lingering is only 4 and trust me, that matters. Lingering is 8 over two turns but that's an eternity in Modern.
With these small changes there isn't much difference in the consistency of the deck. Your lines of play are essentially the same even on turn 4 assuming you have any 1 relavent 1 drop in your yard. The difference is you can drop a HotP and recur a Sister, Martyr, or Serra in the same turn. I find the only note worthy issue of consistency is the innate difference between running a multi-color deck and running a mono-color deck. Mono mana is always more consistent no matter how well built your mana base is. I'm not saying this version is better and in fact it plays very similarly to the mono-W version but after having played both, other than the mana base, I wouldn't say there are any consistency issues that you wouldn't experience in the mono-W version. It just depends on how far you take your splash whatever color it is.
tl;dr If you are going to splash in Soul Sisters just be careful how far you take it.
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I completely agree with you on the power of Orzhov Charm. It's the same reason I like to keep at least two Proclamation of Rebirth in my deck. Right now I'm running three and one Ranger, and it is almost always game over when I resolve Proc, regardless of board state prior to Proc'ing.
I completely agree with you on the power of Orzhov Charm. It's the same reason I like to keep at least two Proclamation of Rebirth in my deck. Right now I'm running three and one Ranger, and it is almost always game over when I resolve Proc, regardless of board state prior to Proc'ing.
I love it. I hate losing Ranger but I find its just to hard to cram it all in the same deck. To be fair I often switch back and forth in paper. On MTGO I only own the cards for the W/b version but I never feel like I'm at a disadvantage. It takes some getting used to though. Adding Orzhov Charm doesn't feel wierd but not having Ranger does. Despite how similar they are Spectral Procession and Lingering Souls actually play quite differently I've found, mostly because of the way they interact with the Sisters. You go from potentially gaining six life to maybe gaining 4. On the other hand if you have an Ajani its better. Its just got a wide variance.
Caves of Kolios: If you take 2 damage its the same as a shockland but it is possible to never take damage and only tap for colorless. I want to reduce unnecessary life loss as much as possible. Isolated Chapel: Sucks in multiples in your opening hand, pretty much an auto-mulligan depending on if you have Squawks or not. It does no damage though which is key. Swamp: Not there for fixing actually. Its there to take advantage of opposing Path to Exile. Orzhov Charm: Replaced Ranger of Eos. Recurssion and Removal Linger Souls: Replaced Spectral Procession. Slower and you run the risk of your opponent killing off your Sister's before you can get full benefit from both halves. Otherwise it is more resiliant against sweepers and represents 8-12 power (1 or 2 anthems) vs 6-9 power for Procession (1 or 2 anthems). Just watchout for Scavenging Ooze. Spear of Heliod: Replaced Plains. Without Ranger my max curve goes from 4 down to 3. Figured I could run a little light (like Goblins or Merfolk which have a similar curve). I run the Spear because anthems are good with tokens and Squawks. Anthems also turn out Sisters into a worth while fight force. The Spear tends to discourage attacking if I have mana up, even on an open board. Soul Sisters maintains a high enough life total that even a couple hits from a Goyf is sustainable. You can stand the hits more than they can stand to lose the Goyf. Sometimes just the threat is enough to hold back an attack that might disable Serra. Its miserable in multiples and most of the time HotP is better but it does do work. I would be open to swapping it for something else, even a main deck Ghost Quarter, if something better came along. Chalice of Life: Floater slot. I've been playing a lot of control online, specifically UWR. Chalice is nearly impossible for them to deal with and represents a very real and scary clock. Probably good enough as a 2 of in the board if you run it at all. It sucks in most matchups. Duress: Good in any control matchup including UWx, Junk, and Jund to grab removal usually as that's the only thing I care about in those decks.
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as much as i like black and red, splashing green seemed relevant for adding time of need
with that i can find what i think is legendary utility, however what are your opinions of such options that i am listing. I might be making an error on some of them in thinking they might be helpful to the deck as mainboard toolbox or sideboard.
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Ok guys this deck is insane! A month ago I managed to save up to get it in paper after testing it vigorously online and I have to say this deck is free wins all around. So far I've taken it to 4 30+ people tournaments and haven't lost a match yet (did split finals in 2 of those events). Here's a few match up analysis from my experience:
<snip> (for space)
While I do feel like the deck is strong and has a lot of good sideboard options I do not necessarily believe it is as strong versus the field as you have experienced. If it were it would be wrecking the format right now and it isn't.
I do agree that we are strong versus Burn game 1 and Kor Firewalker is an All-Star game two but he is a fairly narrow, and therefor meta specific, answer.
Affinity is really fast and the only thing we can do that is that fast is nut draw. Stony Silence or Kataki are very good options and vastly improve the matchup post board though so that's good.
Pod is a tough one. They play a lot of strong value creatures that can win via beatdown even without their combo. They also run a decent toolbox of hate maindeck as well. Suppression Field works well here because it hurts pod and the combo but again, they can still just go mid-range beat down and rock the colors to Abrupt Decay our Anthems which hurts the most.
Jund is a lot like the Pod (Melira flavor) matchup but with a lot more removal. Again Abrupt Decay is our worst enemy though Brave the Elements helps against that but again that's a fairly narrow answer. I'd say this matchup is probably 40/60 or 30/70 in their favor both pre and post board unless you pull an Auriok Champion. Of course Auriok Champion is an absolute house against this matchup but its still just a 2/2 and that takes a long time to kill the opponent. In the mean time they are nuking your anthems, sisters, and ascendants left and right. If you can stick an anthem and a champion you are okay though.
UWR is laughably weak to Chalice of Life in my experience. Again that is a fairly narrow answer so it doesn't show up often in sideboars. Auriok Champion or Kor Firewalker are good here though. Supreme Verdict still gets them as does Vapor Snag if they want to run that plus counters like Spell Pierce so that's a thing. Honestly if your meta is heavy on this deck, which I doubt because its good but not that good, keep a couple Chalices in the board and bring them in over your ascendants.
And then there is Tron. Ghost Quarter helps but only so much. Just go as fast as you can and hold up your Paths. U-Tron is even worse because of treasure mage.
The rest of your analysis I will agree with however.
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[quote from="user_853146 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/490942-soul-sisters?comment=905"]I never mentioned Kor Firewalker, and I don't think you need one sideboard, since it depends on your opponents casting spells to gain life.
Just play Auriok Champion x4 maindeck, it beats so many matchups. Pod can't kill it, so they can't really race you effectively.
Perhaps you're playing a different list than mine? I'm playing 10 sisters main including the aurioks so I find myself with a lot of life and a lot of time to draw answers and threats usually. If you don't play all 10 perhaps try it out and post your results.[/ quote]
You're right. You didn't mention Kor Firewalker, I did. He doesn't see enough talk mostly because of how good Auriok Champion is but the difference is relevant against UWR control. They don't play a lot of creatures in general and while Auriok Champion is still a challenge for them to remove, the fact that Kor Firewalker gains you life as they try and remove your guys is a thing. I've had situations where my opponent's attempt to remove Ajani's Pridemate or Serra Ascendant has fizzled because the trigger from Kor Firewalker put them out of burn range. Again, Auriok Champion is better in every other matchup where you would want pro-red but against UWR, Kor Firewalker is better.
In my list I only run 8 Sisters and if I were to change my list I would simply swap the Attendant's for Champions rather than try to add them. Also, the list I play most often is a W/B list and having WW on turn 2 is occasionally an issue. There is one major contention to Champion that is worth note. First it is not fetchable with Ranger or recurrable or bouncable by Orzhov Charm. That can limit the usefulness of those spells. However if your meta is loaded with Jund decks, by all means play it. Against Junk Pod lists Mirran Crusader could be an option, its used by some of the people the B/W tokens thread. Basically Champion is a meta call, really good when its good, okay when its not, and anti-synergistic with a couple other core cards at its worst. Don't get me wrong, I definitely think it is one of our strongest sideboard cards but I don't think its an auto-include in the main deck because of its interaction with Ranger.
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-Anonymous
This is why I splashed black for Orzhov Charm. If you compare the Charm to Dismember it offers additional utility and is roughly the same life cost to remove something like a Tarmo though it does cost 1 more mana. I have seen lists run Dismember in the board. I'll be honest I love having the additional removal option to help push through lethal. Its kind of a security blanket sure but making a 6/6 Flying Lifelink instant speed blocker really screws with peoples combat math too. They nuke your Ascendant thinking they have shut you down and can swing in to drop your life total to deactivate future Ascendants and you turn their plan against them. Sure you trade a card but your board position is better for it. Not to mention the fact that you have your Ascendent sans-summoning sickness ready to swing again on your turn.
The last time I suggested a splash I was nearly crucifide. I like your strategy though. I splashed black for additional removal. A lot of the cases you mentioned need or benefit from having removal in hand. I run seven pieces and while that's not exactly control heavy it let's me be more liberal with them when I need to. Orzhov Charm costs life, but so does Dismember most of the time, and I'd rather lose 1-4 life than lose the game.
I opted for Lingering Souls and an additional anthem main board for the control matchup. I've seen people run Chalice of Life/Death in the board for control. I've considered it to bring in over Ajani's Pridemate. A turn 2 Martyr, pop it on their endstep, then drop a Chalice and flip it immediately on turn 3 means they need to find a way to remove it or win on by turn 6. That seems pretty good. Though I suppose running black means I could also side in Thoughtsieze or probably even Duress to keep my life total in check. I just loathe running non-white cards because of Martyr but I suppose Chalice isn't white. It does however gain us life in some capacity and represents a very threatening clock.
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I own this deck both online and in paper. The main deck is the same on and off except the lands. Online is a much more budget version simply because its so expensive to pay for two copies of everything. I mostly just use the online environment to practice for paper FNMs. This will be relevant in my report.
4 Orzhov Guildgates
4 Swamp
12 Plains
CREATURES (24)
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Soul Warden
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Path to Exile
3 Orzhov Charm
4 Lingering Souls
4 Honor of the Pure
1 Spear of Heliod
3 Duress
4 Kor Firewalker
2 Chalice of Life
I don't remember the rest of the sideboard.
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Caves of Kolios
2 Swamps
12 Plains
CREATURES (24)
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Soul Warden
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Path to Exile
3 Orzhov Charm
4 Lingering Souls
4 Honor of the Pure
1 Spear of Heliod
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Auriok Champion
3 Duress
3 ???
2 Chalice of Life
As for the number of black sources, Honestly it is almost too many. The Isolated Chapels are perfect because I can't even use a black source until turn 2 and normally don't want it until at least 4 which is the earliest I would using the flashback on Lingering Souls. Fortunately the deck is not terribly color hungry so Caves of Kolios usually isn't a liability. Having the basic swamps is for matchups where the opponent is running Path to Exile. Its an opportunity to fix my mana.
I played several matches but only two are of any real interest (read as: the opponent didn't quit after the first two rounds). The first was against some kind of Junk list. It actually reminded me of Jund but swap red out in favor of white. The second was against WUR Control. This was actually a really fun match.
Junk 1-1
So against the Junk deck, I didn't take notes so this is from memory. I remember the hand I took game 1 was pretty okay. It was something like plains, plains, Soul Warden, Ajani's Pridemate, Path to Exile, Martyr of Sands, Orzhov Charm. I started with a Plains and Warden into his fetch for a G/B Shock. Turn 2 I dropped an Ajani's Pridemate which immediately became a 3/3 and met a Path. It was at this point that I realized I had not added any black sources to the deck other than the 4 guildgates I just happened to have. During this game I never saw a black source despite the fact that he used 3 Paths on my guys so the charm was dead in my hand. Anyway, this match went to turn 5 with him Pathing nearly everything I dropped. I drew an Honor of the Pure, a Spear, Lingering Souls, and a bunch of land despite only running 20 in the deck. I eventually ended with a Lingering Souls on board with an Honor of the Pure and a Spear of Heliod to his field of Courser of Kruphix, a bob, and something else. He top decked an abrupt decay to nuke my Spear and I ran out of gas unable to flashback Lingering Souls. A few short turns later it was over.
Game 2 he mulliganed to 5 against my nut draw of turn 1 Serra to turn 2 Martyr. He conceeded on turn 3.
We didn't get to play a game 3 because he quit after that =\.
WUR Control 1-1-1 (He D/C with a precarious position on field. I think I would have one but I hate to assume)
Against American control I had fixed my land base and added 4 Swamps. This helped, needless to say. Having a set of basics, even as a 1 of for each color, is so useful against any deck that runs Path or Ghost Quarter. I don't care how many colors you run, you are making your opponent's cards better by not running at least 1 basic of each color.
I don't remember a ton of details about this match but a couple things that were relevant. Early in game 1 I had a sister and an ascendant on the field and a Squak and Charm in hand. I was having a shockingly hard time getting above that 30 life mark. I had played a Martyr turn 1 to have it immediately Path'd too which I grabbed a free black source. Eventually it became a super grindy war between him Helix, Bolt, and Snap helixing pretty much anything I lay down. He blew all of his removal trying to remove my "engine" before I landed by Serra. He Cryptic Command bounced it twice but couldn't find a hard answer for it and didn't play any sweepers in all three games. I'm not sure if he even had them. We traded swings back and forth with an Honor of the Pure on the field. Eventually he managed to nuke the Serra and swing in with some kind of blue flying creature, I want to say a token from Hour of Need but I could be wrong. Anyway I Charmed back the Serra on his turn to block the token. On my turn I turned in with a Squak and Serra buffed by Honor. Next turn he was dead.
Its hard for me to recall the details (I had a couple of beers and it was late) but I remember loving the Charm. Basically I always had 1 removal in hand at all times between Charm and Path. Having that removal made quite the difference. I didn't always have to use it but I always had a way to push damage through. At one Point I even Charmed a Celestial Colonade against the WUR control which shut him down for the game. The life loss sucks and while I didn't know for sure that taking out his manland would shut him down I knew that it would open up for me to swing. I went from 35 to 31 life from it but he could have easiliy bolted, helixed, or snapped either to turn of my ascendant but conversly he could have outright killed my ascendant the same way if I blocked with it in order to kill it that way. Having the answer guaranteed me a few games even if I never actually had to use it I knew that even if the opponent did try and drop a chump or stabalize I could shut that down.
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It used to. I've seen it in old sideboard lists. The problem with it is not that it is bad but that it doesn't do enough. It doesn't make any of our weaker matchups better. It doesn't improve the matchup against Combo, Tron, or Affinity. It might help a little against control or Jund but we already do pretty well against those matchups.
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4 lingering souls
3 brain maggot
4 soul warden
4 auriok champion
4 tidehollow sculler
4 magus of the moon
4 blood moon
3 lightning helix
3 orzhov charm
20 land
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Once you start testing, I'd love to hear your results.
I'm a UB Tezzeret player and as often as I've heard about this deck, I've never really played against it nor with it. My question is this:
1) What are the differences between Soul Sisters and Martyr Proc? I understand the decks are very similar, but one runs Proclamation of Rebirth main? Is that the only thing?
2) If the 2 decks are different, what are your reasons for running Soul Sisters over Martyr Proc?
3) Also, is there a good list of WB Soul Sisters? I want to use Athreos, Orzhov Charm, and such. I think maybe 6-8 removal spells is necessary for a lot of the match ups.
Thanks!
1: MarytrProc is a life gain central combo deck that utilizes Proclamation of Rebirth to gain massive amounts of life with Martyr of Sands. This is to ensure that its Serra Ascendants are always 6/6s. Most MartyrProc lists splash black for Vizkopa Guildmage and Orzhov Charm. At its heart, MartyrProc is a combo deck using lifegain to stay alive long enough to kill with Ascendants or Vizkopa Guildmages.
Soul Sisters is a synergy based white weenies aggro deck with a lifegain subtheme. It prefers incremental lifegain multiple times a turn as opposed to simply massive amounts of lifegain. Soul Sister's plan is to play a bunch of threats that either grow because of lifegain or are mana efficient while using its large amount of life as a buffer rather than blocking. Soul Sisters is an aggro-midrange deck.
2: Soul Sisters is far more consistent and faster than MartyrProc. It uses the card advantage generated from Ranger of Eos and Squadron Hawk more efficiently. Its much easier to disrupt MartyrProc's game plan than it is Soul Sisters as it has a lot more redundancy.
3: If you search through the thread there are people testing out Orzhov Sisters. Splashing black takes away from the consistency of the deck which is one of its main draws but it does allow for more removal and the use of discard.
-Anonymous
I run 4 marsh flat so I hit moon effects once i've secured a basic swamp and plains, my regret is I don't have anything that takes advantage of all of the sacred foundry godless shrine blood crypt that have been turned into solid mountains. be nice if one of these creatures had fire breathing. champion could be switched over to souls attendant for ease of mana base.
maybe I should cut 2 magus for 4th orzhov charm and lightning helix?
my other major concern is what to use for card draw?
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I don't think 8 removal is totally necessary in the deck, but I think 5-6 moon effects might be a little smoother for sure.
I always want to run Dark Confidant in a sisters build, though there is a ton of dangerous stuff that you could flip in your build. Maybe Mentor of the Meek, since you don't have the anthems, so most of your creatures will hit it? (Mentor and Norin could be a delicious combo, as well.)
What do people think about a few Cloudshift in this deck? Retriggering search effects and sister triggers while dodging targeting removal seems more interesting than Brave The Elements, if nothing else.
So I'd like to address this point, or maybe clarify possibly. The version I typically run is a B/W version splashing black for only Orzhov Charm and Lingering Souls. Other than that the deck is fairly stock with one other minor change. Because I do not run Ranger of Eos (Charm replaces Ranger) I also have a lower curve topping out at 3 cmc for Lingering Souls. I removed 1 land and added 1 Spear of Heliod. I typically don't talk about my results or experiences because running anything other than mono-W sisters is pretty taboo. That being said I'd like to talk a little bit about the differences.
First off I'd like to say that the mono-W version is probably the best in any unknown meta. It is consistent, strong, and has awesome sideboard options for pretty much any deck. It takes some of the best things about B/W Tokens (Anthems + effecient threats) and mixes in some of the explovness of RDW (T1: Serra into T2: Martyr) but adds in reliable lifegain that makes it very resilient. The major disadvantage of the deck is the quality of card advantage engines it has. Planeswalkers like Liliana of the Veil produce far more card advantage than Squadron Hawks or Ranger of Eos.
Technically if you are going to splash an off color in a deck it should fix some kind of otherwise inherint disadvantage the deck has. Black could supply that but then you start taking away from Martyr. It does open up options such as Bob, Liliana of the Viel, Thoughtsize, and so forth which are some of the most powerful cards in the format. Personally, I wanted to focus on just running things that were white so I kept it to Orzhov Charm and Lingering Souls and not Bob. Orzhov Charm adds removal to a deck that otherwise runs the bare minimum. I found that I often needed more ways to interact with my opponent. Orzhov Charm hurts our life total but its something we can handle better than most decks and other than Tarmogoyf there really isn't much that hurts that bad anyway. Orzhov charm also does a mediocre Ranger of Eos impersonation by letting us grab a 1 drop out of the yard, and at instant speed. Where Ranger costs 5 to put a new Ascendant on the field (4 for eos, 1 for the Ascendant), Charm only takes 2. I have won games because I was able to flash a dead Ascendant out of the yard to block and then swing for lethal on my turn. On the other hand Eos provides 3 bodies and is big enough to be a threat himself. There are circumstances with the Charm that you hit 4 mana and have not had an Ascendant die or you lost it to a Path or Scavenger Ooze in which Eos is nearly always better (except it can't remove the Ooze so you better hope you can go over the top so yet another trade off). Orzhov Charm makes the game 1 better against Merfolk, Robots, and other similar decks, becuase of the amount of removal we have.
Lingering Souls is good against Jund or other decks that run Thoughtsieze or Liliana of the Veil. It is an aweful discard target but because it can produce so many guys it helps make up for the fact that it encourages them to grab something else. Splitting the tokens up over multiple turns does hurt Windbrisk Heights so I do not run that in the B/W build. However splitting them up over multiple turns also makes sweepers less effective which is relevant against control and some burn decks depending on whats in their board. Spectral Procession gets a LOT better though when you have a couple Sisters and an unactive Serra. Procession is 6 life and Lingering is only 4 and trust me, that matters. Lingering is 8 over two turns but that's an eternity in Modern.
With these small changes there isn't much difference in the consistency of the deck. Your lines of play are essentially the same even on turn 4 assuming you have any 1 relavent 1 drop in your yard. The difference is you can drop a HotP and recur a Sister, Martyr, or Serra in the same turn. I find the only note worthy issue of consistency is the innate difference between running a multi-color deck and running a mono-color deck. Mono mana is always more consistent no matter how well built your mana base is. I'm not saying this version is better and in fact it plays very similarly to the mono-W version but after having played both, other than the mana base, I wouldn't say there are any consistency issues that you wouldn't experience in the mono-W version. It just depends on how far you take your splash whatever color it is.
tl;dr If you are going to splash in Soul Sisters just be careful how far you take it.
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I love it. I hate losing Ranger but I find its just to hard to cram it all in the same deck. To be fair I often switch back and forth in paper. On MTGO I only own the cards for the W/b version but I never feel like I'm at a disadvantage. It takes some getting used to though. Adding Orzhov Charm doesn't feel wierd but not having Ranger does. Despite how similar they are Spectral Procession and Lingering Souls actually play quite differently I've found, mostly because of the way they interact with the Sisters. You go from potentially gaining six life to maybe gaining 4. On the other hand if you have an Ajani its better. Its just got a wide variance.
Of course:
4 Caves of Kolios
4 Isolated Chapel
10 Plains
2 Swamp
CREATURES (20)
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Squadron Hawks
4 Path to Exile
3 Orzhov Charm
4 Lingering Souls
4 Honor of the Pure
1 Spear of Heliod
3 Stony Silence
3 Suppression Field
3 Rest in Peace
3 Chalice of Life
3 Duress
Quick Card discussion:
Caves of Kolios: If you take 2 damage its the same as a shockland but it is possible to never take damage and only tap for colorless. I want to reduce unnecessary life loss as much as possible.
Isolated Chapel: Sucks in multiples in your opening hand, pretty much an auto-mulligan depending on if you have Squawks or not. It does no damage though which is key.
Swamp: Not there for fixing actually. Its there to take advantage of opposing Path to Exile.
Orzhov Charm: Replaced Ranger of Eos. Recurssion and Removal
Linger Souls: Replaced Spectral Procession. Slower and you run the risk of your opponent killing off your Sister's before you can get full benefit from both halves. Otherwise it is more resiliant against sweepers and represents 8-12 power (1 or 2 anthems) vs 6-9 power for Procession (1 or 2 anthems). Just watchout for Scavenging Ooze.
Spear of Heliod: Replaced Plains. Without Ranger my max curve goes from 4 down to 3. Figured I could run a little light (like Goblins or Merfolk which have a similar curve). I run the Spear because anthems are good with tokens and Squawks. Anthems also turn out Sisters into a worth while fight force. The Spear tends to discourage attacking if I have mana up, even on an open board. Soul Sisters maintains a high enough life total that even a couple hits from a Goyf is sustainable. You can stand the hits more than they can stand to lose the Goyf. Sometimes just the threat is enough to hold back an attack that might disable Serra. Its miserable in multiples and most of the time HotP is better but it does do work. I would be open to swapping it for something else, even a main deck Ghost Quarter, if something better came along.
Chalice of Life: Floater slot. I've been playing a lot of control online, specifically UWR. Chalice is nearly impossible for them to deal with and represents a very real and scary clock. Probably good enough as a 2 of in the board if you run it at all. It sucks in most matchups.
Duress: Good in any control matchup including UWx, Junk, and Jund to grab removal usually as that's the only thing I care about in those decks.
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with that i can find what i think is legendary utility, however what are your opinions of such options that i am listing. I might be making an error on some of them in thinking they might be helpful to the deck as mainboard toolbox or sideboard.
norin the wary
linvala, keeper of silence
thalai,guardian of thaben
gaddock teeg
purphoros, god of the forge
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice the only legendary creature i can find that does waht a soul sister does. may not even be relevant.
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While I do feel like the deck is strong and has a lot of good sideboard options I do not necessarily believe it is as strong versus the field as you have experienced. If it were it would be wrecking the format right now and it isn't.
I do agree that we are strong versus Burn game 1 and Kor Firewalker is an All-Star game two but he is a fairly narrow, and therefor meta specific, answer.
Affinity is really fast and the only thing we can do that is that fast is nut draw. Stony Silence or Kataki are very good options and vastly improve the matchup post board though so that's good.
Pod is a tough one. They play a lot of strong value creatures that can win via beatdown even without their combo. They also run a decent toolbox of hate maindeck as well. Suppression Field works well here because it hurts pod and the combo but again, they can still just go mid-range beat down and rock the colors to Abrupt Decay our Anthems which hurts the most.
Jund is a lot like the Pod (Melira flavor) matchup but with a lot more removal. Again Abrupt Decay is our worst enemy though Brave the Elements helps against that but again that's a fairly narrow answer. I'd say this matchup is probably 40/60 or 30/70 in their favor both pre and post board unless you pull an Auriok Champion. Of course Auriok Champion is an absolute house against this matchup but its still just a 2/2 and that takes a long time to kill the opponent. In the mean time they are nuking your anthems, sisters, and ascendants left and right. If you can stick an anthem and a champion you are okay though.
UWR is laughably weak to Chalice of Life in my experience. Again that is a fairly narrow answer so it doesn't show up often in sideboars. Auriok Champion or Kor Firewalker are good here though. Supreme Verdict still gets them as does Vapor Snag if they want to run that plus counters like Spell Pierce so that's a thing. Honestly if your meta is heavy on this deck, which I doubt because its good but not that good, keep a couple Chalices in the board and bring them in over your ascendants.
And then there is Tron. Ghost Quarter helps but only so much. Just go as fast as you can and hold up your Paths. U-Tron is even worse because of treasure mage.
The rest of your analysis I will agree with however.
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Just play Auriok Champion x4 maindeck, it beats so many matchups. Pod can't kill it, so they can't really race you effectively.
Perhaps you're playing a different list than mine? I'm playing 10 sisters main including the aurioks so I find myself with a lot of life and a lot of time to draw answers and threats usually. If you don't play all 10 perhaps try it out and post your results.[/ quote]
You're right. You didn't mention Kor Firewalker, I did. He doesn't see enough talk mostly because of how good Auriok Champion is but the difference is relevant against UWR control. They don't play a lot of creatures in general and while Auriok Champion is still a challenge for them to remove, the fact that Kor Firewalker gains you life as they try and remove your guys is a thing. I've had situations where my opponent's attempt to remove Ajani's Pridemate or Serra Ascendant has fizzled because the trigger from Kor Firewalker put them out of burn range. Again, Auriok Champion is better in every other matchup where you would want pro-red but against UWR, Kor Firewalker is better.
In my list I only run 8 Sisters and if I were to change my list I would simply swap the Attendant's for Champions rather than try to add them. Also, the list I play most often is a W/B list and having WW on turn 2 is occasionally an issue. There is one major contention to Champion that is worth note. First it is not fetchable with Ranger or recurrable or bouncable by Orzhov Charm. That can limit the usefulness of those spells. However if your meta is loaded with Jund decks, by all means play it. Against Junk Pod lists Mirran Crusader could be an option, its used by some of the people the B/W tokens thread. Basically Champion is a meta call, really good when its good, okay when its not, and anti-synergistic with a couple other core cards at its worst. Don't get me wrong, I definitely think it is one of our strongest sideboard cards but I don't think its an auto-include in the main deck because of its interaction with Ranger.
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