at tops i would run 1 shelldock. CIPTlands are terrible for a decktype that wants to win fast. chancellor is horrificly bad, if you get it in your opener you still feel gutted at how bad it is :/, not to mention its a dead draw everytime you dont have it.
In opening hand that's 7 cards for 0, it's basically as good as breaking//entering
When you don't have it in opening hand AND you draw it, yeah that's bad. To be honest i don't think this kind of deck stand a chance with the cards we have actually, the sole two cards basically good are the trap and hedron crab...
It's more like a Mind Sculpt but if it is in your opening hand it's just a dead card after that. If you draw into it it's a dead draw. So you are right about that.
We can compare with burn, assuming the opponent start to 50 cards in his library, 50/20= 2,5
So 2,5 cards equal 1 life:
Trap, fairly good, 13 cards similar to 5 life for 0 (but conditionnal)
Hedron crab, fairly good too, like 5 life with 2 fetch.
Glimpse: meh, 4 life for 2, not as good.
Breaking//entering: 3 life for 2.
Chancellor (starting hand): nearly 3 life for 0 nothing if not in starting hand.
The Glimpse is a Flameslash that targets players for 2. That's pretty darn good.
Assuming these are our better cards, we can clearly see three things, first we have cards that are worst than burn, except for 3 of them, the rest is worst. Second, burn as a lot more redondancy, making him really good (and fast) where we don't have any (we don't have 7 mill 8 for 1...) third, we take leyline as burn, but burn has creatures, where we doesn't have anything (bounce maybe...)
And that's why we need a little bit of control.
So conclusion, we are slower, so 2 solutions, we find a way to be faster (chaining traps maybe? That's our better card) OR we can play a control game with early surgical/extraction to disrupt the opponent game (that's why chancellor might be good, t0 extirpate are alway strong) and we have the tools for that, a draw 3 for 1 and the special land (basically in it's deck it's written: Look at the 4 top cards, exile one, you can play it for U at your next turn.)
Archive Trap is just better than Chancellor. I run a deck that's like of like U/R burn. Burn with control but instead of damage it's mill.
Esper, Know I'm going to catch some hate for using Serum Visions over Thought Scour but the scry 2 has helped a lot more then the mill 2. I found Serum as a more effective turn 1 play if I couldn't play a crab. Anyone have suggestions for aggro based decks? Working on getting a set of Ghostly Prison but I was wondering if anyone has more effective answer. Heck, I'm even thinking of boarding Wall of Denial at this point.
Haven't played since the treasure cruise ban but my meta otherwise consisted of burn, delver, affinity, soul sisters, and goblins for the most part.
the reason i dont play serum visions, is that i run 8-9 fetches and 3-4 GQ(which i use on myself at least 50% of the time), making the scry effect irrelevant most of the time. personally i would cut all the counters verdicts and darkness from the deck as well, they distrupt your linear strategy, and against some decks either of the cards are just dead. id suggest put in some snappys as well. and if you have to play things for 3 mana that isnt crypt incursion that gives you life, i still stand by that timely reinforcements does alot of work-at least its better than prison and wall.
Hi everyone, I have been following this thread for a long time. I got into magic just over 3 years ago. I have put in many hours testing mill and I prefer running an Esper variant.
I have found that it took me a really long time to realize what is the proper hands to keep. When you are looking at a hand to keep make sure you have a way to get all 3 colors, and make sure you have a turn 2 and turn 3 play that mill. If your hand doesn't have those things I Mulligan.
I am here today to report my results from a 4 round Modern event at my LGS where I went 3-1. My list is below. I prefer the 8 pieces of removal because working with Snapcaster Mage I don't die to one or two large threats such as Goyph or Wurmcoil Engine. I have no way of interacting with Walkers. Combo decks aren't a problem for me. Infect I believe will always be a problem. Manabase started as budget and over time with a little cash here and there became what it is now.
Round 2 Naya Zoo? 0-2
Zoo is a bad matchup, too many threats too much damage. I did all that I could. Not even Hide // Seek targeting Ghor-Clan Rampager could buy me enough time
I think in this matchup I would like some Darkness or Ethereal Haze
Round 3 RB Burn 2-0
Surprisingly I go toe to toe with this list. However he wasn't playing an optimal list I win it in 2.
For some reason he was playing Monastery Swiftspear then Titan's Strength rather than burn spells. I guess the 8 removal I have worked here.
Round 4 MonoU Tron 2-0
I have beaten this Tron before so I knew I could do it again.
So any new cards from Dragons that might be useful to us? Or ones that might give us particular trouble?
The only card I see making an immediate impact on Modern is Atarka's Command in burn and Naya Blitz, being Skullcrack 5-8, and it gets around Leyline of Anticipation.
Edit: Also, if I pull a Narset, I am definitely going to try testing her out in my Mill deck as a one-of.
I tested it out with a splash white. I've been playing a UB list for a while now and I have to say that I'm so glad I splashed white. It makes archive trap so much better and the deck all around better.
I put Glimpse the Unthinkable into a Cruel control shell. It uses a lot of popular grixis removal (or would if I hadn't traded it out) to keep you alive long enough to mill or cast cruel ultimatum. Here is the Modern Legal section of my deck (it has Counterspell in it for filler as I do not play it in the format or competitively yet)
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
3x Broken Ambitions
4x Electrolyze
4x Mind Funeral
1x Crux of Fate (should be damnation)
4x Jace's Phantasm
3x Cruel Ultimatum
2x Haunting Echoes
This deck can get full value out of Breaking // Entering which is in my sideboard.
there is room for card draw, as I have T cruise in my deck currently and counterspell which can all become cryptic command and sleight of hand/ serum visions
This might not be good enough for competitive but I have fun playing it. If someone can make this better I will probably adjust my deck accordingly.
Hi all. Long time destroyer of answers (mill player), but very rarely have I posted. I have run mill decks since... well, when mill was a thing some 20+ years ago. I love the idea of stripping away your answers and leaving you with nothing.
Last year, for a Grand Prix, I threw together a fairly bad deck with many weaknesses. The deck, completely home brewed and relatively untested, surprised a few folks and went 2-3 before I dropped. Had the rust of not playing competitive Magic for roughly 14 years not been so thick, I would have been 3-2, potentially 3-1-1 and in through the remainder of the day but, you make stupid plays when you are out of practice.
With the help of dcovino and Raystack - both posters here - we cobbled together and tested a new build for mill that is a little more aggressive. There are still some things that I am looking to shore up. A small sampling of this week's matchups, cut short for familial duties, follows the deck list.
The deck runs heavy on sorcery spells making the utility inherent to Snapcaster minimal until we add Quicken. Fortunately, this little enabler is a cantrip. There is nothing more satisfying than a quicken to Entering an Cthulhu as it sits on the stack after being milled away. Still waiting for an instant cast Damnation but, I know that it will happen. It's utility with Research alone is great.
Tasigur serves as a threat, a real one, and if I see that it will be a race I can hit myself with Breaking to lay him T3. With a couple of fetches, some opponent help and T1 Serum Visions T2 is not out of the question for this ridiculous beat stick. Plus, you get the advantage of cherry picking your graveyard, gaining card advantage mid-game with his ability. Which, by the sudden appearance of newer BUG decks just shows how gross he really is.
The meta in the area is heavy with tokens so Bile Blight serves to cripple them whenever it is needed. Damnation is just a sweeper that is needed from time to time to hold off the tide.
Ashiok is a beast, plain and simple. Jace protects a little, but his card advantage on the relative cheap is flat our crucial to keep the deck plowing forward.
Tourney Results
Match 1 (0-0)
5c Infect
Infect is the absolute worst matchup I can face. Opening draw is passable, glimpse, lands, visions, should be good. He is on the play and opens with Mana Confluence, Nivmagus Elemental. T3, I eat dirt.
Game 1, no idea what this guy is playing, suspends a Lotus Bloom T1, my hand is brutal against anyone so I keep use combination of Serum Visions and Think Twice to stay ahead of his ridiculous card draw by T5 a Mind Funeral chews through 19 cards and leaves him striking distance. I hold a Breaking and a Quicken He attempts to go off, but so much is in his graveyard that he has six triggers to draw on the stack when he Opens the Vault. I hit him with a Breaking via Quicken and his deck goes to 1. He fumbles for about 5 minutes trying to figure it before I finally just say, "if you have 0 instants in that hand there is literally nothing that you can do to stop this loss." He fumbles for another minute or two before finally realizing that he has no options and I am about to call the judge for slow play to impede progress, but he scoops.
Game 2, in go all my Leylines and my Hurkyl's. I open with a hand that would crush any T1 (except tokens) and mull it away because of no Leyline. Re-draw, and there it is. He attempts to play it out but this is inevitable, Mr. Anderson.
1-1
Match 3 Zoo! (1-1)
Game 1, Zoo rolls.
Game 2, In comes Batterskull, Leylines. I get Tasigur early. Follow with Ashiok and Batterskull. I keep using his poor creatures to protect me and with Batterskull I stay out of bolt range. Take it at 14 life with an opponent with an empty library.
Game 3, he mulls to 5, I open with a disgusting hand and proceed to own him throughout the game. Good thing we are friends outside of the tournament because it makes the miserable experience enjoyable.
We both drop and return to the families. Had I stayed I would have faced tokens, which I think I fair well against in game 1. In game 2, I think that I can pick them apart with the sideboard.
End the night 2-1, not bad for my second competition in years.
The deck is not perfect. It has lots of holes, but it is here for you to pick apart and provide feedback.
okay im gonna try and put this the nicest way i can, either youre in the wrong thread or i dont know what your deck wants to do. ill try and give my reasons why
tasigur: at best hes a 4/5 blocker for 1 that potentially can give you stuff back, which isnt superbad, but he will never be able to close out games in terms of damage. phantasm does this role ALOT better, apart from the getting stuff back, but it always cost 1 mana, tasigur doesnt, plus it can block flyers or pound by enemy blockers.
quicken: this card is absolutely terrible. stop playing it. sell every copy you have.
ashiok: is fine on sb, but main is not a win. as hes horrible vs anything that plays 2-3 creatures the first 2 turns.
ok now that i look at it im fully confused this really just looks like a bad UB list that wants to be a gifts/esper deck but didnt have the cards for it. youre wincon is milling. but you run a controlshell that dont actually have the cards needed to interact with your opponents plays. basically if you dont get a bileblight in your start hand you seem utterly fcked vs most decks.
i dont think this deck has a single good matchup against any deck. maybe twin? but not.
i ought to put up my old list at some point, cause ive not seen a single decent list here in the entire thread, and only saw 1 list where the manabase was properly adjusted to the deck.
this is the list ive tested previously to be the best. some of the stuff is argueable in numbers, but roughly this is what you would want to run. in the new meta coming about, i think i would run leylines in sb though.
@gormrscryers: it's an interesting mix of varied elements, and my overall concern would be about the compromised mill package in favor of other win-cons.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver seems like a commonsense addition, and it's terrific against control when it ultimates. In the meantime, there are plenty of applications that work. Tasigur, the Golden Fang for the cost? Why not. I probably wouldn't go (3), though. The draw mechanic is terrific, and He can block like a champ carnivorous plant!, but it's unlikely that you'll slam in for an attack win-con.
As for removal, Damnation is a beast. Bile Blight main deck can blank, though. I think I like Drown in Sorrow as a more widespread sweeper, and scry is pretty cool. Still, I follow that you are doing Snapcaster Mage, and the use of Bile Blight in that regard is quick and easy -- plus Drown will kill your mage. But, again, I don't think you'll ever win by attack. If he is there for an almost Eternal Witness type effect, then it may be best to simply run an extra copy of Mind Funeral or Glimpse the Unthinkable. I'd consider Snappy after those two cards are maxed.
Quickening applications seem spare. I'd probably drop them in favor of something like Augur of Bolas - lotta aggro out there. Speaking of, I do wonder why ensnaring bridge isn't a little more prevalent in this deck type. Welcome back to Magic, Gorm - happy tinkering!
Thanks for the feedback. Allow me to address your points one by one:
Quote from BONFIRE1337 »
okay im gonna try and put this the nicest way i can, either youre in the wrong thread or i dont know what your deck wants to do. ill try and give my reasons why
Definitely not the wrong thread. This deck, like every mill deck, exists to eradicate the opponent's library -- which this deck clearly does as the tourney report suggests. Granted it is unorthodox in its approach. As has been expressed, time and again in this thread, mill in current Modern is slow. Our bolts pause threats or create them as the current meta begins to evolve with cards like Tasigur coming to the fore. The deck you posted after my post is reminiscent of the deck I brought to the GP. More on that later.
Quote from BONFIRE1337 »
quicken: this card is absolutely terrible. stop playing it. sell every copy you have.
Again, thanks for the opinion but, I need to take that with a grain of salt. It's hardly terrible. I have no intention of removing it from the deck wholesale given your testimonial. Am I playing, too many? Yes. What is the right number? Maybe 2, maybe 3. I am really not certain. I thought the purpose of exposing our little brain children was to elicit dialogue between a community of like-minded individuals for the furthering and gain of the group at large. Perhaps, I have erred on the side of believing that there is a contingent of players looking to keep mill somewhat relevant.
Quote from BONFIRE1337 »
ashiok: is fine on sb, but main is not a win. as hes horrible vs anything that plays 2-3 creatures the first 2 turns.
If you are playing Ashiok without any protection, I agree that he is nothing more than a slight impediment in an opponent steamrolling you, but with a little defense in front he's a house of pain. If you get a single Tarmogoyf or anything of value on that second turn he is present he is worth the price of admission.
Yes, he dies to Abrupt Decay but so do Jace's Phantasms. The point is, he might be an expensive dream twist or he could be an absolute beast who stabilizes your board and turns your opponent's deck against them.
He's good. Damn good.
Quote from BONFIRE1337 »
tasigur: at best hes a 4/5 blocker for 1 that potentially can give you stuff back, which isnt superbad, but he will never be able to close out games in terms of damage. phantasm does this role ALOT better, apart from the getting stuff back, but it always cost 1 mana, tasigur doesnt, plus it can block flyers or pound by enemy blockers.
Tasigur is much more than a 4/5 blocker. He's a threat, a scary threat that can drop T2 and be bigger than a Tarmogoyf immediately and for some time. He's defense for Ashiok. He can swing and swing big. In second and third games he smashes face with a Batterskull and that potentially getting stuff back is the main reason to play him.
I am not advocating Tasigur as a win con. If you swing with him and end a game... more power to you. He's a facilitator in a deck that runs out of steam quickly. Dead draws ruin mill decks and too often with my previous build I was on a dead draw. More on that later.
Quote from BONFIRE1337 »
Some things that were said.(paraphrased, of course)
There are indeed elements of control in the deck. Jace and Ashiok chief among them. It's linear as mill decks go for the most part, but the twists make it a little unique.
It's not perfect, it's different.
I get it, you have the lock on this kind of thing... well... here is the "More on that later" part from earlier.
Your deck list, which you say has been tested (I wonder how extensively and in what environment, could you share?) includes a host of cards that I had in my Grand Prix build. I have found through play testing that some of those cards are just not as amazing as we would like in the current environment.
Visions of Beyond as a four of is a dead draw too often. I experienced it first hand at the GP. There has been a good amount of graveyard manipulation around in Modern and with the coming months this is only going to increase. In almost every matchup the first sideboard card that I reach for is Leyline of the Void. It simply hoses some of the more prolific tier 2 decks and can make a couple of tier 1 decks cringe.
I like Visions of Beyond as a one or two of, because it is playable in the deck game one. After playing with Think Twice I would not again. I found it to be much like Visions of Beyond without a lot of the upside.
Hedron Crab is a beast. He was in my deck up until a night of hard testing. Hell I was running Mesmeric Orb to great effect as well. I discovered something though. He gets removed way too easily. Which is good and bad... in a burn matchup one less bolt for your face is better. In an Abzan matchup the removal is too prolific and he dies. He might hit six cards. A bolt. Good but not great. And yes, there are fringe cases where he lasts and lasts and lasts.
I would say the same for Jace's Phantasm. I like the card. It can be beefy quickly but the standard removal suite all hit him early on and make him worthless. Ultimately, I don't want to beat you to death. I want to destroy your library. Don't get me wrong, swinging with a 5/5 flying beater is amazing on turn 2, but he is removed by so much of the meta. It's why I chose Tasigur over the others. He evades Inquisition, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt and burn in general, and to top it off he gives me back pieces of my deck and he is a one drop - nearly always... sometimes he is a two. I digress.
Archive Trapis the trap card here. It looks so good. It feels so good. It sounds so good. It works once. At least from the play that I experienced. Everyone that saw it played smarter, cracked less. Granted not everyone has that luxury but, the matchups where the opponent doesn't have the luxury are almost always auto wins anyway because we stall a key piece early on. At best, I find it a one of in my mill decks. Tournament play showed me that its power is limited and that I was blinded by its potential more than it's application. Hated top decking one of these clunky bastards.
You ran white. I didn't. I love Hide // Seek it saves lives and I prefer it over Crypt Incursion for life gain. Seeing what the opponent has is always great. Ramp can hurt us, so I was surprised to see that you were running Path to Exile. Sure it's arguably the best removal in the formal and you get to trigger Archive Trap (once) but the potential to ramp always worries me. That said, you run that for the same reason that I run Tasigur to enable other cards.
I think your build works. I think that the meta is changing.
I think that Raystack is right. Some measure of Augur of Bolas is necessary.
As to why 3 Tasigurs in the deck; graveyard manipulation. Top decking him is never a dead draw. You can prune the graveyard and get back what you want with his ability. He's just good.
At any rate BONFIRE1337, I look forward to debating and finding a way to enhance our maligned and put upon deck. If it was perfect, in any permutation, it would be in tier 1 and we'd be vociferously declaring our dominance over the format. In a nutshell, what worked before isn't working now. Heck, it barely worked then. We need a new approach. I am taking a stab at one... want to help?
Oh and for the record... the mana base was trash because I just kept it from the grand prix and testing the couple of nights prior to FNM. I should never have been running Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
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It's more like a Mind Sculpt but if it is in your opening hand it's just a dead card after that. If you draw into it it's a dead draw. So you are right about that.
The Glimpse is a Flameslash that targets players for 2. That's pretty darn good.
And that's why we need a little bit of control.
Archive Trap is just better than Chancellor. I run a deck that's like of like U/R burn. Burn with control but instead of damage it's mill.
4 Hedron Crab
Spell 34
4 Archive Trap
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Breaking // Entering
4 Serum Visions
3 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
2 Visions of Beyond
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Darkness
2 Mind Funeral
1 Crypt Incursion
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Shelldock Isle
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Echoing Truth
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
4 Erase
3 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Crypt Incursion
Esper, Know I'm going to catch some hate for using Serum Visions over Thought Scour but the scry 2 has helped a lot more then the mill 2. I found Serum as a more effective turn 1 play if I couldn't play a crab. Anyone have suggestions for aggro based decks? Working on getting a set of Ghostly Prison but I was wondering if anyone has more effective answer. Heck, I'm even thinking of boarding Wall of Denial at this point.
Haven't played since the treasure cruise ban but my meta otherwise consisted of burn, delver, affinity, soul sisters, and goblins for the most part.
WUBEsper MillWUB
I'm thinking 2.
I have found that it took me a really long time to realize what is the proper hands to keep. When you are looking at a hand to keep make sure you have a way to get all 3 colors, and make sure you have a turn 2 and turn 3 play that mill. If your hand doesn't have those things I Mulligan.
I am here today to report my results from a 4 round Modern event at my LGS where I went 3-1. My list is below. I prefer the 8 pieces of removal because working with Snapcaster Mage I don't die to one or two large threats such as Goyph or Wurmcoil Engine. I have no way of interacting with Walkers. Combo decks aren't a problem for me. Infect I believe will always be a problem. Manabase started as budget and over time with a little cash here and there became what it is now.
I am curious to hear some opinions on my list.
4 Hedron Crab
3 Snapcaster Mage
Artifacts 3
3 Mesmeric Orb
Sorceries 12
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Breaking // Entering
4 Mind Funeral
Instants 16
4 Archive Trap
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Path to Exile
4 Condemn
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Shelldock Isle
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Hide // Seek
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Echoing Truth
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Disenchant
Round 1 Affinity 2-1
I was kicking myself in the butt here for not bringing Hurkyl's Recall but I beat him anyway.
Game 1: He takes me hard not much I can do pre board. Time to bring in Ensnaring Bridge, Echoing Truth and Disenchant
Game 2: He has no response to a T3 Ensnaring Bridge
Game 3: Mesmeric Orb + 2 Mind Funeral Wins me the game quickly with help from Disenchant. A Single Mind Funeral hit 32 cards, cause Affinity plays 18 lands these days.
Round 2 Naya Zoo? 0-2
Zoo is a bad matchup, too many threats too much damage. I did all that I could. Not even Hide // Seek targeting Ghor-Clan Rampager could buy me enough time
I think in this matchup I would like some Darkness or Ethereal Haze
Game 1: Zoo is fast I die.
Game 2: Ensnaring Bridge gets destroyed by Ancient Grudge
Round 3 RB Burn 2-0
Surprisingly I go toe to toe with this list. However he wasn't playing an optimal list I win it in 2.
For some reason he was playing Monastery Swiftspear then Titan's Strength rather than burn spells. I guess the 8 removal I have worked here.
Round 4 MonoU Tron 2-0
I have beaten this Tron before so I knew I could do it again.
Game 1: His Expedition Map triggers my Archive Trap. Slowly but surely I mill him out over a few turns while Path To Exile takes care of Wurmcoil Engine and Condemn takes care of a mid-game Sundering Titan
Game 2: Bring in Hide // Seek and Surgical Extraction. I get Hide // Seek in my opener and use it once to grab Academy Ruins so he can't lock me with Mindslaver. Later flash it back with Snapcaster Mage and grab Platinum Angel the life gain was sick.
The only card I see making an immediate impact on Modern is Atarka's Command in burn and Naya Blitz, being Skullcrack 5-8, and it gets around Leyline of Anticipation.
Edit: Also, if I pull a Narset, I am definitely going to try testing her out in my Mill deck as a one-of.
Zur
Norin!
Mikaeus Zombies
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
3x Broken Ambitions
4x Electrolyze
4x Mind Funeral
1x Crux of Fate (should be damnation)
4x Jace's Phantasm
3x Cruel Ultimatum
2x Haunting Echoes
This deck can get full value out of Breaking // Entering which is in my sideboard.
there is room for card draw, as I have T cruise in my deck currently and counterspell which can all become cryptic command and sleight of hand/ serum visions
This might not be good enough for competitive but I have fun playing it. If someone can make this better I will probably adjust my deck accordingly.
Last year, for a Grand Prix, I threw together a fairly bad deck with many weaknesses. The deck, completely home brewed and relatively untested, surprised a few folks and went 2-3 before I dropped. Had the rust of not playing competitive Magic for roughly 14 years not been so thick, I would have been 3-2, potentially 3-1-1 and in through the remainder of the day but, you make stupid plays when you are out of practice.
With the help of dcovino and Raystack - both posters here - we cobbled together and tested a new build for mill that is a little more aggressive. There are still some things that I am looking to shore up. A small sampling of this week's matchups, cut short for familial duties, follows the deck list.
3 Mind Funeral
4 Breaking // Entering
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Bile Blight
2 Damnation
4 Serum Visions
3 Think Twice
3 Compulsive Research
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Quicken
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Echoing Truth
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Swan Song
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Repeal
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Batterskull
The deck runs heavy on sorcery spells making the utility inherent to Snapcaster minimal until we add Quicken. Fortunately, this little enabler is a cantrip. There is nothing more satisfying than a quicken to Entering an Cthulhu as it sits on the stack after being milled away. Still waiting for an instant cast Damnation but, I know that it will happen. It's utility with Research alone is great.
Tasigur serves as a threat, a real one, and if I see that it will be a race I can hit myself with Breaking to lay him T3. With a couple of fetches, some opponent help and T1 Serum Visions T2 is not out of the question for this ridiculous beat stick. Plus, you get the advantage of cherry picking your graveyard, gaining card advantage mid-game with his ability. Which, by the sudden appearance of newer BUG decks just shows how gross he really is.
The meta in the area is heavy with tokens so Bile Blight serves to cripple them whenever it is needed. Damnation is just a sweeper that is needed from time to time to hold off the tide.
Ashiok is a beast, plain and simple. Jace protects a little, but his card advantage on the relative cheap is flat our crucial to keep the deck plowing forward.
Tourney Results
Match 1 (0-0)
5c Infect
Infect is the absolute worst matchup I can face. Opening draw is passable, glimpse, lands, visions, should be good. He is on the play and opens with Mana Confluence, Nivmagus Elemental. T3, I eat dirt.
Game 2, I side in Echoing Truth, Repeal, Engineered Explosives. He has a slower draw and I eat some of his graveyard. My T3 Tasigur holds him at bay for a while, but eventually my Echoing Truth and Tasigur need to stem the bleeding. Tasigur goes to the graveyard and I have another in my hand. He is sitting on 3 cards after the draw; I am holding Tasigur, Snapcaster Mage, and land. I gamble that I can use Snapcaster to pull up my Echoing Truth to thwart the attack and reset the Nivmagus Elemental and opt to not drop Tasigur (rusty play), he's holding an Apostle's Blessing and names blue. Game and match.
Match 2 Some Kind of Janky Eggs Deck(0-1)
Game 1, no idea what this guy is playing, suspends a Lotus Bloom T1, my hand is brutal against anyone so I keep use combination of Serum Visions and Think Twice to stay ahead of his ridiculous card draw by T5 a Mind Funeral chews through 19 cards and leaves him striking distance. I hold a Breaking and a Quicken He attempts to go off, but so much is in his graveyard that he has six triggers to draw on the stack when he Opens the Vault. I hit him with a Breaking via Quicken and his deck goes to 1. He fumbles for about 5 minutes trying to figure it before I finally just say, "if you have 0 instants in that hand there is literally nothing that you can do to stop this loss." He fumbles for another minute or two before finally realizing that he has no options and I am about to call the judge for slow play to impede progress, but he scoops.
Game 2, in go all my Leylines and my Hurkyl's. I open with a hand that would crush any T1 (except tokens) and mull it away because of no Leyline. Re-draw, and there it is. He attempts to play it out but this is inevitable, Mr. Anderson.
1-1
Match 3 Zoo! (1-1)
Game 1, Zoo rolls.
Game 2, In comes Batterskull, Leylines. I get Tasigur early. Follow with Ashiok and Batterskull. I keep using his poor creatures to protect me and with Batterskull I stay out of bolt range. Take it at 14 life with an opponent with an empty library.
Game 3, he mulls to 5, I open with a disgusting hand and proceed to own him throughout the game. Good thing we are friends outside of the tournament because it makes the miserable experience enjoyable.
We both drop and return to the families. Had I stayed I would have faced tokens, which I think I fair well against in game 1. In game 2, I think that I can pick them apart with the sideboard.
End the night 2-1, not bad for my second competition in years.
The deck is not perfect. It has lots of holes, but it is here for you to pick apart and provide feedback.
tasigur: at best hes a 4/5 blocker for 1 that potentially can give you stuff back, which isnt superbad, but he will never be able to close out games in terms of damage. phantasm does this role ALOT better, apart from the getting stuff back, but it always cost 1 mana, tasigur doesnt, plus it can block flyers or pound by enemy blockers.
quicken: this card is absolutely terrible. stop playing it. sell every copy you have.
ashiok: is fine on sb, but main is not a win. as hes horrible vs anything that plays 2-3 creatures the first 2 turns.
ok now that i look at it im fully confused this really just looks like a bad UB list that wants to be a gifts/esper deck but didnt have the cards for it. youre wincon is milling. but you run a controlshell that dont actually have the cards needed to interact with your opponents plays. basically if you dont get a bileblight in your start hand you seem utterly fcked vs most decks.
i dont think this deck has a single good matchup against any deck. maybe twin? but not.
i ought to put up my old list at some point, cause ive not seen a single decent list here in the entire thread, and only saw 1 list where the manabase was properly adjusted to the deck.
2 Mind Funeral
4 Breaking // Entering
3 surgical extration
4 archive trap
3 jace's phantasm
4 hedron crab
4 vision beyond
2 snapcaster mage
3 path to exile
4 thought scour
Land
1 Shelldock Isle
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 plains
1 Steam Vents
3 Watery Grave
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Ghost Quarter
4 flooded strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Nephalia Drownyard
1 hallowed fountain
2 wear // tear
1 spellskite
2 hide // seek
2 ashiok, nightmare weaver
1 extirpate
1 surgical extration
1 crypt incursion
3 darkness
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver seems like a commonsense addition, and it's terrific against control when it ultimates. In the meantime, there are plenty of applications that work.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang for the cost? Why not. I probably wouldn't go (3), though. The draw mechanic is terrific, and He can block like a champ carnivorous plant!, but it's unlikely that you'll slam in for an attack win-con.
As for removal, Damnation is a beast. Bile Blight main deck can blank, though. I think I like Drown in Sorrow as a more widespread sweeper, and scry is pretty cool. Still, I follow that you are doing Snapcaster Mage, and the use of Bile Blight in that regard is quick and easy -- plus Drown will kill your mage. But, again, I don't think you'll ever win by attack. If he is there for an almost Eternal Witness type effect, then it may be best to simply run an extra copy of Mind Funeral or Glimpse the Unthinkable. I'd consider Snappy after those two cards are maxed.
Quickening applications seem spare. I'd probably drop them in favor of something like Augur of Bolas - lotta aggro out there. Speaking of, I do wonder why ensnaring bridge isn't a little more prevalent in this deck type. Welcome back to Magic, Gorm - happy tinkering!
Thanks for the feedback. Allow me to address your points one by one:
Definitely not the wrong thread. This deck, like every mill deck, exists to eradicate the opponent's library -- which this deck clearly does as the tourney report suggests. Granted it is unorthodox in its approach. As has been expressed, time and again in this thread, mill in current Modern is slow. Our bolts pause threats or create them as the current meta begins to evolve with cards like Tasigur coming to the fore. The deck you posted after my post is reminiscent of the deck I brought to the GP. More on that later.
Again, thanks for the opinion but, I need to take that with a grain of salt. It's hardly terrible. I have no intention of removing it from the deck wholesale given your testimonial. Am I playing, too many? Yes. What is the right number? Maybe 2, maybe 3. I am really not certain. I thought the purpose of exposing our little brain children was to elicit dialogue between a community of like-minded individuals for the furthering and gain of the group at large. Perhaps, I have erred on the side of believing that there is a contingent of players looking to keep mill somewhat relevant.
If you are playing Ashiok without any protection, I agree that he is nothing more than a slight impediment in an opponent steamrolling you, but with a little defense in front he's a house of pain. If you get a single Tarmogoyf or anything of value on that second turn he is present he is worth the price of admission.
Yes, he dies to Abrupt Decay but so do Jace's Phantasms. The point is, he might be an expensive dream twist or he could be an absolute beast who stabilizes your board and turns your opponent's deck against them.
He's good. Damn good.
Tasigur is much more than a 4/5 blocker. He's a threat, a scary threat that can drop T2 and be bigger than a Tarmogoyf immediately and for some time. He's defense for Ashiok. He can swing and swing big. In second and third games he smashes face with a Batterskull and that potentially getting stuff back is the main reason to play him.
I am not advocating Tasigur as a win con. If you swing with him and end a game... more power to you. He's a facilitator in a deck that runs out of steam quickly. Dead draws ruin mill decks and too often with my previous build I was on a dead draw. More on that later.
There are indeed elements of control in the deck. Jace and Ashiok chief among them. It's linear as mill decks go for the most part, but the twists make it a little unique.
It's not perfect, it's different.
I get it, you have the lock on this kind of thing... well... here is the "More on that later" part from earlier.
Your deck list, which you say has been tested (I wonder how extensively and in what environment, could you share?) includes a host of cards that I had in my Grand Prix build. I have found through play testing that some of those cards are just not as amazing as we would like in the current environment.
Visions of Beyond as a four of is a dead draw too often. I experienced it first hand at the GP. There has been a good amount of graveyard manipulation around in Modern and with the coming months this is only going to increase. In almost every matchup the first sideboard card that I reach for is Leyline of the Void. It simply hoses some of the more prolific tier 2 decks and can make a couple of tier 1 decks cringe.
I like Visions of Beyond as a one or two of, because it is playable in the deck game one. After playing with Think Twice I would not again. I found it to be much like Visions of Beyond without a lot of the upside.
Hedron Crab is a beast. He was in my deck up until a night of hard testing. Hell I was running Mesmeric Orb to great effect as well. I discovered something though. He gets removed way too easily. Which is good and bad... in a burn matchup one less bolt for your face is better. In an Abzan matchup the removal is too prolific and he dies. He might hit six cards. A bolt. Good but not great. And yes, there are fringe cases where he lasts and lasts and lasts.
I would say the same for Jace's Phantasm. I like the card. It can be beefy quickly but the standard removal suite all hit him early on and make him worthless. Ultimately, I don't want to beat you to death. I want to destroy your library. Don't get me wrong, swinging with a 5/5 flying beater is amazing on turn 2, but he is removed by so much of the meta. It's why I chose Tasigur over the others. He evades Inquisition, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt and burn in general, and to top it off he gives me back pieces of my deck and he is a one drop - nearly always... sometimes he is a two. I digress.
Archive Trap is the trap card here. It looks so good. It feels so good. It sounds so good. It works once. At least from the play that I experienced. Everyone that saw it played smarter, cracked less. Granted not everyone has that luxury but, the matchups where the opponent doesn't have the luxury are almost always auto wins anyway because we stall a key piece early on. At best, I find it a one of in my mill decks. Tournament play showed me that its power is limited and that I was blinded by its potential more than it's application. Hated top decking one of these clunky bastards.
You ran white. I didn't. I love Hide // Seek it saves lives and I prefer it over Crypt Incursion for life gain. Seeing what the opponent has is always great. Ramp can hurt us, so I was surprised to see that you were running Path to Exile. Sure it's arguably the best removal in the formal and you get to trigger Archive Trap (once) but the potential to ramp always worries me. That said, you run that for the same reason that I run Tasigur to enable other cards.
I think your build works. I think that the meta is changing.
I think that Raystack is right. Some measure of Augur of Bolas is necessary.
As to why 3 Tasigurs in the deck; graveyard manipulation. Top decking him is never a dead draw. You can prune the graveyard and get back what you want with his ability. He's just good.
At any rate BONFIRE1337, I look forward to debating and finding a way to enhance our maligned and put upon deck. If it was perfect, in any permutation, it would be in tier 1 and we'd be vociferously declaring our dominance over the format. In a nutshell, what worked before isn't working now. Heck, it barely worked then. We need a new approach. I am taking a stab at one... want to help?
Oh and for the record... the mana base was trash because I just kept it from the grand prix and testing the couple of nights prior to FNM. I should never have been running Oboro, Palace in the Clouds