I see that Mill can do well against Control and Combo, but I see it having a bad day at the office against aggro and burn.
Thank you!
I find that most aggro decks with the exception of Affinity have a very poor matchup against our deck. The esper lists run both Darkness and Path to Exile, while other lists run Darkness with Snappy backup. The thing with aggro is that often they need the full 4-5 turns of attacking to win by T5. Delaying them by 1-2 turns with Darkness is usually all we need to get ahead, and a Turn 4 or 5 Crypt Incursion normally gains us enough life to finish them off no matter what their board state is. Affinity/Robots are only hard because they can pull off the infect win on T3, but that requires a god hand for them that we can hope they just don't get. Crypt Incursion again is a winner vs them since they often run 24+ creatures.
Burn is a little harder, but in almost all the modern lists I've seen they use Goblin Guide, Vexing Devil, and their choice of Hellspark Elemental or Keldon Marauders or both. Modern doesn't have quite as many 3 for 1cc burn spells as legacy, so they usually run a few creatures for some sources of recurring damage to get the turn 4-5 win. Gaining at least 6-9 life with Crypt Incursion is enough to (normally) put them in topdeck mode whereas we're playing our Visions of Beyond and other CA generators and winning quickly thereafter.
I normally test my U/B/g mill vs. my Burn and Modern Knights decks and the mill deck is by far the winner most games. Post boarding can go either way, since white has Leyline of Sanctity and Burn has Leyline of Punishment and Skullcrack, but we just have to hope they don't get their answers while we get ours. (But that's the way it goes for every competitive deck)
I'm a little surprised nobody's been running lingering souls in their esper lists, why is this? I think it could do work.
I think part of the strength of our deck is the game 1 fact that we blank most of the removal in our opponent's decks. Lingering Souls is indeed a very good card for gumming up the board vs creature decks, but tempo is very important for mill, and spending that much mana during an early turn when we should be milling them for all they're worth, could be detrimental. Earlier in the thread we discussed the advantage of using Darkness to stall their win simply because it allows us to play additional mill on the same turn. I agree with that reasoning and have so far played it to my advantage most games where a higher cmc spell would not have allowed me a victory as easily. However, if your esper mill list uses Mesmeric Orb, then I would agree that L.souls and cards like Dream Twist would have a place there because flashback makes milling yourself not so bad.
As always, these are just my opinions and are up for discussion if you disagree. I'm considering which deck I want to take to states for Modern next year, and so far I'm leaning towards Mill the more I play it. But only if we can get the meta-game down and have answers for most of the other decks out there.
It's funny because besides Burn and Affinity most of the aggro MU's are a walk in the park in my play tests. I run Leyline of Sanctity in SB for the Burn match and Stony Silence for Affinity, besides the Darkness/Incursion/Path MD.
Besides this 2 MU's just be aware of Knight of the Reliquary which can turn our wincon against us and swing for lethal in 3rd/4th turn.
I don't know why, but I'm much more concerned about Midrange/Control MU's. Jund has hand disruption, UWr has counters. Both has few but powerful beaters.
Also, other problem I'm suffering in Cockatrice is that many players get mad once they realize I'm playing Mill despite of my description of 'Serious/Competitive' and rage quit. Play testing online is difficult, anybody wants to create a group to test our Mill buildings ?
Yell at me for not going esper, please. Also nobody activates the Archive Trap in my area which is why it's not a 4 of and only against the two people who have the actual fetch lands or tutors.
Yell at me for not going esper, please. Also nobody activates the Archive Trap in my area which is why it's not a 4 of and only against the two people who have the actual fetch lands or tutors.
Well, I for one won't yell at you for not going Esper lol! Don't know how much of this thread you've read, but FerreiraDaSilva and I have gone back and forth quite a bit on that topic ;).
I'm guessing you're looking for thoughts on your build since you posted here? Hopefully I can offer some help-
1st- I'd decrease the number of maindeck Incursions. You have the full sets of Visions and thought scours, so drawing cards doesn't seem like it'd be a problem. I'd go down to 2 Incursions and add in 2 Far / Aways for some spot removal. I used to run 3 MD Incursions, but found that often I only wanted/needed to use 1 per game. Drawing extras were like dead cards afterwards as far as their effectiveness went.
2nd- It seems like you're going for the all-in mill, so I don't understand the Jace's Phantasms in the SB. I'm guessing they'd come out once you get your set of Darkness, since when I used to run them that was their main purpose - as a defender. Could be good against small aggro decks though if they populate your meta.
3rd- Add Surgical Extraction. It's worth it against any deck. Plus it's the only way your deck can get rid of Leyline of Sanctity permanantly (assuming you bounce it back with Cyclonic Rift then mill another one away that you can then target w/ Extraction).
4th- Investing in good lands is often a 1-time purchase that just keeps on giving. I won't rant on about it, but even sub-par lands like Jwar Isle Refuge and Dimir Aqueduct are inexpensive and can help avoid mana-screw, giving you a leg-up. (Before I got my manabase in order I used the Aqueducts since they helped Hedron Crab's landfall somewhat.)
Hope some of this helps. Looks like you have a powerful deck that just blasts through and doesn't care what your opponent plays. I've always liked that mentality....
Regarding your concernment about activating Trap, I'd suggest Ghost Quarter in place of Terramorphic Expanse. GQ drawback becomes a plus when playing Archive Trap and once your opponents became aware it ends being better than TE anyway.
In another topic, last nigh I play tested against an Wu Humans list, and it was a blow out. The dude had both fast aggro beaters and a decent counter/control package. Spell Snare is specially cruel to us.
I know humans isn't a common match up but as far as our list still is a tier 2 one we need to be aware of it, the chances of facing unusual MU's on round 2 is great when we are betting in a still in progress archetype.
I was trying to stick to a b/u list, but like you I struggle to find a competitive enough meta for archive trap to truly be a reliable addition without much search support, so it was really hard to fine-tune the deck.
I've relented and am in the process of making an esper build, which is admittedly largely untested, but I think looks significantly stronger than my previous build.
But I agree, ghost quarter and surgical extraction are awesome, and you also need some removal. Your deck looks like it burns the opponent out pretty well, but there isn't really anything stopping your opponent from killing you other than the race. Adding something like dismember, go for the throat, or even infest could help to buy you a few more turns in the place of darkness.
- First of all, if your major concernment for playing Esper is just to increase your Trap enablers, then I'd suggest you to keep your UB version. With a more solid mana base than Esper (as far as tiny the splash actually would be) you could just increase your Ghost Quarters. When I was playing UB never got screwed by running 3 of those.
- Now, speaking directly about your current list: you have too much aggro hate MD. Cards like Crypt Incursion and Ensnaring Bridge are annoying in multiples, not to mention that the most permanents you run, the least targets for your Snapcaster you'll get after landing a Mesmeric Orb. I personally would drop Bridge and Incursion to 1 each. Keep in mind that Orb itself increases your clock drastically against heavy aggro MUs.
- You don't have any grave hate MD, which means you'd just blow out against a fairly amount of MUs. If you're running the Trapsnare's package I'd advocate for a singleton Ravenous Trap in your 60's.
- I agree with Gemini Spartan regarding Lingering Souls, and specially considering that your anti-aggro package is already a heavy one I think you don't need them. If you want some flashback spells to abuse with Orb you should consider Dream Twist, Think Twice, Feeling of Dread or even a singleton Increasing Confusion.
- Your answer for Leyline/PW's seems to be Sphere, which has a great range but is a bit slow and isn't definitive, I'd particularly make a split between enchant hate and general hate (in my case I run 2 Leave No Trace and 2 Pithing Needle).
That's just my opinion, since I'm playing the Esper version now for about 4 month - I know it isn't a lot but that's the impressions I had from playing it.
Was nosing around on SCG and found this list. It top 8'd an IQ earlier in the month....
Any thoughts?
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"A prince must imitate the Fox and the Lion, for the Lion cannot protect himself from traps and the Fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a Fox to recognize traps, and a Lion to frighten wolves." -- Machiavelli
It seems like a more old fashioned list. Cutting all the Crabs makes all kind of opponent's removal useless, since Snapacaster's CA is immediate anyway. However, the Crabs won so many games for me already - an open hand with 2 Crabs can accelerate our win by 2~3 turns.
I find it odd to run so many 5cmc spells with a 22-land deck. But I guess the Howling Mines can give you the land drop right in time for your Echoes and Jaces to no stay dead in hand.
I'm not such a fan of Damnation, specially running a Snapcaster package it should be not a problem to rely in Darkness instead, which would give time enough for win while letting us keep our pressure.
I guess the singleton Hero's Downfall is for troublesome PW's in Jund/Rock/4cc, eventually removing an annoying creature too. Again, you wouldn't rely in a single spot removal if not by Mine (and I guess the Snapcaster recurrence). Too mana expensive in my opinion.
Already saw Urborg in another lists, and guess it could be a good mana fixer, just don't know where to find a slot for it specially running Crab which demands a higher percentage of fetches.
3 Ensnaring Bridges seems a lot, and running so many 4/5cmc spells I don't know wether it effectively stops aggro swarms right after it lands.
Missed the grave hate on SB, although it seems he attacks by other angles both GR Tron and Reanimate.
It deserve some testing of course ! I wonder how it performs compared to the shell we're developing here ('Burn' UB, Esper and UBg).
Came 2nd going 3-0-1 in FNM last night! Deck I ran was like previous but I took out the tome scours and one crypt incursion for two Trapmaker's Snare and put in three Cyclonic Rifts.
Game 1 vs "Slow Burn"
No idea what to call this deck other than slow burn. Mostly consists of lots of red creatures and burn spells.
First game was an easy win, milled him to death with glimpse and breakings, got an early crypt incursion to get me to a healthy life total and hardcasted a Archive Trap for the win on turn 5. 1-0
Kept an average hand for the second game. While he got up to speed with creatures, I suddenly ran out of mill cards and had to cast Crypt Incursion around turn 4 to survive, and rely on the topdeck... which turned out to be all lands with no hedron crabs to help me. Had to let in an attack for 7 damage while on 11... then he used a buff that gave all creatures +2/0 for the exact 11 damage. 1-1 and then time was called immediatly after for the draw.
Game 2 vs Biovisionary Clones
Surprisingly easy, managed to mill him out first game with speed, two hedron crabs made it over by turn 5 with him having no time at all. 1-0.
Round two he used the interesting stratagy of doing absolutely nothing when I put out my mesmoric orb, leaving me with trying to topdeck mill and getting more worried with each pass. Milled him out with Glimpse and Funeral to win, although worried he had some sort of backup plan, he didn't have the cards he wanted to activate the combo in the end. 2-0
Game 3 vs Sliver
Creature deck versus Crypt Incursion. CREATURE DECK VERSUS CRYPT INCURSION. I managed to cast an early crypt for 40 to let me survive while my hedron crabs killed him, perfect 12 mill on turn 2. 1-0
Sideboarded in a Elixir of Immortality and actually got to use it. I activated Crypt Incursion early while he was tapped out to get me from 20 to 40 health, then he started to hit me hard by elixiring and swinging with the slivers. Managed to draw another Crypt Incursion to get me to around 60 when I was on 20 again, then milled him out after he swung at me for 25 odd last attack phase. 2-0
Game 4 vs GW Ramp
Kept a 4 land hand. Only drew lands from that point on while he put out two Loxodon Smiters and swung for 10 a turn. 0-1. Here I decided to sideboard in the Jace's Phantasm as he didn't have anything flying from what I could see and I needed blockers.
Managed to use my Mind Funerals to full advantage as his deck was very light on lands in the second game. He didn't put down a creature all game that could block a Phantasm and I killed him on turn 6 using one phantasm while milling him out, Crypt again letting me survive. 1-1.
I swear this game was pure luck, honestly. Got two Jace's Phantasms and started swinging in, zero lifegain on his side. He died on turn four when I swung with both and he was on 10. 2-1.
Thoughts:
- I REALLY was lucky not getting the one guy who could counter me using Aeos Torn in the last game, if I didn't drew the first one I would have had to fight against him.
- Crypt is good, but expensive. I really need Darkness.
- Jace's Phantasms are a brilliant sideboard when your opponent doesn't have any flying or burn to block them.
- Having two Hedron crabs on turn two is an instant win in most scenarios.
- I always hardcasted Archive Trap, leaving me to sideboard it out in most games. Yeah, this is a very casual games shop.
- Need to figure out some sort of speed hate for people getting two 4/4s by turn 3.
- Far // Away is useful, but a bit of a drain on resources and can slow your mill down by a turn.
- I need ways of getting rid of silence and elixir.
@ggDropbear: Congrats man ! Last night I was reading exactly an article about how people need keep in mind their metagame instead of just net-decking, it seems like your list stroke the guys in your shop by the right angle after all !
Still, I'd say you could find slot for 2~3 Ghost Quarter in your 60's. Not only acts as enablers to your 2of Traps, but is also a good answer for the Tron dude.
And you want a good answer to guys which got too huge early in the game ? (Merfolk, Affinity, Sliver, etc) Maybe a singleton or two Ensnaring Bridge can help you. As far as the list has some card advantage you still will be able to keep 3/3+ dudes at bay.
Concerning Elixir, it's not like the guys run 3+ copies, or am I wrong ? In this case maybe you would like Pithing Needle, which also is good against Tron and another bunch of annoying cards.
@Infowarrior: I made a list based on this one you posted, with some personal adjustments, take a look and make some tests if you want too:
Kept a low number of artifacts since they don't benefit our Snapcaster package once they hit the grave. Besides, with this much of CA it's not a problem to find them when you need.
A singleton Jace, cause it's to mana expensive despite of having a good synergy with Orb, once you have the two on board and some Darkness back up you most likely win in 2 turns or so.
Also, add 2 Mind Funeral, which is too powerful of a card to let out of ours 60's.
It can be an interesting new angle (as far as I already played Orb + Snap before), I'll make some tests and think in a SB which can solve our problems despite of having no splash.
I'm really interested in this deck. There are a number of Affinity players in my area, though. How does the archetype stack up against Affinity? Any specific variant work better?
I'm really interested in this deck. There are a number of Affinity players in my area, though. How does the archetype stack up against Affinity? Any specific variant work better?
I'll agree that Stony Silence goes a long way to shutting down Affinity, however they know this and will sideboard their Stony hate in game 2 if they know you're playing white. (You can look in the Affinity thread for their ways of dealing with the enchant) If you don't want to make the full plunge into Esper mill, a small green splash (assuming you have some fetches) for a set of Nature's claim in the SB along with 2 or so Hurkyl's Recall normally do well along with Crypt Incursions and Darknesses. Just make sure you don't side out your card-draw engines to put them in, so you'll be able to draw those answers.
Either way, I encourage you to test out both lists to see which one suits your meta and your playstyle better.
If you have to deal with a lot of Affinity i advise to splash white. This gives you cards like Stoney Silence and Kataki. Furthermore you are able to use Path to Exile which makes Archive Trap even more powerful!
I'll agree that Stony Silence goes a long way to shutting down Affinity, however they know this and will sideboard their Stony hate in game 2 if they know you're playing white. (You can look in the Affinity thread for their ways of dealing with the enchant) If you don't want to make the full plunge into Esper mill, a small green splash (assuming you have some fetches) for a set of Nature's claim in the SB along with 2 or so Hurkyl's Recall normally do well along with Crypt Incursions and Darknesses. Just make sure you don't side out your card-draw engines to put them in, so you'll be able to draw those answers.
Either way, I encourage you to test out both lists to see which one suits your meta and your playstyle better.
Those are great points! Thank you both so much. I'm going to start with Esper and then give BUg a try in the next event.
How do you guys feel about the Melira pod matchup? The fact that they can combo and beat down seems troublesome. Of course, being able to surgically extract the key piece seems nice.
Nice list man ! I know how you feel about Breaking/Sculpt and other lesser mill spells, I just think that relying so much on Snapcaster makes your list a bit slower than the usual 'Burn' game plan.
Also, the only problem about the counterpack is that you'd need to most likely cut some of our anti-aggro package, maybe with cantrips and Snap recurrence you can make for this lost.
Other issue is that our wincons are mostly sorcery speed, so it'll not be that hard to find yourself tapped out with some Remand or Snare in hand. Most of the Mill lists actually likes to play proactive, that's why cheaper reactive spells like Path and Darkness works better than 2CMC counters in my opinion.
Usually at the first 3~4 turns that's it, but once you get a Visions of Beyond it's likely for us to cast 2 spells per turn. That and activating Shelldock Isle, etc.
If I'd play any counter MD I'd advocate for Spell Snare. 1CMC hard counter, shines so much on the draw since we almost don't have any 1st turn play. Stops Goyfs, Confidants, Snapcasters, opposing Remands/Mana Leaks and so on ..
Those are great points! Thank you both so much. I'm going to start with Esper and then give BUg a try in the next event.
How do you guys feel about the Melira pod matchup? The fact that they can combo and beat down seems troublesome. Of course, being able to surgically extract the key piece seems nice.
No problem! Pod can go either way for us, as their infinite life combo does little against our wincon, but recurring murderous redcap can be trouble for us. As long as you know what the general lists are packing (Meliria vs. Kiki) you can be on the lookout for their threats as they hit the graveyard and extract them as needed.
Personally i don't like Cards like Mind Sculpt or Breaking//Entering. I think 7-8 Cards Mill is just not worth running it. I used to play 3-4-of Mind Sculpt when it was released. Didn't get me where i wanted to be. Personally i prefer Snapcaster Mage. He's a bit slower, though i can reuse my powerfull Glimpse, Path, Darkness, Draw Engines.
So what's your opinion on that list?
Well, I've done a lot of testing, and I do feel the need to advise the addition of more threats than just the traps, glimpses, and funerals. It may seem like 11 cards is plenty, but I've lost against standard decks in the last few weeks using my modern list (not many people at FNM have modern decks) because I couldn't find another threat. It sounds weird, but the white weenie aggro deck in standard won against me because I just couldn't find that last spell to mill them for 8, and instead drew extractions that didn't do anything after an incursion. (Pre-sideboard of course). If that taught me anything, its that drawing threats is very important for us. I can have all the Darkness and spot removal I want, but that variance will get us the same as anyone else. (I only use 2 snapcasters, but the 4 Breaking still do work.) And if anyone is running grave-hate (Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite Shaman included) your snappy's might have a sad day.
Either way, I'd like to hear how you do on Tuesday with your list. Which cards were MVPs and which you'd have rather not seen. After the past week and looking at the U/B list that got 8th place a little while ago, I'm reconsidering using Damnation to stabilize the board in the creature-heavy modern meta. If every deck gets nut-draws, its not that great. But most often I can imagine it doing work for us against Geist's in control, and goyfs everywhere else. It's certainly not a wasted play on T4 or T5 when creature decks have over-extended to win. I'll see if it can find a place in MD or SB for me the next time I test for modern.
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I see that Mill can do well against Control and Combo, but I see it having a bad day at the office against aggro and burn.
Thank you!
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Against the faster Affinity...board in Hurkyl's Recall and pray?
I find that most aggro decks with the exception of Affinity have a very poor matchup against our deck. The esper lists run both Darkness and Path to Exile, while other lists run Darkness with Snappy backup. The thing with aggro is that often they need the full 4-5 turns of attacking to win by T5. Delaying them by 1-2 turns with Darkness is usually all we need to get ahead, and a Turn 4 or 5 Crypt Incursion normally gains us enough life to finish them off no matter what their board state is. Affinity/Robots are only hard because they can pull off the infect win on T3, but that requires a god hand for them that we can hope they just don't get. Crypt Incursion again is a winner vs them since they often run 24+ creatures.
Burn is a little harder, but in almost all the modern lists I've seen they use Goblin Guide, Vexing Devil, and their choice of Hellspark Elemental or Keldon Marauders or both. Modern doesn't have quite as many 3 for 1cc burn spells as legacy, so they usually run a few creatures for some sources of recurring damage to get the turn 4-5 win. Gaining at least 6-9 life with Crypt Incursion is enough to (normally) put them in topdeck mode whereas we're playing our Visions of Beyond and other CA generators and winning quickly thereafter.
I normally test my U/B/g mill vs. my Burn and Modern Knights decks and the mill deck is by far the winner most games. Post boarding can go either way, since white has Leyline of Sanctity and Burn has Leyline of Punishment and Skullcrack, but we just have to hope they don't get their answers while we get ours. (But that's the way it goes for every competitive deck)
I think part of the strength of our deck is the game 1 fact that we blank most of the removal in our opponent's decks. Lingering Souls is indeed a very good card for gumming up the board vs creature decks, but tempo is very important for mill, and spending that much mana during an early turn when we should be milling them for all they're worth, could be detrimental. Earlier in the thread we discussed the advantage of using Darkness to stall their win simply because it allows us to play additional mill on the same turn. I agree with that reasoning and have so far played it to my advantage most games where a higher cmc spell would not have allowed me a victory as easily. However, if your esper mill list uses Mesmeric Orb, then I would agree that L.souls and cards like Dream Twist would have a place there because flashback makes milling yourself not so bad.
As always, these are just my opinions and are up for discussion if you disagree. I'm considering which deck I want to take to states for Modern next year, and so far I'm leaning towards Mill the more I play it. But only if we can get the meta-game down and have answers for most of the other decks out there.
Besides this 2 MU's just be aware of Knight of the Reliquary which can turn our wincon against us and swing for lethal in 3rd/4th turn.
I don't know why, but I'm much more concerned about Midrange/Control MU's. Jund has hand disruption, UWr has counters. Both has few but powerful beaters.
Also, other problem I'm suffering in Cockatrice is that many players get mad once they realize I'm playing Mill despite of my description of 'Serious/Competitive' and rage quit. Play testing online is difficult, anybody wants to create a group to test our Mill buildings ?
7x Island
6x Swamp
4x Terramorphic Expanse
4x Evolving Wilds
2x Drowned Catacomb
The Mill
2x Archive Trap
4x Breaking / Entering
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
4x Hedron Crab
3x Mesmeric Orb
4x Mind Funeral
4x Tome Scour
4x Visions of Beyond
4x Thought Scour
4x Crypt Incursion
3x Cyclonic Rift
4x Far / Away
4x Jace's Phantasm
3x Jace, Memory Adept
1x Pithing Needle
**** I Need ASAP: Darkness
Yell at me for not going esper, please. Also nobody activates the Archive Trap in my area which is why it's not a 4 of and only against the two people who have the actual fetch lands or tutors.
Well, I for one won't yell at you for not going Esper lol! Don't know how much of this thread you've read, but FerreiraDaSilva and I have gone back and forth quite a bit on that topic ;).
I'm guessing you're looking for thoughts on your build since you posted here? Hopefully I can offer some help-
1st- I'd decrease the number of maindeck Incursions. You have the full sets of Visions and thought scours, so drawing cards doesn't seem like it'd be a problem. I'd go down to 2 Incursions and add in 2 Far / Aways for some spot removal. I used to run 3 MD Incursions, but found that often I only wanted/needed to use 1 per game. Drawing extras were like dead cards afterwards as far as their effectiveness went.
2nd- It seems like you're going for the all-in mill, so I don't understand the Jace's Phantasms in the SB. I'm guessing they'd come out once you get your set of Darkness, since when I used to run them that was their main purpose - as a defender. Could be good against small aggro decks though if they populate your meta.
3rd- Add Surgical Extraction. It's worth it against any deck. Plus it's the only way your deck can get rid of Leyline of Sanctity permanantly (assuming you bounce it back with Cyclonic Rift then mill another one away that you can then target w/ Extraction).
4th- Investing in good lands is often a 1-time purchase that just keeps on giving. I won't rant on about it, but even sub-par lands like Jwar Isle Refuge and Dimir Aqueduct are inexpensive and can help avoid mana-screw, giving you a leg-up. (Before I got my manabase in order I used the Aqueducts since they helped Hedron Crab's landfall somewhat.)
Hope some of this helps. Looks like you have a powerful deck that just blasts through and doesn't care what your opponent plays. I've always liked that mentality....
In another topic, last nigh I play tested against an Wu Humans list, and it was a blow out. The dude had both fast aggro beaters and a decent counter/control package. Spell Snare is specially cruel to us.
I know humans isn't a common match up but as far as our list still is a tier 2 one we need to be aware of it, the chances of facing unusual MU's on round 2 is great when we are betting in a still in progress archetype.
I've relented and am in the process of making an esper build, which is admittedly largely untested, but I think looks significantly stronger than my previous build.
Here's my list anyway:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/remember-unto-nothing/
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
4x Island
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Watery Grave
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Mesmeric Orb
4x Archive Trap
2x Crypt Incursion
4x Path to Exile
3x Trapmaker's Snare
3x Visions of Beyond
3x Lingering Souls
2x Mind Funeral
4x Hedron Crab
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Surgical Extraction
But I agree, ghost quarter and surgical extraction are awesome, and you also need some removal. Your deck looks like it burns the opponent out pretty well, but there isn't really anything stopping your opponent from killing you other than the race. Adding something like dismember, go for the throat, or even infest could help to buy you a few more turns in the place of darkness.
- First of all, if your major concernment for playing Esper is just to increase your Trap enablers, then I'd suggest you to keep your UB version. With a more solid mana base than Esper (as far as tiny the splash actually would be) you could just increase your Ghost Quarters. When I was playing UB never got screwed by running 3 of those.
- Now, speaking directly about your current list: you have too much aggro hate MD. Cards like Crypt Incursion and Ensnaring Bridge are annoying in multiples, not to mention that the most permanents you run, the least targets for your Snapcaster you'll get after landing a Mesmeric Orb. I personally would drop Bridge and Incursion to 1 each. Keep in mind that Orb itself increases your clock drastically against heavy aggro MUs.
- You don't have any grave hate MD, which means you'd just blow out against a fairly amount of MUs. If you're running the Trapsnare's package I'd advocate for a singleton Ravenous Trap in your 60's.
- I agree with Gemini Spartan regarding Lingering Souls, and specially considering that your anti-aggro package is already a heavy one I think you don't need them. If you want some flashback spells to abuse with Orb you should consider Dream Twist, Think Twice, Feeling of Dread or even a singleton Increasing Confusion.
- Your answer for Leyline/PW's seems to be Sphere, which has a great range but is a bit slow and isn't definitive, I'd particularly make a split between enchant hate and general hate (in my case I run 2 Leave No Trace and 2 Pithing Needle).
That's just my opinion, since I'm playing the Esper version now for about 4 month - I know it isn't a lot but that's the impressions I had from playing it.
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, Memory Adept
Lands (22)
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Shelldock Isle
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Watery Grave
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Howling Mine
3 Archive Trap
1 Hero's Downfall
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Breaking
3 Damnation
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Haunting Echoes
4 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Crypt Incursion
3 Echoing Truth
1 Infest
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
Was nosing around on SCG and found this list. It top 8'd an IQ earlier in the month....
Any thoughts?
I find it odd to run so many 5cmc spells with a 22-land deck. But I guess the Howling Mines can give you the land drop right in time for your Echoes and Jaces to no stay dead in hand.
I'm not such a fan of Damnation, specially running a Snapcaster package it should be not a problem to rely in Darkness instead, which would give time enough for win while letting us keep our pressure.
I guess the singleton Hero's Downfall is for troublesome PW's in Jund/Rock/4cc, eventually removing an annoying creature too. Again, you wouldn't rely in a single spot removal if not by Mine (and I guess the Snapcaster recurrence). Too mana expensive in my opinion.
Already saw Urborg in another lists, and guess it could be a good mana fixer, just don't know where to find a slot for it specially running Crab which demands a higher percentage of fetches.
3 Ensnaring Bridges seems a lot, and running so many 4/5cmc spells I don't know wether it effectively stops aggro swarms right after it lands.
Missed the grave hate on SB, although it seems he attacks by other angles both GR Tron and Reanimate.
It deserve some testing of course ! I wonder how it performs compared to the shell we're developing here ('Burn' UB, Esper and UBg).
Game 1 vs "Slow Burn"
No idea what to call this deck other than slow burn. Mostly consists of lots of red creatures and burn spells.
First game was an easy win, milled him to death with glimpse and breakings, got an early crypt incursion to get me to a healthy life total and hardcasted a Archive Trap for the win on turn 5. 1-0
Kept an average hand for the second game. While he got up to speed with creatures, I suddenly ran out of mill cards and had to cast Crypt Incursion around turn 4 to survive, and rely on the topdeck... which turned out to be all lands with no hedron crabs to help me. Had to let in an attack for 7 damage while on 11... then he used a buff that gave all creatures +2/0 for the exact 11 damage. 1-1 and then time was called immediatly after for the draw.
Game 2 vs Biovisionary Clones
Surprisingly easy, managed to mill him out first game with speed, two hedron crabs made it over by turn 5 with him having no time at all. 1-0.
Round two he used the interesting stratagy of doing absolutely nothing when I put out my mesmoric orb, leaving me with trying to topdeck mill and getting more worried with each pass. Milled him out with Glimpse and Funeral to win, although worried he had some sort of backup plan, he didn't have the cards he wanted to activate the combo in the end. 2-0
Game 3 vs Sliver
Creature deck versus Crypt Incursion. CREATURE DECK VERSUS CRYPT INCURSION. I managed to cast an early crypt for 40 to let me survive while my hedron crabs killed him, perfect 12 mill on turn 2. 1-0
Sideboarded in a Elixir of Immortality and actually got to use it. I activated Crypt Incursion early while he was tapped out to get me from 20 to 40 health, then he started to hit me hard by elixiring and swinging with the slivers. Managed to draw another Crypt Incursion to get me to around 60 when I was on 20 again, then milled him out after he swung at me for 25 odd last attack phase. 2-0
Game 4 vs GW Ramp
Kept a 4 land hand. Only drew lands from that point on while he put out two Loxodon Smiters and swung for 10 a turn. 0-1. Here I decided to sideboard in the Jace's Phantasm as he didn't have anything flying from what I could see and I needed blockers.
Managed to use my Mind Funerals to full advantage as his deck was very light on lands in the second game. He didn't put down a creature all game that could block a Phantasm and I killed him on turn 6 using one phantasm while milling him out, Crypt again letting me survive. 1-1.
I swear this game was pure luck, honestly. Got two Jace's Phantasms and started swinging in, zero lifegain on his side. He died on turn four when I swung with both and he was on 10. 2-1.
Thoughts:
- I REALLY was lucky not getting the one guy who could counter me using Aeos Torn in the last game, if I didn't drew the first one I would have had to fight against him.
- Crypt is good, but expensive. I really need Darkness.
- Jace's Phantasms are a brilliant sideboard when your opponent doesn't have any flying or burn to block them.
- Having two Hedron crabs on turn two is an instant win in most scenarios.
- I always hardcasted Archive Trap, leaving me to sideboard it out in most games. Yeah, this is a very casual games shop.
- Need to figure out some sort of speed hate for people getting two 4/4s by turn 3.
- Far // Away is useful, but a bit of a drain on resources and can slow your mill down by a turn.
- I need ways of getting rid of silence and elixir.
Still, I'd say you could find slot for 2~3 Ghost Quarter in your 60's. Not only acts as enablers to your 2of Traps, but is also a good answer for the Tron dude.
And you want a good answer to guys which got too huge early in the game ? (Merfolk, Affinity, Sliver, etc) Maybe a singleton or two Ensnaring Bridge can help you. As far as the list has some card advantage you still will be able to keep 3/3+ dudes at bay.
Concerning Elixir, it's not like the guys run 3+ copies, or am I wrong ? In this case maybe you would like Pithing Needle, which also is good against Tron and another bunch of annoying cards.
@Infowarrior: I made a list based on this one you posted, with some personal adjustments, take a look and make some tests if you want too:
02 Marsh Flats
03 Watery Grave
02 Island
01 Swamp
03 Darkslick Shores
03 Shelldock Isle
03 Ghost Quarter
01 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
02 Mesmeric Orb
02 Howling Mine
01 Ensnaring Bridge
04 Darkness
01 Crypt Incursion
01 Hero's Downfall
04 Visions of Beyond
04 Surgical Extraction
03 Archive Trap
02 Thought Scour
04 Glimpse the Unthinkable
04 Breaking // Entering
02 Mind Funeral
01 Jace, Memory Adept
Kept a low number of artifacts since they don't benefit our Snapcaster package once they hit the grave. Besides, with this much of CA it's not a problem to find them when you need.
A singleton Jace, cause it's to mana expensive despite of having a good synergy with Orb, once you have the two on board and some Darkness back up you most likely win in 2 turns or so.
Also, add 2 Mind Funeral, which is too powerful of a card to let out of ours 60's.
It can be an interesting new angle (as far as I already played Orb + Snap before), I'll make some tests and think in a SB which can solve our problems despite of having no splash.
I'll agree that Stony Silence goes a long way to shutting down Affinity, however they know this and will sideboard their Stony hate in game 2 if they know you're playing white. (You can look in the Affinity thread for their ways of dealing with the enchant) If you don't want to make the full plunge into Esper mill, a small green splash (assuming you have some fetches) for a set of Nature's claim in the SB along with 2 or so Hurkyl's Recall normally do well along with Crypt Incursions and Darknesses. Just make sure you don't side out your card-draw engines to put them in, so you'll be able to draw those answers.
Either way, I encourage you to test out both lists to see which one suits your meta and your playstyle better.
Those are great points! Thank you both so much. I'm going to start with Esper and then give BUg a try in the next event.
How do you guys feel about the Melira pod matchup? The fact that they can combo and beat down seems troublesome. Of course, being able to surgically extract the key piece seems nice.
Also, the only problem about the counterpack is that you'd need to most likely cut some of our anti-aggro package, maybe with cantrips and Snap recurrence you can make for this lost.
Other issue is that our wincons are mostly sorcery speed, so it'll not be that hard to find yourself tapped out with some Remand or Snare in hand. Most of the Mill lists actually likes to play proactive, that's why cheaper reactive spells like Path and Darkness works better than 2CMC counters in my opinion.
If I'd play any counter MD I'd advocate for Spell Snare. 1CMC hard counter, shines so much on the draw since we almost don't have any 1st turn play. Stops Goyfs, Confidants, Snapcasters, opposing Remands/Mana Leaks and so on ..
No problem! Pod can go either way for us, as their infinite life combo does little against our wincon, but recurring murderous redcap can be trouble for us. As long as you know what the general lists are packing (Meliria vs. Kiki) you can be on the lookout for their threats as they hit the graveyard and extract them as needed.
Well, I've done a lot of testing, and I do feel the need to advise the addition of more threats than just the traps, glimpses, and funerals. It may seem like 11 cards is plenty, but I've lost against standard decks in the last few weeks using my modern list (not many people at FNM have modern decks) because I couldn't find another threat. It sounds weird, but the white weenie aggro deck in standard won against me because I just couldn't find that last spell to mill them for 8, and instead drew extractions that didn't do anything after an incursion. (Pre-sideboard of course). If that taught me anything, its that drawing threats is very important for us. I can have all the Darkness and spot removal I want, but that variance will get us the same as anyone else. (I only use 2 snapcasters, but the 4 Breaking still do work.) And if anyone is running grave-hate (Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite Shaman included) your snappy's might have a sad day.
Either way, I'd like to hear how you do on Tuesday with your list. Which cards were MVPs and which you'd have rather not seen. After the past week and looking at the U/B list that got 8th place a little while ago, I'm reconsidering using Damnation to stabilize the board in the creature-heavy modern meta. If every deck gets nut-draws, its not that great. But most often I can imagine it doing work for us against Geist's in control, and goyfs everywhere else. It's certainly not a wasted play on T4 or T5 when creature decks have over-extended to win. I'll see if it can find a place in MD or SB for me the next time I test for modern.