First off, By this logic you should never play Ranger of Eos. It's a card that you only want to play mid-lategame to refuel because you haven't already won the game. And yet people play Ranger a lot. Obviously you shouldn't play Squadron Hawk, because it's a way to refill your hand and continue to put on threats but inefficient for the mana so you don't want to play it on turn 2. But that is also a cornerstone card in the deck. You aren't playing burn. The game is expect to go past 3 turns. And your card choices should reflect that.
Second, you're forgetting the most important this deck does. Attack. There's a reason you run cards like Honor of the Pure. Its so that your otherwise utility 1/1s suddenly become legitimate attacking threats in decent numbers. So you have 3 sisters, staring down a goyf. You can either attack and lose a sister, or do nothing and wait for the inevitable loss(because evidently you cut all your cards that are useful past turn 3). So you attack, and a sister dies. If you aren't applying pressure, then you're probably doing something wrong. And if you do apply pressure, you often have to take losses.
Third, over half the meta runs red, decks that don't usually run black(which you may have heard, also has a bit of removal). But literally almost every deck has a very strong way to remove early creatures, if they didn't, Zoo and Merfolk would be obliterating the format. And there's really only one(path) which doesn't help.
First off, By this logic you should never play Ranger of Eos. It's a card that you only want to play mid-lategame to refuel because you haven't already won the game. And yet people play Ranger a lot. Obviously you shouldn't play Squadron Hawk, because it's a way to refill your hand and continue to put on threats but inefficient for the mana so you don't want to play it on turn 2. But that is also a cornerstone card in the deck. You aren't playing burn. The game is expect to go past 3 turns. And your card choices should reflect that.
I think you misunderstood, because comparing proc to Ranger and/or Hawk is not what he ment and it's a pretty silly to compare those. You can always cast Ranger and get use out of it. Same goes for Hawk. Those are 100% useful always. Proc however needs 1/1 critters in the graveyard. Which isn't always the case. Period. Like I stated earlier, in certain match ups it is an utter dead draw. Especially since the format has a lot of popular combo decks running around. You'd probably be better off using it as a SB card. Anyway, somehow we are still discussing Proc vs Spec while you play them both in your build. So it's not really a discussion...
Second, you're forgetting the most important this deck does. Attack. There's a reason you run cards like Honor of the Pure. Its so that your otherwise utility 1/1s suddenly become legitimate attacking threats in decent numbers. So you have 3 sisters, staring down a goyf. You can either attack and lose a sister, or do nothing and wait for the inevitable loss(because evidently you cut all your cards that are useful past turn 3). So you attack, and a sister dies. If you aren't applying pressure, then you're probably doing something wrong. And if you do apply pressure, you often have to take losses.
Hmm. I think you might be playing the deck in a way that it's not really working to its full potential. At least not all the time. Soul Sisters is not an aggro deck. If an opponent has Goyf and I have three sisters and no removal, I indeed do not attack. Three sisters on the board means 3 life each time they bring a creature into play. They can then attack for, lets say 5-7 damage for instance. We only lost 2 life. Our turn, we cast two creatures and gain 6 life. See where I'm getting at? The sisters don't act as a pressure force, they act as a control force. Until we drop our Hawks, Ascendant or Spectral + Honor, and start racing them until they are dead (they simply cannot block flying critters). By the time we have three sisters on the board, we're probably sitting comfy with around 20 life and probably more, while the opponent sits at a sad 15- life (take into account the greediness in most decks' mana bases), so why would I want to attack with sisters early and lose them? Why would I want to give up three slots in the deck to support that tactic if it's not the right line of play? Besides, aggro decks are a pretty easy matchup anyway. Even if I had Procs in my SB I wouldn't bring them in against aggro.
Sure, Soul Sisters can play like an aggro deck sometimes, but from my experience this rarely happens, unless we are racing Tron or combo.
Third, over half the meta runs red, decks that don't usually run black(which you may have heard, also has a bit of removal). But literally almost every deck has a very strong way to remove early creatures, if they didn't, Zoo and Merfolk would be obliterating the format. And there's really only one(path) which doesn't help.
If I know they play removal I know when to cast my sisters and when to keep one or two on hand in stead of dropping them all. Like I said in an earlier post about playing around control decks (and this goes for removal too): you can bait their removal. Sisters have a huge target on their head when it comes to removal, so let them kill one. We play martyrs and 6-8 sisters. Ascendant and pridemade are also huge targets for removal. Use it to bait their removal while protecting the sisters if needed. And there are many more ways to play around removal.
I agree with you that Proc is an option, but probably not in the 'standard' shell. To get use out of Proc 100% of the time, we would need more creatures that can sac themselves for profit. But you already made up your mind or so it seems, so it's probably useless trying to convince you (no offense btw, to each his own). If the card works for you then that is great :). Doesn't mean however that it is suddenly an auto-include.
I have played...probably hundreds of games with this deck. I have not had a single one, not one, where I wanted to cast a proc and didn't have targets for it. Making an argument that you need things in your graveyard for it to work is like saying "Snapcaster is a bad card because sometimes your graveyard has no spells in it." Those cases are EXTREMELY few and far between. And the advantage you gain by being able to 3 for 1 easily is considerable. I never argued that it should be core. But if someone makes some objectively false statements as to why its bad, I'm going to challenge them. Especially considering that odds are that he(and probably you) have never actually run the deck with Proc and therefore are making very very skewed assumptions that are leading you to conclusions which don't hold true in reality. Saying what boils down to "Very few decks have answers to small creatures" is a pretty objectively false statement, and it was the basis of john's post.
But yeah, not trying to convince anyone. I was merely curious as to whether there was a specific problem with the card. A specific reason why these 2 decks which have soooooooo much overlap end up never overlapping on this specific card. And why it wasn't even mentioned in the primer. When I personally have had so much success with it(thought perhaps there was a specific matchup or couple of matchups I didn't see much in my area).
I have played...probably hundreds of games with this deck. I have not had a single one, not one, where I wanted to cast a proc and didn't have targets for it.
Making an argument that you need things in your graveyard for it to work is like saying "Snapcaster is a bad card because sometimes your graveyard has no spells in it." Those cases are EXTREMELY few and far between. And the advantage you gain by being able to 3 for 1 easily is considerable. I never argued that it should be core. But if someone makes some objectively false statements as to why its bad, I'm going to challenge them. Especially considering that odds are that he(and probably you) have never actually run the deck with Proc and therefore are making very very skewed assumptions that are leading you to conclusions which don't hold true in reality. Saying what boils down to "Very few decks have answers to small creatures" is a pretty objectively false statement, and it was the basis of john's post.
First of all, I think I already told you I've tested it. Second of all: Have you played hundreds of games without it? I have done both, since I've been playing this deck for many years in various forms across different formats. Why do you assume you are the only one testing an obvious card like that? You also completely ignore my point on how to play the deck, which I think you are not fully aware off if you are willing to run through Goyf with your sisters early game. I guess, if you are willing to do that, then yes you might need Proc to get the critters back that you needlessly lost.
The snapcaster comparison is laughable by the way. Snapcaster decks only have to burn of creatures and counter spells to fill their graveyard to make snapcaster useful. There is no way a graveyard is empty of a snapcaster player. You can't say the same for Proc, because it does happen you don't have 1/1 critters in the grave or only one. Don't tell me that is not true, because I've experienced it multiple times (against matchups like storm). And then there's Scavenging Ooze which is played a lot in the format. It not only becomes bigger by exiling your 1/1 critters, it also makes you Proc a complete dead draw. No thanks. All in all there would be too many matchups where you should board it out in games 2 and 3.
You forget one more important thing. Let's take the list I currently play:
We could cut 2 sisters and a martyr for 3x Proc. But that means cutting 3 creatures that can be targeted with it. We can cut Spectrals. I think I already explained why that is a bad idea. We could cut Rangers. Not an option for reasons already given. Ajani? Nope. Serra? Well, ofc not. Paths? Maybe. But in my opinion Paths are way way too important against a lot of matchups to cut them. Maybe a singular cut of each of those? Less than three rangers is not desirable, it's a key card in battling discard, removal, counters etc. Less than 4 spectrals? Tried it, and missed the fourth a lot. Because as been said many times, it is also a key card in the deck. I can go on and on :).
That leaves us with no room. And yes this is a very valid argument along side the many arguments I've given before. Let me be clear: This is the case for this build. I've said before that I could see a more dedicated Proc sisters build work.
But yeah, not trying to convince anyone. I was merely curious as to whether there was a specific problem with the card. A specific reason why these 2 decks which have soooooooo much overlap end up never overlapping on this specific card. And why it wasn't even mentioned in the primer. When I personally have had so much success with it(thought perhaps there was a specific matchup or couple of matchups I didn't see much in my area).
Well I think I answered your question in many ways already :). And that last part is probably true. I've played the deck for years against all sorts of decks and included Proc in the deck for a long time, and in the end I came to the conclusion that, although it is a good card and can be usefull, it is simply not a must play in that it is not really needed to win. It's like a win-more card, but really without the win. I found that it doesn't improve the overall match ups when compared to Procless lists.
Can you post your deck list? I'm curious what cards you play less copies of to be able to play Proc.
I have seen it stated several times in this thread that Martyr of Sands and Serra Ascendant sometimes just win you the game. But more often than not the Martyr is used to delay until pumped 1/1 fliers soar to victory. This has also been my experience. So I guess I'm wondering if it's even worth running Martyr and Ascendant. And if you take them out, you might as well take out Ranger of Eos, since she will have fewer targets and filling your hand is less valuable without Martyr. One obvious replacement is Lingering Souls, which leads you into territory that overlaps with the tokens deck. I haven't seen any tokens decks that run sisters + Pridemate -- is there a reason for this? The other possible replacements for Martyr + Ascendant + Ranger come from hatebears, which we already see in the soul sister lists that run a few Aven Mindcensors in the main as well as those lists that have been including Ethersworn Canonist in the side. Thalia isn't a great fit, but Leonin Arbiter seems like a good main deck choice once you remove Ranger [note to self: try "Crazy Cat Ladies" deck with sisters plus pridemate and arbiter]. Hero of Bladehold would also seem to merit consideration as both a token maker and an anthem [or Brimaz for the cat lady deck]. The number of times I have had a creature Snapcaster-Bolted (or worse, two creatures Snapcaster-Electrolyzed) makes me want to try Dryad Militant too.
I feel pretty confident that the times I win with a turned on Ascendant are rare enough that I would rather have either more tokens or more hatebears. What I'm having a harder time evaluating is the extra time that Martyr sometimes gives you -- is that more valuable than what these other cards could bring to the table? What about the threat of Ascendant? Do opponents play differently because they are afraid of not being able to answer an Ascendant once you get to 30? I don't really see much opportunity for that nor have I experienced it, but I could be missing something. They can't profitably remove Martyr. I guess they can kill Ascendant on sight (or counter her) even when you aren't close to 30 out of fear that you could drop and sac Martyr at any time, so you can use Ascendant to bait removal or a counter before playing the threat you want to stick. Alternatively, they could direct burn to your face rather than your creatures or attack unprofitably in order to keep you away from 30. I can't say that I've noticed that behavior.
What I want more than anything is Pridemate 5-8. Or a way to tutor for or recur Pridemate. T1 Soul Warden into T2 Pridemate is so powerful unless it eats a bolt, which it always does.
About Proc: I agree with idm, it's not that proc is bad in any way (besides being occasionally a dead card early game and against random grave hate), it's just that it's the worst card out of our options. I sideboarded Immortal Servitude for a while for a similar effect, but in matchups where they matter, you usually have better stuff to side in or want to keep all your treats, it didn't saw much play unless I expected Pyroclasm (mainly Tron, which baits a lot of our hate cards)
About Martyr/Ascendant: I agree that the combo isn't that reliable and worth it, especially with 3 Martyr/4 Ascendant. Thing is that, by itself, martyr win games by giving you more time vs aggro.
The same can't be said for Ascendant. It's quite low impact when you have less then 30 life. In a variant where you gain less life and are less likely to activate it, it'd be the first card I'd cut (leaving 1-2 for Ranger tutoring). It's a 1 mana who wins game though when it works.
Related to this, since I upped my Honor of the Pure count to 4 and noticed the deck getting much better, I almost always want to draw more and a 5-6th Anthem could be worth it. I'm debating between: Path of Bravery vs Spear of Heliod
Path of Bravery can be really good at activating Ascendant, and getting more Pridemate triggers, as well as good racing. It might be that little bit of additional life gain my deck is longing for. Doesn't boost if you are in trouble though. Feels a bit win-more even though being between 20-30 is quite common.
Spear of Heliod also looks pretty awesome at killing Goyfs and other big beaters (take that Emrakul!)
Related to this, since I upped my Honor of the Pure count to 4 and noticed the deck getting much better, I almost always want to draw more and a 5-6th Anthem could be worth it. I'm debating between: Path of Bravery vs Spear of Heliod
Path of Bravery can be really good at activating Ascendant, and getting more Pridemate triggers, as well as good racing. It might be that little bit of additional life gain my deck is longing for. Doesn't boost if you are in trouble though. Feels a bit win-more even though being between 20-30 is quite common.
Spear of Heliod also looks pretty awesome at killing Goyfs and other big beaters (take that Emrakul!)
Path of Bravery hadn't hit my radar until today. Was wondering if it would be a worthwhile two-of in this deck. Spear of Heliod as a two-of is also interesting.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
What about a single signal pest ? Could function as a tutorable Honor, is cheap and triggers the sisters. A singleton won't interfere too much with martyrs. It's a turn slower though in giving a bonus.
Now that you mention it, Signal Pest might be better then Mikaeus, the Lunarch in many situations.
+It attacks in the air (damage/turn = number of Honors)
+It's active on the second turn like Mikaeus
+It costs only 1 mana, while Mikaeus is at least 2
-Mikaeus can survive Bolt if you play it for 5+
-Mikaeus protects your creatures with thoughness
-Mikaeus can grind until it dies and doesn't need to attack.
One situation that often arise is either turn 2-3 Hawk or turn 3 Procession into T4 Ranger, a situation where you have 2-3 flyers to attack with to end the game as soon as possible. While Mikaeus does as much damage without Honors (and often more on multiple turns), you'll fetch 2 things with Ranger and will want to play a 1 mana creature along with him T5. If you also want to keep a mana up for Path because of Splinter Twin for example, minimizing the amount of mana you spend by not casting a big Mikaeus might be worthwhile.
Mikaeus is really fringe. Signal Pest might be much better by being more castable when you draw it early though.
Am I the guy who has to point out that Signal Pest does absolutely nothing alone? Battlecry gives other attacking creatures the +1/+0 so its still a 0/1. It gains no power and toughness boost from Honor of the Pure because it isn't white. I myself am not a fan of either Pest or Mikaeus, the Lunarch as both seem like win more targets. They won't pull you ahead if you are behind or give you extra time to draw into an answer.
Why is there suddenly an interest in Proclamation of Rebirth again? The main purpose of Proc is to recur Martyr of Sands (sometimes Serra Ascendant) not Attendant or Warden. Its good if you are trying to gain large amounts of life (which is what the Martyr-Proc deck tries to do. Soul Sisters prefers to repeatably gain life rather than in large amounts at once.) Also its pretty rare for this deck to have multiple targets for Proc on turn 3. Proc gets better as the game goes on. As an aggro-midrange deck you don't really want long games. Against Control, it may be a good card as you can Forecast it to be uncounterable and get back some creatures if they tap out. Immortal Servitude also serves this function but is more flexible in targets despite costing more.
Spear of Heliod vs Path of Bravery. I am firmly in the Spear camp. I much prefer an unconditional +1/+1 to one that may grow my creatures. Most games I tend to hover between 16-24 life, I don't want to risk not having the +1/+1. I have been hurt by my opponent bolting me down below 30 midcombat to kill my Ascendants. The removal ability actually proved useful for me in a few games taking down some Scoozes and a Goyf. We only have 4 pieces of spot removal, its always nice to have more. (Bonus in that it can actually kill Emrakul if you survive the hit with enough mana)
I've said this many times and I'll say it again: I win far more games with Spirit Tokens and Squadron Hawks than with Pridemates and Ascendants.
Though I did attend GP Richmond I don't think I'll be posting a full tournament report because 1: it would be really, really long and 2: I don't remember too much in detail. I went 3-5-1 and obviously did not qualify for day two.
Wins: Affinity, Jund, MonoBlack aggro
Losses: UR Twin, Melira Pod, UW Control Brew, UWR Midrange, UW Gifts Tron
Ties: Melira Pod
I won against my creature based match ups and lost to Combo and Control. My Combo losses were mostly because after mulls to 4 and 5 I didn't draw into any of my 6-10 pieces of Combo hate. Control, I need to work on the matchup and figure out how to properly side against them. I had brought in Chalice of Life which proved pretty useless as it was far too slow and had little to no impact whatsoever. I am open for suggestions on how to beat Control decks as I am struggling to do so.
The MVP for the GP I would say were the Runed Halos I picked up on the advice of Patrick Chapin cutting Sundering Growths from the sideboard. They won me a game vs Twin, aided against Jund and most hilariously, completely destroyed the Monoblack deck as the only threat they seemed to draw into was Bloodghast. I had mostly picked them up for the Scapeshift and Storm match ups. They are actually good against almost every combo deck if you can blank their win condition. Unfortunately you can't name a Token so it won't stop Empty the Warrens You can also bring them in against Aggro decks just to mess with their creatures like I did against the Monoblack list. Naming their best creatures is always fun and acts as pseudo-removal essentially giving them defender.
Some highlights:
2 Pridemates with power and toughness over 4 million.
Making the Twin player dig down to about a dozen cards left in his deck to find enough Flame Slashes and Izzet Charms to kill all of my Sisters.
Bluffing my Pod opponent into agreeing to a draw even though he had me dead on board.
The aforementioned Runed Halo on Bloodghast.
Nearly half of my opponents having to read Squadron Hawk to see what it does.
Things I took away from the GP:
9 Rounds is a long time I missed so many triggers because I wasn't focusing enough. I actually forgot to attack against Twin one turn and that cost me the game. They found Splinter Twin to make infinite blocking Pestermites shortly afterwards. Iona, Shield of Emeria is a completly and utterly backbreaking card coming out of Gifts or UW Tron.
My Control matchup is horrid. People who have more experience playing vs Control I implore you to share your wisdom and strategies on how to beat those lists. My only wins against them were because I kept drawing into a constant source of threats and had more beaters than they had removal.
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How do you feel about it after playing? Would you say Auriok Champion and Kataki are overkill in their matchups which look quite favorable? I'm thinking of using 4 Rest in Peace with the resurgence of graveyard (Iona for instance)
Maybe this is more suited to the no Deathrite Shaman meta:
Kataki is replaced with more Stony Silence because the main problem card is Cranial Plating (especially with Infect Nexus)
Immortal Servitude because that's the first thing that came to mind when battling control.
We really need to look into more good cards to beat blue main and sideboard.
In regards to one of my posts days earlier, I did end up moving out O-Ring and Aven Mindcensor for 2 more Spectral Processions.
I went 2-1. Won against Faeries and Elves. Lost against Merfolk. The first game I lost against him was when I was flooded with lands and he drew 4 Path to Exile. Second game I lost was when he drew 4 Spreading Seas and got all my Plains. It was quite sad, really.
Faeries was rather tough. The guy in my LGS plays Grixis for Izzet Staticaster sometimes with Basilisk Collar. It's such a killer combo against my deck, but I managed to pull through.
My Control matchup is horrid. People who have more experience playing vs Control I implore you to share your wisdom and strategies on how to beat those lists. My only wins against them were because I kept drawing into a constant source of threats and had more beaters than they had removal.
First of all thanks for the report
I agree with you on signal pest, it was just a thought I had. I think a singleton could be worth testing though. I can't think of a situation where I only would have a signal pest on the board. The sole reason it COULD be played, is because it is tutorable.
On control: It's always going to be an enormous struggle, that's for sure. In my other posts on this page I do explain a little how I approach control decks. It's all about making them counter the less important cards so to speak. Once you can get Spectral out and an Honor of the Pure, you should be able to set a clock on the game. One thing I kind ignore against control matchups is our life gain engine. This may sound strange :P. They are probably going to counter it anyway, so no need to focus on it. The focus should be getting as much power on the field through their counterspells and removal. This means I rarely use martyr to gain life. Only exception being if I have a Serra n the board which I can activate by saccing Martyr and knowing for sure they can't remove serra in reaction. I use every creature I can to beat them down. Every creature that gets through their counters is a threat.
So baiting their counters is a really important thing to learn. Mostly I let them spill their counterspells on sisters. Those are just huge targets. I try to make the output of things I cast as big as possible. Maybe they have 4 untapped land, which could mean they're going to use Cryptic. In that case I first attack, maybe they want to spill Cryptic on tapping our creatures. After which we can cast anything we want (Ranger, Spectral etc.).
Then there is Tectonic Edge. Really important. Control is the reason I run it in stead of Ghost Quarter. As soon as they get to four land, there will be a time where they only have 2 untapped lands for instance. Kill one, go to combat step so their mana pool is emptied, and in the second mainphase, cast the thing you want to cast. Just make you cast either 1 drop creatures or 3+ drop cards to play around their spell snare. It also depends on how many cards they have in their hand.
Maybe the best way to say it is: Use cards like the sisters as 'discard' spells ;). Make them empty their hand by throwing as many threats on the board as possible. After which you have to time you Ranger of Eos at the right time so they can't counter it and fill your hand again.
I hope this will help a little. I'm still very much figuring out how to make the matchup even better, but it will always be a tough one I think. It's almost like playing poker. You have to make assumptions when they have like 3 cards in hand and 4 mana open. Do they have a cryptic? Maybe they leave 6 mana open, there is a cryptic in the graveyard and they haven't casted a Snapcaster yet. Big chance they'll go Snapcaster into Cryptic. When we make an assumption like this (we kind of have to), we can then try and play around it.
So watching their graveyard (what have they casted, and what can they use with Snapcaster), how many lands have they untapped and how do we think they'll use it, and how many cards they have at hand, is all important. One last thing. This is what I said about remand earlier in this threat:
There are much more of these kind of little interactions that are important. You know they run remand. So keeping that in mind, how useful is it for them to counter a one drop with Remand when you have three mana? Remand gets them through their deck faster, so what I do is, I cast a one drop. And another one. And then leave one mana open (also suggesting I might have a Path in my hand).
Then, when I don't mind them drawing a card off of Remand (because their hand is running empty for instance), I bate it out of their hand by casting a dangerous 2 drop for instance. If I have 4 mana, I'll just cast it again. If it's Spectral Procession (great card to bate Remands), I'll drop an extra sister or Soul Ascendant on the board.
I think in the end it is about trying to control the control player without them knowing it, if you know what I mean :).
Against control: Sword of Fire and Ice? The mana costs isn't that much of an issue in that matchup. We know how tons of 1/1 flyers go along with this card, but it also protects from their spells and draw cards. Very fast clock at 4 extra damage per turn as long as you have a creature.
Against control: Sword of Fire and Ice? The mana costs isn't that much of an issue in that matchup. We know how tons of 1/1 flyers go along with this card, but it also protects from their spells and draw cards. Very fast clock at 4 extra damage per turn as long as you have a creature.
T As mentioned above me: Rest in peace makes the matchup a lot less frustrating. Aven Mindcensor can be used to 'destroy' a land. The fact that SoFaI is non-white is something I don't like, since you need to have 2 or 3 in your board. It's also pretty easy to counter, and they probably will.
I know some people have used Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a way to combat control.
+ Constant source of creatures
+ way to make anything into a threat
+ kill all removal apart from Path to Exile if you can ult
+ protects our life by being a separate target
- Costs 4 mana
- destroyed by combat or burn
Getting it to resolve is quite a challenge but once there, seriously helps us and has an impact the turn it is played. The biggest issue is that it costs 4 mana and can be pretty easily countered.
Any users of Elspeth able to talk a bit more about her?
I'll be considering doing a 2-1 or 1-2 split on Tec-Edge/Ghost Quarter. Tec-Edge is better vs Control but GQ is better vs Tron both are hard match ups.
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Second, you're forgetting the most important this deck does. Attack. There's a reason you run cards like Honor of the Pure. Its so that your otherwise utility 1/1s suddenly become legitimate attacking threats in decent numbers. So you have 3 sisters, staring down a goyf. You can either attack and lose a sister, or do nothing and wait for the inevitable loss(because evidently you cut all your cards that are useful past turn 3). So you attack, and a sister dies. If you aren't applying pressure, then you're probably doing something wrong. And if you do apply pressure, you often have to take losses.
Third, over half the meta runs red, decks that don't usually run black(which you may have heard, also has a bit of removal). But literally almost every deck has a very strong way to remove early creatures, if they didn't, Zoo and Merfolk would be obliterating the format. And there's really only one(path) which doesn't help.
I think you misunderstood, because comparing proc to Ranger and/or Hawk is not what he ment and it's a pretty silly to compare those. You can always cast Ranger and get use out of it. Same goes for Hawk. Those are 100% useful always. Proc however needs 1/1 critters in the graveyard. Which isn't always the case. Period. Like I stated earlier, in certain match ups it is an utter dead draw. Especially since the format has a lot of popular combo decks running around. You'd probably be better off using it as a SB card. Anyway, somehow we are still discussing Proc vs Spec while you play them both in your build. So it's not really a discussion...
Hmm. I think you might be playing the deck in a way that it's not really working to its full potential. At least not all the time. Soul Sisters is not an aggro deck. If an opponent has Goyf and I have three sisters and no removal, I indeed do not attack. Three sisters on the board means 3 life each time they bring a creature into play. They can then attack for, lets say 5-7 damage for instance. We only lost 2 life. Our turn, we cast two creatures and gain 6 life. See where I'm getting at? The sisters don't act as a pressure force, they act as a control force. Until we drop our Hawks, Ascendant or Spectral + Honor, and start racing them until they are dead (they simply cannot block flying critters). By the time we have three sisters on the board, we're probably sitting comfy with around 20 life and probably more, while the opponent sits at a sad 15- life (take into account the greediness in most decks' mana bases), so why would I want to attack with sisters early and lose them? Why would I want to give up three slots in the deck to support that tactic if it's not the right line of play? Besides, aggro decks are a pretty easy matchup anyway. Even if I had Procs in my SB I wouldn't bring them in against aggro.
Sure, Soul Sisters can play like an aggro deck sometimes, but from my experience this rarely happens, unless we are racing Tron or combo.
If I know they play removal I know when to cast my sisters and when to keep one or two on hand in stead of dropping them all. Like I said in an earlier post about playing around control decks (and this goes for removal too): you can bait their removal. Sisters have a huge target on their head when it comes to removal, so let them kill one. We play martyrs and 6-8 sisters. Ascendant and pridemade are also huge targets for removal. Use it to bait their removal while protecting the sisters if needed. And there are many more ways to play around removal.
I agree with you that Proc is an option, but probably not in the 'standard' shell. To get use out of Proc 100% of the time, we would need more creatures that can sac themselves for profit. But you already made up your mind or so it seems, so it's probably useless trying to convince you (no offense btw, to each his own). If the card works for you then that is great :). Doesn't mean however that it is suddenly an auto-include.
But yeah, not trying to convince anyone. I was merely curious as to whether there was a specific problem with the card. A specific reason why these 2 decks which have soooooooo much overlap end up never overlapping on this specific card. And why it wasn't even mentioned in the primer. When I personally have had so much success with it(thought perhaps there was a specific matchup or couple of matchups I didn't see much in my area).
First of all, I think I already told you I've tested it. Second of all: Have you played hundreds of games without it? I have done both, since I've been playing this deck for many years in various forms across different formats. Why do you assume you are the only one testing an obvious card like that? You also completely ignore my point on how to play the deck, which I think you are not fully aware off if you are willing to run through Goyf with your sisters early game. I guess, if you are willing to do that, then yes you might need Proc to get the critters back that you needlessly lost.
The snapcaster comparison is laughable by the way. Snapcaster decks only have to burn of creatures and counter spells to fill their graveyard to make snapcaster useful. There is no way a graveyard is empty of a snapcaster player. You can't say the same for Proc, because it does happen you don't have 1/1 critters in the grave or only one. Don't tell me that is not true, because I've experienced it multiple times (against matchups like storm). And then there's Scavenging Ooze which is played a lot in the format. It not only becomes bigger by exiling your 1/1 critters, it also makes you Proc a complete dead draw. No thanks. All in all there would be too many matchups where you should board it out in games 2 and 3.
You forget one more important thing. Let's take the list I currently play:
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Martyr of Sands
3 Ranger of Eos
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Soul Warden
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Path to Exile
4 Spectral Procession
Land:
15 Plains
3 Tectonic Edge
3 Windbrisk Heights
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Ethersworn Canonist
We could cut 2 sisters and a martyr for 3x Proc. But that means cutting 3 creatures that can be targeted with it. We can cut Spectrals. I think I already explained why that is a bad idea. We could cut Rangers. Not an option for reasons already given. Ajani? Nope. Serra? Well, ofc not. Paths? Maybe. But in my opinion Paths are way way too important against a lot of matchups to cut them. Maybe a singular cut of each of those? Less than three rangers is not desirable, it's a key card in battling discard, removal, counters etc. Less than 4 spectrals? Tried it, and missed the fourth a lot. Because as been said many times, it is also a key card in the deck. I can go on and on :).
That leaves us with no room. And yes this is a very valid argument along side the many arguments I've given before. Let me be clear: This is the case for this build. I've said before that I could see a more dedicated Proc sisters build work.
Well I think I answered your question in many ways already :). And that last part is probably true. I've played the deck for years against all sorts of decks and included Proc in the deck for a long time, and in the end I came to the conclusion that, although it is a good card and can be usefull, it is simply not a must play in that it is not really needed to win. It's like a win-more card, but really without the win. I found that it doesn't improve the overall match ups when compared to Procless lists.
Can you post your deck list? I'm curious what cards you play less copies of to be able to play Proc.
I feel pretty confident that the times I win with a turned on Ascendant are rare enough that I would rather have either more tokens or more hatebears. What I'm having a harder time evaluating is the extra time that Martyr sometimes gives you -- is that more valuable than what these other cards could bring to the table? What about the threat of Ascendant? Do opponents play differently because they are afraid of not being able to answer an Ascendant once you get to 30? I don't really see much opportunity for that nor have I experienced it, but I could be missing something. They can't profitably remove Martyr. I guess they can kill Ascendant on sight (or counter her) even when you aren't close to 30 out of fear that you could drop and sac Martyr at any time, so you can use Ascendant to bait removal or a counter before playing the threat you want to stick. Alternatively, they could direct burn to your face rather than your creatures or attack unprofitably in order to keep you away from 30. I can't say that I've noticed that behavior.
What I want more than anything is Pridemate 5-8. Or a way to tutor for or recur Pridemate. T1 Soul Warden into T2 Pridemate is so powerful unless it eats a bolt, which it always does.
About Martyr/Ascendant: I agree that the combo isn't that reliable and worth it, especially with 3 Martyr/4 Ascendant. Thing is that, by itself, martyr win games by giving you more time vs aggro.
The same can't be said for Ascendant. It's quite low impact when you have less then 30 life. In a variant where you gain less life and are less likely to activate it, it'd be the first card I'd cut (leaving 1-2 for Ranger tutoring). It's a 1 mana who wins game though when it works.
Related to this, since I upped my Honor of the Pure count to 4 and noticed the deck getting much better, I almost always want to draw more and a 5-6th Anthem could be worth it. I'm debating between:
Path of Bravery vs Spear of Heliod
Path of Bravery can be really good at activating Ascendant, and getting more Pridemate triggers, as well as good racing. It might be that little bit of additional life gain my deck is longing for. Doesn't boost if you are in trouble though. Feels a bit win-more even though being between 20-30 is quite common.
Spear of Heliod also looks pretty awesome at killing Goyfs and other big beaters (take that Emrakul!)
Path of Bravery hadn't hit my radar until today. Was wondering if it would be a worthwhile two-of in this deck. Spear of Heliod as a two-of is also interesting.
Neither is Honor of the Pure, of course.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
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Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
+It attacks in the air (damage/turn = number of Honors)
+It's active on the second turn like Mikaeus
+It costs only 1 mana, while Mikaeus is at least 2
-Mikaeus can survive Bolt if you play it for 5+
-Mikaeus protects your creatures with thoughness
-Mikaeus can grind until it dies and doesn't need to attack.
One situation that often arise is either turn 2-3 Hawk or turn 3 Procession into T4 Ranger, a situation where you have 2-3 flyers to attack with to end the game as soon as possible. While Mikaeus does as much damage without Honors (and often more on multiple turns), you'll fetch 2 things with Ranger and will want to play a 1 mana creature along with him T5. If you also want to keep a mana up for Path because of Splinter Twin for example, minimizing the amount of mana you spend by not casting a big Mikaeus might be worthwhile.
Mikaeus is really fringe. Signal Pest might be much better by being more castable when you draw it early though.
Why is there suddenly an interest in Proclamation of Rebirth again? The main purpose of Proc is to recur Martyr of Sands (sometimes Serra Ascendant) not Attendant or Warden. Its good if you are trying to gain large amounts of life (which is what the Martyr-Proc deck tries to do. Soul Sisters prefers to repeatably gain life rather than in large amounts at once.) Also its pretty rare for this deck to have multiple targets for Proc on turn 3. Proc gets better as the game goes on. As an aggro-midrange deck you don't really want long games. Against Control, it may be a good card as you can Forecast it to be uncounterable and get back some creatures if they tap out. Immortal Servitude also serves this function but is more flexible in targets despite costing more.
Spear of Heliod vs Path of Bravery. I am firmly in the Spear camp. I much prefer an unconditional +1/+1 to one that may grow my creatures. Most games I tend to hover between 16-24 life, I don't want to risk not having the +1/+1. I have been hurt by my opponent bolting me down below 30 midcombat to kill my Ascendants. The removal ability actually proved useful for me in a few games taking down some Scoozes and a Goyf. We only have 4 pieces of spot removal, its always nice to have more. (Bonus in that it can actually kill Emrakul if you survive the hit with enough mana)
I've said this many times and I'll say it again: I win far more games with Spirit Tokens and Squadron Hawks than with Pridemates and Ascendants.
Though I did attend GP Richmond I don't think I'll be posting a full tournament report because 1: it would be really, really long and 2: I don't remember too much in detail. I went 3-5-1 and obviously did not qualify for day two.
Wins: Affinity, Jund, MonoBlack aggro
Losses: UR Twin, Melira Pod, UW Control Brew, UWR Midrange, UW Gifts Tron
Ties: Melira Pod
I won against my creature based match ups and lost to Combo and Control. My Combo losses were mostly because after mulls to 4 and 5 I didn't draw into any of my 6-10 pieces of Combo hate. Control, I need to work on the matchup and figure out how to properly side against them. I had brought in Chalice of Life which proved pretty useless as it was far too slow and had little to no impact whatsoever. I am open for suggestions on how to beat Control decks as I am struggling to do so.
The MVP for the GP I would say were the Runed Halos I picked up on the advice of Patrick Chapin cutting Sundering Growths from the sideboard. They won me a game vs Twin, aided against Jund and most hilariously, completely destroyed the Monoblack deck as the only threat they seemed to draw into was Bloodghast. I had mostly picked them up for the Scapeshift and Storm match ups. They are actually good against almost every combo deck if you can blank their win condition. Unfortunately you can't name a Token so it won't stop Empty the Warrens You can also bring them in against Aggro decks just to mess with their creatures like I did against the Monoblack list. Naming their best creatures is always fun and acts as pseudo-removal essentially giving them defender.
Some highlights:
2 Pridemates with power and toughness over 4 million.
Making the Twin player dig down to about a dozen cards left in his deck to find enough Flame Slashes and Izzet Charms to kill all of my Sisters.
Bluffing my Pod opponent into agreeing to a draw even though he had me dead on board.
The aforementioned Runed Halo on Bloodghast.
Nearly half of my opponents having to read Squadron Hawk to see what it does.
Things I took away from the GP:
9 Rounds is a long time I missed so many triggers because I wasn't focusing enough. I actually forgot to attack against Twin one turn and that cost me the game. They found Splinter Twin to make infinite blocking Pestermites shortly afterwards.
Iona, Shield of Emeria is a completly and utterly backbreaking card coming out of Gifts or UW Tron.
My Control matchup is horrid. People who have more experience playing vs Control I implore you to share your wisdom and strategies on how to beat those lists. My only wins against them were because I kept drawing into a constant source of threats and had more beaters than they had removal.
-Anonymous
So this was your sideboard?
How do you feel about it after playing? Would you say Auriok Champion and Kataki are overkill in their matchups which look quite favorable? I'm thinking of using 4 Rest in Peace with the resurgence of graveyard (Iona for instance)
Maybe this is more suited to the no Deathrite Shaman meta:
Kataki is replaced with more Stony Silence because the main problem card is Cranial Plating (especially with Infect Nexus)
Immortal Servitude because that's the first thing that came to mind when battling control.
We really need to look into more good cards to beat blue main and sideboard.
I went 2-1. Won against Faeries and Elves. Lost against Merfolk. The first game I lost against him was when I was flooded with lands and he drew 4 Path to Exile. Second game I lost was when he drew 4 Spreading Seas and got all my Plains. It was quite sad, really.
Faeries was rather tough. The guy in my LGS plays Grixis for Izzet Staticaster sometimes with Basilisk Collar. It's such a killer combo against my deck, but I managed to pull through.
RGGruul Aggro
WSoul Sisters
WBTokens
BUGRRestore Balance
BMono-Black Infect
EDH:
RGWMayael, the Anima
GWURoon of the Hidden Realm
BDrana, Kalastria Bloodchief
First of all thanks for the report
I agree with you on signal pest, it was just a thought I had. I think a singleton could be worth testing though. I can't think of a situation where I only would have a signal pest on the board. The sole reason it COULD be played, is because it is tutorable.
On control: It's always going to be an enormous struggle, that's for sure. In my other posts on this page I do explain a little how I approach control decks. It's all about making them counter the less important cards so to speak. Once you can get Spectral out and an Honor of the Pure, you should be able to set a clock on the game. One thing I kind ignore against control matchups is our life gain engine. This may sound strange :P. They are probably going to counter it anyway, so no need to focus on it. The focus should be getting as much power on the field through their counterspells and removal. This means I rarely use martyr to gain life. Only exception being if I have a Serra n the board which I can activate by saccing Martyr and knowing for sure they can't remove serra in reaction. I use every creature I can to beat them down. Every creature that gets through their counters is a threat.
So baiting their counters is a really important thing to learn. Mostly I let them spill their counterspells on sisters. Those are just huge targets. I try to make the output of things I cast as big as possible. Maybe they have 4 untapped land, which could mean they're going to use Cryptic. In that case I first attack, maybe they want to spill Cryptic on tapping our creatures. After which we can cast anything we want (Ranger, Spectral etc.).
Then there is Tectonic Edge. Really important. Control is the reason I run it in stead of Ghost Quarter. As soon as they get to four land, there will be a time where they only have 2 untapped lands for instance. Kill one, go to combat step so their mana pool is emptied, and in the second mainphase, cast the thing you want to cast. Just make you cast either 1 drop creatures or 3+ drop cards to play around their spell snare. It also depends on how many cards they have in their hand.
Maybe the best way to say it is: Use cards like the sisters as 'discard' spells ;). Make them empty their hand by throwing as many threats on the board as possible. After which you have to time you Ranger of Eos at the right time so they can't counter it and fill your hand again.
I hope this will help a little. I'm still very much figuring out how to make the matchup even better, but it will always be a tough one I think. It's almost like playing poker. You have to make assumptions when they have like 3 cards in hand and 4 mana open. Do they have a cryptic? Maybe they leave 6 mana open, there is a cryptic in the graveyard and they haven't casted a Snapcaster yet. Big chance they'll go Snapcaster into Cryptic. When we make an assumption like this (we kind of have to), we can then try and play around it.
So watching their graveyard (what have they casted, and what can they use with Snapcaster), how many lands have they untapped and how do we think they'll use it, and how many cards they have at hand, is all important. One last thing. This is what I said about remand earlier in this threat:
I think in the end it is about trying to control the control player without them knowing it, if you know what I mean :).
T As mentioned above me: Rest in peace makes the matchup a lot less frustrating. Aven Mindcensor can be used to 'destroy' a land. The fact that SoFaI is non-white is something I don't like, since you need to have 2 or 3 in your board. It's also pretty easy to counter, and they probably will.
+ Constant source of creatures
+ way to make anything into a threat
+ kill all removal apart from Path to Exile if you can ult
+ protects our life by being a separate target
- Costs 4 mana
- destroyed by combat or burn
Getting it to resolve is quite a challenge but once there, seriously helps us and has an impact the turn it is played. The biggest issue is that it costs 4 mana and can be pretty easily countered.
Any users of Elspeth able to talk a bit more about her?
I'll be considering doing a 2-1 or 1-2 split on Tec-Edge/Ghost Quarter. Tec-Edge is better vs Control but GQ is better vs Tron both are hard match ups.
-Anonymous
The Chalices I tried but always drew them too late or when there wasn't really a chance of me getting to enough life to flip it.
-Anonymous