You can also mill them until their library is only Nexus of Fate, provided that they have nothing else to advance the boardstate or otherwise win, a judge will force them to do something besides just draw and cast (or discard) the Nexus of Fate over and over.
Why should judge force them. They force a draw with kinda infinite loop and thats better than a loss.
Looks like mill cant win as long as they are able to cast Nexus
Btw single Nexus of Fate in the sideboard enables this strategy vs Mill
Dont play anything, even lands
if you have Nexus of Fate in hand, discard it to hand size, otherwise discard random card
now you are immune to Mill
they cant mill you because Nexus is always in your library on their turn (if you draw you discard it, if you dont draw it, it is in library)
and if they mill you you always have atleast one card to draw (Nexus)
then they will deck themselves eventually
Sorry, Timba but that is entirely wrong and I have spoken with multiple judges about this specifically.
They have to do another action unless they have no choice or their action progresses the game. Simply taking another turn does nothing to progress the game. I assure you, if your opponent is doing nothing but drawing and casting Nexus of Fate (or discarding it to just draw and discard it again) then a Judge will tell them they cannot continue to do those plays and the game will end with them being unable to draw a card when they take their next turn.
"Loops may span multiple turns if a game state is not meaningfully changing. Note that drawing cards other than the ones being used to sustain the loop is a meaningful change. If two or more players are involved in maintaining a loop across turns, each player chooses a number of iterations to perform, or announces their intent to continue indefinitely. If all players choose to continue indefinitely, the game is a draw. Otherwise, the game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority at the point they stop taking an action to sustain the loop."
Essentially if your opponent is just drawing and discarding for their turn, and not doing anything else, they are not advancing the game state.
Per a lvl 2 judge I asked specifically about the discard loophole you mentioned
Q: If a player is just discard a card and passing the turn, either Nexus of Fate specifically or otherwise doing nothing until they reduce their library to only Nexus of Fate via this process of draw, discard, pass turn - am I able to call a judge to stop this tactic, and when can I do so?
A:If you feel that the player can make a play that isn't discarding Nexus, you can call a judge to confirm this.
Q: would that include discarding another card and losing the game?
A: Correct. An exception would be if they could move the game forward, like attacking with a 1/1, and use the nexus discard to stay in.
also, Mill is probably not being played as much because people don't want to face dredge & phoenix decks because they are not the easiest and also a lot of people do not understand how to properly play against them and Standard has certainly been much more popular, along with Arena and the grind to hit Mythic probably eating into peoples play time.
Format is still fine for Mill imo, and is getting better for it each week as more people pack more graveyard hate to fight dredge and phoenix and play more midrange and control decks as a result of this need to fight the graveyard centric decks. As you're surely aware, a midrange and control uptick is very good for Mill and the natural predator for Midrange and Control is Big Mana decks and Combo decks which are also reasonably good meta matchups for Mill.
I think now that mill is a thing people are playing better against it. The fact we haven't seen a 5-0 MTGO list in a while is rather concerning. I always thought the phoenix matchup was easy. Dredge is a lot trickier though.
Yeah, Dredge is a little tougher because it's hard to hide behind a bridge in G2, and you can't go full bore with the mill spells until you're set up to do something about their graveyard. Hitting Phoenix decks with mill isn't too bad as long as you have a single extraction effect to snag the Phoenix.
Post board you're also much more likely to still be able to hide behind the Bridge against the UR Phoenix decks, since they almost always only have 2 Abrade postboard to try to stop the Bridge. Dredge sides in 6-8 ways to handle Bridges, so I often side them out (along with Orbs, IoK, and Brutality) and load up on all the removal and Surgical effects, along with Echoing Truth and Night of Soul's Betrayal.
I've found against Dredge that trying to mull aggressively to hands with Surgical and Extirpates is best G2/3 and to use them on Creeping Chill first if possible and then rely on your board wipes and removal + Crypt Incursion / Surgical effects to hit their creatures and Conflagrates.
Essentially if your opponent is just drawing and discarding for their turn, and not doing anything else, they are not advancing the game state.
Per a lvl 2 judge I asked specifically about the discard loophole you mentioned
Q: If a player is just discard a card and passing the turn, either Nexus of Fate specifically or otherwise doing nothing until they reduce their library to only Nexus of Fate via this process of draw, discard, pass turn - am I able to call a judge to stop this tactic, and when can I do so?
A:If you feel that the player can make a play that isn't discarding Nexus, you can call a judge to confirm this.
Q: would that include discarding another card and losing the game?
A: Correct. An exception would be if they could move the game forward, like attacking with a 1/1, and use the nexus discard to stay in.
I feel like this is wrong, i'm asking some judges, and there is a difference between casting endless turn without wincons and just discarding to handsize.
When you discard to handsize, you make the game move forward, cause your opponent got their turn, draw their cards, and do some stuff.
Corner cases can be if the mill player got himself immune to mill. But i can't see discarding to handsize beiing a problem, if it doesn't take 1 minute to do.
Essentially if your opponent is just drawing and discarding for their turn, and not doing anything else, they are not advancing the game state.
Per a lvl 2 judge I asked specifically about the discard loophole you mentioned
Q: If a player is just discard a card and passing the turn, either Nexus of Fate specifically or otherwise doing nothing until they reduce their library to only Nexus of Fate via this process of draw, discard, pass turn - am I able to call a judge to stop this tactic, and when can I do so?
A:If you feel that the player can make a play that isn't discarding Nexus, you can call a judge to confirm this.
Q: would that include discarding another card and losing the game?
A: Correct. An exception would be if they could move the game forward, like attacking with a 1/1, and use the nexus discard to stay in.
I feel like this is wrong, i'm asking some judges, and there is a difference between casting endless turn without wincons and just discarding to handsize.
When you discard to handsize, you make the game move forward, cause your opponent got their turn, draw their cards, and do some stuff.
Corner cases can be if the mill player got himself immune to mill. But i can't see discarding to handsize beiing a problem, if it doesn't take 1 minute to do.
I wanted to make a thread in rules section but thats just a no brainer for me
Of course you can discard Nexus to hand size
Thats not a loop
Game progresses for sure as your opp draws a card and is one step closer to decking himself
I wanted to make a thread in rules section but thats just a no brainer for me
Of course you can discard Nexus to hand size
Thats not a loop
Game progresses for sure as your opp draws a card and is one step closer to decking himself
I find it very interesting that so many of you have finally come around to splashing green, as I recommended last year. Assassin's Trophy is indeed a great addition, and completely solves our need for an answer to Leyline of Sanctity.
I've moved beyond UBg mill, and am currently running rUG mill. It is an aggro speed race, with a T3 win. Waiting on the last few pieces, and then I'll be trying it out locally. I'm excited to see how it goes.
The strategy, is to get a Sakura-Tribe Scout (STS) down T1. He will be vulnerable, so you have to hope he can survive their turn. Alternately, you can play Amulet of Vigor as a 2nd line.
Turn 2, you tap him to add a 3rd land. There really is nothing else to do this turn, except drop Amulet if you have it. Leave U mana open to counter anything that attempts to remove the STS. She is the key to the deck. At the end of their turn, use the mana to draw a card with one of the 12 cantrips and find the other pieces. 8 of them will give you a fourth land. On line 2, you drop a bounce land for the mana. Now that you have protection, go ahead and play STS, and Hedron Crab. Just make sure you hold up U for Spell Snare to protect them.
T3, Go ahead and drop another land with your land drop for the turn. You now have 4 mana. If you played Amulet, you can drop a bounceland, but only if you have another in hand. Otherwise, drop a regular land. You can now play Retreat to Coralhelm, being sure to keep U mana open. Tap STS to drop a bounceland. Tap it for mana, and return it to hand. Untap STS. Now that you have the mana to protect your creatures with Spell Pierce, go ahead and drop Hedron Crab. Repeat dropping the bounceland and untapping STS until the opponent is milled out. Pass Turn. If you are missing anything, use the continual mana to cast the cantrips to find the missing pieces. Don't forget to use Young Pyromancer to create a line of chump blockers.
If you are on line 2, Turn 3 unfolds in the same way.
You will come out of the gate T1 and T2 acting very much like an Amulet Titan deck that isn't going well, which should make them take different, non-optimal lines. They will likely try to attack your Amulet, which is ok. It slows you down a turn, but much better they spend their removal on that. What you do not want them to do is take away your STS, since it A: ramps you into a faster win, and B: is part of the engine that wins you the game. Do not drop your Hedron Crab until you are ready to win the game. On turn 3, if they are on the draw, they will not have the mana to cast a counterspell and satisfy Spell Pierce, which means they lose. Alternately, they cannot cast 1 mana removal (Push, Path, Bolt) and pay Spell Pierce costs. If they are on the play, to have the mana, they did nothing on their turn 3, which is highly unlikely. To put it simply, if they have only 2 mana untapped, they cannot stop you. Go for broke. If they have 3 or more open, proceed with caution.
Note: Lands may need to be adjusted. Advice is very helpful.
I wanted to make a thread in rules section but thats just a no brainer for me
Of course you can discard Nexus to hand size
Thats not a loop
Game progresses for sure as your opp draws a card and is one step closer to decking himself
So after a lot more research into it, and reading through the MTR and CR and the responses from the thread I posted as well as several other threads concerning this sort of thing, it looks like I was wrong about the discard portion.
Long story short - they can't just loop Nexus to take infinite turns and do nothing with their turns, but they can just discard Nexus to make them never run out of cards in library.
I would support having at least 1 Unmoored Ego on my sideboard if I'm playing UB Mill right now. Too easy to risk an auto loss if you run into anyone with one in their deck and the Sultai Reclamation deck is picking up a little more steam in the last week as well.
Agreed. It's also really nice to be able to hit various other nonsense with (Nature's Claims, Deputy of Detention, Knight of Autumn, Ancient Grudge, etc. if you're on the Protect the Bridge plan) or just as a way to proactively limit their threats like Primeval Titan, Karn, or Ad Nauseum, or cards that might get in the way of you milling, like Arclight Phoenix or Creeping Chills
Looks like mill cant win as long as they are able to cast Nexus
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Dont play anything, even lands
if you have Nexus of Fate in hand, discard it to hand size, otherwise discard random card
now you are immune to Mill
they cant mill you because Nexus is always in your library on their turn (if you draw you discard it, if you dont draw it, it is in library)
and if they mill you you always have atleast one card to draw (Nexus)
then they will deck themselves eventually
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
They have to do another action unless they have no choice or their action progresses the game. Simply taking another turn does nothing to progress the game. I assure you, if your opponent is doing nothing but drawing and casting Nexus of Fate (or discarding it to just draw and discard it again) then a Judge will tell them they cannot continue to do those plays and the game will end with them being unable to draw a card when they take their next turn.
"Loops may span multiple turns if a game state is not meaningfully changing. Note that drawing cards other than the ones being used to sustain the loop is a meaningful change. If two or more players are involved in maintaining a loop across turns, each player chooses a number of iterations to perform, or announces their intent to continue indefinitely. If all players choose to continue indefinitely, the game is a draw. Otherwise, the game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority at the point they stop taking an action to sustain the loop."
Source: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-4/
Also, see this tweet specifically about Nexus of Fate from a Level 2 judge:
https://twitter.com/MaxPlaysMTG/status/1092946887949221888
But I'm 99% sure discard to hand size strategy in my second comment is a valid
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Per a lvl 2 judge I asked specifically about the discard loophole you mentioned
Q: If a player is just discard a card and passing the turn, either Nexus of Fate specifically or otherwise doing nothing until they reduce their library to only Nexus of Fate via this process of draw, discard, pass turn - am I able to call a judge to stop this tactic, and when can I do so?
A:If you feel that the player can make a play that isn't discarding Nexus, you can call a judge to confirm this.
Q: would that include discarding another card and losing the game?
A: Correct. An exception would be if they could move the game forward, like attacking with a 1/1, and use the nexus discard to stay in.
also, Mill is probably not being played as much because people don't want to face dredge & phoenix decks because they are not the easiest and also a lot of people do not understand how to properly play against them and Standard has certainly been much more popular, along with Arena and the grind to hit Mythic probably eating into peoples play time.
Format is still fine for Mill imo, and is getting better for it each week as more people pack more graveyard hate to fight dredge and phoenix and play more midrange and control decks as a result of this need to fight the graveyard centric decks. As you're surely aware, a midrange and control uptick is very good for Mill and the natural predator for Midrange and Control is Big Mana decks and Combo decks which are also reasonably good meta matchups for Mill.
Post board you're also much more likely to still be able to hide behind the Bridge against the UR Phoenix decks, since they almost always only have 2 Abrade postboard to try to stop the Bridge. Dredge sides in 6-8 ways to handle Bridges, so I often side them out (along with Orbs, IoK, and Brutality) and load up on all the removal and Surgical effects, along with Echoing Truth and Night of Soul's Betrayal.
I've found against Dredge that trying to mull aggressively to hands with Surgical and Extirpates is best G2/3 and to use them on Creeping Chill first if possible and then rely on your board wipes and removal + Crypt Incursion / Surgical effects to hit their creatures and Conflagrates.
I feel like this is wrong, i'm asking some judges, and there is a difference between casting endless turn without wincons and just discarding to handsize.
When you discard to handsize, you make the game move forward, cause your opponent got their turn, draw their cards, and do some stuff.
Corner cases can be if the mill player got himself immune to mill. But i can't see discarding to handsize beiing a problem, if it doesn't take 1 minute to do.
Please let us know what the judges you ask say, because I'm still quite certain I'm correct.
Of course you can discard Nexus to hand size
Thats not a loop
Game progresses for sure as your opp draws a card and is one step closer to decking himself
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Well, since you didn't I did make a rules question thread. Hopefully, this settles the issue.
I've moved beyond UBg mill, and am currently running rUG mill. It is an aggro speed race, with a T3 win. Waiting on the last few pieces, and then I'll be trying it out locally. I'm excited to see how it goes.
The deck is as follows:
Creatures:
4 Sakura-Tribe Scout
4 Hedron Crab
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Walking Atlas
Instant
4 Cerulean Wisps
4 Growth Spiral
4 Opt
4 Spell Pierce
Artifact
4 Amulet of Vigor
Enchantment
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
Lands
4 Botanical Sanctum
4 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Izzet Boilerworks
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Simic Growth Chamber
2 Steam Vents
The strategy, is to get a Sakura-Tribe Scout (STS) down T1. He will be vulnerable, so you have to hope he can survive their turn. Alternately, you can play Amulet of Vigor as a 2nd line.
Turn 2, you tap him to add a 3rd land. There really is nothing else to do this turn, except drop Amulet if you have it. Leave U mana open to counter anything that attempts to remove the STS. She is the key to the deck. At the end of their turn, use the mana to draw a card with one of the 12 cantrips and find the other pieces. 8 of them will give you a fourth land. On line 2, you drop a bounce land for the mana. Now that you have protection, go ahead and play STS, and Hedron Crab. Just make sure you hold up U for Spell Snare to protect them.
T3, Go ahead and drop another land with your land drop for the turn. You now have 4 mana. If you played Amulet, you can drop a bounceland, but only if you have another in hand. Otherwise, drop a regular land. You can now play Retreat to Coralhelm, being sure to keep U mana open. Tap STS to drop a bounceland. Tap it for mana, and return it to hand. Untap STS. Now that you have the mana to protect your creatures with Spell Pierce, go ahead and drop Hedron Crab. Repeat dropping the bounceland and untapping STS until the opponent is milled out. Pass Turn. If you are missing anything, use the continual mana to cast the cantrips to find the missing pieces. Don't forget to use Young Pyromancer to create a line of chump blockers.
If you are on line 2, Turn 3 unfolds in the same way.
You will come out of the gate T1 and T2 acting very much like an Amulet Titan deck that isn't going well, which should make them take different, non-optimal lines. They will likely try to attack your Amulet, which is ok. It slows you down a turn, but much better they spend their removal on that. What you do not want them to do is take away your STS, since it A: ramps you into a faster win, and B: is part of the engine that wins you the game. Do not drop your Hedron Crab until you are ready to win the game. On turn 3, if they are on the draw, they will not have the mana to cast a counterspell and satisfy Spell Pierce, which means they lose. Alternately, they cannot cast 1 mana removal (Push, Path, Bolt) and pay Spell Pierce costs. If they are on the play, to have the mana, they did nothing on their turn 3, which is highly unlikely. To put it simply, if they have only 2 mana untapped, they cannot stop you. Go for broke. If they have 3 or more open, proceed with caution.
Note: Lands may need to be adjusted. Advice is very helpful.
So after a lot more research into it, and reading through the MTR and CR and the responses from the thread I posted as well as several other threads concerning this sort of thing, it looks like I was wrong about the discard portion.
Long story short - they can't just loop Nexus to take infinite turns and do nothing with their turns, but they can just discard Nexus to make them never run out of cards in library.
I would support having at least 1 Unmoored Ego on my sideboard if I'm playing UB Mill right now. Too easy to risk an auto loss if you run into anyone with one in their deck and the Sultai Reclamation deck is picking up a little more steam in the last week as well.
I really think the unmoored ego is the way to go, you can pull other cards of the deck which is more powerful than void shatter