List looks very good. My current version is almost the same main deck, just -2 Visions of Beyond, -1 Surgical Extraction, + 1 Ensnaring Bridge, + 2 Fraying Sanity. Land base is a little different, I'm testing 1 Academy Ruins and have liked it so far.
His sideboard looks strong, the Ravenous Traps are a good hedge against Bridgevine and still helpful against KCI and Storm. The Dismembers seem odd to me, I prefer Cast Down for sideboard spot removal since there's few Legendary creatures we really care about and they can hit any size creature.
I assume the extra dismember is for delve threats since he isn't playing Leyline of the Void. I would miss Leyline too much against delve decks like Hollow One and Shadow. If you aren't playing against Gurmag Angler or Tasigur then I could see not having Leylines. I don't think I'm ready to cut them.
I've been testing the Bontu's a little bit and the no untap is definitely not free. Feels like a worse Damnation in almost all cases and if you need a T3 board wipe Flaying Tendrils/Drown of Sorrow should be good enough to get the job done. I could see Bontu's being better against a Thalia in play and that's about it. My experience with Bontu's has been they just replay their threats and then you time walk yourself and they get to swing again. I think I'd play either Yahenni's Expertise/Languish or a 2nd Damnation.
I've found myself always wanting to draw Bridge. It feels like the best card in the deck and I'm starting to wonder why I don't just jam 4 in the main. In a would you rather want Bridge or Crypt Incursion against:
Humans - Bridge, crypt incursion is also good but not game winning G1.
Bridgevine- if they run Gargadon bridge can keep them from killing you. If they have a slow start Crypt incursion can be great too. I guess Crypt Incursion?
Hollow One- Bridge by a mile
Tron- bridge
UW Control- Bridge, I guess? Neither are really good
Jeskai- Crypt Incursion
Affinity- Crypt Incursion
Infect- Bridge (not super good but can sometimes win, incursion is not a card)
Shadow- Bridge by a mile
Burn- Crypt Incursion by a mile
KCI- Crypt Incursion, but I don't think its very good (bridge isn't really a card)
Bogles- Bridge by a mile
Ponza- I think bridge? Crypt incursion was fine as well
Jund- Crypt Incursion post board, very similar g1
Abzan- see above
Feel free to think/add whatever decks I didn't or argue my comments but I feel like outside of burn/humans/infect/affinity I want bridge and the previous mentioned decks aren't super popular outside of humans. It just seems the Bridge matchups are being played more than the Crypt Incursion matchups.
I’ve been thinking it might be too slow against aggro, but how about spells like darkness and deluge against aggro? Basically fog them out and reap the mesmeric orb triggers.
Mission Briefing is an interesting one, the snapcaster effect that we really wanted!
Since it's not flashback, it lets us recast Archive Traps from the gy for free, as well as any other snapcaster shenanigans.
Surveil 2 is also useful to dig a bit and reduce dead draws, whether it's more valuable than the 2/1 body will depend on the match I think, but being able to "flashback" Archive Traps makes it very interesting.
Edit: Mausoleum Secrets is worth testing if you're playing several creatures, since getting a surgical, a push, a brutality or crypt incursion at instant speed can be great, and may also make Darkness worth it as a 1 of, in a more toolbox approach.
I totally dig it. I've loved Snapcaster in my deck, especially with Orbs. I think there's a lot of synergy with Orb, Snappy, Academy Ruins, and now this. Part of the benefit of the Snapcaster effect is also that if your opponent is hiding behind a Leyline, you can point Glimpse at your own library to hopefully hit your sideboard cards with a Snapcaster or Mission Briefing now.
I think it fits in as a replacement for Snapcaster, I'm gonna start with 2 of, but wouldn't be surprised to end up with 4 or even 6 (4 Briefing, 2 snappy probly) of these types of effects. Casting Archive Trap for 0 as flashback is huge.
If ~this~ would deal damage to a creature or player, you may have it deal no damage and have an opponent exile the top 3 cards of their library instead.
also this would be nice too
U/B
Sorcery
Surveil 1
Each opponent puts the top 4 cards from their library into their graveyard
It's interesting that the Dimir Guild has not yet had a mill card revealed. They're really pushing Surveil, which admittedly is a pretty powerful mechanic.
I'm interested to see the split card. Mill's biggest weakness I find is Leyline of Sanctity and Eldrazi effects, with the latter being really effing annoying, so I'm keen to see a toolbox card that maybe can deal with that.
It's interesting that the Dimir Guild has not yet had a mill card revealed. They're really pushing Surveil, which admittedly is a pretty powerful mechanic.
I'm interested to see the split card. Mill's biggest weakness I find is Leyline of Sanctity and Eldrazi effects, with the latter being really effing annoying, so I'm keen to see a toolbox card that maybe can deal with that.
rare split was a bust
eldrazi effects are not such a big problem now... we have surgical, leyline of the void or, if you want to be really inventive, old lazav...
LoS effect is still a big problem that i really want the mill card on this set to address.... in case we get one... sigh
BUT - with Assassin's Trophy being an amazing source of removal for any permanent AND giving an optional search trigger for our activating our Archive Traps, as well as Mission Briefing letting us rebuy all our mill spells (particularly ones milled via our own Mesmeric Orb) and a UU version of Archive Trap when Alternate Casting cost is active... this is probably worth exploring.
In addition to the usual sideboard cards - other notable sideboard cards in green that would possibly be able to support now would include Nature's Claim for Leyline of Sanctity, Abrupt Decay for utility, and even some off the wall stuff like Pulse of Murasa vs burn, Melira, Sylvok Outcast vs infect, Golgari Charm, and adding green would make better use of Engineered Explosives as well
we have like 14 rares left... but i dont think dimir has more than 1-2 spells left at rare, so its likely we wont get the milling spell we are all waiting for...
and if u guys are trying to mill with AT, as an ex-esper mill player, its not worth the splash... your deck gets way less consistent, and opponents wont go for the land most of the time... just go ub instead...
besides if we DO get a milling spell, it will be probably phrased as "each opponent", rendering the whole "LoS" issue mute
I used to be a big believer in Esper mill but after jumping to UB I agree that tri-colour decks are WAY less consistent, and that the UB shell performs the best. Also, Blood Moon is running around everywhere and completely hoses tri-colour decks.
Right now I think Mill is at a decent place. I feel in most match-ups we have a pretty decent chance, but for me at least on MTGO it's the random Emrakul and Leylines that completely just blindside us. After Fraying Sanity and Field of Ruin were printed the deck got a pretty good boost in power so I feel that a couple of little mill-specific toolbox kits would be really great.
That Lost Legacy effect for 1UB is a nice sideboard card for us.
Very reasonable cost, it's extra ways of removing annoying cards (titans and such if they make a comeback), combo pieces without even milling them first, or their boarded answer to Bridge to lock them out!
I also like the black tutor a lot, and Mission Briefing as well. A lot of room for tinkering post GRN for UB mill I feel, and I do like how the deck's positioned currently.
that "may" take care of the eldrazi problem(has not been such a big deal since 2015 to begin with)
BUT...
i was actually expecting a "glimpse" with "each opponent" attached,
that would largely solve the leyline problem, since we already have the tools to grind slowly(manic scribe, mesmeric orb) but we need the big spell to keep the pressure, since 8/10 times they would run us over when they have LoS on play
With Mission Briefing, I almost think it might work to have a UW control shell now that we can flash back our Archive Traps on the cheap. My only black cards currently across main and board are 4 Glimpse, 3 Push, 2 Brutality, 2 Crypt Incursion, and 2 Damnation (SB). I'm counting Surgical (3x) as colourless here. That's not a huge incentive to go with black when white could provide a lot more.
I'm thinking of:
-2 Brutality
-3 Ensnaring Bridge (Doesn't play nicely with control)
+3 Thought Scour (cantrip plus instant speed mill)
+2 Settle the Wreckage
-8 Creatures (crabs and scribes)
+7 Counterspells (right now thinking 3 Cryptic, 2 Logic Knot, 2 Negate but maybe Spell Snare for tempo?)
+1 Psychic Spiral (reach after mesmeric orbing my graveyard down. Instant speed!)
Straight (mostly) equivalent replacements
-4 Glimpse; +4 Mission Briefing
-2 Crypt Incursion; +2 Profane Memento (maybe Timely Reinforcements?)
-3 Push; +3 Path
-2 Damnation; +2 Supreme Verdict (but in the main instead of SB)
With 4 Field of Ruin and 4 Path, it should be easy enough to get them to search to activate Trap/Briefing. With field of ruin forced search, even when they don't fetch for Path we can still get them. I'm thinking 22 lands should be enough (instead of 25 like regular control uses) because we're not aiming to resolve a 5 mana Planeswalker with protection up to win the game. More just a bunch of 0 or 2 mana spells (Trap, Orb, Briefing) and then just slow them down enough to make the Orbs hurt them, with Traps being a big burn.
Anyway, I'm going to proxy up this UW list and try it tomorrow with my friends. Our meta includes Hardened Scales, Spirits, GB Eldrazi Rock, BW Tokens, UR Wizards, Burn, and UW Miracle Control. Notably no Humans (could be a bad matchup) and no Tron (UW struggles against them, but with Surgicals in my main board it's usually alright).
With Mission Briefing, I almost think it might work to have a UW control shell now that we can flash back our Archive Traps on the cheap. My only black cards currently across main and board are 4 Glimpse, 3 Push, 2 Brutality, 2 Crypt Incursion, and 2 Damnation (SB). I'm counting Surgical (3x) as colourless here. That's not a huge incentive to go with black when white could provide a lot more.
I'm thinking of:
-2 Brutality
-3 Ensnaring Bridge (Doesn't play nicely with control)
+3 Thought Scour (cantrip plus instant speed mill)
+2 Settle the Wreckage
-8 Creatures (crabs and scribes)
+7 Counterspells (right now thinking 3 Cryptic, 2 Logic Knot, 2 Negate but maybe Spell Snare for tempo?)
+1 Psychic Spiral (reach after mesmeric orbing my graveyard down. Instant speed!)
Straight (mostly) equivalent replacements
-4 Glimpse; +4 Mission Briefing
-2 Crypt Incursion; +2 Profane Memento (maybe Timely Reinforcements?)
-3 Push; +3 Path
-2 Damnation; +2 Supreme Verdict (but in the main instead of SB)
With 4 Field of Ruin and 4 Path, it should be easy enough to get them to search to activate Trap/Briefing. With field of ruin forced search, even when they don't fetch for Path we can still get them. I'm thinking 22 lands should be enough (instead of 25 like regular control uses) because we're not aiming to resolve a 5 mana Planeswalker with protection up to win the game. More just a bunch of 0 or 2 mana spells (Trap, Orb, Briefing) and then just slow them down enough to make the Orbs hurt them, with Traps being a big burn.
Anyway, I'm going to proxy up this UW list and try it tomorrow with my friends. Our meta includes Hardened Scales, Spirits, GB Eldrazi Rock, BW Tokens, UR Wizards, Burn, and UW Miracle Control. Notably no Humans (could be a bad matchup) and no Tron (UW struggles against them, but with Surgicals in my main board it's usually alright).
A few of us Mill hipsters feel the same way about UW mill being worth exploring, especially now with some new tools that the new set has brought us. But let's be honest here, you lose a lot of utility when you leave Black. White has its own interesting options, like Timely Reinforcements (which has been stellar for me) and a strong suite of sideboard cards, but can Mission Briefing be strong enough to ease the loss of Glimpse The Unthinkable, Crypt Incursion, Collective Brutality, Bontu's Last Reckoning, etc? That's a lot to ask. In my opinion, I believe it's a mistake to go all in on one mill spell (Archive Trap) and I've found that the deck needs Hedron Crab and Manic Scribe to diversify your "threats". I'm interested to hear your results of a more "controlling" shell, I haven't had much luck with it, but Mission Briefing may have given this style a little more game. At any rate, we have a thread discussing UW Mill in the Deck Creation section here:
His sideboard looks strong, the Ravenous Traps are a good hedge against Bridgevine and still helpful against KCI and Storm. The Dismembers seem odd to me, I prefer Cast Down for sideboard spot removal since there's few Legendary creatures we really care about and they can hit any size creature.
I've been testing the Bontu's a little bit and the no untap is definitely not free. Feels like a worse Damnation in almost all cases and if you need a T3 board wipe Flaying Tendrils/Drown of Sorrow should be good enough to get the job done. I could see Bontu's being better against a Thalia in play and that's about it. My experience with Bontu's has been they just replay their threats and then you time walk yourself and they get to swing again. I think I'd play either Yahenni's Expertise/Languish or a 2nd Damnation.
I've found myself always wanting to draw Bridge. It feels like the best card in the deck and I'm starting to wonder why I don't just jam 4 in the main. In a would you rather want Bridge or Crypt Incursion against:
Humans - Bridge, crypt incursion is also good but not game winning G1.
Bridgevine- if they run Gargadon bridge can keep them from killing you. If they have a slow start Crypt incursion can be great too. I guess Crypt Incursion?
Hollow One- Bridge by a mile
Tron- bridge
UW Control- Bridge, I guess? Neither are really good
Jeskai- Crypt Incursion
Affinity- Crypt Incursion
Infect- Bridge (not super good but can sometimes win, incursion is not a card)
Shadow- Bridge by a mile
Burn- Crypt Incursion by a mile
KCI- Crypt Incursion, but I don't think its very good (bridge isn't really a card)
Bogles- Bridge by a mile
Ponza- I think bridge? Crypt incursion was fine as well
Jund- Crypt Incursion post board, very similar g1
Abzan- see above
Feel free to think/add whatever decks I didn't or argue my comments but I feel like outside of burn/humans/infect/affinity I want bridge and the previous mentioned decks aren't super popular outside of humans. It just seems the Bridge matchups are being played more than the Crypt Incursion matchups.
Since it's not flashback, it lets us recast Archive Traps from the gy for free, as well as any other snapcaster shenanigans.
Surveil 2 is also useful to dig a bit and reduce dead draws, whether it's more valuable than the 2/1 body will depend on the match I think, but being able to "flashback" Archive Traps makes it very interesting.
Edit: Mausoleum Secrets is worth testing if you're playing several creatures, since getting a surgical, a push, a brutality or crypt incursion at instant speed can be great, and may also make Darkness worth it as a 1 of, in a more toolbox approach.
I think it fits in as a replacement for Snapcaster, I'm gonna start with 2 of, but wouldn't be surprised to end up with 4 or even 6 (4 Briefing, 2 snappy probly) of these types of effects. Casting Archive Trap for 0 as flashback is huge.
I'm hoping they give us something like these:
UB
Deathtouch, Shroud
1/4
If ~this~ would deal damage to a creature or player, you may have it deal no damage and have an opponent exile the top 3 cards of their library instead.
also this would be nice too
U/B
Sorcery
Surveil 1
Each opponent puts the top 4 cards from their library into their graveyard
I'm interested to see the split card. Mill's biggest weakness I find is Leyline of Sanctity and Eldrazi effects, with the latter being really effing annoying, so I'm keen to see a toolbox card that maybe can deal with that.
rare split was a bust
eldrazi effects are not such a big problem now... we have surgical, leyline of the void or, if you want to be really inventive, old lazav...
LoS effect is still a big problem that i really want the mill card on this set to address.... in case we get one... sigh
BUT - with Assassin's Trophy being an amazing source of removal for any permanent AND giving an optional search trigger for our activating our Archive Traps, as well as Mission Briefing letting us rebuy all our mill spells (particularly ones milled via our own Mesmeric Orb) and a UU version of Archive Trap when Alternate Casting cost is active... this is probably worth exploring.
rough sketch of a list
4 Hedron Crab
Spells
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Archive Trap
4 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Mission Briefing
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
1 Crypt Incursion
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Enchantment
2 Search for Azcanta
Land
4 Field of Ruin
4 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Oboro Palace in the Clouds
In addition to the usual sideboard cards - other notable sideboard cards in green that would possibly be able to support now would include Nature's Claim for Leyline of Sanctity, Abrupt Decay for utility, and even some off the wall stuff like Pulse of Murasa vs burn, Melira, Sylvok Outcast vs infect, Golgari Charm, and adding green would make better use of Engineered Explosives as well
and if u guys are trying to mill with AT, as an ex-esper mill player, its not worth the splash... your deck gets way less consistent, and opponents wont go for the land most of the time... just go ub instead...
besides if we DO get a milling spell, it will be probably phrased as "each opponent", rendering the whole "LoS" issue mute
Right now I think Mill is at a decent place. I feel in most match-ups we have a pretty decent chance, but for me at least on MTGO it's the random Emrakul and Leylines that completely just blindside us. After Fraying Sanity and Field of Ruin were printed the deck got a pretty good boost in power so I feel that a couple of little mill-specific toolbox kits would be really great.
Very reasonable cost, it's extra ways of removing annoying cards (titans and such if they make a comeback), combo pieces without even milling them first, or their boarded answer to Bridge to lock them out!
I also like the black tutor a lot, and Mission Briefing as well. A lot of room for tinkering post GRN for UB mill I feel, and I do like how the deck's positioned currently.
BUT...
i was actually expecting a "glimpse" with "each opponent" attached,
that would largely solve the leyline problem, since we already have the tools to grind slowly(manic scribe, mesmeric orb) but we need the big spell to keep the pressure, since 8/10 times they would run us over when they have LoS on play
I'm thinking of:
-2 Brutality
-3 Ensnaring Bridge (Doesn't play nicely with control)
+3 Thought Scour (cantrip plus instant speed mill)
+2 Settle the Wreckage
-8 Creatures (crabs and scribes)
+7 Counterspells (right now thinking 3 Cryptic, 2 Logic Knot, 2 Negate but maybe Spell Snare for tempo?)
+1 Psychic Spiral (reach after mesmeric orbing my graveyard down. Instant speed!)
Straight (mostly) equivalent replacements
-4 Glimpse; +4 Mission Briefing
-2 Crypt Incursion; +2 Profane Memento (maybe Timely Reinforcements?)
-3 Push; +3 Path
-2 Damnation; +2 Supreme Verdict (but in the main instead of SB)
With 4 Field of Ruin and 4 Path, it should be easy enough to get them to search to activate Trap/Briefing. With field of ruin forced search, even when they don't fetch for Path we can still get them. I'm thinking 22 lands should be enough (instead of 25 like regular control uses) because we're not aiming to resolve a 5 mana Planeswalker with protection up to win the game. More just a bunch of 0 or 2 mana spells (Trap, Orb, Briefing) and then just slow them down enough to make the Orbs hurt them, with Traps being a big burn.
Anyway, I'm going to proxy up this UW list and try it tomorrow with my friends. Our meta includes Hardened Scales, Spirits, GB Eldrazi Rock, BW Tokens, UR Wizards, Burn, and UW Miracle Control. Notably no Humans (could be a bad matchup) and no Tron (UW struggles against them, but with Surgicals in my main board it's usually alright).
A few of us Mill hipsters feel the same way about UW mill being worth exploring, especially now with some new tools that the new set has brought us. But let's be honest here, you lose a lot of utility when you leave Black. White has its own interesting options, like Timely Reinforcements (which has been stellar for me) and a strong suite of sideboard cards, but can Mission Briefing be strong enough to ease the loss of Glimpse The Unthinkable, Crypt Incursion, Collective Brutality, Bontu's Last Reckoning, etc? That's a lot to ask. In my opinion, I believe it's a mistake to go all in on one mill spell (Archive Trap) and I've found that the deck needs Hedron Crab and Manic Scribe to diversify your "threats". I'm interested to hear your results of a more "controlling" shell, I haven't had much luck with it, but Mission Briefing may have given this style a little more game. At any rate, we have a thread discussing UW Mill in the Deck Creation section here:
UW Mill