Congrats on the result!
The main thing I think you should consider is some graveyard hate in the sideboard! We fill graveyards, so decks that benefit from that need to be kept in check somehow. Nihil Spellbomb is my favorite for UB Mill for the 0 cost crack and chance of a redraw. Tormod's crypt is fine with no redraw but no cost, Relic is not good for us since we drop a ton of cards for them, so exiling 1 at a time is useless, and you need to keep 1 mana open for it to be "safe".
Ravenous trap is the other choice, but again I don't like that it has a condition on it, the time will come when that hurts you. The instant speed can be a surprise and if you play Trapmaker snares you can fetch it, so I understand its appeal, but I prefer Spellbomb.
3 of those in the sideboard will make you Living End, Dredge, RB Hollow, Storm, etc... matchups a lot better. Even Jund, shrinking Tarmogoyfs is no joke.
Congrats on the result!
The main thing I think you should consider is some graveyard hate in the sideboard! We fill graveyards, so decks that benefit from that need to be kept in check somehow. Nihil Spellbomb is my favorite for UB Mill for the 0 cost crack and chance of a redraw.
Agreed. If I were to make any changes, that would be where I'd start. -3 Duress +3 Spellbomb. I'd also consider dropping 1 Mind Funeral for the 3rd Fraying Sanity
You should be running a minimum of 4 if not 5 or in extreme cases 6 graveyard hate cards in the sideboard as too many decks benefit from you filling their yard in some way. Living End (Jund or MonoU) should be near unwinnable for them and storm should be a decent matchup when you have the proper graveyard hate cards. Nihil Spellbomb and Grafdigger's Cage are the best options imo. I really don't like the Duress in the SB and you main some really weird choices if you had predicted UW to be a large presence there. I still think Manic Scribes is terrible, I would consider replacing them with Spellskite as they would be able to protect your bridges vs decks with artifact hate, primarily anything with Kolaghan's Command and are significantly better blockers/defenders and provide more value in pretty much every game state.
You should be running a minimum of 4 if not 5 or in extreme cases 6 graveyard hate cards in the sideboard as too many decks benefit from you filling their yard in some way. Living End (Jund or MonoU) should be near unwinnable for them and storm should be a decent matchup when you have the proper graveyard hate cards. Nihil Spellbomb and Grafdigger's Cage are the best options imo. I really don't like the Duress in the SB and you main some really weird choices if you had predicted UW to be a large presence there. I still think Manic Scribes is terrible, I would consider replacing them with Spellskite as they would be able to protect your bridges vs decks with artifact hate, primarily anything with Kolaghan's Command and are significantly better blockers/defenders and provide more value in pretty much every game state.
How does Spellskite provide more value in pretty much every game state when Manic Scribe mills 3-18 and Skite always 0 and Bridge isnt even a wincon to protect it.
You must not understand some of the simplest concepts of game theory to be asking that question. The idea behind running Spellskite is that it does a significantly better job than Manic Scribe in stifling or preventing your opponent from reaching their win condition(s) ( typically dropping your life total from 20 to <= 0) before you are able to reach your own of milling them out. If you would mill someone out on turn 6 with a Fraying Sanity + Mind Funeral that hits them for 30 cards total, it makes no difference if their library was at 29 cards or at 17. That means that there is effectively no difference between having played a Manic Scribe on turn 2, reaching delirium on turn 4, and milling an extra 12 cards before the Mind Funeral than had you played a vanilla 0/3. There is a big difference if you aren't able to get to turn 6 because your opponents clock is faster than your own and they did the required 20 damage before you got to cast your required mill cards.
Summary: Mill is too slow vs the fastest aggro decks so you need cards which are able to stifle them for at least a few turns to give yourself time to mill them out.
If only Magic the Gathering could be explained in a simple vaccuum like above
If only we have actually game reports on how mill keeps winning on T6, instead of pure theory crafting on a very strict line of play. The onus is on the person making such an outlandish claim to provide evidence that it works. Or else, this mill deck with spellskite is as good as the pirate stompy deck in legacy.
In other news, I'm testing 4x Cryptic Command in mill. Initial testing shows its either hit or miss. I will report back if I get in a number of reps this weekend.
You must not understand some of the simplest concepts of game theory to be asking that question. The idea behind running Spellskite is that it does a significantly better job than Manic Scribe in stifling or preventing your opponent from reaching their win condition(s) ( typically dropping your life total from 20 to <= 0) before you are able to reach your own of milling them out. If you would mill someone out on turn 6 with a Fraying Sanity + Mind Funeral that hits them for 30 cards total, it makes no difference if their library was at 29 cards or at 17. That means that there is effectively no difference between having played a Manic Scribe on turn 2, reaching delirium on turn 4, and milling an extra 12 cards before the Mind Funeral than had you played a vanilla 0/3. There is a big difference if you aren't able to get to turn 6 because your opponents clock is faster than your own and they did the required 20 damage before you got to cast your required mill cards.
Summary: Mill is too slow vs the fastest aggro decks so you need cards which are able to stifle them for at least a few turns to give yourself time to mill them out.
What you said described Spellskite as perfect addition to combo decks. Why dont people play it in every deck? Because you overestimate Skite. Gx Tron, Humans, Eldrazi Tron, Grixis DS, Affinity, WU Control, BR Hollow, Storm, Mardu Pyro, Traverse Shadow (10 out of 12 top decks by mtggoldfish) dont care about Skite substituting Scribe, they are happy you give them more time.
And sorry your crafted example proves nothing. I can easily craft one where 6 cards milled by Scribe made me win. I played Crab t1, but it didnt matter because I milled 26 last turn when my opponent only had 5 cards in library. Does it proves Crab bad? No
My list actually does exactly what you wrote in summary - how should one know I miss Skite in it?)
First of all I wouldn't even maindeck Spellskite, but having it is your 75 would still do more for your expected winrate compared to running Manic Scribe.
1. Gx Tron is not a difficult matchup with Field of Ruin and Surgical Extraction. If Karn Liberated resolves you can steal the target for the -3 ability rather than it hitting one of your lands or a Fraying Sanity
2. Humans are and will always be a terrible matchup as is any aggressive go wide deck, but Spellskite preforms significantly better than Scribe as a blocker due to being a 0/4 compared to a 0/3 when you factor in all of the exalted triggers as well as creatures getting +1/+1 counters from Champion of the Parish or Thalia's Lieutenant.
3. Against Eldrazi Tron Spellskite can block Matter Reshaper in perpetuity, Manic Scribe can chump for 1 turn.
4. GDS is not a difficult matchup. Not going to bother listing all the ways Spellskite outperforms Manic Scribe in this matchup.
5. Affinity you can steal the modular trigger from Arcbound Ravager and Spellskite is able to be used more effectively and for more turns than with Manic Scribe vs the non flying creatures and can actually block Etched Champion which Manic Scribe will never be able to do.
6. WU Control is generally not a difficult matchup. Can steal the trigger of Detention Sphere or Cryptic Command targeting your Fraying Sanity.
7. BR Hollow One, can absorb Lightning bolts and Collective Brutality that would be aimed at your Hedron Crab
8. Storm is not a difficult matchup with the proper graveyard hate.
9. Mardu Pyro can absorb Lightning bolts and Fatal Push or Collective Brutality that would be aimed at your Hedron Crab, Can actually effectively block a Bedlam Reveler without prowess.
10.Against Traverse Shadow can more effectively block every creature except Grim Flay, can take the hit from an Abrupt Decay aimed at your Fraying Sanity or Hedron Crab, can steal Temur Battle Rage or prevent it from being cast in the first place.
You should have been able to extrapolate from my example that when you would have been able to mill someone for 80+ cards before they deplete your life total to <= 0 that the "3 - 18" you milled with Manic Scribe becomes largely extraneous and had no effect at all on whether you won that game or not. Btw I'm not suggesting everyone runs Spellskite in any mill list, but if you are running Ensnaring Bridges and having them stay in play in a linchpin for your success, you might consider running Spellskite instead of Manic Scribe.
First when I wrote my answer I mentioned that not only Spellskite gives opponent more time, it gives them more targets for K Command. But then I deleted it because its a fringe case and there are fringe cases like you described when Spellskite does matter. I wanted to be objective. I dont see that in your posts, you just repeat that Skite > Scribe, you seem biased. Manic Scribe is a solid mill card that I believe mills 8-9 on average while providing a blocker. There is a motto in modern that decks should focus on winning rather then not losing, its there for a reason.
How much does Scribe actually mill is an unknown value so Im gonna test how much each card that I drew actually milled and share results.
I'd be surprised if Manic Scribe milled more than 6. Requiring delirium, 'not dying' to removal cards in a deck with only 4 other targets (crab), or blocking make it unlikely it will survive past 2 turns.
Manic Scribe regularly milled more than 6 in almost every game I played him. Some games he milled 6-9 and then got killed or I blocked with him to avoid lethal. Some games he milled 15+, but rarely was he a 3 and done.
People are probably not playing Manic Scribe correctly. He's not a great turn 2 play. On turn 2 you want to be playing Glimpse or Mesmeric Orb. People also probably don't plan their turn sequencing well by knowing they are going to play Manic Scribe in a couple turns, so choosing to mill yourself off a Hedron Crab trigger or tapping your excess lands EOT to get extra Mesmeric Orb triggers to feed your Manic Scribe so that when you do play it on turn 3 or 4, you get max use.
Another thing that people seem to be completely glossing over is that Manic Scribe (and Mesmeric Orb) get around cards that usually lock us out of being able to play our usual Mill strategy. Cards like Leyline of Sanctity and Blood Moon will wreck your mill equity but Manic Scribe and Mesmeric Orb will keep on working, progressing your game without you having to do any extra work.
What do the Masters of mill think of howling mine? It seems to me that it would both help us keep a full grip and shorten our opponents clock, even if only by a turn.
Mostly though, I'd be adding it to a more controlling build.
What do the Masters of mill think of howling mine? It seems to me that it would both help us keep a full grip and shorten our opponents clock, even if only by a turn.
Mostly though, I'd be adding it to a more controlling build.
Thoughts?
I think we can get our card advantage from Visions of Beyond, Howling Mine doesn't really do much for as.
You could build a different mill deck with Howling Mines, Dictates of Kruphix, Fevered visions, Jace TMS, Sphinx Tutelage, as well as some other cards that might abuse the fact that they have full hands (Exhaust and some of those opponent can't play spells this turn cards might be good).
The obvious downside is you are really dependent on having Tutelage out, and unless you find some other way of breaking all the extra draws, you're probably helping them more than it's worth it.
Do a search on "whenever" "draws" "card" on gatherer for more ideas
Surgical/Leyline of the Void have more flexibility than a card that helps us in only one matchup. Hopefully wizards will print more conditional sol lands with this card in print creating some new archtypes etc...
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The main thing I think you should consider is some graveyard hate in the sideboard! We fill graveyards, so decks that benefit from that need to be kept in check somehow. Nihil Spellbomb is my favorite for UB Mill for the 0 cost crack and chance of a redraw. Tormod's crypt is fine with no redraw but no cost, Relic is not good for us since we drop a ton of cards for them, so exiling 1 at a time is useless, and you need to keep 1 mana open for it to be "safe".
Ravenous trap is the other choice, but again I don't like that it has a condition on it, the time will come when that hurts you. The instant speed can be a surprise and if you play Trapmaker snares you can fetch it, so I understand its appeal, but I prefer Spellbomb.
3 of those in the sideboard will make you Living End, Dredge, RB Hollow, Storm, etc... matchups a lot better. Even Jund, shrinking Tarmogoyfs is no joke.
Agreed. If I were to make any changes, that would be where I'd start. -3 Duress +3 Spellbomb. I'd also consider dropping 1 Mind Funeral for the 3rd Fraying Sanity
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Summary: Mill is too slow vs the fastest aggro decks so you need cards which are able to stifle them for at least a few turns to give yourself time to mill them out.
If only we have actually game reports on how mill keeps winning on T6, instead of pure theory crafting on a very strict line of play. The onus is on the person making such an outlandish claim to provide evidence that it works. Or else, this mill deck with spellskite is as good as the pirate stompy deck in legacy.
In other news, I'm testing 4x Cryptic Command in mill. Initial testing shows its either hit or miss. I will report back if I get in a number of reps this weekend.
And sorry your crafted example proves nothing. I can easily craft one where 6 cards milled by Scribe made me win. I played Crab t1, but it didnt matter because I milled 26 last turn when my opponent only had 5 cards in library. Does it proves Crab bad? No
My list actually does exactly what you wrote in summary - how should one know I miss Skite in it?)
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
1. Gx Tron is not a difficult matchup with Field of Ruin and Surgical Extraction. If Karn Liberated resolves you can steal the target for the -3 ability rather than it hitting one of your lands or a Fraying Sanity
2. Humans are and will always be a terrible matchup as is any aggressive go wide deck, but Spellskite preforms significantly better than Scribe as a blocker due to being a 0/4 compared to a 0/3 when you factor in all of the exalted triggers as well as creatures getting +1/+1 counters from Champion of the Parish or Thalia's Lieutenant.
3. Against Eldrazi Tron Spellskite can block Matter Reshaper in perpetuity, Manic Scribe can chump for 1 turn.
4. GDS is not a difficult matchup. Not going to bother listing all the ways Spellskite outperforms Manic Scribe in this matchup.
5. Affinity you can steal the modular trigger from Arcbound Ravager and Spellskite is able to be used more effectively and for more turns than with Manic Scribe vs the non flying creatures and can actually block Etched Champion which Manic Scribe will never be able to do.
6. WU Control is generally not a difficult matchup. Can steal the trigger of Detention Sphere or Cryptic Command targeting your Fraying Sanity.
7. BR Hollow One, can absorb Lightning bolts and Collective Brutality that would be aimed at your Hedron Crab
8. Storm is not a difficult matchup with the proper graveyard hate.
9. Mardu Pyro can absorb Lightning bolts and Fatal Push or Collective Brutality that would be aimed at your Hedron Crab, Can actually effectively block a Bedlam Reveler without prowess.
10.Against Traverse Shadow can more effectively block every creature except Grim Flay, can take the hit from an Abrupt Decay aimed at your Fraying Sanity or Hedron Crab, can steal Temur Battle Rage or prevent it from being cast in the first place.
You should have been able to extrapolate from my example that when you would have been able to mill someone for 80+ cards before they deplete your life total to <= 0 that the "3 - 18" you milled with Manic Scribe becomes largely extraneous and had no effect at all on whether you won that game or not. Btw I'm not suggesting everyone runs Spellskite in any mill list, but if you are running Ensnaring Bridges and having them stay in play in a linchpin for your success, you might consider running Spellskite instead of Manic Scribe.
How much does Scribe actually mill is an unknown value so Im gonna test how much each card that I drew actually milled and share results.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
People are probably not playing Manic Scribe correctly. He's not a great turn 2 play. On turn 2 you want to be playing Glimpse or Mesmeric Orb. People also probably don't plan their turn sequencing well by knowing they are going to play Manic Scribe in a couple turns, so choosing to mill yourself off a Hedron Crab trigger or tapping your excess lands EOT to get extra Mesmeric Orb triggers to feed your Manic Scribe so that when you do play it on turn 3 or 4, you get max use.
Another thing that people seem to be completely glossing over is that Manic Scribe (and Mesmeric Orb) get around cards that usually lock us out of being able to play our usual Mill strategy. Cards like Leyline of Sanctity and Blood Moon will wreck your mill equity but Manic Scribe and Mesmeric Orb will keep on working, progressing your game without you having to do any extra work.
Mostly though, I'd be adding it to a more controlling build.
Thoughts?
I think we can get our card advantage from Visions of Beyond, Howling Mine doesn't really do much for as.
You could build a different mill deck with Howling Mines, Dictates of Kruphix, Fevered visions, Jace TMS, Sphinx Tutelage, as well as some other cards that might abuse the fact that they have full hands (Exhaust and some of those opponent can't play spells this turn cards might be good).
The obvious downside is you are really dependent on having Tutelage out, and unless you find some other way of breaking all the extra draws, you're probably helping them more than it's worth it.
Do a search on "whenever" "draws" "card" on gatherer for more ideas
What's the consensus of Dampening Sphere for Mill? Do we need the help against Storm? (Mill pretty much rolls Tron.)